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#1
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Propane question
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside. At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high. The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part or all of the problem. But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. The cooktop line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve |
#2
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Propane question
Steve B wrote: I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside. At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high. The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part or all of the problem. But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. The cooktop line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve Hi, During my camping days 4 seasons, all I know is there is winter blend propane just like gasoline for cars. In extreme cold summer blend can even freeze. |
#3
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Propane question
On Feb 18, 6:01*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I have two propane appliances. * One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. *The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. *Both of the tanks are outside. At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high. The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part or all of the problem. But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. *The cooktop line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? *Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. *There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve it should still heat well, i have grilled at near zero, after bringing the 20 pound tank indoors in hot water to warm it up a bit. your burner may be clogged, or a spider may have made a nest in a orfice or line. might be a bad regulator inspect the burner its probably clogged or may be rusted or burned out. i love my very old lava rock grill. i put parts of it in my self cleaning oven to degreae it..... on the shortest cycle possible.. the lid slumped a bit, it must of started to melt |
#4
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Propane question
On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote:
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem. |
#5
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Propane question
On Feb 18, 3:01*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I have two propane appliances. * One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. *The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. *Both of the tanks are outside. At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high. The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part or all of the problem. But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. *The cooktop line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? *Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. *There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve here is a useful primer on propane http://rjmurray.com/serviceBulletins...nsHandbook.pdf probably more info than you wanted but here's an important excerpt........ Vaporization Rate The rate of vaporization of a container is dependent upon the temperature of the liquid and the amount of “wetted surface” area of the container. The temperature of the liquid is proportional to the outside air temperature and the wetted surface area is the tank surface area in contact with the liquid. Therefore, when the outside air temperature is lower or the container has less liquid in it, the vaporization rate of the container is a lower value. The vaporization rate is important because it determines the maximum energy delivery rate (btu per hour) that you can get from the tank in a particular cooking situation. I have similar BBQ but a different mfr & only three burners (~40,000 btu / hr) If yours is a four burner then you're in the 50K+ range. I'm guessing the cold weather with a bit of wind is stealing heat from the bbq. And you;re suffering from reduced a reduced vaporization rate as well. here's a better link... it shows the btu's per hr from various tank sizes at various outside Temps with the tank at 25% full (the conservative way to estimate tank size required to supply a load). http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/PropaneNGUse.html scroll down and read the section "What does all this mean?" There are a number of variables at work that can "go against you" when you're trying to cook in cold temps with LP gas. One way around the problem is to always use a tank that is closer to full in cold weather. Or place the in a large galvanized wash tub with ~4 gallons of 85F water while you're cooking. That would be 2 gallons of cold water at 50F and 2 gallons of hot water at 120F. YMMV That will give you plenty of heat input into the tank to vaporize the propane and make the bbq happy. cheers Bob |
#6
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Propane question
On Feb 18, 4:04*pm, Frank wrote:
On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote: I have two propane appliances. * One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. *The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. *Both of the tanks are outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? *Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. *There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem. There's more to the situation than the boiling point of propane. It comes down to how many btu's/hr you need to get into the liquid propane in order to vaporize enough propane at reasonable tank pressure to satisfy the appliance demand. That's why when frost starts to form on an "in use" propane tank, the heat transfer is "barely working" and the appliance is likely being starved. cheers Bob |
#7
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Propane question
I have the $99 special I bought at Home Depot about 10 years ago.
I'd buy a nicer one but some heathen would prolly steal it. Anyway, works fine down into the low low 30's...no problem. Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Steve B" wrote in message ... I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside. At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high. The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part or all of the problem. But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. The cooktop line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve |
#8
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Propane question
"Steve B" wrote:
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside. At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high. The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part or all of the problem. But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. The cooktop line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve I never had a problem in the cold using my grill. I have had issues with regulators. I have never tried to use the grill around zero degrees. I have gone through 3 regulators on the same grill. Greg |
#9
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Propane question
Frank wrote: On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote: I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem. Don't forget that propane functions as a refrigerant and drawing large amounts of gas from a small tank with cool the contents considerable. Note how frost forms on the outside of the tank matching the liquid level inside. The much larger tank feeding the home will chill far less for a given flow rate, and a kitchen range also requires less flow than an outdoor grill. Hook the outdoor grill to the big supply tank (or manifold a couple smaller tanks for the grill) and your problems will disappear. |
#10
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Propane question
On 2/19/2012 8:55 AM, Pete C. wrote:
Frank wrote: On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote: I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem. Don't forget that propane functions as a refrigerant and drawing large amounts of gas from a small tank with cool the contents considerable. Note how frost forms on the outside of the tank matching the liquid level inside. The much larger tank feeding the home will chill far less for a given flow rate, and a kitchen range also requires less flow than an outdoor grill. Hook the outdoor grill to the big supply tank (or manifold a couple smaller tanks for the grill) and your problems will disappear. Right but I did not think restriction would be that great. STP gas pressure should only be down by maybe 10%. No personal experience as I don't use my grill in cold weather |
#11
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Propane question
On Feb 18, 9:47*pm, gregz wrote:
"Steve B" wrote: I have two propane appliances. * One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. *The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. *Both of the tanks are outside. At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high. The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part or all of the problem. But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. *The cooktop line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? *Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. *There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve I never had a problem in the cold using my grill. I have had issues with regulators. I have never tried to use the grill around zero degrees. I have gone through 3 regulators on the same grill. Greg- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I grill outside on a grill using natural gas and it does take longer when it's really cold out, eg 20F, but it still works OK. With propane coming out of a tank, there would be less pressure at the TANK in cold weather, but I would think there should still be enough pressure for the regulator to deliver gas at the proper pressure to the grill. If this cold tank thing was a problem, then how could you heat homes with propane tanks that are outside when it's below 0F? Also, long time ago I used propane and don't ever remember having trouble in winter. These outdoor grills have all kinds of problems that result int poor performance. Everything from spider webs in orrifices to rusted, falling apart burners. |
#12
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Propane question
I don't know how your grill works but my Weber grill has a safety feature where it lowers gas flow if you turn the burners on before opening the valve on the propane tank. Could that be the issue?
Because I use a 20 lb tank and regularly bbq when it's 20F outside and while it may not get quite as hot, nor heat up as fast, it's still plenty hot enough to grill. |
#13
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Propane question
On Feb 19, 7:11*am, "
wrote: SNIP I grill outside on a grill using natural gas and it does take longer when it's really cold out, eg 20F, but it still works OK. * With propane coming out of a tank, there would be less pressure at the TANK in cold weather, but I would think there should still be enough pressure for the regulator to deliver gas at the proper pressure to the grill. *If this cold tank thing was a problem, then how could you heat homes with propane tanks that are outside when it's below 0F? *Also, long time ago I used propane and don't ever remember having trouble in winter. These outdoor grills have all kinds of problems that result int poor performance. *Everything from spider webs in orrifices to rusted, falling apart burners. ....... If this cold tank thing was a problem, then how could you heat homes with propane tanks that are outside when it's below 0F?........... It's not a cold tank problem or strictly a temperature problem per se it's an issue of how much vaporized propane the grill needs and how much vaporized propane the tank can provide. Larger tanks (depending on fill %) have larger wetted areas and can provide enough vaporized propane even in very cold weather. It's the wetted areas draw heat from the environment even at 0F or lower. That's why the propane companies require snow (insulation) to be cleared from the tanks, that and the concern that leaked gas could be trapped. Like a heat pump, the heat transfer doesn't work as well at lower temps. Big tank (250 gallon / 1000 lbs) at 1/3 full in cold weather with residential load.....no problems Small tank ( 5 gallon / 20 lbs) at 1/3 full in cold weather possible problems. Performance all depends on bbq size / burner demand and number of burners on. Elevation of installation (5000 ft+) also an issue. cheers Bob |
#14
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Propane question
Frank wrote: On 2/19/2012 8:55 AM, Pete C. wrote: Frank wrote: On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote: I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside. Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the flame around a lot. After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane use outside in 40ish temperatures? Steve I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem. Don't forget that propane functions as a refrigerant and drawing large amounts of gas from a small tank with cool the contents considerable. Note how frost forms on the outside of the tank matching the liquid level inside. The much larger tank feeding the home will chill far less for a given flow rate, and a kitchen range also requires less flow than an outdoor grill. Hook the outdoor grill to the big supply tank (or manifold a couple smaller tanks for the grill) and your problems will disappear. Right but I did not think restriction would be that great. STP gas pressure should only be down by maybe 10%. No personal experience as I don't use my grill in cold weather I was running a small LP "salamander" heater last weekend in 31F weather pulling from a 20# tank, and there was a really nice frost band around the tank after it had been running for a while. |
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