On 12-27-2012 00:41, mike wrote:
On 12/26/2012 9:03 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
How is there going to be any smoke in the chimney of a fireplace that is
not in use? And how can what happens when you open a damper prove that
closing the damper may be dangerous?

There's been a lot of conjecture and snippage in this thread.
Suggest you go back to the beginning and read it all.

I read it all. He said "unused fireplaces" and was warned "don't close
them"

I suggested that while closing the damper in an unused fireplace might
not be ideal, it is certainly not dangerous.

You countered by suggesting that _opening_ a damper might cause smoke to
be sucked into the house.

I suggested that you won't find much smoke in an unused fireplace,
and that if there were smoke there, _opening_ a damper would not
cause the undefined hazard warned about from _closing_ it.

Whereupon you suggested I read the whole thread and repeated the same
nonsequitur.


--
Wes Groleau

A bureaucrat is someone who cuts red tape lengthwise.

On 12/26/2012 10:02 PM, Jim wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:

Damper opened if pilot on,
and yes, it does waste some energy.

I googled for "how much energy does a pilot light waste" and found
the Strait Dope article which said it was 15 cents to 30 cents a day:
"How much per day does it cost to run pilot lights?"
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...ad.php?t=67954

This article said $10 a month for the pilot flame:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...523314242.html

Yet, Wikipedia says half the energy used is wasted through the pilot
flame:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_light

Doesn't add up ...



The number I remember was $9/month savings when I turned off the pilot
in summer.
But I don't have records back that far to verify.
I bought an electric spark igniter at a garage sale, but didn't know
what I was doing and feared burning down the house. Never installed it.

New furnace has an electric igniter.

dpb wrote:

it's not a pilot light if it isn't lit.
And, to cut down on that usage as energy costs have gone up is why the
switch to piezo-electric starters instead of pilots...

I'm confused why my gas burner has BOTH the pilot light and the
piezo-electric starter.

The piezo-electric snapper simply starts the pilot light.

So why do I need the pilot light if I have the snapper?

On 12/27/2012 12:45 AM, Jim wrote:
dpb wrote:

it's not a pilot light if it isn't lit.
And, to cut down on that usage as energy costs have gone up is why the
switch to piezo-electric starters instead of pilots...

I'm confused why my gas burner has BOTH the pilot light and the
piezo-electric starter.

The piezo-electric snapper simply starts the pilot light.

So why do I need the pilot light if I have the snapper?


The pilot light heats a thermocouple which produces electric current to
operate the gas valve. If the pilot goes out, the gas valve will not
operate. Some pilots also operate as an oxygen sensor, when O2 levels
drop, the pilot flame shrinks and no longer heats the thermocouple thus
the gas valve closes. My wall mounted unventilated gas heater has a
piezoelectric igniter for the oxygen sensing pilot light. The pilot must
heat the thermocouple enough to produce electric current before the gas
valve can be turned on. If the pilot goes out, the gas to the
burners shuts off regardless of the position of the control. ^_^

http://www.repair.com/c/water-heater...lot-light.html

TDD

William Don**ly wrote:

hr(bob) wrote:

yes, it does waste some energy.

This physics site says it costs about $200/year for a pilot light.
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/...ghts-are-evil/

Not a proper scientific test though - he did not tourn off all the pilots
and do another timed meter reading. Maybe he has a leak somewhere ventilated
and not noticeable and is ****ig gas everywhere? ;-

Oh - and whilst the UK uses kWh too, it's not the SI unit for energy.

Good memories though, of when the UK uses to have cuFt gas meters and bill
by the therm (the wholesale market still does).

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

mike wrote:

And one could argue that at least some of the heat from an inside pilot
ends up in the living space.

I had not thought of that!

The Daring Dufas wrote:

The pilot light heats a thermocouple which produces electric
current to operate the gas valve.

Ah. That must be why the pilot light kept going out in the beginning,
when I let up on the pressing of the knob.

Then, after a few minutes with the butane lighter, the pilot light
stayed lit after I let up on pressing the knob.

The thermocouple must've heated up by then!

On 12/27/2012 4:45 AM, Jim wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

The pilot light heats a thermocouple which produces electric
current to operate the gas valve.

Ah. That must be why the pilot light kept going out in the beginning,
when I let up on the pressing of the knob.

Then, after a few minutes with the butane lighter, the pilot light
stayed lit after I let up on pressing the knob.

The thermocouple must've heated up by then!


You got it! In the case of oxygen sensing pilot lights, the flame shoots
out at more of an angle to heat the thermocouple. When oxygen levels
drop too low, the flame bends away from the thermocouple and can no
longer heat it, the thermocouple cools and the gas shuts off. ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote in news:kbgf95$5jn$1@dont-
email.me:

I was working on a commercial refrigeration unit one time and found a
short circuit caused by a mouse that had crawled through an open conduit
knock out hole in the compressor's electrical junction box. The mouse
had an electrifying experience. ^_^

What a shocking story.

Jim wrote in :

Once I warm up to the idea of keeping the pilot flame lit
all the time, then it becomes obvious why you'd want the
damper to be locked open all the time.

Pfui. The pilot does NOT produce anywhere nearly enough carbon monoxide to present any
kind of problem. There is NO need to vent a pilot light.

On 12/27/2012 4:45 AM, Jim wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

The pilot light heats a thermocouple which produces electric
current to operate the gas valve.

Ah. That must be why the pilot light kept going out in the beginning,
when I let up on the pressing of the knob.

Then, after a few minutes with the butane lighter, the pilot light
stayed lit after I let up on pressing the knob.

The thermocouple must've heated up by then!

Precisely...

I posted not long ago about a small heater in the well house here...it
is a _very_ old heater (re-purposed WW II vintage bathroom heater from
house pre-central heat installation) and had a "wild" pilot that was
common (essentially universal) in those days. In those the pilot was
simply a small bypass line but there was no TC and no safety valve; if
the pilot went out it just went out and if (no, when) the temperature
dropped and demand signal came, the valve would open. If untended,
Indianapolis could be the result.

From that, it's clear why the new way is better. Last spring I
replaced the pilot assembly and control valve on this heater w/ a new
pilot assembly w/ the TC adaptor and one of them new-fangled control
valves...it has proved beneficial once this winter already as the pilot
blew out on a very windy day once already.

It did, however, go for 40-some years out there (the well house was
built around the "new" well in the late 50s/early 60s) though...

--

On 12/27/2012 9:51 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2012 4:45 AM, Jim wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

The pilot light heats a thermocouple which produces electric
current to operate the gas valve.

Ah. That must be why the pilot light kept going out in the beginning,
when I let up on the pressing of the knob.

Then, after a few minutes with the butane lighter, the pilot light
stayed lit after I let up on pressing the knob.

The thermocouple must've heated up by then!

Precisely...

I posted not long ago about a small heater in the well house here...it
is a _very_ old heater (re-purposed WW II vintage bathroom heater from
house pre-central heat installation) and had a "wild" pilot that was
common (essentially universal) in those days. In those the pilot was
simply a small bypass line but there was no TC and no safety valve; if
the pilot went out it just went out and if (no, when) the temperature
dropped and demand signal came, the valve would open. If untended,
Indianapolis could be the result.

From that, it's clear why the new way is better. Last spring I
replaced the pilot assembly and control valve on this heater w/ a new
pilot assembly w/ the TC adaptor and one of them new-fangled control
valves...it has proved beneficial once this winter already as the pilot
blew out on a very windy day once already.

It did, however, go for 40-some years out there (the well house was
built around the "new" well in the late 50s/early 60s) though...

--


It appears that your pump house heater would be a good candidate for an
automatic pilot light reigniter. ^_^

TDD

On 12/27/2012 9:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
....

It appears that your pump house heater would be a good candidate for an
automatic pilot light reigniter. ^_^

It has one...

And it needs activation to check at the moment...

--

On 12/27/2012 11:46 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2012 9:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
...

It appears that your pump house heater would be a good candidate for an
automatic pilot light reigniter. ^_^

It has one...

And it needs activation to check at the moment...

--


Is it one of these? ^_^

http://hdsupplysolutions.com/shop/pr...ght_kit-223280

http://preview.tinyurl.com/bndq8b7

TDD

On 12/27/2012 12:14 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/27/2012 11:46 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2012 9:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
...

It appears that your pump house heater would be a good candidate for an
automatic pilot light reigniter. ^_^

It has one...

....

Is it one of these? ^_^

http://hdsupplysolutions.com/shop/pr...ght_kit-223280

http://preview.tinyurl.com/bndq8b7
....

Cute. Hadn't seen one of them before, actually...if it were more
inaccessible location wouldn't be a bad idea.

The one that _is_ installed just came back from checking and all was
well...

--

On 12/27/2012 1:39 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2012 12:14 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/27/2012 11:46 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2012 9:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
...

It appears that your pump house heater would be a good candidate for an
automatic pilot light reigniter. ^_^

It has one...

...

Is it one of these? ^_^

http://hdsupplysolutions.com/shop/pr...ght_kit-223280


http://preview.tinyurl.com/bndq8b7
...

Cute. Hadn't seen one of them before, actually...if it were more
inaccessible location wouldn't be a bad idea.

The one that _is_ installed just came back from checking and all was
well...

--

I've installed the non-walking/talking units on various gas burning
equipment that had a problem with errant drafts blowing the pilot out.
There are even 12vdc automatic reigniters for RV equipment. ^_^

TDD

On 12/27/2012 3:03 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/27/2012 1:39 PM, dpb wrote:
....

The one that _is_ installed just came back from checking and all was
well...
....

I've installed the non-walking/talking units on various gas burning
equipment that had a problem with errant drafts blowing the pilot out.
There are even 12vdc automatic reigniters for RV equipment. ^_^

Out of curiosity, what triggers their action--they have to be quick
enough the TC doesn't go cold, obviously, and the valve closes
automagically.

--

On 12/27/2012 3:16 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2012 3:03 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/27/2012 1:39 PM, dpb wrote:
...

The one that _is_ installed just came back from checking and all was
well...
...

I've installed the non-walking/talking units on various gas burning
equipment that had a problem with errant drafts blowing the pilot out.
There are even 12vdc automatic reigniters for RV equipment. ^_^

Out of curiosity, what triggers their action--they have to be quick
enough the TC doesn't go cold, obviously, and the valve closes
automagically.

--


If you see the white ceramic insulated probe/electrode in the picture,
not only does it produce a spark to ground but it acts as a flame sense
probe for the electronics in the unit which detects the electrical
conductivity of the pilot flame. Some devices have a separate sensor
probe but the Robertshaw unit utilizes a single electrode. ^_^

TDD

On Dec 25, 8:20*pm, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 12/25/2012 3:00 PM, Doug Miller wrote:



*wrote :

Why would anyone C clamp all the fireplace flues open?

Those are dampers, not flues. The flue is the passageway for the exhaust gases to leave
the house. The mechanism that opens and closes it is the damper.

Possibly due to a knuckleheaded family member who lights fires without checking the
damper first. Or possibly due to laziness -- easier to just keep it open all the time, especially
if the fireplace is used frequently.

Another possibility is that the house is tight enough that an open damper in a fireplace *not*
in use is necessary to supply sufficient combustion air to one that *is* in use -- could be that
none of them will draw properly unless there's at least one more open damper somewhere.

Should I just remove the clamps?

At least, remove them long enough to find out if the dampers operate properly, and the
fireplaces will draw properly with the unused one(s) closed. If they do, and if *you can
remember to check them before lighting a fire, there's no reason to keep them all open if the
fireplaces draw properly otherwise.

A house we own in Redmond, Oregon has a big stone fireplace with glass
doors in the front. The year we moved there we had a big fire in the
fireplace during a winter storm. About 5 degrees, snowing hard and big
wind from the South. One big gust of wind blew open the glass doors and
slammed shut the damper. Guess where the smoke and flames went? We were
in the room and I quickly grabbed a stick of firewood and got the damper
open and doors closed.

Got a piece of wire and managed to wire the damper open.

Later I fabricated a stainless steel latch on the damper handle to hold
it either open or closed. No further problems. The heavy wooden mantle
showed signs that this had happened before.

In my experience, dampers should ALWAYS have some positive
latching/locking mechanism.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You asked: "Guess where the smoke and flames went?"

Here's my story:

A friend of mine moved into a renovated farmhouse. Most of the first
floor was a huge living room/dining room combination. In the living
room area they had a large fireplace. In the dining room area they had
a coal buring stove. They moved in during the fall and the coal buring
stove had been doing a great job of heating the downstairs, although
thay had to feed it 3 times a day to keep it going.

We went over their house for their first Christmas party, which was
also the first time they built a roaring blaze in the open fireplace.
As we were sitting watching the fire, we noticed it getting colder and
colder in the house. My friend went over to the coal stove and noticed
that the temperature had dropped dramatically.

In an effort to see what was going on, he open the door to the stove.
Guess where the massive amount of coal dust went?

As it turned out, the fireplace was drawing air down the coal stove
flue and putting out the coal. When he opened the door to the coal
stove, the draft blew the dust all over him, all over the dining room
area and half way out into the living room. 3 or 4 people were
basically covered with soot. My friend looked like an old time actor
wearing blackface. It's a good thing he was wearing glasses, although
when he took them off he looked even funnier.

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:5f81a820-808f-4f60-b972-
:

A friend of mine moved into a renovated farmhouse. Most of the first
floor was a huge living room/dining room combination. In the living
room area they had a large fireplace. In the dining room area they had
a coal buring stove. They moved in during the fall and the coal buring
stove had been doing a great job of heating the downstairs, although
thay had to feed it 3 times a day to keep it going.

We went over their house for their first Christmas party, which was
also the first time they built a roaring blaze in the open fireplace.
As we were sitting watching the fire, we noticed it getting colder and
colder in the house. My friend went over to the coal stove and noticed
that the temperature had dropped dramatically.

In an effort to see what was going on, he open the door to the stove.
Guess where the massive amount of coal dust went?

As it turned out, the fireplace was drawing air down the coal stove
flue and putting out the coal. When he opened the door to the coal
stove, the draft blew the dust all over him, all over the dining room
area and half way out into the living room. 3 or 4 people were
basically covered with soot. My friend looked like an old time actor
wearing blackface. It's a good thing he was wearing glasses, although
when he took them off he looked even funnier.

Damn good thing the fire in the coal stove was out before that coal dust got dispersed --
otherwise there could (would?) have been a massive explosion.

On 12/27/2012 4:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
....

Damn good thing the fire in the coal stove was out before that coal dust got dispersed --
otherwise there could (would?) have been a massive explosion.

It wouldn't have been unburnt pulverized coal but ash/soot...

But the likelihood of a coal dust explosion in an unconstrained volume
such as that even w/ pulverized coal would be near zero. Like other
situations (grain dust, wood chips, etc.) there's a fairly narrow range
that will allow such to happen. (Spent many years working w/ pulverized
coal in power plants developing online instrumentation systems to
measure the mass flow rate of PC in individual burner pipes from the
pulverizer outlets to aid in balancing and thereby lower NOx and raise
efficiency).

--

On 12-27-2012 05:45, Jim wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
The pilot light heats a thermocouple which produces electric
current to operate the gas valve.

Ah. That must be why the pilot light kept going out in the beginning,
when I let up on the pressing of the knob.

It's also why the instructions say to hold it for sixty seconds after
lighting.

I once had two elderly ladies ask me to look at their ancient gravity
feed furnace. I didn't know that furnaces had thermocouples but I knew
what they were, so I figured out that's what it was and why it was
there, and that the reason the furnace only quit while they were on a
long trip was that the pilot alone couldn't heat the umpty-year-old
thing enough unless the furnace came on often enough to keep the TC from
getting cold.

But I had no clue where to buy one that would fit, so I told them to
never set it lower than 68°F and built for them an emergency starter
(with a flashlight battery) in case they forgot.


--
Wes Groleau

He that complies against his will is of the same opinion still.
€” Samuel Butler, 1612-1680

Doug Miller wrote:

There is NO need to vent a pilot light.

I'm in agreement. You don't vent the Menora.

But why then does California code require disabling the damper
when wood fireplaces are retrofitted to gas?

William Don**ly wrote in news:kbkrks$vuu$4
@news.albasani.net:

Doug Miller wrote:

There is NO need to vent a pilot light.

I'm in agreement. You don't vent the Menora.

But why then does California code require disabling the damper
when wood fireplaces are retrofitted to gas?

Beats me. Why does California do 90% of the goofy stuff it does?

On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:37:10 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

William Don**ly wrote in news:kbkrks$vuu$4
:

Doug Miller wrote:

There is NO need to vent a pilot light.

I'm in agreement. You don't vent the Menora.

But why then does California code require disabling the damper
when wood fireplaces are retrofitted to gas?

Beats me. Why does California do 90% of the goofy stuff it does?

Because California *is* ****in' goofy?

wrote in :

On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:37:10 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

William Don**ly wrote in news:kbkrks$vuu$4
:

Doug Miller wrote:

There is NO need to vent a pilot light.

I'm in agreement. You don't vent the Menora.

But why then does California code require disabling the damper
when wood fireplaces are retrofitted to gas?

Beats me. Why does California do 90% of the goofy stuff it does?

Because California *is* ****in' goofy?

Reminds me of an old joke. Mickey Mouse has consulted a divorce lawyer.
Lawyer: Let me get this straight: you want to divorce your wife Minnie --
Mickey squeaky voice: Yes, that's right!
Lawyer: -- because she's crazy.
Mickey: I didn't say she was crazy. I said she was ****in' Goofy!

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 01:09:01 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 21:37:10 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

William Don**ly wrote in news:kbkrks$vuu$4
:

Doug Miller wrote:

There is NO need to vent a pilot light.

I'm in agreement. You don't vent the Menora.

But why then does California code require disabling the damper
when wood fireplaces are retrofitted to gas?

Beats me. Why does California do 90% of the goofy stuff it does?

Because California *is* ****in' goofy?

Reminds me of an old joke. Mickey Mouse has consulted a divorce lawyer.
Lawyer: Let me get this straight: you want to divorce your wife Minnie --
Mickey squeaky voice: Yes, that's right!
Lawyer: -- because she's crazy.
Mickey: I didn't say she was crazy. I said she was ****in' Goofy!

That was the reference! ;-)

On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 2:22:00 PM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
I asked in the old thread a few days ago, but nobody saw it so I'm

reposting this question.



Why would anyone C clamp open all the fireplace flues?



When I tried to open the flue before lighting the fire, I noticed that

the handle to open and close the flue didn't move. It was stuck in place.

http://imageshack.us/a/img809/3208/f...lighting52.jpg



I didn't realize there was a special C clamp on the flue plate until

I went to the other fireplace, which looks like it has never been used.

http://imageshack.us/a/img577/3785/f...lighting67.jpg



There, I saw the same strange C clamp only without the black soot:

http://imageshack.us/a/img560/2425/f...lighting68.jpg



Why would anyone C clamp all the fireplace flues open?

Should I just remove the clamps?

The reason the clamps are there is due to the fact that somebody could start a fire with a ceramic firelog set in there, and the gas(es) would cause carbon monoxide poisoning. The are code now in many places for that reason. If you are not using a gas fire, you would know that the flue was closed due to the smoke.........So, how you use the fireplace determines the actual need.

replying to gonjah , steveg wrote:
jthread wrote:

Mine has little clamps that come with them. I figured it was to make
sure they stayed open so you don't kill anyone.



The fireplace damper needs to have a clamp on it so it will NOT close all
the way and jeapordize lives due to people commonly leaving the damper
shut and running their gas logs. Carbon monoxide is very deadly. In
California you cannot sell a house without a clamp on your damper to keep
it open some.

--