Three arrests have been made in the Indy gas explosion.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Dec 21, 12:46*pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
* *Three arrests have been made in the Indy gas explosion.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

Yes, I heard that too. I remember some of the resident
experts here telling us how it was virtually impossible to
prove arson. They still have a ways to go to prove it,
but obviously they believe they have a case.....

Kurt Ullman wrote in news:Wd-dnS4eNujuPUnNnZ2dnUVZ_t-
:

Three arrests have been made in the Indy gas explosion.

Thanks for the heads-up, Kurt. You may remember that I live in Indy as well. I've been following
this from the beginning, but haven't had a radio on all day today.

I remember predicting to my wife, the day the homicide investigation was opened, that it would
culminate in the arrests of "ex-wife, boyfriend, and boyfriend's buddy who actually did the
deed". So the real only surprise to me here is that the third person arrested turns out to be
boyfriend's *brother* instead.

wrote in message news:55795b81-06d6-4b9c-8f39-
On Dec 21, 12:46 pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:

Three arrests have been made in the Indy gas explosion.

Yes, I heard that too. I remember some of the resident experts here
telling us how it was
virtually impossible to prove arson. They still have a ways to go to
prove it, but obviously
they believe they have a case.

You're fond of stuffing words that people never said into their mouths just
so you can feel superior. I would have never said "virtually impossible."
That's a very high legal standard of proof. I would have noticed if anyone
else had. I said:

dad was a forensic engineer who testified in a number of fire cases.
From that experience I can safely conclude that such cases are hard to make
and These cases are hard to prove (beyond appeal) because it's rare
they can find a witness or a CCTV recording showing the defendant setting
the fire.

Today's jurors demand CSI levels of proof to convict because they are
suspicious of government and the criminal justice system. Fire degrades DNA
evidence severely. It's an important factor in making a link between the
alleged arsonist and the remaining physical evidence like an ignition
source, timer, etc. In addition to heat destruction, physical evidence has
usually been contaminated by firefighters making it easy for a defense
lawyer to challenge.

(Kurt, evidence contamination is a *very* important point in capital arson
cases although I seem to recall you doubting that. Firemen often pour
chemical foam on the evidence and tend to tramp it from room to room on
their boots. High pressure water streams move things around as well. What
DA's call the "CSI Effect" has led to people on juries to demand a very high
level of proof, especially when asked to apply the death sentence - except,
apparently, in Texas grin ).

Chet, I think you're very much mistaken when you claim someone here said it
was "virtually impossible" to prove an arson case. No intelligent person
would make such a claim.

Can't you get ANYTHING right? (-:

Obviously arson cases are won all the time.

An arrest in this case was a relatively long time coming - over 30 days -
and that's usually a sign of no single smoking gun, at least until recently.
Cops and DA's don't like to let murderers roam around free if they've got
overwhelming evidence of guilt. That's very rare in arson cases, but
getting less rare because of CCTV. We both know an arrest is a long, long
way from a conviction that's sustained on appeal. I also said these cases
are often proved by not by physical evidence, but by skillful interrogation
that leads to a confession. That's still true. "Often proved" certainly
isn't compatible with your erroneous claim of "virtually impossible."

I wouldn't be surprised to learn the delay was caused by a court-ordered
wiretap in which the defendants implicated themselves. That's how these
cases are made. They take seriouis investigatory resources. This will be
at least a $1M investigation in man-hours, lab costs, etc. A team of
detectives has probably been working the case non-stop since its inception.
I'll bet the suspects got a small, "starter" payout from the insurers
working with investigators so they could buy drugs and booze and brag about
their score among themselves on hidden video or cellphones.

Once again, Chet, you need to educate yourself because anyone with any
experience in the criminal court system knows what I've said is true:
"Arson cases are often difficult to prove." At least they are a lot harder
to prove than proving your favorite tactic is to put word's in people's
mouths to "enbiggen" (sic) yourself. (-:

Run the search and see for yourself what I've been saying all along:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Arson...icult+to+prove

Here's the first page of results:

a.. Arson difficult to prove | CJOnline.com
cjonline.com/news/local/2009-05-15/arson_difficult_to_prove - Cached -
Similar
May 14, 2009 ... "The Topeka Fire Department invests a lot of resources (to
arson investigations),"
Loomis said. "But often, they are hard cases to prove." ...

a.. Arson Prosecution: Issues and Strategies - U.S. Fire Administration ...
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/p...ons/fa-078.pdf
Many prosecutors believe that arson cases are heavily circumstantial and
very
hard ... Moreover, the incendiary origin of the fire is often difficult to
prove. Arson
is ...

a.. Arson Cases Tough to Prove, Even Tougher to Prosecute - Los ...
articles.latimes.com/2003/nov/02/local/me-firearson2 - Cached - Similar
Nov 2, 2003 ... Arson Cases Tough to Prove, Even Tougher to Prosecute ...
With witnesses and forensic evidence hard to come by, investigators face a
.... As a result, it's often
easier to identify suspects in structural arsons than in brush fires.

a.. Arson Cases Difficult To Prove | NBC 4i
www2.nbc4i.com/news/.../arson-cases-difficult-prove-ar-265291/ - Cached
Oct 19, 2010 ... Arson Cases Difficult To Prove ... The reason: evidence is
burned up, they often happen in the dead of night with no witnesses, and
harder still ...

a.. Anatomy of an Arson Case - interFIRE, A site dedicated to improving ...
www.interfire.org/res_file/arsnanat.asp - Cached - Similar
Arson cases are the least often, least effectively prosecuted criminal
offenses in
America. ... of the criminal justice system to prove a case where the public
outcry
mandates ... The defendant was in financial difficulty and had fallen behind
on his ...

?Why is the picture of arson ... - ?The Anatomy of the Crime of Arson
a..
a.. In arson cases, 'smoking gun' is often elusive
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index....tories/...shuf... - Cached
Jun 13, 2003 ... In arson cases, 'smoking gun' is often elusive ... "Arson
is the most difficult crime to solve -- no doubt about it," said Lt. Jack
Oakley, ... The arson investigator must
be able to prove a fire was deliberately set "to the exclusion of ...

a.. PROVING FINANCIAL MOTIVE IN ARSON CASES
www.pimall.com/nais/n.arson.html - Cached - Similar
Arson is one of the most difficult criminal cases to prove in a court of law
because
.... Those persons who have conducted business with the accused often have a
....
a.. Arson Prosecution: Issues and Strategies - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?id=CQHPun__bpoC
US Fire Administration - ?1988 - 46 pages
Many arson cases do rely on circumstantial evidence and involve technical
issues of fire ... Moreover, the incendiary origin of the fire is often
difficult to prove.
a.. Arson & Malicious Destruction of Property | Mahoney Criminal ...
http://www.relentlessdefense.com/......n-of-property/ -
Cached
"Solving" a suspected case of arson is inherently difficult because the
fire, as well
as the ... Because arson cases are often built on conjecture rather than
solid
proof, ... The Commonwealth must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that: 1)
the ...

a.. Arson - New World Encyclopedia
www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Arson - Cached - Similar
Nov 7, 2012 ... Investigating and proving arson as a cause of fire is a
difficult process, ...
Reduction in the number of cases of arson is not to be achieved by changes
....
Often, arson fires started by juveniles are trivialized, particularly
because ...

a.. Proof of the Corpus Delicti in Arson Cases - JStor
www.jstor.org/stable/1140131 - Similar
However, it is often very difficult to find evidence of ... senting an arson
case, see
Cohen, Convicting the. Arsonist .... proving the corpus delicti of arson
should be ...

a.. Arson is difficult to solve and harder to stop - Bonney Lake-Sumner ...
www.blscourierherald.com/news/44090647.html - Cached
Apr 30, 2009 ... Six arson cases were reported in Bonney lake during 2003,
.... It's often times
difficult to piece together, difficult to prove and difficult to get ...

a.. Criminal Investigation - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?isbn=1435469933
Kären M. Hess, Christine Hess Orthmann - ?2009 - 725 pages
Arson is difficult to prove because in many fires the evidence is consumed
and ...
extensive training in investigating arson, and they are often confused by
the ...
Because arson cases are hard to prove and require a great deal of work, they
are ...
a..
a.. The Risks and Rewards of an Arson Defense in Fire and Explosion ...
http://www.dri.org/dri/course-materi...3-09-McCoy.pdf -
Cached
The origin and cause analysis of these cases often addresses the possibility
of
an arson defense. ..... The element of opportunity can be difficult to prove
as well.

a.. Proving murder in case of wildfire arson difficult | Carbon Monoxide ...
carbonmonoxide-poisoning.com/.../proving-murder-in-case-of-wildfire-arson-di
fficult.html - Cached
Feb 14, 2009 ... Proving murder in case of wildfire arson difficult ...
major complication is that
wildfires often merge, making it difficult to link an arson fire with the
....

a.. Report on the Firefighter Arson Problem: - National Volunteer Fire ...
http://www.nvfc.org/files/documents/...port_FINAL.pdf - Cached
Data collection is crucial when investigating an arson case, ... may prove
to be
valuable. Prompt ...... legal proof in arson cases is often difficult, many
cases are ...

a.. Arson and Fire Investigation
http://www.cengagesites.com/academic...edchapter4.pdf -
Cached
Think Critically 1. What does it mean that the "jury decided that there was
reasonable doubt"? 2. Why is it often very difficult to prove arson cases?
Figure 4-
21.

a.. Arson - Will County State's Attorney's Office
www.willcountysao.com/specialized-arson_unit.htm - Cached
Although these cases are often difficult to prove, the Unit is nevertheless
dedicated to pursuing charges against those who violate the arson laws, in
the
hope ...

a.. Making a Case for Effective Scheduling of Arson Investigators
www.usfa.fema.gov/pdf/efop/efo29009.pdf
The crime of arson is often regarded as being among the most difficult
crimes to
prove. This is due ... only fifteen percent (15%) of arson cases result in
an arrest.

a.. The Defense of a Criminal Arson Case
ezinearticles.com/?The-Defense-of-a-Criminal-Arson-Case&id... - Cached
Jun 1, 2011 ... This is particularly important in large arson cases
involving significant destruction
of property. ... to present a persuasive, though often incorrect, case for
conviction.
.... As we all know, it is very difficult to prove a negative.

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Get a grip, Chet. Read the literature, 'edumacate' yourself and then get
back to us. Or at least find the message where anyone used the words
"virtually impossible" except you, right now, trying to make someone look
bad but sadly making yourself look (fill in the blank). I would have
noticed and commented on that claim the moment I saw it because it's just
not true.

"Difficult" and "virtually impossible" are two *very* different concepts in
the law. Now you know! You can *legitimately* feel smarter than when you
started. What's that condescending phrase you use? Capiche? (-:

--
Bobby G.

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
Three arrests have been made in the Indy gas explosion.
--

TY. From the beginning, I said I would await the findings of the
investigation before making any conclusions.

Steve