I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

On 03/24/2012 05:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

I believe it was mostly used in the mid-60s through mid-70s, but I
really don't know for sure.

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

It doesn't cause all the problems with corrosion, poor connections (due
to thermal expansion/contraction), and subsequent heat/fire due to the
resistance of the poor/corroded connections.

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

I'm not sure that there is a reliable way to tell without actually
seeing the ends of some wires. I would ask if the home moaner would let
you remove the cover to the breaker box.

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

I don't know, I do pretty much all electrical work myself.

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

Also check for grounding. About the time frame you mention is when
grounded Romex was introduced. Older houses may use ungrounded "rag"
wiring which while perfectly safe if in good condition will not provide
a grounding conductor which you'll really want to have to protect
today's electronics (lots of "surge strips" rely on the grounding
conductor to provide a path for diverted surge voltage.) I had a house
built in '47 or '48 w/o ground. Grandmother's house built in mid-50s
had ground, although non-grounding type receps.

Presence of grounding type receps and good test with pocket tester is no
assurance of proper wiring. My old house was "faked" with the ground
terminal bootlegged to the neutral at the receps, not legal, but it was
done - as I discovered to my chagrin when I started replacing old, worn
out receps that wouldn't hold a plug anymore. Not an easy fix.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

Not likely that any of the smaller conductors would be aluminum.
Possibly the larger conductors like the service entrance, range circuit,
central air circuit, or electric dryer circuit, may be aluminum. There
is no problem with larger aluminum conductors, only the 12 and 10 gauge,
that was used for general lighting and outlets. You should be able to
ask the seller, or broker to find out what's in the house.
Unless the cable is type AC (BX), there is a possibility that it's non
grounding Romex, which can be a pain in certain circumstances, none of
which should prevent you from buying the house.

On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--

On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?


If you are considering purchasing the home make it non-negotiable that
an inspector of your choice address your concerns beforehand. If that is
rejected then walk ... no run, they are hiding something.

As a former substation transformer designer I assure you there are only
two ways of making reliable connections using aluminum conductors. One
is to acid treat, copper plate the aluminum, and then bolt aluminum to
copper bus bars together. Inside a transformer this connection is
submerged in oil and can still fail. Aluminum to aluminum connections
must be welded together to be completely safe. Obviously you will find
none of that in household wiring. Crimping or twisting aluminum to
aluminum or aluminum to copper connections will eventually fail due to
corrosion.

HTH,
John

On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--

On 3/24/2012 7:04 PM, John wrote:
On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?


If you are considering purchasing the home make it non-negotiable that
an inspector of your choice address your concerns beforehand. If that is
rejected then walk ... no run, they are hiding something.

As a former substation transformer designer I assure you there are only
two ways of making reliable connections using aluminum conductors. One
is to acid treat, copper plate the aluminum, and then bolt aluminum to
copper bus bars together. Inside a transformer this connection is
submerged in oil and can still fail. Aluminum to aluminum connections
must be welded together to be completely safe. Obviously you will find
none of that in household wiring. Crimping or twisting aluminum to
aluminum or aluminum to copper connections will eventually fail due to
corrosion.

HTH,
John

The vast majority of residential electrical services use aluminum
conductors. They're generally clamped down in set screw connectors using
a little anti-ox paste, and hold up just fine.

On 03/24/2012 06:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--

Not sure how it works in the OP's area, but no home inspector that I've
seen is going to remove the cover to the breaker panel and/or a recep
cover plate. All they can do is plug in a tester and make sure that all
the right lights light up.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:50:44 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 03/24/2012 06:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--

Not sure how it works in the OP's area, but no home inspector that I've
seen is going to remove the cover to the breaker panel and/or a recep
cover plate. All they can do is plug in a tester and make sure that all
the right lights light up.

The home inspector I just hired took both covers off and took pretty pictures
to go in the scrap book he put together of the house. ;-)

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Not sure how it works in the OP's area, but no home inspector that I've
seen is going to remove the cover to the breaker panel and/or a recep
cover plate. All they can do is plug in a tester and make sure that all
the right lights light up.



About 7 years ago I bought a house and the inspector took off the breaker
panel cover to check the wiring. I watched him do it and then he went
around with the plug in tester .
I did not have to have the house inspected, but I thought it was a good
idea. I was not worried about the small things he found, but needed to see
if anything major need work.
This was in the middle of North Carolina.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:33:57 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Not sure how it works in the OP's area, but no home inspector that I've
seen is going to remove the cover to the breaker panel and/or a recep
cover plate. All they can do is plug in a tester and make sure that all
the right lights light up.



About 7 years ago I bought a house and the inspector took off the breaker
panel cover to check the wiring. I watched him do it and then he went
around with the plug in tester .
I did not have to have the house inspected, but I thought it was a good
idea. I was not worried about the small things he found, but needed to see
if anything major need work.
This was in the middle of North Carolina.

Yes, the house we just bought (actually, closing is next week) is in very good
shape but it's a foreclosure (Fannie owned) and it wasn't a major decision to
spend $350 for someone to spend a few hours looking for things I missed in
the, maybe 1/2 hour I'd spent looking at the house. He did find a few things
that I'll want to take care of quickly but nothing major. He did find that
the water heater was burned out. The morons who Fannie hired to winterize the
house didn't turn it off before draining it - poof!. We got her to fix that
problem, since they caused it.

On 3/24/12 6:04 PM, John wrote:

As a former substation transformer designer I assure you there are only
two ways of making reliable connections using aluminum conductors. One
is to acid treat, copper plate the aluminum, and then bolt aluminum to
copper bus bars together. Inside a transformer this connection is
submerged in oil and can still fail. Aluminum to aluminum connections
must be welded together to be completely safe. Obviously you will find
none of that in household wiring. Crimping or twisting aluminum to
aluminum or aluminum to copper connections will eventually fail due to
corrosion.

HTH,
John

A big share of underground wiring for irrigation systems/wells
is aluminum. That wiring supplies power to the three phase motors.
The motors for the wells are usually 3ø 480 VAC. Most are 50 to 100 hp.
There aren't that many failures in the actual connections at the
panels. Most of the ones I've seen are caused by rodents or lightning.
I don't know if I'd want AL house wiring but it works well where I've
seen it used. Anti oxidant and proper connectors seem to make it ok.

On 03/24/2012 08:33 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:50:44 -0400, Nate wrote:

On 03/24/2012 06:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--

Not sure how it works in the OP's area, but no home inspector that I've
seen is going to remove the cover to the breaker panel and/or a recep
cover plate. All they can do is plug in a tester and make sure that all
the right lights light up.

The home inspector I just hired took both covers off and took pretty pictures
to go in the scrap book he put together of the house. ;-)

Both the inspector that did the inspection before I bought my house and
the one that did it for the eventual buyers said that they weren't
*allowed* to do so. State law, or just some kind of organization thing?
I don't know.

I really wish the first guy would have done so however, I would have
negotiated down when I saw that the "updated wiring" was an illegal hack
job.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 03/24/2012 08:46 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 3/24/12 6:04 PM, John wrote:

As a former substation transformer designer I assure you there are only
two ways of making reliable connections using aluminum conductors. One
is to acid treat, copper plate the aluminum, and then bolt aluminum to
copper bus bars together. Inside a transformer this connection is
submerged in oil and can still fail. Aluminum to aluminum connections
must be welded together to be completely safe. Obviously you will find
none of that in household wiring. Crimping or twisting aluminum to
aluminum or aluminum to copper connections will eventually fail due to
corrosion.

HTH,
John

A big share of underground wiring for irrigation systems/wells is
aluminum. That wiring supplies power to the three phase motors. The
motors for the wells are usually 3ø 480 VAC. Most are 50 to 100 hp.
There aren't that many failures in the actual connections at the panels.
Most of the ones I've seen are caused by rodents or lightning.
I don't know if I'd want AL house wiring but it works well where I've
seen it used. Anti oxidant and proper connectors seem to make it ok.



The wiring itself isn't bad but the connections to typical light
fixtures, receptacles, etc. certainly can be.

http://www.nachi.org/aluminum-wiring.htm

The OP is correct to be concerned.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:54:24 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 03/24/2012 08:33 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:50:44 -0400, Nate wrote:

On 03/24/2012 06:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--

Not sure how it works in the OP's area, but no home inspector that I've
seen is going to remove the cover to the breaker panel and/or a recep
cover plate. All they can do is plug in a tester and make sure that all
the right lights light up.

The home inspector I just hired took both covers off and took pretty pictures
to go in the scrap book he put together of the house. ;-)

Both the inspector that did the inspection before I bought my house and
the one that did it for the eventual buyers said that they weren't
*allowed* to do so. State law, or just some kind of organization thing?
I don't know.

Sounds bogus to me, unless you live where it requires a union thug to wipe
your bottom. I'm pretty sure all the inspectors I've used when I've bought
have pulled the entrance panel. One of the houses I sold was to a relocation
company. Their inspector pulled the panel cover during his inspection, too (I
had to replace the "tied" breakers).

I really wish the first guy would have done so however, I would have
negotiated down when I saw that the "updated wiring" was an illegal hack
job.

It's such a simple and important thing.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Both the inspector that did the inspection before I bought my house and
the one that did it for the eventual buyers said that they weren't
*allowed* to do so. State law, or just some kind of organization thing?
I don't know.

I really wish the first guy would have done so however, I would have
negotiated down when I saw that the "updated wiring" was an illegal hack
job.

I'm just glad the kid that installed all the grounded outlets with no ground
in the house I bought wasn't smart enough to figure out that he could fool
the tester by tying the ground socket to the neutral. It would be really
nice if someone developed a plug-in tester that could catch that. There has
to be a measurable difference between a real ground going to the socket and
a pigtailed neutral that's detectable at the outlet.

I doubt your seller was the first SOB to pull that trick and he won't be the
last. There are millions of houses that still have ungrounded wiring. I
have a new tester with a GFCI function. If I get a minute, I might wire up
an outlet to see what the tester reveals and what I can determine with my
digital meter. A real ground connection should have a lot more capacitance
that a pigtailed neutral.

I've asked to pull switch covers (three wallswitch boxes with blank covers
was too much mystery for me to stand) before and people really, really balk.
I can see their point. You could damage something accidentally - and
perhaps in the mind of a paranoid seller purposely and use it to negotiate a
lower price. The inspector we hired wouldn't remove the cover of the
circuit panel either but pointed out that some serious hack work was visible
entering the box from the side. The ungrounded grounded outlets were enough
to knock a few thousand off the purchase price.

--
Bobby G.

On Mar 24, 8:19*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

stuff snipped

Both the inspector that did the inspection before I bought my house and
the one that did it for the eventual buyers said that they weren't
*allowed* to do so. *State law, or just some kind of organization thing?
* I don't know.

I really wish the first guy would have done so however, I would have
negotiated down when I saw that the "updated wiring" was an illegal hack
job.

I'm just glad the kid that installed all the grounded outlets with no ground
in the house I bought wasn't smart enough to figure out that he could fool
the tester by tying the ground socket to the neutral. *It would be really
nice if someone developed a plug-in tester that could catch that. *There has
to be a measurable difference between a real ground going to the socket and
a pigtailed neutral that's detectable at the outlet.

I doubt your seller was the first SOB to pull that trick and he won't be the
last. *There are millions of houses that still have ungrounded wiring. *I
have a new tester with a GFCI function. *If I get a minute, I might wire up
an outlet to see what the tester reveals and what I can determine with my
digital meter. *A real ground connection should have a lot more capacitance
that a pigtailed neutral.

I've asked to pull switch covers (three wallswitch boxes with blank covers
was too much mystery for me to stand) before and people really, really balk.
I can see their point. *You could damage something accidentally - and
perhaps in the mind of a paranoid seller purposely and use it to negotiate a
lower price. *The inspector we hired wouldn't remove the cover of the
circuit panel either but pointed out that some serious hack work was visible
entering the box from the side. *The ungrounded grounded outlets were enough
to knock a few thousand off the purchase price.

--
Bobby G.

There should be some measureable finite resistance between the neutral
and ground terminals of a correctly wired outlet, and virtually no
resistance between the neutral and ground if they are tied together at
the outlet itself. I don't know what those numbers are as I have
never had to actually measure this.

On 3/24/2012 6:58 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 03/24/2012 08:46 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 3/24/12 6:04 PM, John wrote:

As a former substation transformer designer I assure you there are only
two ways of making reliable connections using aluminum conductors. One
is to acid treat, copper plate the aluminum, and then bolt aluminum to
copper bus bars together. Inside a transformer this connection is
submerged in oil and can still fail. Aluminum to aluminum connections
must be welded together to be completely safe. Obviously you will find
none of that in household wiring. Crimping or twisting aluminum to
aluminum or aluminum to copper connections will eventually fail due to
corrosion.

HTH,
John

A big share of underground wiring for irrigation systems/wells is
aluminum. That wiring supplies power to the three phase motors. The
motors for the wells are usually 3ø 480 VAC. Most are 50 to 100 hp.
There aren't that many failures in the actual connections at the panels.
Most of the ones I've seen are caused by rodents or lightning.
I don't know if I'd want AL house wiring but it works well where I've
seen it used. Anti oxidant and proper connectors seem to make it ok.



The wiring itself isn't bad but the connections to typical light
fixtures, receptacles, etc. certainly can be.

http://www.nachi.org/aluminum-wiring.htm

The OP is correct to be concerned.

nate


I agree that connections are the problem. As RBM said, the problem is
esentially only with #12 and #10 wire on 15 and 20A branch circuits.
Aluminum is in common use in larger sizes.

About 1971 UL removed the listing for wire and devices (receptacles,
switches,...) then came out with new standards. The new devices were
marked "CO/ALR". According to gfretwell the new wire was harder and not
as likely to extrude/creep. (Most of the wire in use is "old technology".)

The CPSC appears to have been moving toward a recall (which would have
been enormously expensive), but in the inevitable court case wiring was
ruled to not be a "consumer product" and thus not under the purview of
the CPSC.

If anyone is dealing with these aluminum branch circuits,
recommendations on making connections, based on extensive research done
for the CPSC, is available at:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
A basic element is cleaning the wire to remove the oxide and applying
antioxide paste.

--
bud--

On 3/24/2012 6:14 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--


A lot of early copper house wiring was tinned because connections were
soldered then wrapped with friction tape. I've found this in a lot of
older homes during remodels and the insulation appears to be tar
impregnated cloth which will often crumble away when disturbed
especially if it's been exposed to heat as in light fixtures. I worked
for an electrical supplier in the early 1970's during the oil shortage
and a copper shortage when many electrical manufacturers switched to
aluminum for Romex and they added a lot of fillers to petroleum sourced
plastic insulation to keep the electrical industry alive. I was glad I
owned a car that had an 1108cc engine during that time. The problem with
aluminum house wiring showed up even then because the manufactured
housing industry was using a lot of it and when the trailers bounced
down the highways for delivery, the aluminum wiring had a tendency to
fail because it lacked the ductile properties of copper and could not
tolerate mechanical and thermal stress the way copper could.
Electricians of the day weren't used to working with small aluminum
conductors and the connections would often burn up setting homes,
especially mobile homes on fire. Over the years I've found a lot of
failed connections in aluminum Romex and had to add the special
connectors and copper jumpers in order to replace damaged wiring
devices. The special connectors containing antioxidant grease are
available at most home improvement stores and you can use them to add
copper jumpers to your aluminum house wiring.

TDD

On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?
I bought the house I'm currently living in in 1987. It was built in
1970 and has aluminum wiring. At the time of sale I required the seller
to swap out every wall receptacle and switch with COALAR units and the
work to be done by a licensed electrician.

Every house in my subdivision was built at the same time with the same
wiring. Neither me nor any of my neighbors (to my knowledge) has had
any problems related to the aluminum wiring. We all have circuit
breaker panels.

I used to take off the face plates every year and check to see if the
wire loops were loosening under the screw heads but gave up that
exercise after about 3 years when none were noted to have become loose.

I'm well aware of the supposed risks associated with aluminum wiring and
I would have preferred to have copper. However, my experience has not
been bad. I suspect that if the homeowner respects the amperage ratings
of each breaker circuit and avoids overloads, they will not have
problems. Copper is more forgiving of overloads due to lower resistance
and therefore less heating and attendant expansion/contraction at
connections.

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:23:46 -0400, Peter wrote:

On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?
I bought the house I'm currently living in in 1987. It was built in
1970 and has aluminum wiring. At the time of sale I required the seller
to swap out every wall receptacle and switch with COALAR units and the
work to be done by a licensed electrician.

Every house in my subdivision was built at the same time with the same
wiring. Neither me nor any of my neighbors (to my knowledge) has had
any problems related to the aluminum wiring. We all have circuit
breaker panels.

I used to take off the face plates every year and check to see if the
wire loops were loosening under the screw heads but gave up that
exercise after about 3 years when none were noted to have become loose.

I'm well aware of the supposed risks associated with aluminum wiring and
I would have preferred to have copper. However, my experience has not
been bad. I suspect that if the homeowner respects the amperage ratings
of each breaker circuit and avoids overloads, they will not have
problems. Copper is more forgiving of overloads due to lower resistance
and therefore less heating and attendant expansion/contraction at
connections.


Thanks Peter. What is COALAR switches? As best as I could see on
the net it's copper aluminum automation ready switches and I have no
idea what that means? One thing I've learned is that this house
"supposedly" per the owner has copper wiring but personally I don't
trust it to be so unless I can verify it. He did say that in the
early 90's it has a small fire on the roof at the garage end of house
due to a lightening strike. I don't know if that has any connection
to the wiring and since I don't know this owner, I'm suspicious to say
the least.

On 3/25/2012 3:12 PM, Doug wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:23:46 -0400, wrote:

On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?
I bought the house I'm currently living in in 1987. It was built in
1970 and has aluminum wiring. At the time of sale I required the seller
to swap out every wall receptacle and switch with COALAR units and the
work to be done by a licensed electrician.

Every house in my subdivision was built at the same time with the same
wiring. Neither me nor any of my neighbors (to my knowledge) has had
any problems related to the aluminum wiring. We all have circuit
breaker panels.

I used to take off the face plates every year and check to see if the
wire loops were loosening under the screw heads but gave up that
exercise after about 3 years when none were noted to have become loose.

I'm well aware of the supposed risks associated with aluminum wiring and
I would have preferred to have copper. However, my experience has not
been bad. I suspect that if the homeowner respects the amperage ratings
of each breaker circuit and avoids overloads, they will not have
problems. Copper is more forgiving of overloads due to lower resistance
and therefore less heating and attendant expansion/contraction at
connections.


Thanks Peter. What is COALAR switches? As best as I could see on
the net it's copper aluminum automation ready switches and I have no
idea what that means? One thing I've learned is that this house
"supposedly" per the owner has copper wiring but personally I don't
trust it to be so unless I can verify it. He did say that in the
early 90's it has a small fire on the roof at the garage end of house
due to a lightening strike. I don't know if that has any connection
to the wiring and since I don't know this owner, I'm suspicious to say
the least.

Those are devices with connectors made to accept aluminum.
As practically everyone has responded, the house in question is simply
to old for you to be concerned about small gauge aluminum building wire.

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On Mar 24, 8:19 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

stuff snipped

Both the inspector that did the inspection before I bought my house and
the one that did it for the eventual buyers said that they weren't
*allowed* to do so. State law, or just some kind of organization thing?
I don't know.

I really wish the first guy would have done so however, I would have
negotiated down when I saw that the "updated wiring" was an illegal hack
job.

I'm just glad the kid that installed all the grounded outlets with no
ground
in the house I bought wasn't smart enough to figure out that he could fool
the tester by tying the ground socket to the neutral. It would be really
nice if someone developed a plug-in tester that could catch that. There
has
to be a measurable difference between a real ground going to the socket
and
a pigtailed neutral that's detectable at the outlet.

I doubt your seller was the first SOB to pull that trick and he won't be
the
last. There are millions of houses that still have ungrounded wiring. I
have a new tester with a GFCI function. If I get a minute, I might wire up
an outlet to see what the tester reveals and what I can determine with my
digital meter. A real ground connection should have a lot more capacitance
that a pigtailed neutral.

I've asked to pull switch covers (three wallswitch boxes with blank covers
was too much mystery for me to stand) before and people really, really
balk.
I can see their point. You could damage something accidentally - and
perhaps in the mind of a paranoid seller purposely and use it to negotiate
a
lower price. The inspector we hired wouldn't remove the cover of the
circuit panel either but pointed out that some serious hack work was
visible
entering the box from the side. The ungrounded grounded outlets were
enough
to knock a few thousand off the purchase price.

--
Bobby G.

There should be some measureable finite resistance between the neutral
and ground terminals of a correctly wired outlet, and virtually no
resistance between the neutral and ground if they are tied together at
the outlet itself. I don't know what those numbers are as I have
never had to actually measure this.

Thanks for your input. I hooked up a three wire line cord to an outlet to
see if there was any detectable brightness difference in the LED indicators
due to that resistance. I was hoping the tester might have some way of
detecting the "false ground" and could tell if is was hooked up correctly v.
someone pigtailing the neutral wire to the ground terminal. There wasn't
any detectable change in brightness and the tester reported the jury-rigged
neutral pigtail to ground as OK. )-: This was on one of the longest wire
runs in the house, too.

I'll do a little more research to try to see if there's a way to use a
multi-meter attached to a line cord to detect the "forged" connection. I'd
like to be able to detect the condition Nate's described with a plug-in test
device that doesn't require shutting down the appropriate breaker at the
panel. People get hinky about buyers or inspectors opening circuit panels
or even turning valves on the plumbing.

A few weeks ago on the People's Court there was a case of a guy buying a
boat who wouldn't consummate the contract unless the boat owner allowed him
to pull the head on the engine to investigate a bad compression reading he
got. The boatowner balked (I would have, too - not even sure I would have
let him pull the spark plugs to test compression in the first place!). He
then sold the boat to someone who did not care about the engine (it was
priced to sell, as they say). The first purchaser sued, trying to force the
boatowner to cancel the second sale and honor the first agreement. The
judge laughed him out of court.

--
Bobby G.

"bud--" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

IMHO it is not a good idea for a rather untrained person to remove a
panel cover. It may be an OSHA violation - the person is not likely a
"qualified person". The hazards of not just shock, but arc-flash, are
not adequately appreciated.

You should see the look on my wife's face when I pull the circuit panel
cover off. (-: I used to leave it off when I was working on a re-wire but
now I always cover it up when I am finished for the day. It's only four
screws and replacing the cover, although sometimes a PITA, has high SAF.
It's been my experience that women are way too paranoid about electrical
dangers and men aren't paranoid enough.

It does seem that in some jurisdictions that inspectors are not allowed to
remove the cover. That may also be related to whether the inspector has an
electrician's license. Some do. I've gotten the stinkeye from sellers when
I insist on testing all the outlets with my little 3 prong tester, but they
usually agree, if only because they want to know if everything's working
correctly, too.

Beyond that, sellers get very antsy about "deep probes" of any kind. As you
might imagine, my late father, being a forensic and materials engineer,
wanted to get inside everything - furnaces, water heaters, AC units, etc.
before closing a deal. That's probably why I know how nervous those sorts
of inspections make sellers.

--
Bobby G.

"Peter" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

I'm well aware of the supposed risks associated with aluminum wiring and
I would have preferred to have copper. However, my experience has not
been bad. I suspect that if the homeowner respects the amperage ratings
of each breaker circuit and avoids overloads, they will not have
problems. Copper is more forgiving of overloads due to lower resistance
and therefore less heating and attendant expansion/contraction at
connections.

A lot depends on specifics. I've found even copper wiring "backstabs" to
loosen up if they're mounted on an outside wall (thermal
expansion/contraction) or near a vibration source (dishwasher/disposal).
Even an outlet that simply sees a lot of use can have wires loosen up from
the vibration. Living on a busy street with lots of truck traffic can
seriously increase the susceptibility to vibration-related loosening of
connections. Hell, a few years ago an asphalt tamping machine knocked stuff
off shelves it vibrated the ground so much.

From what I've read, aluminum wiring problems occur when there are several
contributing factors such as shoddy work, overloading, excessive vibration
or accidental damage. Wired correctly from the start, as I assume your
house was, there seem to be very few problems with AL wiring. Sadly, some
of the exceptions have resulted in spectacular fires and thus have brought
all AL wiring under suspicion.

As noted, AL is used in feeders and many other situations without problems.

I'd still use copper over AL whenever I had a choice, though. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Mar 25, 11:16*pm, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...
On Mar 24, 8:19 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:





"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

stuff snipped

Both the inspector that did the inspection before I bought my house and
the one that did it for the eventual buyers said that they weren't
*allowed* to do so. State law, or just some kind of organization thing?
I don't know.

I really wish the first guy would have done so however, I would have
negotiated down when I saw that the "updated wiring" was an illegal hack
job.

I'm just glad the kid that installed all the grounded outlets with no
ground
in the house I bought wasn't smart enough to figure out that he could fool
the tester by tying the ground socket to the neutral. It would be really
nice if someone developed a plug-in tester that could catch that. There
has
to be a measurable difference between a real ground going to the socket
and
a pigtailed neutral that's detectable at the outlet.

I doubt your seller was the first SOB to pull that trick and he won't be
the
last. There are millions of houses that still have ungrounded wiring. I
have a new tester with a GFCI function. If I get a minute, I might wire up
an outlet to see what the tester reveals and what I can determine with my
digital meter. A real ground connection should have a lot more capacitance
that a pigtailed neutral.

I've asked to pull switch covers (three wallswitch boxes with blank covers
was too much mystery for me to stand) before and people really, really
balk.
I can see their point. You could damage something accidentally - and
perhaps in the mind of a paranoid seller purposely and use it to negotiate
a
lower price. The inspector we hired wouldn't remove the cover of the
circuit panel either but pointed out that some serious hack work was
visible
entering the box from the side. The ungrounded grounded outlets were
enough
to knock a few thousand off the purchase price.

--
Bobby G.

There should be some measureable finite resistance between the neutral
and ground terminals of a correctly wired outlet, and virtually no
resistance between the neutral and ground if they are tied together at
the outlet itself. *I don't know what those numbers are as I have
never had to actually measure this.

Thanks for your input. *I hooked up a three wire line cord to an outlet to
see if there was any detectable brightness difference in the LED indicators
due to that resistance. * *I was hoping the tester might have some way of
detecting the "false ground" and could tell if is was hooked up correctly v.
someone pigtailing the neutral wire to the ground terminal. *There wasn't
any detectable change in brightness and the tester reported the jury-rigged
neutral pigtail to ground as OK. *)-: *This was on one of the longest wire
runs in the house, too.

I'll do a little more research to try to see if there's a way to use a
multi-meter attached to a line cord to detect the "forged" connection. *I'd
like to be able to detect the condition Nate's described with a plug-in test
device that doesn't require shutting down the appropriate breaker at the
panel. *People get hinky about buyers or inspectors opening circuit panels
or even turning valves on the plumbing.



well you could disconnect all the white lines at the breaker box then
check with a light bulb between hot black and ground.

hacked ground to neutral wouldnt power the bulb, use a 60 watt
incandescent minimum.

doesnt help home inspectors but it would detect hacks

"bob haller" wrote in message
news:2b3da6e2-4fdc-45ea-8658-

stuff snipped

Thanks for your input. I hooked up a three wire line cord to an outlet to
see if there was any detectable brightness difference in the LED
indicators
due to that resistance. I was hoping the tester might have some way of
detecting the "false ground" and could tell if is was hooked up correctly
v.
someone pigtailing the neutral wire to the ground terminal. There wasn't
any detectable change in brightness and the tester reported the
jury-rigged
neutral pigtail to ground as OK. )-: This was on one of the longest wire
runs in the house, too.

I'll do a little more research to try to see if there's a way to use a
multi-meter attached to a line cord to detect the "forged" connection. I'd
like to be able to detect the condition Nate's described with a plug-in
test
device that doesn't require shutting down the appropriate breaker at the
panel. People get hinky about buyers or inspectors opening circuit panels
or even turning valves on the plumbing.


well you could disconnect all the white lines at the breaker box then
check with a light bulb between hot black and ground. hacked ground to
neutral wouldnt power the bulb, use a 60 watt incandescent minimum. doesnt
help home inspectors but it would detect hacks

I can see the look on a seller's face when I start disconnecting the wires
from the neutral buss bars! (-:

I believe inspection of a few outlets would reveal what I want to know. But
I'd rather have a plug-in tester that could detect bozos pulling a "neutral
as ground" scam.

--
Bobby G.

On 3/25/2012 3:12 PM, Doug wrote:

Thanks Peter. What is COALAR switches? As best as I could see on
the net it's copper aluminum automation ready switches and I have no
idea what that means? One thing I've learned is that this house
"supposedly" per the owner has copper wiring but personally I don't
trust it to be so unless I can verify it. He did say that in the
early 90's it has a small fire on the roof at the garage end of house
due to a lightening strike. I don't know if that has any connection
to the wiring and since I don't know this owner, I'm suspicious to say
the least.

I'm not an electrician. Rather than cut and paste numerous texts or
post a list of web links, I'll simply mention that my previous post used
a non-standard abbreviation for the hardware. It is better known as
CO/ALR. I hate to mention specific brands or search engines, but using
the well known search engine that begins with G, the first page of hits
disclosed several hits (a) describing the hardware and the application
for it, (b) links to well known electrical supply manufacturers current
selling the hardware, and (c) big box and web retailers selling the
hardware. I'm sure you can find all you need to satisfy yourself.

P.S. The "proper" way to deal with a home with AL wiring is highly
controversial depending upon what you read and who is speaking for their
own self-interest. It ranges from minimalist mitigation (CO/ALR)
hardware to a complete rip-out and replacement with CU wiring.
Professional high pressure crimping to CU pigtails for every connection
and junction is a popular but quite expensive intermediate way to deal
with the issue. My biggest problem recently was finding a licensed
electrician who was knowledgeable and felt competent and willing to work
on my wiring. The first few a I called said they wouldn't work on it
for fear of future litigation from me in the event of an electrical
fire, or because they had no experience working on it and couldn't take
the time to get trained.

"Doug" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:23:46 -0400, Peter wrote:

On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?
I bought the house I'm currently living in in 1987. It was built in
1970 and has aluminum wiring. At the time of sale I required the seller
to swap out every wall receptacle and switch with COALAR units and the
work to be done by a licensed electrician.

Every house in my subdivision was built at the same time with the same
wiring. Neither me nor any of my neighbors (to my knowledge) has had
any problems related to the aluminum wiring. We all have circuit
breaker panels.

I used to take off the face plates every year and check to see if the
wire loops were loosening under the screw heads but gave up that
exercise after about 3 years when none were noted to have become loose.

I'm well aware of the supposed risks associated with aluminum wiring and
I would have preferred to have copper. However, my experience has not
been bad. I suspect that if the homeowner respects the amperage ratings
of each breaker circuit and avoids overloads, they will not have
problems. Copper is more forgiving of overloads due to lower resistance
and therefore less heating and attendant expansion/contraction at
connections.

Doug, there was a report published in 2008 by Underwriters Laboratories and
the National Fire Protection Association titled, "Residential Electrical
System Aging Reserch Project". The researchers tore apart 30 homes aged
30-110 years and evaluated the wiring as they found it It's the best
information available on what to look for with respect to wiring in older
homes including some great pictures showing what you might find. The report
is free to download. Just Google the title.

Tomsic

On 3/25/2012 8:13 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:14 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--


A lot of early copper house wiring was tinned because connections were
soldered then wrapped with friction tape.

I read tinning was to protect the copper from the rubber insulation
(sulfur?). (I don't know.)

I've found this in a lot of
older homes during remodels and the insulation appears to be tar
impregnated cloth which will often crumble away when disturbed
especially if it's been exposed to heat as in light fixtures. I worked
for an electrical supplier in the early 1970's during the oil shortage
and a copper shortage when many electrical manufacturers switched to
aluminum for Romex and they added a lot of fillers to petroleum sourced
plastic insulation to keep the electrical industry alive. I was glad I
owned a car that had an 1108cc engine during that time. The problem with
aluminum house wiring showed up even then because the manufactured
housing industry was using a lot of it and when the trailers bounced
down the highways for delivery, the aluminum wiring had a tendency to
fail because it lacked the ductile properties of copper and could not
tolerate mechanical and thermal stress the way copper could.

Thermal expansion is part of the problem. The "old technology" aluminum
wire was too ductile - it would extrude and creep. Probably a larger
problem is an insulating aluminum oxide layer that very rapidly forms on
any 'clean' aluminum surface. The actual metal-to-metal contact area in
a connection may be very small. For large wires, tightening the
connection deforms the wire which breaks the oxide layer.

Electricians of the day weren't used to working with small aluminum
conductors and the connections would often burn up setting homes,
especially mobile homes on fire. Over the years I've found a lot of
failed connections in aluminum Romex and had to add the special
connectors and copper jumpers in order to replace damaged wiring
devices. The special connectors containing antioxidant grease are
available at most home improvement stores and you can use them to add
copper jumpers to your aluminum house wiring.

Another post has a link to:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
which was written by the engineer that supervised extensive testing of
aluminum connections for the CPSC. A basic element in connections is
abrading the wire to remove the oxide and applying antioxide paste. He
does not particularly like the Ideal 65 wirenuts that come with
antioxide paste in them. They are, last I heard, the only UL listed
wire nuts for aluminum. They are not more effective than some other
wirenuts with antioxide paste added, and have some negative features.

http://www.kinginnovation.com/produc...cts/alumiconn/
may be the best splice for small branch circuit aluminum wires. The
screws should dig through any oxide layer, like on larger aluminum wire
connections.

--
bud--

On 3/25/2012 9:38 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 25, 11:16 pm, "Robert
wrote:
"hr(bob) wrote in message

...
On Mar 24, 8:19 pm, "Robert wrote:





"Nate wrote in message

...

stuff snipped

Both the inspector that did the inspection before I bought my house and
the one that did it for the eventual buyers said that they weren't
*allowed* to do so. State law, or just some kind of organization thing?
I don't know.

I really wish the first guy would have done so however, I would have
negotiated down when I saw that the "updated wiring" was an illegal hack
job.

I'm just glad the kid that installed all the grounded outlets with no
ground
in the house I bought wasn't smart enough to figure out that he could fool
the tester by tying the ground socket to the neutral. It would be really
nice if someone developed a plug-in tester that could catch that. There
has
to be a measurable difference between a real ground going to the socket
and
a pigtailed neutral that's detectable at the outlet.

I doubt your seller was the first SOB to pull that trick and he won't be
the
last. There are millions of houses that still have ungrounded wiring. I
have a new tester with a GFCI function. If I get a minute, I might wire up
an outlet to see what the tester reveals and what I can determine with my
digital meter. A real ground connection should have a lot more capacitance
that a pigtailed neutral.

I've asked to pull switch covers (three wallswitch boxes with blank covers
was too much mystery for me to stand) before and people really, really
balk.
I can see their point. You could damage something accidentally - and
perhaps in the mind of a paranoid seller purposely and use it to negotiate
a
lower price. The inspector we hired wouldn't remove the cover of the
circuit panel either but pointed out that some serious hack work was
visible
entering the box from the side. The ungrounded grounded outlets were
enough
to knock a few thousand off the purchase price.

--
Bobby G.

There should be some measureable finite resistance between the neutral
and ground terminals of a correctly wired outlet, and virtually no
resistance between the neutral and ground if they are tied together at
the outlet itself. I don't know what those numbers are as I have
never had to actually measure this.

Thanks for your input. I hooked up a three wire line cord to an outlet to
see if there was any detectable brightness difference in the LED indicators
due to that resistance. I was hoping the tester might have some way of
detecting the "false ground" and could tell if is was hooked up correctly v.
someone pigtailing the neutral wire to the ground terminal. There wasn't
any detectable change in brightness and the tester reported the jury-rigged
neutral pigtail to ground as OK. )-: This was on one of the longest wire
runs in the house, too.

I'll do a little more research to try to see if there's a way to use a
multi-meter attached to a line cord to detect the "forged" connection. I'd
like to be able to detect the condition Nate's described with a plug-in test
device that doesn't require shutting down the appropriate breaker at the
panel. People get hinky about buyers or inspectors opening circuit panels
or even turning valves on the plumbing.

IMHO you are unlikely to come up with an easy way to find a H-N
connection at a receptacle. Meters and 3-light testers use very low
currents. H & N are connected at the panel which limits what can be done
to test.

You could try hr(bob)'s advice. But the (ground wire) - (panel N-G bond)
- (neutral wire) loop resistance is very low. Any current on the neutral
(or ground) can screw up the measurement. Contact resistance from meter
to the receptacle will be a problem.

My tester finds N-G receptacle connections and actually tests ground
wires. It is made by Ecos Electronics and they have probably not been
made for a long time. May be available from sources like ebay.

Looks like Ideal makes a tester with more features:
http://www.idealindustries.com/produ..._analyzers.jsp
Price probably over $300. But this is the type of device a home
inspector would use if they wanted to test N-G receptacle connections
or actual grounding.


well you could disconnect all the white lines at the breaker box then
check with a light bulb between hot black and ground.

hacked ground to neutral wouldnt power the bulb, use a 60 watt
incandescent minimum.

doesnt help home inspectors but it would detect hacks

Probably easier be to put a 200W bulb on a flasher and connect it H-G at
the receptacle. Use a clamp on ammeter to look for which wire in the
panel has the pulsing current. You can clamp multiple wires at the same
time.

--
bud--

On 3/25/2012 8:23 AM, Peter wrote:
On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

I bought the house I'm currently living in in 1987. It was built in 1970
and has aluminum wiring. At the time of sale I required the seller to
swap out every wall receptacle and switch with COALAR units and the work
to be done by a licensed electrician.

A minor problem is that electricians do not necessarily know what the
actual problems and fixes are.

If you are interested you can read:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
(also posted elsewhere). You will probably know more than electricians.
The advice is based on extensive research on aluminum connections.

Trivia note, the "R" in CO/ALR is "revised".


Every house in my subdivision was built at the same time with the same
wiring. Neither me nor any of my neighbors (to my knowledge) has had any
problems related to the aluminum wiring. We all have circuit breaker
panels.

I used to take off the face plates every year and check to see if the
wire loops were loosening under the screw heads but gave up that
exercise after about 3 years when none were noted to have become loose.

I'm well aware of the supposed risks associated with aluminum wiring and
I would have preferred to have copper. However, my experience has not
been bad. I suspect that if the homeowner respects the amperage ratings
of each breaker circuit and avoids overloads, they will not have
problems. Copper is more forgiving of overloads due to lower resistance
and therefore less heating and attendant expansion/contraction at
connections.

Resistance is not a factor. Aluminum wires have a similar resistance to
copper since they are larger - #12 aluminum on a 15A circuit, #10 on a 20A.

--
bud--

On 3/26/2012 12:41 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2012 8:13 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:14 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--


A lot of early copper house wiring was tinned because connections were
soldered then wrapped with friction tape.

I read tinning was to protect the copper from the rubber insulation
(sulfur?). (I don't know.)


As usual, the Budman is correct. According to the electrical wiring
historian, David E. Shapiro, without the tinning, the rubber coating
would have to be scraped off of the copper because of "gluing caused by
catalytic action. It certainly didn't hurt in the process of soldering
the conductors either.

I've found this in a lot of
older homes during remodels and the insulation appears to be tar
impregnated cloth which will often crumble away when disturbed
especially if it's been exposed to heat as in light fixtures. I worked
for an electrical supplier in the early 1970's during the oil shortage
and a copper shortage when many electrical manufacturers switched to
aluminum for Romex and they added a lot of fillers to petroleum sourced
plastic insulation to keep the electrical industry alive. I was glad I
owned a car that had an 1108cc engine during that time. The problem with
aluminum house wiring showed up even then because the manufactured
housing industry was using a lot of it and when the trailers bounced
down the highways for delivery, the aluminum wiring had a tendency to
fail because it lacked the ductile properties of copper and could not
tolerate mechanical and thermal stress the way copper could.

Thermal expansion is part of the problem. The "old technology" aluminum
wire was too ductile - it would extrude and creep. Probably a larger
problem is an insulating aluminum oxide layer that very rapidly forms on
any 'clean' aluminum surface. The actual metal-to-metal contact area in
a connection may be very small. For large wires, tightening the
connection deforms the wire which breaks the oxide layer.

Electricians of the day weren't used to working with small aluminum
conductors and the connections would often burn up setting homes,
especially mobile homes on fire. Over the years I've found a lot of
failed connections in aluminum Romex and had to add the special
connectors and copper jumpers in order to replace damaged wiring
devices. The special connectors containing antioxidant grease are
available at most home improvement stores and you can use them to add
copper jumpers to your aluminum house wiring.

Another post has a link to:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
which was written by the engineer that supervised extensive testing of
aluminum connections for the CPSC. A basic element in connections is
abrading the wire to remove the oxide and applying antioxide paste. He
does not particularly like the Ideal 65 wirenuts that come with
antioxide paste in them. They are, last I heard, the only UL listed wire
nuts for aluminum. They are not more effective than some other wirenuts
with antioxide paste added, and have some negative features.

http://www.kinginnovation.com/produc...cts/alumiconn/
may be the best splice for small branch circuit aluminum wires. The
screws should dig through any oxide layer, like on larger aluminum wire
connections.

On 3/26/2012 1:01 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2012 12:41 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2012 8:13 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:14 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the cost to
yourself after the sale.

--


A lot of early copper house wiring was tinned because connections were
soldered then wrapped with friction tape.

I read tinning was to protect the copper from the rubber insulation
(sulfur?). (I don't know.)


As usual, the Budman is correct. According to the electrical wiring
historian, David E. Shapiro, without the tinning, the rubber coating
would have to be scraped off of the copper because of "gluing caused by
catalytic action. It certainly didn't hurt in the process of soldering
the conductors either.


That's what I get for listening to Old Sparky and not researching it for
myself. He told me that his tools included an old fashioned blow
torch and a big honking soldering iron. The first wire nuts he ever
saw were ceramic or porcelain. I understand the sulfur because that
was the magic ingredient Charles Goodyear discovered was the missing
element needed to cause latex to vulcanize into something useful. ^_^

TDD

On 3/26/2012 11:53 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2012 8:23 AM, Peter wrote:
On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

I bought the house I'm currently living in in 1987. It was built in 1970
and has aluminum wiring. At the time of sale I required the seller to
swap out every wall receptacle and switch with COALAR units and the work
to be done by a licensed electrician.

A minor problem is that electricians do not necessarily know what the
actual problems and fixes are.

If you are interested you can read:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
(also posted elsewhere). You will probably know more than electricians.
The advice is based on extensive research on aluminum connections.

Trivia note, the "R" in CO/ALR is "revised".


Every house in my subdivision was built at the same time with the same
wiring. Neither me nor any of my neighbors (to my knowledge) has had any
problems related to the aluminum wiring. We all have circuit breaker
panels.

I used to take off the face plates every year and check to see if the
wire loops were loosening under the screw heads but gave up that
exercise after about 3 years when none were noted to have become loose.

I'm well aware of the supposed risks associated with aluminum wiring and
I would have preferred to have copper. However, my experience has not
been bad. I suspect that if the homeowner respects the amperage ratings
of each breaker circuit and avoids overloads, they will not have
problems. Copper is more forgiving of overloads due to lower resistance
and therefore less heating and attendant expansion/contraction at
connections.

Resistance is not a factor. Aluminum wires have a similar resistance to
copper since they are larger - #12 aluminum on a 15A circuit, #10 on a 20A.


Bud, are you familiar with copper clad aluminum? I first saw it when I
worked for an electrical supplier in the early 1970's during a copper
shortage. The company was selling a lot of aluminum Romex and then we
started getting in copper clad aluminum Romex. One day the darnedest
thing showed up from another supplier, copper clad thermostat wire in
18 AWG. I discovered it when I picked up the reel and it darn near flew
out of my hands because it was so light. If you've ever picked up a
hollow display auto battery, you know what I mean. I hadn't seen copper
clad aluminum for years until recently when I got an Email from a
network component supplier for 24 AWG copper clad Cat5 network cable.
I just called my buddy at Inline Electric and he's never heard of copper
clad aluminum Romex so I assume it hasn't made a comeback in the
local electrical supply chain. But dang, copper is getting expensive! o_O

TDD

On Mar 25, 10:23*am, Peter wrote:
On 3/24/2012 5:26 PM, Doug wrote:



I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) *does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) *without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? * Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

I bought the house I'm currently living in in 1987. *It was built in
1970 and has aluminum wiring. *At the time of sale I required the seller
to swap out every wall receptacle and switch with COALAR units and the
work to be done by a licensed electrician.

Every house in my subdivision was built at the same time with the same
wiring. *Neither me nor any of my neighbors (to my knowledge) has had
any problems related to the aluminum wiring. *We all have circuit
breaker panels.

....

I used to take off the face plates every year and check to see if the
wire loops were loosening under the screw heads but gave up that
exercise after about 3 years when none were noted to have become loose.

....

Studies have shown that the loose connections first appear at 3.1
years. ;-)

....


I'm well aware of the supposed risks associated with aluminum wiring and
I would have preferred to have copper. *However, my experience has not
been bad. *I suspect that if the homeowner respects the amperage ratings
of each breaker circuit and avoids overloads, they will not have
problems. *Copper is more forgiving of overloads due to lower resistance
and therefore less heating and attendant expansion/contraction at
connections.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 3/26/2012 2:56 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/26/2012 1:01 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2012 12:41 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2012 8:13 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:14 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so
tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the
cost to
yourself after the sale.

--


A lot of early copper house wiring was tinned because connections were
soldered then wrapped with friction tape.

I read tinning was to protect the copper from the rubber insulation
(sulfur?). (I don't know.)


As usual, the Budman is correct. According to the electrical wiring
historian, David E. Shapiro, without the tinning, the rubber coating
would have to be scraped off of the copper because of "gluing caused by
catalytic action. It certainly didn't hurt in the process of soldering
the conductors either.


That's what I get for listening to Old Sparky and not researching it for
myself. He told me that his tools included an old fashioned blow
torch and a big honking soldering iron. The first wire nuts he ever
saw were ceramic or porcelain. I understand the sulfur because that
was the magic ingredient Charles Goodyear discovered was the missing
element needed to cause latex to vulcanize into something useful. ^_^

TDD


My dad did electrical work as a kid, then when he got home after ww2, he
started his own electrical contracting business. I started working with
him in the early 70's. I remember a drawer in the shop's workbench that
had a couple of those big honkin soldering irons. I'm sure they got
kicked around for years and finally got tossed. I don't remember seeing
any kind of lead melting pot, just those massive irons. I never did ask
him if or when he used them, but I'll be sure to do so next time I see him.

On 3/26/2012 3:51 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2012 2:56 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/26/2012 1:01 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2012 12:41 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2012 8:13 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:14 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy
way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum
wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring
that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so
tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of
the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be
either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the
cost to
yourself after the sale.

--


A lot of early copper house wiring was tinned because connections were
soldered then wrapped with friction tape.

I read tinning was to protect the copper from the rubber insulation
(sulfur?). (I don't know.)


As usual, the Budman is correct. According to the electrical wiring
historian, David E. Shapiro, without the tinning, the rubber coating
would have to be scraped off of the copper because of "gluing caused by
catalytic action. It certainly didn't hurt in the process of soldering
the conductors either.


That's what I get for listening to Old Sparky and not researching it for
myself. He told me that his tools included an old fashioned blow
torch and a big honking soldering iron. The first wire nuts he ever
saw were ceramic or porcelain. I understand the sulfur because that
was the magic ingredient Charles Goodyear discovered was the missing
element needed to cause latex to vulcanize into something useful. ^_^

TDD


My dad did electrical work as a kid, then when he got home after ww2, he
started his own electrical contracting business. I started working with
him in the early 70's. I remember a drawer in the shop's workbench that
had a couple of those big honkin soldering irons. I'm sure they got
kicked around for years and finally got tossed. I don't remember seeing
any kind of lead melting pot, just those massive irons. I never did ask
him if or when he used them, but I'll be sure to do so next time I see him.

You've probably seen the classic blow torch used by not only plumbers
but by electricians in the old days to heat the soldering irons. Old
Sparky told me everything was soldered back then and wrapped with
friction tape and when I asked him about the tinned wire he told me it
was that way because they soldered all their connections. Darn it, I'm
gonna lie to the youngsters now! ^_^

TDD

On 3/26/2012 3:51 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2012 2:56 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/26/2012 1:01 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2012 12:41 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2012 8:13 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:14 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy
way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum
wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s; the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring
that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so
tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of
the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be
either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the
cost to
yourself after the sale.

--


A lot of early copper house wiring was tinned because connections were
soldered then wrapped with friction tape.

I read tinning was to protect the copper from the rubber insulation
(sulfur?). (I don't know.)


As usual, the Budman is correct. According to the electrical wiring
historian, David E. Shapiro, without the tinning, the rubber coating
would have to be scraped off of the copper because of "gluing caused by
catalytic action. It certainly didn't hurt in the process of soldering
the conductors either.


That's what I get for listening to Old Sparky and not researching it for
myself. He told me that his tools included an old fashioned blow
torch and a big honking soldering iron. The first wire nuts he ever
saw were ceramic or porcelain. I understand the sulfur because that
was the magic ingredient Charles Goodyear discovered was the missing
element needed to cause latex to vulcanize into something useful. ^_^

TDD


My dad did electrical work as a kid, then when he got home after ww2, he
started his own electrical contracting business. I started working with
him in the early 70's. I remember a drawer in the shop's workbench that
had a couple of those big honkin soldering irons. I'm sure they got
kicked around for years and finally got tossed. I don't remember seeing
any kind of lead melting pot, just those massive irons. I never did ask
him if or when he used them, but I'll be sure to do so next time I see him.

I did a bit of searching and found this:

Electricians used blow torches in their work as well. You may have
noticed the hook on top of the burner head and the vee groove at the
mouth of the burner head. These were used to hold a soldering iron in
the flame of the torch whereby the electrician would use the soldering
iron to solder wires together. The soldering iron was used by radiomen
as well as electricians. The other interesting technique used by
electricians is that they would twist the wires together in a junction
box, then take a ladle that had a swivel mechanism. The ladle was at the
end of a steel handle about 18 inches long. The object of the swivel was
so no matter what angle the handle was in, the ladle, which held molten
lead, would always be vertical. The electrician would walk through his
new construction project, hold this ladle up to his freshly twisted
wires, and dip the wires into the lead. This was done so the electrical
connections would not work loose.

Zangobob's Blow Torch Heaven

http://www.blotorches.com/

TDD

On 3/26/2012 7:51 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/26/2012 3:51 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2012 2:56 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/26/2012 1:01 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2012 12:41 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2012 8:13 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:14 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:54 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/24/2012 4:26 PM, Doug wrote:
I thought about buying an older home built in the 50's in around
Houston, Texas but I was wondering about the electrical wiring.

a) does anyone know if aluminum wiring was used, when this area
switched over to copper wiring?

b) briefly what advantages does copper have over aluminum?

c) without pulling off outlet/switch plates, is there an easy
way to
tell if the house has aluminum or copper wiring? Can aluminum
wiring
use a breaker box or only fuses?

d) for a 1 story 1500 sq foot home circa 50's, what an electrician
might charge to switch wiring?

e) advice buying an older home with respect to electrical wiring?

The Al branch circuit wiring craze was generally in the mid-60s;
the
chances of it in a 50s house are nil.

Not exactly nil, but pretty close. As with a number of electrical
materials, some things were available long before anyone cared to
use
them. Small gauge aluminum building conductors were around since the
40's, possibly because of the war, but the era of aluminum wiring
that
strikes fear in homeowners, is primarily from 65' to 73'. Sometimes
earlier conductors with tinned copper is mistaken for aluminum.


Al tends to oxidize and has higher thermal coeff of expansion so
tends
to loosen connections w/ time more than Cu. The biggest issue is
the
oxidation layer and contact resistance at connections that acts
as a
miniature heater and eventually can reach combustion
temperatures if
gets bad enough.

You'll have a home inspection done, anyway, wiring is just one of
the
many issues to have verified and discover if there needs to be
either
work done prior to the sale or discount the offer to cover the
cost to
yourself after the sale.

--


A lot of early copper house wiring was tinned because connections
were
soldered then wrapped with friction tape.

I read tinning was to protect the copper from the rubber insulation
(sulfur?). (I don't know.)


As usual, the Budman is correct. According to the electrical wiring
historian, David E. Shapiro, without the tinning, the rubber coating
would have to be scraped off of the copper because of "gluing caused by
catalytic action. It certainly didn't hurt in the process of soldering
the conductors either.


That's what I get for listening to Old Sparky and not researching it for
myself. He told me that his tools included an old fashioned blow
torch and a big honking soldering iron. The first wire nuts he ever
saw were ceramic or porcelain. I understand the sulfur because that
was the magic ingredient Charles Goodyear discovered was the missing
element needed to cause latex to vulcanize into something useful. ^_^

TDD


My dad did electrical work as a kid, then when he got home after ww2, he
started his own electrical contracting business. I started working with
him in the early 70's. I remember a drawer in the shop's workbench that
had a couple of those big honkin soldering irons. I'm sure they got
kicked around for years and finally got tossed. I don't remember seeing
any kind of lead melting pot, just those massive irons. I never did ask
him if or when he used them, but I'll be sure to do so next time I see
him.

I did a bit of searching and found this:

Electricians used blow torches in their work as well. You may have
noticed the hook on top of the burner head and the vee groove at the
mouth of the burner head. These were used to hold a soldering iron in
the flame of the torch whereby the electrician would use the soldering
iron to solder wires together. The soldering iron was used by radiomen
as well as electricians. The other interesting technique used by
electricians is that they would twist the wires together in a junction
box, then take a ladle that had a swivel mechanism. The ladle was at the
end of a steel handle about 18 inches long. The object of the swivel was
so no matter what angle the handle was in, the ladle, which held molten
lead, would always be vertical. The electrician would walk through his
new construction project, hold this ladle up to his freshly twisted
wires, and dip the wires into the lead. This was done so the electrical
connections would not work loose.

Zangobob's Blow Torch Heaven

http://www.blotorches.com/

TDD

My understanding is that they use the pot or ladle when they were doing
new construction or rural electrification upgrades, and used the irons
for "non production" splices. What a PIA. Every day I thank my lucky
stars for never having to use a blow torch, massive soldering iron,
brace & bit, or knobs & tubes, hell I hated having to use a 3/16" star
drill to hand drive rawl plugs. I'm just spoiled