In a thread that I started on 12/03/2012 (with the subject line "Main Water
Supply Line freeze protection"), I wrote about an empty "shell" home that I
own that recently had all of the copper pipes stolen by thieves. The
property has a full basement (with high ceilings and a ground level walk-out
in the back), and 3 floors above that. The entire house is completely empty
and gutted throughout. All that is left is the exterior walls (which are
masonry/stone), and the floors and stairs. All that is left of the interior
walls and ceilings is the open framing. None of the interior walls are
load-bearing, so all of the wall framing that is left can easily be removed
without creating any problems. Nearly all of the wiring is gone (it was knob
and tube anyway) except for a new main service panel in the basement and a
couple of circuits for the heater, an outlet or two, and a temporary
lighting circuit for the basement. All of the kitchen and bathroom fixtures
and plumbing are already gone (all of that was already gone before the
theft).

So, it is now essentially a blank slate -- meaning that I can design all of
the rooms and future layout however I want it to be, but taking into account
where the stairs are located and where the exterior doors and windows are
located. The first floor and second floor have full-height ceilings
throughout. The third floor is large, but it has some sloped ceilings due
to the roof above. And, I should add that the plan includes that all of the
exterior walls will be framed out on the inside of the building and
insulated since the exterior walls are just masonry/stone right now. And,
of course, all new frame-out windows will be put in since all of the
interior window trim was already removed in anticipation of that.

The house has (or, should I say, "had") hot water cast iron radiator heat.
All of the cast iron radiators are still in place, with any iron piping that
goes to the radiators still there. The gas boiler for the cast iron heating
system is only a few years old (I had it put in when I bought the place and
converted from oil to gas heat). There is no central air conditioning.

My decision now is:

1) Do I design the whole new house layout based on using the existing gas
boiler and keep the hot water cast iron heating system (which would mean
running new copper lines to the radiators)?; or,

2) Should I just take out the existing gas boiler and start over with a
gas-fired forced air central HVAC system?

I don't know the cost of installing a whole new central HVAC system
including all of the duct work throughout the whole house. And, I am
wondering if a central HVAC system will have any issues pumping enough air
(especially the AC air) up to the third floor.

Of course, I can have a couple of heating/HVAC contractors look at the shell
and give me their opinion and a rough idea of the comparative costs -- and I
probably will be doing that anyway. However, since I don't even know what
the room layout of the house is going to be yet, the most that I could
expect from them right now is a very general idea of the pros and cons of
each option.

I'm leaning toward going with a whole new gas-fired forced air central HVAC
system and using the theft of the copper pipes as an "opportunity" to switch
to a central HVAC system rather than to try to restore to old hot water cast
iron heating system.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions that others here may have about which
way to go with this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

The forced air option allows you to install humidifier for the winter,and
central AC for summer. If the cold air doesn't get to the 3rd floor, you can
use duct booster fans, or a couple window units on the back side.

If you redo the boiler, please consider using iron pipe, so that doesn't get
stolen also.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"TomR" wrote in message
...
In a thread that I started on 12/03/2012 (with the subject line "Main Water
Supply Line freeze protection"), I wrote about an empty "shell" home that I
own that recently had all of the copper pipes stolen by thieves. The
property has a full basement (with high ceilings and a ground level walk-out
in the back), and 3 floors above that. The entire house is completely empty
and gutted throughout. All that is left is the exterior walls (which are
masonry/stone), and the floors and stairs. All that is left of the interior
walls and ceilings is the open framing. None of the interior walls are
load-bearing, so all of the wall framing that is left can easily be removed
without creating any problems. Nearly all of the wiring is gone (it was knob
and tube anyway) except for a new main service panel in the basement and a
couple of circuits for the heater, an outlet or two, and a temporary
lighting circuit for the basement. All of the kitchen and bathroom fixtures
and plumbing are already gone (all of that was already gone before the
theft).

So, it is now essentially a blank slate -- meaning that I can design all of
the rooms and future layout however I want it to be, but taking into account
where the stairs are located and where the exterior doors and windows are
located. The first floor and second floor have full-height ceilings
throughout. The third floor is large, but it has some sloped ceilings due
to the roof above. And, I should add that the plan includes that all of the
exterior walls will be framed out on the inside of the building and
insulated since the exterior walls are just masonry/stone right now. And,
of course, all new frame-out windows will be put in since all of the
interior window trim was already removed in anticipation of that.

The house has (or, should I say, "had") hot water cast iron radiator heat.
All of the cast iron radiators are still in place, with any iron piping that
goes to the radiators still there. The gas boiler for the cast iron heating
system is only a few years old (I had it put in when I bought the place and
converted from oil to gas heat). There is no central air conditioning.

My decision now is:

1) Do I design the whole new house layout based on using the existing gas
boiler and keep the hot water cast iron heating system (which would mean
running new copper lines to the radiators)?; or,

2) Should I just take out the existing gas boiler and start over with a
gas-fired forced air central HVAC system?

I don't know the cost of installing a whole new central HVAC system
including all of the duct work throughout the whole house. And, I am
wondering if a central HVAC system will have any issues pumping enough air
(especially the AC air) up to the third floor.

Of course, I can have a couple of heating/HVAC contractors look at the shell
and give me their opinion and a rough idea of the comparative costs -- and I
probably will be doing that anyway. However, since I don't even know what
the room layout of the house is going to be yet, the most that I could
expect from them right now is a very general idea of the pros and cons of
each option.

I'm leaning toward going with a whole new gas-fired forced air central HVAC
system and using the theft of the copper pipes as an "opportunity" to switch
to a central HVAC system rather than to try to restore to old hot water cast
iron heating system.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions that others here may have about which
way to go with this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 17:58:28 -0500, "TomR" wrote:


I'm leaning toward going with a whole new gas-fired forced air central HVAC
system and using the theft of the copper pipes as an "opportunity" to switch
to a central HVAC system rather than to try to restore to old hot water cast
iron heating system.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions that others here may have about which
way to go with this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

You might consider a dual / multi zoned HVAC system. I see them in
homes 5,000 sq.ft.

No need to heat or cool the entire house. Check for any state energy
rebates that my be offered.

On Dec 4, 6:53*pm, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 17:58:28 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

I'm leaning toward going with a whole new gas-fired forced air central HVAC
system and using the theft of the copper pipes as an "opportunity" to switch
to a central HVAC system rather than to try to restore to old hot water cast
iron heating system.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions that others here may have about which
way to go with this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

You might consider a dual / multi zoned HVAC system. I see them in
homes 5,000 sq.ft.

No need to heat or cool the entire house. *Check for any state energy
rebates that my be offered.

It was stated earlier that it's NJ, so you need AC.
That alone would direct me to forced air. Since it's
essentially gutted, that should be relatively easy. A factor
not stated is the size. Larger homes today typically
have two systems, one for the upstairs, one for downstairs.
That could solve the issue of getting enough air to the
third floor.

If you go with furnace in the basement, then I would
be damned sure that they run large enough return
ducts and large enough supply ducts to that third
floor. Brand new million dollar homes have been
built here in NJ, all over the place, that have totally
flawed HVAC systems because of inadequate ducting.
When you have the place gutted, it should be easy
to do right. And if it's not, you're screwed. Yet, I
bet if you call in 3 contractors, I wouldn't be surprised
if they all would screw it up unless you specifically
bring it up, spec it out and keep after them.

Also if you go with a single unit, I'd be looking at
having it zoned, as Oren suggested. Again, not a lot
of increased cost if it's done upfront and done right.
Nothing worse than having a hot third floor due to
a system that isn't done right.

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:53:07 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 17:58:28 -0500, "TomR" wrote:


I'm leaning toward going with a whole new gas-fired forced air central HVAC
system and using the theft of the copper pipes as an "opportunity" to switch
to a central HVAC system rather than to try to restore to old hot water cast
iron heating system.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions that others here may have about which
way to go with this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

You might consider a dual / multi zoned HVAC system. I see them in
homes 5,000 sq.ft.

Between the two of them[*], my houses have a bit over 6000 sq.ft. of
heated/air-conditioned space, with four HVAC systems. ;-)
[*] One should be on the market in a week or so. Finally!

No need to heat or cool the entire house. Check for any state energy
rebates that my be offered.

I generally don't use the upstairs units much, though I'll probably
have to in this house this next summer (I'm using the space now,
sorta).

On Dec 4, 10:58*pm, "TomR" wrote:
In a thread that I started on 12/03/2012 (with the subject line "Main Water
Supply Line freeze protection"), I wrote about an empty "shell" home that I
own that recently had all of the copper pipes stolen by thieves. *The
property has a full basement (with high ceilings and a ground level walk-out
in the back), and 3 floors above that. *The entire house is completely empty
and gutted throughout. *All that is left is the exterior walls (which are
masonry/stone), and the floors and stairs. *All that is left of the interior
walls and ceilings is the open framing. *None of the interior walls are
load-bearing, so all of the wall framing that is left can easily be removed
without creating any problems. Nearly all of the wiring is gone (it was knob
and tube anyway) except for a new main service panel in the basement and a
couple of circuits for the heater, an outlet or two, and a temporary
lighting circuit for the basement. *All of the kitchen and bathroom fixtures
and plumbing are already gone (all of that was already gone before the
theft).

So, it is now essentially a blank slate -- meaning that I can design all of
the rooms and future layout however I want it to be, but taking into account
where the stairs are located and where the exterior doors and windows are
located. *The first floor and second floor have full-height ceilings
throughout. *The third floor is large, but it has some sloped ceilings due
to the roof above. And, I should add that the plan includes that all of the
exterior walls will be framed out on the inside of the building and
insulated since the exterior walls are just masonry/stone right now. *And,
of course, all new frame-out windows will be put in since all of the
interior window trim was already removed in anticipation of that.

The house has (or, should I say, "had") hot water cast iron radiator heat..
All of the cast iron radiators are still in place, with any iron piping that
goes to the radiators still there. *The gas boiler for the cast iron heating
system is only a few years old (I had it put in when I bought the place and
converted from oil to gas heat). *There is no central air conditioning.

My decision now is:

1) Do I design the whole new house layout based on using the existing gas
boiler and keep the hot water cast iron heating system (which would mean
running new copper lines to the radiators)?; or,

2) Should I just take out the existing gas boiler and start over with a
gas-fired forced air central HVAC system?

I don't know the cost of installing a whole new central HVAC system
including all of the duct work throughout the whole house. *And, I am
wondering if a central HVAC system will have any issues pumping enough air
(especially the AC air) up to the third floor.

Of course, I can have a couple of heating/HVAC contractors look at the shell
and give me their opinion and a rough idea of the comparative costs -- and I
probably will be doing that anyway. *However, since I don't even know what
the room layout of the house is going to be yet, the most that I could
expect from them right now is a very general idea of the pros and cons of
each option.

I'm leaning toward going with a whole new gas-fired forced air central HVAC
system and using the theft of the copper pipes as an "opportunity" to switch
to a central HVAC system rather than to try to restore to old hot water cast
iron heating system.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions that others here may have about which
way to go with this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

You might consider a ground source heat pump depending on the relative
costs of gas and electricity and any subsidies available..

Renew the piping in steel as less likely to be stolen.

A "wet system" will be more efficient than air, hence use less fuel if
you stick with gas.

"TomR" wrote in message ...

The gas boiler for the cast iron heating
system is only a few years old (I had it put in when I bought the place and
converted from oil to gas heat). There is no central air conditioning.

My decision now is:

Radiant Floor Heat multiple heating zones

around here scrappers are removing everything metal from vacant homes.

recently looking at properties with a friend, i have seen homes
stripped of ductwork, one to the point of collapsing parts of the
home, no furnace, no AC, no hot water tank, one even had the wiring
removed.....

I would go with multiple forced air furnaces with air, each on its own
meter, and seperate utilities, at least the main ones. around here
water sewer tended to be on one bill, since they werent expensive.....
today sewer costs more than water and both are sky rocketing...

with a total gut you have a great opportunity to improve your property
greatly

On Dec 5, 2:42*am, harry wrote:
On Dec 4, 10:58*pm, "TomR" wrote:





In a thread that I started on 12/03/2012 (with the subject line "Main Water
Supply Line freeze protection"), I wrote about an empty "shell" home that I
own that recently had all of the copper pipes stolen by thieves. *The
property has a full basement (with high ceilings and a ground level walk-out
in the back), and 3 floors above that. *The entire house is completely empty
and gutted throughout. *All that is left is the exterior walls (which are
masonry/stone), and the floors and stairs. *All that is left of the interior
walls and ceilings is the open framing. *None of the interior walls are
load-bearing, so all of the wall framing that is left can easily be removed
without creating any problems. Nearly all of the wiring is gone (it was knob
and tube anyway) except for a new main service panel in the basement and a
couple of circuits for the heater, an outlet or two, and a temporary
lighting circuit for the basement. *All of the kitchen and bathroom fixtures
and plumbing are already gone (all of that was already gone before the
theft).

So, it is now essentially a blank slate -- meaning that I can design all of
the rooms and future layout however I want it to be, but taking into account
where the stairs are located and where the exterior doors and windows are
located. *The first floor and second floor have full-height ceilings
throughout. *The third floor is large, but it has some sloped ceilings due
to the roof above. And, I should add that the plan includes that all of the
exterior walls will be framed out on the inside of the building and
insulated since the exterior walls are just masonry/stone right now. *And,
of course, all new frame-out windows will be put in since all of the
interior window trim was already removed in anticipation of that.

The house has (or, should I say, "had") hot water cast iron radiator heat.
All of the cast iron radiators are still in place, with any iron piping that
goes to the radiators still there. *The gas boiler for the cast iron heating
system is only a few years old (I had it put in when I bought the place and
converted from oil to gas heat). *There is no central air conditioning.

My decision now is:

1) Do I design the whole new house layout based on using the existing gas
boiler and keep the hot water cast iron heating system (which would mean
running new copper lines to the radiators)?; or,

2) Should I just take out the existing gas boiler and start over with a
gas-fired forced air central HVAC system?

I don't know the cost of installing a whole new central HVAC system
including all of the duct work throughout the whole house. *And, I am
wondering if a central HVAC system will have any issues pumping enough air
(especially the AC air) up to the third floor.

Of course, I can have a couple of heating/HVAC contractors look at the shell
and give me their opinion and a rough idea of the comparative costs -- and I
probably will be doing that anyway. *However, since I don't even know what
the room layout of the house is going to be yet, the most that I could
expect from them right now is a very general idea of the pros and cons of
each option.

I'm leaning toward going with a whole new gas-fired forced air central HVAC
system and using the theft of the copper pipes as an "opportunity" to switch
to a central HVAC system rather than to try to restore to old hot water cast
iron heating system.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions that others here may have about which
way to go with this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

You might consider a ground source heat pump depending on the relative
costs of gas and electricity and any subsidies available..

Renew the piping in steel as less likely to be stolen.

Renew the piping for radiators?
And then do what for AC? Hang those ugly mini-splits
all over the place like you do in the UK?

Geothermal will cost ~$20,000 more, a tidy enough sum so that you'll
never recover the cost over the life of the system. Particularly in
NJ with some of the highest electricity costs in the country.



A "wet system" will be more efficient than air, hence use less fuel if
you stick with gas.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



This from the village idiot who has demonstrated countless
times that he doesn't have a clue about thermodynamics or
energy efficiency. This specific issue has been driven into
your head with spec sheets galore, yet you just won't learn.
There are gas furnaces readily available here in
the USA from many manufacturers that are inexpensive and
96% energy efficient. They are widely used and are the leading
choice for new systems. There are also boilers for hydronic
heating that are about the same efficiency. There are no
differences in efficiency. There is a big difference though when
it comes to AC, which the OP needs. With a gas furnace,
the AC equipment mates with the furnace and for $2000 more,
you have AC for the whole house. Ever try putting AC onto a
boiler?

I highly recommend seperate forced air furnaces for each unit with
Air. this gives each unit its own thermostat, and teenant pays
utilities the furnces dont have to be in the basement

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
I highly recommend seperate forced air furnaces for each unit with
Air. this gives each unit its own thermostat, and teenant pays
utilities the furnces dont have to be in the basement

The property is currently a single family dwelling, so separate utilities
etc. wouldn't make sense.

But, there is a remote possibility that I would go for township approval to
convert it into a 2-family dwelling. There are other multi-family dwellings
all around this property so that may be an option. And, of course, if I did
convert it I would want all separate utilities (including gas, electric,
heat, water, sewer etc) for each unit.

wrote in message
...
On Dec 4, 6:53 pm, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 17:58:28 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

I'm leaning toward going with a whole new gas-fired forced air central
HVAC
system and using the theft of the copper pipes as an "opportunity" to
switch
to a central HVAC system rather than to try to restore to old hot water
cast
iron heating system.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions that others here may have about which
way to go with this would be appreciated.

It was stated earlier that it's NJ, so you need AC.
That alone would direct me to forced air. Since it's
essentially gutted, that should be relatively easy. A factor
not stated is the size. Larger homes today typically
have two systems, one for the upstairs, one for downstairs.
That could solve the issue of getting enough air to the
third floor.

The size: It's a semi-detached twin home (meaning 2 homes side-by-side with
a shared party wall between them; I own one side and my neighbor owns the
other side). The unfinished basement, 1st floor, and 2nd floor are about
625 square feet each; and the 3rd floor is about 500 square feet.

And, with the new high efficiency HVAC systems being direct vent, I could
probably place 2 units almost anywhere and vent each of them out through a
wall.