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#1
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Linseed oil danger
Linseed oil and rags -- need to dispose properly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ereq...&feature=share Otherwise, you'll need home repair. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
#2
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Linseed oil danger
On Monday, August 27, 2012 8:00:39 AM UTC-7, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Linseed oil and rags -- need to dispose properly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ereq...&feature=share Otherwise, you'll need home repair. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Self-Heating In Yard Trimmings: Conditions Leading To Spontaneous Combustion http://www.pta.utk.edu/library/pdf/s..._trimmings.pdf |
#4
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Linseed oil danger
wrote in news:ba99b7ee-b731-424f-93ff-
: Self-Heating In Yard Trimmings: Conditions Leading To Spontaneous Combustion http://www.pta.utk.edu/library/pdf/s..._trimmings.pdf Same thing can happen inside hay bales if the hay is too wet. That's why Farmer Brown lets the hay sit for a bit, and flips it once, before baling it. I've even seen wet garbage get pretty warm inside. -- Tegger |
#5
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Linseed oil danger
Tegger wrote: wrote in news:ba99b7ee-b731-424f-93ff- : Self-Heating In Yard Trimmings: Conditions Leading To Spontaneous Combustion http://www.pta.utk.edu/library/pdf/s..._trimmings.pdf Same thing can happen inside hay bales if the hay is too wet. That's why Farmer Brown lets the hay sit for a bit, and flips it once, before baling it. I've even seen wet garbage get pretty warm inside. Hi, Same with Peat mos, compost pile, etc. |
#6
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Linseed oil danger
On Aug 27, 8:29*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
Tegger wrote: wrote in news:ba99b7ee-b731-424f-93ff- : Self-Heating In Yard Trimmings: Conditions Leading To Spontaneous Combustion http://www.pta.utk.edu/library/pdf/s..._trimmings.pdf Same thing can happen inside hay bales if the hay is too wet. That's why Farmer Brown lets the hay sit for a bit, and flips it once, before baling it. I've even seen wet garbage get pretty warm inside. Hi, Same with Peat mos, compost pile, etc. rude and crude paint shed at a agricultural equipment plant where I worked. Regular job was to scrape the floor to get rid of the paint build up - regular dumpster fires from it. Harry K |
#7
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For anyone that gives a $#|^ about it...
The reason that you can have a fire start in pile of rags damp with linseed oil, or a linseed oil based paint is that linseed oil is typically at least 50 percent linolenic acid, which is shown in this diagram: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nd_formula.PNG The double carbon=carbon bonds between the 9th and 10th, 12th and 13th and 15th and 16th carbon atoms means that the 9th, 10th, 12th, 13th, 15th and 16th carbon atoms will only have ONE hydrogen atom bonded to them, whereas, the carbon atoms in the /\/\/\ part of the molecule will each have two hydrogen atoms bonded to them. By definition, that means that linolenic acid is an "unsaturated" fatty acid cuz you can fit more hydrogen atoms onto it. And, each of those double carbon=carbon bonds is an "unsaturated site". There's a reaction that occurs in nature called "auto-oxidation", and what that means is that if an oxygen MOLECULE (O2) passes between two unsaturated sites in close proximity to one another, that oxygen molecule will spontaneously break apart to form two oxygen atoms, and each oxygen atom will form a C-O-C crosslink between those two unsaturated sites. It's that spotwelding together of unsaturated sites within a linseed oil molecule and between linseed oil molecules that causes linseed oil to transform from a liquid to a solid in about a month's time; or about 2 or 3 days in the case of "boiled" linseed oil, PROVIDED it's expose to oxygen. Now, as it turns out, that auto-oxydation reaction is an exo-thermic one. Energy is released when an oxygen molecule breaks apart and becomes a pair of C-O-C crosslinks, and it's that accumulation of exothermic heat that can raise the temperature inside a pile of rags damp with linseed oil above the kindling temperature of cotton. When that happens, the pile of rags spontaneously starts burning. PS#1: Window glazing putty is nothing more than linseed oil mixed with clay. And, just in the same way that a gallon of linseed oil based paint will form a solid film on it's surface during storage, the surface of glazing putty that's exposed to air during use will harden up by that same auto-oxidation reaction. Oil based paints will absorb up to 17 percent of their weight in oxygen molecules while you're painting. Once the oxygen has been absorbed into the paint, a film will form on that paint in storage. About the only way of avoiding the formation of that film would be to keep the paint cold (by putting it in your freezer) to prevent that auto-oxidation reaction from happening (or slow it down dramatically). PS#2: If you ever hear some monkey on TV talking about "Omega Three" fatty acids, all that means is that the THIRD carbon atom from the end of the fatty acid has a double carbon=carbon bond. It's just a different naming system. Chemists start counting the carbon atoms from the carboxyl group (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the left is labeled "1") while nutritionists and food scientists start counting the carbon atoms from the other end (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the right is labeled "omega" or "w". So, looking at the diagram of linolenic acid, the third carbon atom from the end marked with an "omega" or "w" symbol has a double carbon=carbon bond on it, so linolenic acid is an "omega-3" fatty acid. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid and an omega-9 fatty acid as well. So, what seemed to be so highly technical turns out to be pretty simple. Obviously, I'm not very busy right now... Last edited by nestork : August 28th 12 at 07:21 AM |
#8
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Linseed oil danger
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:29:08 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
Tegger wrote: wrote in news:ba99b7ee-b731-424f-93ff- : Self-Heating In Yard Trimmings: Conditions Leading To Spontaneous Combustion http://www.pta.utk.edu/library/pdf/s..._trimmings.pdf Same thing can happen inside hay bales if the hay is too wet. That's why Farmer Brown lets the hay sit for a bit, and flips it once, before baling it. I've even seen wet garbage get pretty warm inside. Hi, Same with Peat mos, compost pile, etc. I've had some manure burning underground for about 2 weeks now. I filled in a ditch with some horse manure, then covered it with soil, about a year ago. Two weeks ago I burned off some brush and other farm trash such as used twine and feed bags, along the edge of that filled in area. Since the weather has been dry, apparently the manure underground began burning. All I notice is small holes in the soil with little puffs of smoke coming out. We have had two significant rains since and it's still burning. The soil is sinking at the edge. It's not hurting anything, just stinks a bit. It cant spread to anything, so I'll just leave it burn until it goes out. I'll have to add more soil later though. I know of a much larger manure fire that happened about 15 years ago. The guy's barn was full of deep manure after he sold his cattle. The manure stayed in that barn for several years. One night a tornado destroyed the barn and several other farm sheds. He took a bulldozer and pushed all of it down into a deep ravine, and set it all on fire. It was one huge fire to see. This fire occurred in June. In November I went to his house for Thanksgiving, and that manure was still smoking and stinking. He said the smoke stopped in January after at least a foot of snow fell. |
#9
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Linseed oil danger
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 05:08:56 +0000, nestork
wrote: PS#2: If you ever hear some monkey on TV talking about "Omega Three" fatty acids, all that means is that the THIRD carbon atom from the end of the fatty acid has a double carbon=carbon bond. It's just a different naming system. Chemists start counting the carbon atoms from the carboxyl group (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the left is labeled "1") while nutritionists and food scientists start counting the carbon atoms from the other end (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the right is labeled "omega" or "w". So, looking at the diagram of linolenic acid, the third carbon atom from the end marked with an "omega" or "w" symbol has a double carbon=carbon bond on it, so linolenic acid is an "omega-3" fatty acid. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid and an omega-9 fatty acid as well. So, what seemed to be so highly technical turns out to be pretty simple. Obviously, I'm not very busy right now... This is a great conversation starter at a cocktail party. |
#10
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Linseed oil danger
Do chemical engineers party? I'm not sure I've seen many Dilberts there.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message ... linolenic acid is an "omega-3" fatty acid. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid and an omega-9 fatty acid as well. So, what seemed to be so highly technical turns out to be pretty simple. Obviously, I'm not very busy right now... This is a great conversation starter at a cocktail party. |
#11
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Linseed oil danger
Ed Pawlowski wrote in
: On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 05:08:56 +0000, nestork wrote: PS#2: If you ever hear some monkey on TV talking about "Omega Three" fatty acids, all that means is that the THIRD carbon atom from the end of the fatty acid has a double carbon=carbon bond. It's just a different naming system. Chemists start counting the carbon atoms from the carboxyl group (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the left is labeled "1") while nutritionists and food scientists start counting the carbon atoms from the other end (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the right is labeled "omega" or "w". So, looking at the diagram of linolenic acid, the third carbon atom from the end marked with an "omega" or "w" symbol has a double carbon=carbon bond on it, so linolenic acid is an "omega-3" fatty acid. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid and an omega-9 fatty acid as well. So, what seemed to be so highly technical turns out to be pretty simple. Obviously, I'm not very busy right now... This is a great conversation starter at a cocktail party. Hey, wait a minute. That stuff used to be my bread, butter etc. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#12
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Linseed oil danger
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in news:PT1%
: Do chemical engineers party? I'm not sure I've seen many Dilberts there. Biochemists do party. Very productively. The inspiration you get at a party! Priceless ... -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#13
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Quote:
No, if you want a great conversation starter to chat up the ladies at a party, ask them why their blue jeans are darker when they're wet. And, to prove that your explanation is correct, put a drop of water on a dry paper towel. The wet spot will look darker that the surrounding dry paper towel. Now, hold that paper towel up to the light and you'll find that the wet spot is now much brighter than the surrounding dry paper towel. Since cotton is almost pure cellulose and wood (and hence paper fibers) are mostly cellulose, whatever is making the paper towel darker when it's wet also makes blue denim darker when it's wet. If you want a great conversation starter if there are only guys at that party, ask them why latex paints darken in colour as they dry. Post again when you give up and I'll explain it all. |
#14
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Linseed oil danger
"nestork" wrote
Now, hold that paper towel up to the light and you'll find that the wet spot is now much brighter than the surrounding dry paper towel. Since cotton is almost pure cellulose and wood (and hence paper fibers) are mostly cellulose, whatever is making the paper towel darker when it's wet also makes blue denim darker when it's wet. You've hit on a scientific method for determining the candlepower of different light sources. Put one light source on one side of the paper towel, and put the other light source on the other side. Move them back and forth (toward and away from the paper towel). When you look at the towel and can't see the wet spot anymore, then you've determined the relative brightness of the two light sources. The one closer to the towel is the dimmer source. |
#15
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Linseed oil danger
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:06:53 +0000, nestork
wrote: 'Stormin Mormon[_7_ Wrote: ;2918061'] This is a great conversation starter at a cocktail party. No, if you want a great conversation starter to chat up the ladies at a party, ask them why their blue jeans are darker when they're wet. And, to prove that your explanation is correct, put a drop of water on a dry paper towel. The wet spot will look darker that the surrounding dry paper towel. Now, hold that paper towel up to the light and you'll find that the wet spot is now much brighter than the surrounding dry paper towel. Since cotton is almost pure cellulose and wood (and hence paper fibers) are mostly cellulose, whatever is making the paper towel darker when it's wet also makes blue denim darker when it's wet. If you want a great conversation starter if there are only guys at that party, ask them why latex paints darken in colour as they dry. Post again when you give up and I'll explain it all. That will be very soon. I'm guessing it has to do with reflectivity but I've not look up anything yet. |
#16
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David: It's a good guess, but I really don't know if that would be true or not.
If I had to guess, I'd guess that you'd probably always be able to distinguish the wet spot regardless of how you arranged your light sources. The fact that the spot is wet makes it look different and mere brightness and darkness isn't the only thing we see when we look at something. We see colour and texture and shape and the fact that it's a paper towel that's got a wet spot, and not a cloth towel with a wet spot. We don't just see brightness and darkness, we see everything. And, what would be the benefit to be gained by generating some sort of mathematical relationship between light brightness and distance from a wet paper towel? I mean, how could knowing that help a guy scam a sucker out of his money? Here, think about this: The real value in knowing why blue jeans are darker when they're wet is because the principle involved is exactly the same one that makes wet T-shirt contests possible. So, as a gentleman, you might explain to the nice lady at the cocktail party why her blue jeans are darker when they're wet, and then demonstrate that principle with a drop of water on a paper towel, and then point out that it's precisely that same principle at work that makes a lady's boobies visible when she's competing in a wet T-shirt contest. I used that pick up line on a female tortoise at the local zoo, and her head came out from under her shell ! ! ! Any other guesses? Last edited by nestork : August 29th 12 at 07:21 AM |
#17
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Linseed oil danger
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:08:56 AM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
About the only way of avoiding the formation of that film would be to keep the paint cold (by putting it in your freezer) to prevent that auto-oxidation reaction from happening (or slow it down dramatically). I'd bet topping off the can with nitrogen before sealing it would do the trick. I assume CO2 would work, but I'm less confident and not curious enough to research it at the moment. Maybe you could set the surface on fire, then lay the top on the can and let it seal itself. (Only if the can's mostly full, otherwise it might collapse.) |
#18
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Linseed oil danger
On 8/27/2012 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Linseed oil and rags -- need to dispose properly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ereq...&feature=share Otherwise, you'll need home repair. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org I visited a friend's house where he was doing some remodeling, etc. On his plastic laminate kitchen counter, there was a burn about 5" in diameter. I said something like, "placed at too hot pot there?" and he said, no. He had a linseed oil rag there and apparently it self combusted. Luckily, there wasn't any other combustibles to spread the fire, other than the small piece of rag itself. Lesson learned. |
#19
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Linseed oil danger
Ouch! Glad the plastic surface didn't light up.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Art Todesco" wrote in message ... I visited a friend's house where he was doing some remodeling, etc. On his plastic laminate kitchen counter, there was a burn about 5" in diameter. I said something like, "placed at too hot pot there?" and he said, no. He had a linseed oil rag there and apparently it self combusted. Luckily, there wasn't any other combustibles to spread the fire, other than the small piece of rag itself. Lesson learned. |
#20
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Quote:
But, that only works about 50% of the time because as long as the can is open, the linseed oil is absorbing oxygen from the air, and the more oxygen absorbed, the thicker the solid film that'll form in storage will be. Whenever using any kind of "oil based" coating, like a drying oil (like linseed oil, Tung oil or Danish oil) an alkyd paint, a real varnish or an alkyd based polyurethane "varnish", it's best to pour off what you think you'll need, put the lid loosely on the can, use a short piece of tubing to inject some very cold butane under the lid, wait for the butane to boil off into a gas, and then hammer the lid back on. That way you minimize the time of exposure of the liquid to air. It's important to wait a few second for the butane to boil off into a gas. If you don't, the butane will boil off into a gas inside the sealed can, and the lid can come off with quite a bit of force. |
#21
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Linseed oil danger
On Aug 29, 8:22*am, Art Todesco wrote:
On 8/27/2012 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote: Linseed oil and rags -- need to dispose properly. * * * *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ereq...&feature=share Otherwise, you'll need home repair. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus * *www.lds.org I visited a friend's house where he was doing some remodeling, etc. *On his plastic laminate kitchen counter, there was a burn about 5" in diameter. *I said something like, "placed at too hot pot there?" and he said, no. *He had a linseed oil rag there and apparently it self combusted. *Luckily, there wasn't any other combustibles to spread the fire, other than the small piece of rag itself. *Lesson learned. I hope the laminate was supposed to be in the "Before" set of remodeling pictures, not the "After". |
#22
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Linseed oil danger
"nestork" wrote in message ... Larry Fishel;2918641 Wrote: I'd bet topping off the can with nitrogen before sealing it would do the trick. I assume CO2 would work, but I'm less confident and not curious enough to research it at the moment. I use Ronson butane, which you can buy for refilling butane lighters at any smoke shop. Butane is heavier than air, so you'd think it would form a blanket on the surface of the paint and physically separate the paint from the air trapped in the can. But, that only works about 50% of the time because as long as the can is open, the linseed oil is absorbing oxygen from the air, and the more oxygen absorbed, the thicker the solid film that'll form in storage will be. Whenever using any kind of "oil based" coating, like a drying oil (like linseed oil, Tung oil or Danish oil) an alkyd paint, a real varnish or an alkyd based polyurethane "varnish", it's best to pour off what you think you'll need, put the lid loosely on the can, use a short piece of tubing to inject some very cold butane under the lid, wait for the butane to boil off into a gas, and then hammer the lid back on. That way you minimize the time of exposure of the liquid to air. It's important to wait a few second for the butane to boil off into a gas. If you don't, the butane will boil off into a gas inside the sealed can, and the lid can come off with quite a bit of force. -- nestork .... And a nice metal can being struck by a nice metal hammer doesn't set off a spark which ignites the whole mess with "quite a bit of force" as well? Tomsic |
#23
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Linseed oil danger
"nestork" wrote in message ... For anyone that gives a $#|^ about it... The reason that you can have a fire start in pile of rags damp with linseed oil, or a linseed oil based paint is that linseed oil is typically at least 50 percent linolenic acid, which is shown in this diagram: http://tinyurl.com/9mr5lba The double carbon=carbon bonds between the 9th and 10th, 12th and 13th and 15th and 16th carbon atoms means that the 9th, 10th, 12th, 13th, 15th and 16th carbon atoms will only have ONE hydrogen atom bonded to them, whereas, the carbon atoms in the /\/\/\ part of the molecule will each have two hydrogen atoms bonded to them. By definition, that means that linolenic acid is an "unsaturated" fatty acid cuz you can fit more hydrogen atoms onto it. And, each of those double carbon=carbon bonds is an "unsaturated site". There's a reaction that occurs in nature called "auto-oxidation", and what that means is that if an oxygen MOLECULE (O2) passes between two unsaturated sites in close proximity to one another, that oxygen molecule will spontaneously break apart to form two oxygen atoms, and each oxygen atom will form a C-O-C crosslink between those two unsaturated sites. It's that spotwelding together of unsaturated sites within a linseed oil molecule and between linseed oil molecules that causes linseed oil to transform from a liquid to a solid in about a month's time; or about 2 or 3 days in the case of "boiled" linseed oil, PROVIDED it's expose to oxygen. Now, as it turns out, that auto-oxydation reaction is an exo-thermic one. Energy is released when an oxygen molecule breaks apart and becomes a pair of C-O-C crosslinks, and it's that accumulation of exothermic heat that can raise the temperature inside a pile of rags damp with linseed oil above the kindling temperature of cotton. When that happens, the pile of rags spontaneously starts burning. PS#1: Window glazing putty is nothing more than linseed oil mixed with clay. And, just in the same way that a gallon of linseed oil based paint will form a solid film on it's surface during storage, the surface of glazing putty that's exposed to air during use will harden up by that same auto-oxidation reaction. Oil based paints will absorb up to 17 percent of their weight in oxygen molecules while you're painting. Once the oxygen has been absorbed into the paint, a film will form on that paint in storage. About the only way of avoiding the formation of that film would be to keep the paint cold (by putting it in your freezer) to prevent that auto-oxidation reaction from happening (or slow it down dramatically). PS#2: If you ever hear some monkey on TV talking about "Omega Three" fatty acids, all that means is that the THIRD carbon atom from the end of the fatty acid has a double carbon=carbon bond. It's just a different naming system. Chemists start counting the carbon atoms from the carboxyl group (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the left is labeled "1") while nutritionists and food scientists start counting the carbon atoms from the other end (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the right is labeled "omega" or "w". So, looking at the diagram of linolenic acid, the third carbon atom from the end marked with an "omega" or "w" symbol has a double carbon=carbon bond on it, so linolenic acid is an "omega-3" fatty acid. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid and an omega-9 fatty acid as well. So, what seemed to be so highly technical turns out to be pretty simple. Obviously, I'm not very busy right now... -- nestork Nice, thanks. --from someone who used to read chemistry books for fun, but then found electrical stuff more interesting. Tomsic |
#24
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Linseed oil danger
On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 18:53:03 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:
"nestork" wrote in message ... For anyone that gives a $#|^ about it... The reason that you can have a fire start in pile of rags damp with linseed oil, or a linseed oil based paint is that linseed oil is typically at least 50 percent linolenic acid, which is shown in this diagram: Been watching old TV programs? All detailed on "Life Without People". http://tinyurl.com/9mr5lba The double carbon=carbon bonds between the 9th and 10th, 12th and 13th and 15th and 16th carbon atoms means that the 9th, 10th, 12th, 13th, 15th and 16th carbon atoms will only have ONE hydrogen atom bonded to them, whereas, the carbon atoms in the /\/\/\ part of the molecule will each have two hydrogen atoms bonded to them. By definition, that means that linolenic acid is an "unsaturated" fatty acid cuz you can fit more hydrogen atoms onto it. And, each of those double carbon=carbon bonds is an "unsaturated site". There's a reaction that occurs in nature called "auto-oxidation", and what that means is that if an oxygen MOLECULE (O2) passes between two unsaturated sites in close proximity to one another, that oxygen molecule will spontaneously break apart to form two oxygen atoms, and each oxygen atom will form a C-O-C crosslink between those two unsaturated sites. It's that spotwelding together of unsaturated sites within a linseed oil molecule and between linseed oil molecules that causes linseed oil to transform from a liquid to a solid in about a month's time; or about 2 or 3 days in the case of "boiled" linseed oil, PROVIDED it's expose to oxygen. Now, as it turns out, that auto-oxydation reaction is an exo-thermic one. Energy is released when an oxygen molecule breaks apart and becomes a pair of C-O-C crosslinks, and it's that accumulation of exothermic heat that can raise the temperature inside a pile of rags damp with linseed oil above the kindling temperature of cotton. When that happens, the pile of rags spontaneously starts burning. PS#1: Window glazing putty is nothing more than linseed oil mixed with clay. And, just in the same way that a gallon of linseed oil based paint will form a solid film on it's surface during storage, the surface of glazing putty that's exposed to air during use will harden up by that same auto-oxidation reaction. Oil based paints will absorb up to 17 percent of their weight in oxygen molecules while you're painting. Once the oxygen has been absorbed into the paint, a film will form on that paint in storage. About the only way of avoiding the formation of that film would be to keep the paint cold (by putting it in your freezer) to prevent that auto-oxidation reaction from happening (or slow it down dramatically). PS#2: If you ever hear some monkey on TV talking about "Omega Three" fatty acids, all that means is that the THIRD carbon atom from the end of the fatty acid has a double carbon=carbon bond. It's just a different naming system. Chemists start counting the carbon atoms from the carboxyl group (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the left is labeled "1") while nutritionists and food scientists start counting the carbon atoms from the other end (which is why the furthest carbon atom to the right is labeled "omega" or "w". So, looking at the diagram of linolenic acid, the third carbon atom from the end marked with an "omega" or "w" symbol has a double carbon=carbon bond on it, so linolenic acid is an "omega-3" fatty acid. It's also an omega-6 fatty acid and an omega-9 fatty acid as well. So, what seemed to be so highly technical turns out to be pretty simple. Obviously, I'm not very busy right now... -- nestork Nice, thanks. --from someone who used to read chemistry books for fun, but then found electrical stuff more interesting. Tomsic |
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