Disassembling my first torsion spring setup, on my 8'wide by 7'tall
garage door, I just found something unexpected.

My single-spring 7'wide garage door doesn't have a center bearing.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428496.jpg

Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428497.jpg

I have a bearing on each end, but no center bearing?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428516.jpg

The reason I ask is that the center, when hand spun, with no weight on it
other than the loose spring, has about a 1/4 inch sag in the center.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428533.jpg

Seems to me, I was expecting a center bearing.

Can it be that single-spring torsion systems don't have center bearings?

"Danny D." wrote:

Seems to me, I was expecting a center bearing.

My 16-ft garage door has a center bearing (and two springs - one on each
side of the center bearing).

For an 8-ft wide door, I wouldn't expect a center bearing.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:38:45 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

For an 8-ft wide door, I wouldn't expect a center bearing.

I think you're right because, digging up all I could, I found this:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instru...eplacement.php

Where it says:
"Some garage doors are installed without bearings.
If you have no bearing in your spring anchor bracket,
grease the shaft where it will be rubbing inside the cones."

So, I'm moving forward in the other thread on winding the torsion spring
for the first time ever in my life!

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:17:25 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Disassembling my first torsion spring setup, on my 8'wide by 7'tall
garage door, I just found something unexpected.

My single-spring 7'wide garage door doesn't have a center bearing.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428496.jpg

Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428497.jpg

I have a bearing on each end, but no center bearing?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428516.jpg

The reason I ask is that the center, when hand spun, with no weight on it
other than the loose spring, has about a 1/4 inch sag in the center.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428533.jpg

Seems to me, I was expecting a center bearing.

Can it be that single-spring torsion systems don't have center bearings?


I looked at my doors. Wayne Dalton is a double door. The single door
is a Martin door* (the best door on the market IMO). Neither have a
bearing in the center. Instead, they both have a hard plastic bushing
to keep the shaft centered in the bracket mount.

Is the sag caused by having everything disconnected or did it sag
before you started working on the springs?

(* The Martin door single spring is not in the center of the door, but
is mounted on the left side next to the track.)

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 12:57:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

I looked at my doors. Wayne Dalton is a double door.
Thanks for taking the time to look & write. You're a saint.

Neither have a bearing in the center.
Instead, they both have a hard plastic bushing to
keep the shaft centered in the bracket mount.

Oh oh. I had called up Dan Musick today (800-383-9548) and I told him
there was no 'bearing' (but I didn't mention a 'bushing'). He said he's
seen 'more' problems from a middle bearing going askew than not having a
bearing at all - but now I realize I didn't clarify that I have neither a
bearing nor a bushing.

I think it matters because the 9 foot bar actually MOVES!

Yes. Apparently, from my observation anyway - the overdoor bar slides to
the right (standing in the center of the garage and looking at a single
right wound spring on the left side of center) about an inch as the door
goes up (and back to the left as the door goes down).


Here is Dan's torsion spring replacement DIY for a single spring single-
spring where he actually mentions the nylon bushing (not the bearing) in
step #15:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instru...eplacement.php

Is the sag caused by having everything disconnected
or did it sag before you started working on the springs?

Hmmm... I wish I had known enough to look before the spring broke!

Especially when you see these two pictures:

DOOR CLOSED:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430038.jpg
DOOR OPEN:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430039.jpg

Notice the 9 foot bar seems to be sliding an inch to the right when the
door opens (and the bracket is pulled left); and then the 9 foot long bar
is slid an inch back to the left (and the bracket centers itself).

I think, over time, this will break the bracket. No?

Do anyone see the same thing with your single-torsion spring door, right
hand wound, mounted to the left of center?
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430064.jpg

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 22:42:56 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 12:57:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

I looked at my doors. Wayne Dalton is a double door.
Thanks for taking the time to look & write. You're a saint.

Neither have a bearing in the center.
Instead, they both have a hard plastic bushing to
keep the shaft centered in the bracket mount.

Oh oh. I had called up Dan Musick today (800-383-9548) and I told him
there was no 'bearing' (but I didn't mention a 'bushing'). He said he's
seen 'more' problems from a middle bearing going askew than not having a
bearing at all - but now I realize I didn't clarify that I have neither a
bearing nor a bushing.

I think it matters because the 9 foot bar actually MOVES!

Yes. Apparently, from my observation anyway - the overdoor bar slides to
the right (standing in the center of the garage and looking at a single
right wound spring on the left side of center) about an inch as the door
goes up (and back to the left as the door goes down).


Here is Dan's torsion spring replacement DIY for a single spring single-
spring where he actually mentions the nylon bushing (not the bearing) in
step #15:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instru...eplacement.php

Is the sag caused by having everything disconnected
or did it sag before you started working on the springs?

Hmmm... I wish I had known enough to look before the spring broke!

Especially when you see these two pictures:

DOOR CLOSED:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430038.jpg
DOOR OPEN:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430039.jpg

Notice the 9 foot bar seems to be sliding an inch to the right when the
door opens (and the bracket is pulled left); and then the 9 foot long bar
is slid an inch back to the left (and the bracket centers itself).

I think, over time, this will break the bracket. No?

Do anyone see the same thing with your single-torsion spring door, right
hand wound, mounted to the left of center?
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430064.jpg

Send the OPEN / CLOSE photos to Dan and ask if the spring you used is
to big / long for the door. The center bracket should not be flexing
like that. I do think the bracket will break in due time, in some
fashion. You added 10.5 inch of spring length and it may be to much
torque.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:25:29 -0800, Oren wrote:

Send the OPEN / CLOSE photos to Dan and ask if the spring you used is to
big / long for the door. The center bracket should not be flexing like
that. I do think the bracket will break in due time, in some fashion.
You added 10.5 inch of spring length and it may be to much torque.

It also worries me how much it the bracket is flexing.

Upon closer inspection, there is only a SINGLE BOLT holding that plate
against the wall!

Look at this picture (with the door closed):
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430589.jpg

Believe it or not, they have three BOLTS (not screws) holding the angle
iron in place - which means those three bolts holding the angle iron in
place were put in (from the outside) when the garage was built.

The weird thing is only ONE of those three bolts actually (also) holds
the bracket in place. So the bracket is free to move more than I think it
should be.

Guessing: It looks like they have some holes that are unused - probably
because they only went into sheetrock - with nothing below - which is why
it only has one bolt holding the bracket perhaps.

More data: I just screwed a long wood screw into two of the bracket holes
and they both had ONLY gypsum board behind them. So that's why they
didn't bolt the bracket with two bolts - but now I need to re-engineer
how that bracket is held in place.

Note: I can see why garage door companies don't want to upgrade springs
but this problem 'might' not even be due to the upgraded spring.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:14:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:25:29 -0800, Oren wrote:

Send the OPEN / CLOSE photos to Dan and ask if the spring you used is to
big / long for the door. The center bracket should not be flexing like
that. I do think the bracket will break in due time, in some fashion.
You added 10.5 inch of spring length and it may be to much torque.

It also worries me how much it the bracket is flexing.

Upon closer inspection, there is only a SINGLE BOLT holding that plate
against the wall!

Look at this picture (with the door closed):
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430589.jpg

Believe it or not, they have three BOLTS (not screws) holding the angle
iron in place - which means those three bolts holding the angle iron in
place were put in (from the outside) when the garage was built.

The weird thing is only ONE of those three bolts actually (also) holds
the bracket in place. So the bracket is free to move more than I think it
should be.

Guessing: It looks like they have some holes that are unused - probably
because they only went into sheetrock - with nothing below - which is why
it only has one bolt holding the bracket perhaps.

More data: I just screwed a long wood screw into two of the bracket holes
and they both had ONLY gypsum board behind them. So that's why they
didn't bolt the bracket with two bolts - but now I need to re-engineer
how that bracket is held in place.

Note: I can see why garage door companies don't want to upgrade springs
but this problem 'might' not even be due to the upgraded spring.

Use a hammer and nail to see if the is a wood piece behind the angle
iron vertical and left or right of the metal. My door does not use the
angle iron. The bracket is bolted (threaded) into vertical wood
framing. I'm not sure why the center bracket is right of center on the
door. You might measure and see if the is wood behind the sheetrock
can be located at the center - if so move that bracket over an remount
it (guessing here).

Another thought is that if you back the spring off some it may fix the
flexing problem on the bracket.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:14:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:25:29 -0800, Oren wrote:

Send the OPEN / CLOSE photos to Dan and ask if the spring you used is to
big / long for the door. The center bracket should not be flexing like
that. I do think the bracket will break in due time, in some fashion.
You added 10.5 inch of spring length and it may be to much torque.

It also worries me how much it the bracket is flexing.


Sure looks wrong to me. I don't fully understand the forces involved,
but I do know bending a bracket back and forth isn't good.
Mine have always been double spring with a center bracket/bearing.
So the 2 springs cancel each others' attempt at lateral torsion shaft
movement.
And that would also mean the springs can't change in actual length,
since they are locked at both ends and the shaft doesn't move.
Guess that's why there's "spring engineers." Maybe.

Danny D. wrote:

Upon closer inspection, there is only a SINGLE BOLT holding that plate
against the wall!

Very dangerous. That is where all the energy 'rests'. Screw in another
3" lag screw and get yourself a bearing/bushing.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 22:42:56 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 12:57:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

I looked at my doors. Wayne Dalton is a double door.
Thanks for taking the time to look & write. You're a saint.

Neither have a bearing in the center.
Instead, they both have a hard plastic bushing to
keep the shaft centered in the bracket mount.

Oh oh. I had called up Dan Musick today (800-383-9548) and I told him
there was no 'bearing' (but I didn't mention a 'bushing'). He said he's
seen 'more' problems from a middle bearing going askew than not having a
bearing at all - but now I realize I didn't clarify that I have neither a
bearing nor a bushing.

I think it matters because the 9 foot bar actually MOVES!

Yes. Apparently, from my observation anyway - the overdoor bar slides to
the right (standing in the center of the garage and looking at a single
right wound spring on the left side of center) about an inch as the door
goes up (and back to the left as the door goes down).


Here is Dan's torsion spring replacement DIY for a single spring single-
spring where he actually mentions the nylon bushing (not the bearing) in
step #15:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instru...eplacement.php

Is the sag caused by having everything disconnected
or did it sag before you started working on the springs?

Hmmm... I wish I had known enough to look before the spring broke!

Especially when you see these two pictures:

DOOR CLOSED:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430038.jpg
DOOR OPEN:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430039.jpg

Notice the 9 foot bar seems to be sliding an inch to the right when the
door opens (and the bracket is pulled left); and then the 9 foot long bar
is slid an inch back to the left (and the bracket centers itself).

I think, over time, this will break the bracket. No?

Do anyone see the same thing with your single-torsion spring door, right
hand wound, mounted to the left of center?
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430064.jpg


I just looked at my 7 foot door. It has a center bearing. IMHO they
should all have a center bearing, or at least a bushing. The bearing
combined with the rod prevents the bending you are seeing on your
flimsy metal center spring base support bracket. Your spring seems
too long to me for a 7 foot door. However, a longer spring means more
coils, which means for the same amount of rotation the spring "winds
up" less, as a proportion of it's total windup capacity. I'm guessing
that the spring you have is for a taller (not wider) door which
naturally needs to wind the spring more as the taller door moves thru
it full up-down range. My double door simply has two springs that
each appear to be0 the same size as the one spring on my single door.
I think you are fooling yourself by thinking that the "bigger" (i.e.
longer) spring is providing you with extra "power". It may or may not
be since power is a function of materials, diameter (of the wire as
well as the spring), number of coils, amount of twist, and probably
some other stuff.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 18:39:13 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

I just looked at my 7 foot door. It has a center bearing.
IMHO they should all have a center bearing, or at least a bushing.

I don't disagree.

Thanks for looking. I appreciate that since I only have my doors
to go by.

I may end up putting either a nylon bushing in there, or better
yet, a steel bearing. I think the original installer cheaped
out, saving himself a couple of bucks - but the homeowner loses.


The bearing combined with the rod prevents the bending
I think it would prevent the 'sagging' of the one-inch hollow
rod that goes across the door. I don't know if the bearing
would prevent the bracket from bending 7 coils inward when the
door is open - simply because the bracket is supposed to be
stationary.

Your spring seems too long to me for a 7 foot door.
It's calculated

However, a longer spring means more coils
I didn't count the coils - but the new spring is thicker
gauge wire - so - any one coil is thicker. The reason for
the thicker gauge wire is merely for duty cycles.

Since the wire is thicker, to lift the same door, the
spring will be either longer, or a larger ID. Since I kept
the ID at 2", the spring has to be longer to lift the same
door.

I think you are fooling yourself by thinking that the
"bigger" (i.e. longer) spring is providing you with
extra "power".

You're absolutely right. I would be fooling myself if I
thought that. The 'only' reason for the longer spring is
I opted for a thicker gauge (0.250" rather than 0.243").

The only way you can get the same force with the thicker
gauge wire is to either opt for a larger ID or for a
longer spring. I opted for the longer spring.

But it should have the same force as the shorter spring
with the thinner gauge. It should only have a longer
duty cycle (by far).

Of course, it's ironic if this longer-duty cycle spring
tears the mounting plate off the wall. Certainly, I need
to find a solution.

For the next person who replaces their garage door spring,
I suggest looking first BEFORE it breaks, to see how it's
working.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 05:18:50 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

The bearing combined with the rod prevents the bending

I think it would prevent the 'sagging' of the one-inch hollow
rod that goes across the door. I don't know if the bearing
would prevent the bracket from bending 7 coils inward when the
door is open - simply because the bracket is supposed to be
stationary.

I forgot to snap a photo (Wayne Dalton door). The bracket uses a
nylon bushing. When the door is closed, there is a slight arch /
radius on the shaft downward. Slight, but you have to really look to
notice. A bushing / bearing is necessary to keep the shaft from
serious movement in the slotted bracket.

"Danny D." wrote:
Disassembling my first torsion spring setup, on my 8'wide by 7'tall
garage door, I just found something unexpected.

My single-spring 7'wide garage door doesn't have a center bearing.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428496.jpg

Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428497.jpg

I have a bearing on each end, but no center bearing?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428516.jpg

The reason I ask is that the center, when hand spun, with no weight on it
other than the loose spring, has about a 1/4 inch sag in the center.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428533.jpg

Seems to me, I was expecting a center bearing.

Can it be that single-spring torsion systems don't have center bearings?

Here's my single door's center bracket. As far as I know the door is
original to the house, so it's about 57 years old. The torsion spring was
replaced something like 10 years ago, but not by me.

To be honest, I don't know if that's a bearing or a bushing, but the bar is
definitely supported in the center bracket by whatever that is. The
bracket is mounted with 2 lag bolts, one into the header and the other into
the cripple stud. It does not move at all as the door goes up and down..

Bearing or Bushing:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...3209104153.jpg

Bracket Mounting:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...3209023586.jpg

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:36:17 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Here's my single door's center bracket. As far as I know the door is
original to the house, so it's about 57 years old. The torsion spring was
replaced something like 10 years ago, but not by me.

Wow. I envy how STURDY your spring mounting is (compared to mine!).

Your first picture showed a nicely installed bearing.
And your second picture shows a sturdily bolted plate.

I don't know if that's a bearing or a bushing

It's a bearing. A bushing is (apparently) simply a piece of nylon.

It does not move at all as the door goes up and down.

Thanks for the update. I envy you. And learn from you!

"Danny D." wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:36:17 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Here's my single door's center bracket. As far as I know the door is
original to the house, so it's about 57 years old. The torsion spring was
replaced something like 10 years ago, but not by me.

Wow. I envy how STURDY your spring mounting is (compared to mine!).

Your first picture showed a nicely installed bearing.
And your second picture shows a sturdily bolted plate.

I don't know if that's a bearing or a bushing

It's a bearing. A bushing is (apparently) simply a piece of nylon.

It does not move at all as the door goes up and down.

Thanks for the update. I envy you. And learn from you!

There's a family owned garage door company in my area. I've had 2 problems
with my garage door in the last ten years. One was a busted torsion spring,
the other I don't remember what it was...I think it was a cable.

Both times i called them, left them a key to the side door of the garage
and when I got home from work, the problem was solved for a reasonable
price. You can see the quality of work that they do, so it was money well
spent.

I still see their trucks on the road and have recommended them to a number
of my friends and co-workers.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:36:17 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Can it be that single-spring torsion systems don't have center bearings?

Here's my single door's center bracket. As far as I know the door is
original to the house, so it's about 57 years old. The torsion spring was
replaced something like 10 years ago, but not by me.

To be honest, I don't know if that's a bearing or a bushing, but the bar is
definitely supported in the center bracket by whatever that is. The
bracket is mounted with 2 lag bolts, one into the header and the other into
the cripple stud. It does not move at all as the door goes up and down..

Bearing or Bushing:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...3209104153.jpg

Bracket Mounting:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...3209023586.jpg

Likely a bearing. Touch a magnet to it. A nylon bushing, in my case,
is black.

On 11/17/2012 1:17 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Disassembling my first torsion spring setup, on my 8'wide by 7'tall
garage door, I just found something unexpected.

My single-spring 7'wide garage door doesn't have a center bearing.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428496.jpg

Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428497.jpg

I have a bearing on each end, but no center bearing?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428516.jpg

The reason I ask is that the center, when hand spun, with no weight on it
other than the loose spring, has about a 1/4 inch sag in the center.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428533.jpg

Seems to me, I was expecting a center bearing.

Can it be that single-spring torsion systems don't have center bearings?



there would be no need for one in a 7 or 8 foot span.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:44:26 -0600, Steve Barker wrote:

there would be no need for one in a 7 or 8 foot span.

I'm going to see what Dan Musick thinks - I hope he responds
to my email on Monday.

I see three options at the moment:
a) Shore up the bracket (somehow) to that it doesn't move
b) Add a nylon bushing or steel bearing & see if that helps
c) Convert the one spring to a two-spring system

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:56:12 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:44:26 -0600, Steve Barker wrote:

there would be no need for one in a 7 or 8 foot span.

I'm going to see what Dan Musick thinks - I hope he responds
to my email on Monday.

I see three options at the moment:

a) Shore up the bracket (somehow) to that it doesn't move

First step

b) Add a nylon bushing or steel bearing & see if that helps

Second step

c) Convert the one spring to a two-spring system

Wait until next time. Have a beverage instead.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:51:47 -0800, Oren wrote:

a) Shore up the bracket (somehow) to that it doesn't move
First step
b) Add a nylon bushing or steel bearing & see if that helps
Second step
c) Convert the one spring to a two-spring system
Wait until next time. Have a beverage instead.

Thanks for the advice of the priorities.

One thing I tried today was MEASURING how much the spring
grew to the left when I installed it.

So I unwound it - and measured the growth to be 2 1/4 inches:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11439810.jpg

One 'complication' is that I do NOT understand WHY the Dan Musick
instructions say to add an extra 1/4 inch to the normal growth
of the spring AFTER it has been wound the extra 7 turns.

I 'think' I might have pushed the spring out MORE than 1/4 inch
when following those directions (although I don't understand them).

QUESTION:
Do you know why Dan suggests adding the extra 1/4 inch?

Here are Dan's instructions:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instru...eplacement.php
Notice step #72 (actually #70 to #73).

I don't understand why we need to "GROW" the spring any more
than it grows on its own (and I wonder if I grew it too much)???

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 00:16:51 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

QUESTION:
Do you know why Dan suggests adding the extra 1/4 inch?
Here are Dan's instructions:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instru...eplacement.php
Notice step #72 (actually #70 to #73).

I just realized I have about an extra inch of leeway by pushing the
hollow rod left or right BEFORE I mount the spring.

However, I'm a bit confused which way (left or right) would be
best to push the rod by that inch before I put the spring on.

It's new to me that the rod moves back and forth side to side,
and I'm not sure why we move the spring left after it grows,
so it's kinda confusing to me which way will put the least
side-to-side stress on the bracket.

I just got off the phone with Dan of DDM Doors (he's a saint!)
who said that the ONLY way that the spring end plate could be
moving like that was if the two bearing end plates were allowing
it to move.

So, he said, I can secure the spring end plate, but that
in and of itself would NOT solve my problem:

Here is a picture of the spring end plate logistics:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11445008.jpg

I have to secure the bearing end plates:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11444808.jpg

Dan is going to send me some parts for me to do the job right.

I'll let you know what happens - but I wish I really better
understood what is making the spring end plate move like that!

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:07:51 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Here is a picture of the spring end plate logistics:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11445008.jpg


I'd move the spring mount bracket LEFT, closer to the center of the
door. This assumes you have clearance adjacent the left side cable
drum.

I have to secure the bearing end plates:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11444808.jpg

You still haven't mentioned what is behind the sheetrock. If you did
I missed it. Is it a solid concrete header?

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:16:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

I'd move the spring mount bracket LEFT, closer to the center
of the door. This assumes you have clearance adjacent the
left side cable drum.

Hi Oren,

See this picture which shows the geometries:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11446447.jpg

I'd agree with you that moving the spring mount bracket LEFT
18" works best because it leaves room to add a second spring
(if needed, later).

Moving the bracket right 12" doesn't allow for the second spring.
However, moving the bracket left only leaves me about 8 inches
before the spring hits the cable drum. (Keep in mind my new 0.250"
spring is 10 inches longer than the old 0.234" spring.)

You still haven't mentioned what is behind the sheetrock.
If you did I missed it. Is it a solid concrete header?

I wish I knew. As far as I can tell, there is NOTHING behind
the sheetrock. I punched fifteen 3-inch long nail holes into
the sheetrock and the only thing I ran into was the two
studs mentioned above.

There is no header. I would have expected a huge beam above
the garage door - but I am strongly suspecting there is a
steel beam at the ceiling level instead.

Look at this picture. Look at the very top right of the pic:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11446497.jpg
Do you see those four huge nuts? I think that's a beam.

You guys know better than I how they build these things.
But it sure looks like there isn't any wooden header!

What do you think those four bolts are way up at the top?

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 22:28:29 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Look at this picture. Look at the very top right of the pic:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11446497.jpg
Do you see those four huge nuts? I think that's a beam.

You guys know better than I how they build these things.
But it sure looks like there isn't any wooden header!

What do you think those four bolts are way up at the top?

Could be metal header. Drive a nail left, right and below the nuts.
Try an figure the direction the metal travels. I'll hazard a guess it
will be the header over the garage.

Danny D. wrote:

I wish I knew. As far as I can tell, there is NOTHING behind
the sheetrock. I punched fifteen 3-inch long nail holes into
the sheetrock and the only thing I ran into was the two
studs mentioned above.

If you can not get a good lag screw into the bearing plate, you'll need
to 'span' some angle iron across the top (where the header should be)
and lag into the vertical studs on both sides to make a solid connection
point for the bearing plate. Use two 18" pieces of angle iron
horizontally to make a mounting point. You can also use wood, a 3/4"
piece of plywood that is firmly mounted into the vertical studs on
either side of center to make a mounting point. If you do that, you
will also need to shim the sides where the drum brackets are mounted so
the torsion bar is not bending out towards the garage.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:58:15 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

If you can not get a good lag screw into the bearing plate ...

There is absolutely nothing below the entire length of the
spring end plate.

you'll need to 'span' some angle iron across the top
(where the header should be)

There 'is' a cripple stud of wood along the top (header?) of
the garage door, which is diagrammed in this photo:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11454354.jpg

you will also need to shim the sides where the drum brackets
are mounted so the torsion bar is not bending out

I have a vertical cripple stud about a foot and a half to
the right of the drum mounts where I will try to shore up
the lack of anything below the drum mounts themselves.

Danny D. wrote:

Look at this picture. Look at the very top right of the pic:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11446497.jpg
Do you see those four huge nuts? I think that's a beam.

Probably is. See the sheet rock screws? That means there is vertical
studs to mount to.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:59:55 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

See the sheet rock screws?
That means there are vertical studs to mount to.

Here is a picture showing the cripple studs & the steel beam:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11454354.jpg

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:07:51 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Here is a picture of the spring end plate logistics:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11445008.jpg

I have to secure the bearing end plates:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11444808.jpg

Dan is going to send me some parts for me to do the job right.

I'll let you know what happens - but I wish I really better
understood what is making the spring end plate move like that!

My guess is the metal is flexing at the drum, due to not have studs
secured in the spots you show?

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:25:20 -0800, Oren wrote:

My guess is the metal is flexing at the drum, due to not have studs
secured in the spots you show?

I can't disagree. I never would have even LOOKED at the end
plates had Dan of DDM Garage Doors told me they MUST be flexing.

Mind you, he told me they were flexing BEFORE I even knew that
they had no bolts below them (because there is no stud below them).

He surmised that - because he said there is no way the spring
anchor bracket would move like that if the end bearing plates
were solidly bolted in.

So, he's sending me, gratis, hardware to tie those end bearing
plates to the nearest studs. I'm not exactly sure HOW I'm going
to do that - but I'll wait for the parts to arrive where I'll
figure it out from the pieces.

BTW, I don't work for DDM Garage Doors - but - if you're a
do it yourselfer - I would heartily recommend Dan. He's
wonderful. Don't even look anywhere else. Buy from him!

He stands behind you, hook, line, and sinker!

Danny D. wrote:

Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428497.jpg

NO! That is missing the bearing, it MUST be on there!

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:47:55 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11428497.jpg

NO! That is missing the bearing, it MUST be on there!

Dan Musick of DDM Garage Doors is kindly sending me a bearing.

The construction appears to be:
a) There is air under the entire spring anchor plate.
b) The spring anchor plate is bolted by 1 bolt to the angle iron.
c) There is air below the angle iron except at the very top & bottom.
d) There is air under both end bearing plates.

Given that, what appears to be happening (0.250" steel):
A) As the door rolls up, the spring compresses 7.5 turns (~2")
B) This (invisibly) pulls in both end bearing plates (hard to see)
C) Which also visibly pulls in the spring anchor plate (~1")

Here is what I think the forces a
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11453754.jpg

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:54:59 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Here is what I think the forces a
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11453754.jpg

New information!

This DASMA spring reference says there is a new solution to
the bending forces on single torsion spring brackets:
http://www.dasma.com/articles/tech/tips33.asp

It says (verbatim):
"For a garage door using a single torsion spring, the spring
bearing bracket ... is subjected to bending back and forth
each time the spring winds and unwinds. This action not only
stresses the bracket and ultimately its fasteners beyond
capacity, but eventually can cause the bearing itself to
fall apart."

One solution to explore might be a different kind of bracket:
"Ken Martin...suggests that a double-flange, side-bearing
bracket be used on single spring doors. He notes that this
[double-flange side-bearing] bracket is normally fastened to
both the top of the horizontal track angle and into the wall"

Googling for "double-flange side-bearing bracket", I don't find
a definitive article - but I'll keep looking as that might be a
solution in and of itself in my special circumstances.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:25:21 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:54:59 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Here is what I think the forces a
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11453754.jpg

New information!

This DASMA spring reference says there is a new solution to
the bending forces on single torsion spring brackets:
http://www.dasma.com/articles/tech/tips33.asp

It says (verbatim):
"For a garage door using a single torsion spring, the spring
bearing bracket ... is subjected to bending back and forth
each time the spring winds and unwinds. This action not only
stresses the bracket and ultimately its fasteners beyond
capacity, but eventually can cause the bearing itself to
fall apart."

One solution to explore might be a different kind of bracket:
"Ken Martin...suggests that a double-flange, side-bearing
bracket be used on single spring doors. He notes that this
[double-flange side-bearing] bracket is normally fastened to
both the top of the horizontal track angle and into the wall"

Googling for "double-flange side-bearing bracket", I don't find
a definitive article - but I'll keep looking as that might be a
solution in and of itself in my special circumstances.

You might be dealing with cheap original hardware. Or poorly
fastened. Never saw a pic that showed if the entire bracket was
moving. or it was just flexing.
One other thing that I noticed taking a look at an older post to look
at the bracket.
DOOR CLOSED:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430038.jpg
DOOR OPEN:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11430039.jpg

The spring is wound in the DOOR OPEN pic. Isn't that backwards?
Anyway, I think others have posted pics of their single spring doors
that show the spring bracket stiff.
Seem the torsional forces on that bracket are always going to be no
more than the weight of the door can apply, no matter what spring was
used. Might be wrong on that, I'm not an engineer.
That would point to a too-weak bracket/fastening.
Might be age/fatigue, or poor initial quality.
Personally, I would try a new or fabricated bracket of more strength.
I tend toward fabricated, because it would give me an excuse to buy a
drill press and a band saw. Others might go for welding gear.
But you have to remove that drywall to get at good fastening points.
Others may say fuggetaaboutit, and What, me worry?
Happy Thanksgiving!

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

You might be dealing with cheap original hardware.
I think I'm definitely dealing with cheap original hardware!

Never saw a pic that showed if the entire bracket was moving.
or it was just flexing.

I did snap a video - but it's hard to tell, in the video,
exactly what is flexing.
END PLATE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKjGDqz9wE
SPRING PLATE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNAfZP1bMQM

The spring is wound in the DOOR OPEN pic. Isn't that backwards?

This is a difficult thing to get my mind wrapped around.
Pardon me if the explanation below is difficult to decipher.

You are correct that the spring should be close to RELAXED
when the door is open. Well, the spring should be only a 1/4
or 1/2 turn tensioned at the door open position - but that's
close to being relaxed.

However, we have the enigma that force bending the spring
end plate happens ONLY in the door open position. Why?

This caused me a lot of confusion - but I think we have to
consider the situation at the exact point when the spring
was initially BOLTED to the hollow rod. The spring was
bolted to the hollow rod AFTER it grew 7 coils.

So, the paradox is that the FORCE on the end plate now
occurs NOT when the spring is tensioned - but when it is
RELAXED.

This is a counter intuitive conclusion - but it's the only
explanation that makes sense when trying to explain WHY the
force is greatest when the spring is in the relaxed position.

If I'm wrong - please correct me as I'm also trying to figure
out why the forces appear greatest when the spring is most
relaxed!

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

others have posted pics of their single spring doors
that show the spring bracket stiff.

Actually, according to Dan at DDM Garage Doors, no spring anchor
bracket is strong enough to withstand the forces from the relaxed
spring.

In fact, Dan told me by phone that he has seen entire cripple studs
ripped out of walls by these forces on the spring anchor bracket.

If I understood Dan correctly, what prevents the spring anchor
bracket from moving is NOT the mounting of the spring anchor bracket.
What prevents the spring anchor bracket from moving is the lack of
movement in the two bearing end plates.

I don't quite UNDERSTAND that - but - Dan told me there is no way
my spring anchor bracket would be moving unless the bearing end
plates were also moving. He did not know about the air under my
bearing end plates - so he surmised the fact that the bearing end
plates were moving solely from the fact the spring anchor bracket
was moving.

The interesting thing is that, while I can see the spring anchor
bracket movement ... I can not see the bearing end plate movement:
END PLATE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKjGDqz9wE
SPRING PLATE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNAfZP1bMQM

But, Dan knew that the bearing end plate was moving.

I don't quite understand this ... but Dan's experience must be
respected so I assume he's 100% correct. Especially since we all
realize there is air underneath both of the bearing end plates.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

Personally, I would try a new or fabricated bracket of more strength.

According to Dan, even a stronger spring anchor bracket would
eventually fail unless I also fixed the flexing of the bearing
end plates.

Of course, the spring anchor bracket is installed badly - so that's
not helping things.

But you have to remove that drywall to get at good fastening points.

When the parts arrive from DDM Garage Doors, I plan on moving the
spring anchor bracket angle iron 18" to the left so that it is
mounted directly onto the cripple stud.

At the same time, I will (somehow) shore up the bearing end plates
by either tying them to the studs a foot and a half distant ... or
I will tie them to the steel horizontal track.

I'm waiting for the parts from Dan at DDM Garage Doors, who has
already figured out what I need to do (even though I haven't figured
it out yet).

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

I made pumpkin pie, from scratch!
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11469271.jpg

The kids wouldn't touch it ... even though it used their carved
pumpkins for the guts ... and they loved the seeds ... but they
just wouldn't touch my 'experimental' pumpkin pie!

Oh well ... yet another family day!