Well, 0n Thursday I did my now monthly check on our 18 year old GSW
(10 year tank) gas water heater and found the insulation was damp, so
for the second time in the 26 years we've owned the house, I had to go
buy and install a new water heater.
I could have run over to a distributor I've bought a fair amount of
plumbing supplies from and saved a bit of money, but Home Despot is
only about a mile away, and I figured I could manage hauling the
heater home on the rack mounted to the trailer hitch on my PT Cruiser
- from the distributor I'd have needed to borrow a truck or a trailer.

I settled on the 12 year GE (Rudd/Rheem) 40 US Gallon conventional
heater at $549 canadian. It had no legs like the old one had, so I
needed to block up the one side to level it, since the other side was
sitting on the edge of the raised sub-floor of the adjacent rec-room.
Thankfully the alighnment of the gas and water lines was almost
identical but the new heater was about 6 inches higher - had to take
out 6" of vent and shorten both the cold ceed and hot outlet 6 inches
.. The gas fitting was 1.5" higher, so I had to replace 2 elbows and
nipples with street elbows - which allowed the gas line to line up
virtually perfectly.
4 hours including emptying the old heater,running out for new 1/2"
unions and ball valve, then the street elbows, hauling the new one
down into the basement and the old one out, and dropping the old one
off at the dump.

We'll see if this one stands up as well as the last 2 - 16 years for
the original, 18 for the replacement. - virtually NO sediment buildup
in the old tank, by the way. The water around here used to be VERY
hard (groundwater) but since the region started supplementing with
water from the Grand about 10 years ago, using artificial recharge
wells, the hardness has improved - and we DO have a softener.

wrote in
Thankfully the alighnment of the gas and water lines was almost
identical but the new heater was about 6 inches higher - had to take
out 6" of vent and shorten both the cold ceed and hot outlet 6 inches
. The gas fitting was 1.5" higher, so I had to replace 2 elbows and
nipples with street elbows - which allowed the gas line to line up
virtually perfectly.
4 hours including emptying the old heater,running out for new 1/2"
unions and ball valve, then the street elbows, hauling the new one
down into the basement and the old one out, and dropping the old one
off at the dump.

Not bad time for all involved. Easier to shorten than lengthen everything.

At work we had an 80 gallon unit leak. It was in there when we bought the
building and the former owner had many more employees than us, thus the
large tank. I opted to replace it with an identical unit to avoid what you
had to do. Everything lined up.

On Jun 5, 3:16*am, wrote:
*Well, 0n Thursday I did my now monthly check on our 18 year old GSW
(10 year tank) gas water heater and found the insulation was damp, so
for the second time in the 26 years we've owned the house, I had to go
buy and install a new water heater.
I could have run over to a distributor I've bought a fair amount of
plumbing supplies from and saved a bit of money, but Home Despot is
only about a mile away, and I figured I could manage hauling the
heater home on the rack mounted to the trailer hitch on my PT Cruiser
- from the distributor I'd have needed to borrow a truck or a trailer.

I settled on the 12 year GE (Rudd/Rheem) 40 US Gallon conventional
heater at $549 canadian. It had no legs like the old one had, so I
needed to block up the one side to level it, since the other side was
sitting on the edge of the raised sub-floor of the adjacent rec-room.
Thankfully the alighnment of the gas and water lines was almost
identical but the new heater was about 6 inches higher - had to take
out 6" of vent and shorten both the cold ceed and hot outlet 6 inches
. The gas fitting was 1.5" higher, so I had to replace 2 elbows and
nipples with street elbows - which allowed the gas line to line up
virtually perfectly.
4 hours including emptying the old heater,running out for new 1/2"
unions and ball valve, then the street elbows, hauling the new one
down into the basement and the old one out, and dropping the old one
off at the dump.

We'll see if this one stands up as well as the last 2 - 16 years for
the original, 18 for the replacement. - virtually NO sediment buildup
in the old tank, by the way. The water around here used to be VERY
hard (groundwater) but since the region started supplementing with
water from the Grand about 10 years ago, using artificial recharge
wells, the hardness has improved - and we DO have a softener.

You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas. Eg.
http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...6&show_ctg=166
I expect you have equivalents in Canada.
Move into the 20th century.

You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas. Eg.http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...6&show_ctg=166
I expect you have equivalents in Canada.
Move into the 20th century.-

The OP is far better served by a conventional tank unit! It costs far
less and was easily installed Drawng low amounts of hot water isnt a
issue, with tankless a low flow can cause no heat..Theres no lag time
from faucet on to burners firing water heating. ... No issues with
cold incoming winter water temperatures causing cool showers..Much of
a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really
arent losses at all. all except what goes up the flue. the standard
tank tends to be highly reliable over its lifetime, tankless require a
knowledgable tech and routine maintence.... a power outgage on a
standard tank is generally a non issue, most dont need line voltage.
many tankless require line voltage to operate, no power no hot water
at all, if you ever had a multi day power failure a hot shower is
really nice. some people in a winter power failure have heated their
homes by snaking a garden hose running water slowly all thru the
house, ending at a bathtub, where hot water is finally released. this
is a excellent emergency heating idea. the $549.00 the OP paid for his
new tank divided by 18 years is just over 30 bucks a year, thats a
bargaiin.

tankless instaneous sound awesome but the numbers just dont work.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:22:05 -0700, bob haller wrote:

You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas.
Eg.http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...6&show_ctg=166 I
expect you have equivalents in Canada. Move into the 20th century.-

The OP is far better served by a conventional tank unit! It costs far
less and was easily installed Drawng low amounts of hot water isnt a
issue, with tankless a low flow can cause no heat..Theres no lag time
from faucet on to burners firing water heating. ... No issues with cold
incoming winter water temperatures causing cool showers..Much of a
standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really arent
losses at all. all except what goes up the flue. the standard tank tends
to be highly reliable over its lifetime, tankless require a knowledgable
tech and routine maintence.... a power outgage on a standard tank is
generally a non issue, most dont need line voltage. many tankless
require line voltage to operate, no power no hot water at all, if you
ever had a multi day power failure a hot shower is really nice. some
people in a winter power failure have heated their homes by snaking a
garden hose running water slowly all thru the house, ending at a
bathtub, where hot water is finally released. this is a excellent
emergency heating idea. the $549.00 the OP paid for his new tank divided
by 18 years is just over 30 bucks a year, thats a bargaiin.

tankless instaneous sound awesome but the numbers just dont work.

I find tankless to be quite efficient. I have 2 small electrics, one
under the bathroom, one under the kitchen. I like something that only
uses energy when I use it. Who needs 40 gallons of hot water sitting in
the basement for nothing, losing heat and costing you money all the time.

"harry" wrote
You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas. Eg.
http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...6&show_ctg=166
I expect you have equivalents in Canada.
Move into the 20th century.

That has been discussed here many times. Most retrofits are costly with
added piping for gas or electric capacity. They do not work as well for low
flow situations either. Maybe ideal for the 22nd century once perfected.

On Jun 5, 7:46*am, Dbdblocker wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:22:05 -0700, bob haller wrote:
You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas.
Eg.http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...&show_ctg=166I
expect you have equivalents in Canada. Move into the 20th century.-

The OP is far better served by a conventional tank unit! It costs far
less and was easily installed Drawng low amounts of hot water isnt a
issue, with tankless a low flow can cause no heat..Theres no lag time
from faucet on to burners firing water heating. ... No issues with cold
incoming winter water temperatures causing cool showers..Much of a
standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really arent
losses at all. all except what goes up the flue. the standard tank tends
to be highly reliable over its lifetime, tankless require a knowledgable
tech and routine maintence.... a power outgage on a standard tank is
generally a *non issue, most dont need line voltage. many tankless
require line voltage to operate, no power no hot water at all, if you
ever had a multi day power failure a hot shower is really nice. some
people in a winter power failure have heated their homes by snaking a
garden hose running water slowly all thru the house, ending at a
bathtub, where hot water is finally released. this is a excellent
emergency heating idea. the $549.00 the OP paid for his new tank divided
by 18 years is just over 30 bucks a year, thats a bargaiin.

tankless instaneous sound awesome but the numbers just dont work.

I find tankless to be quite efficient. I have 2 small electrics, one
under the bathroom, one under the kitchen. I like something that only
uses energy when I use it. Who needs 40 gallons of hot water sitting in
the basement for nothing, losing heat and costing you money all the time.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Are you referring to the sinks that the heaters are under??? Do you
have a tank under the bathrub also????

On Jun 5, 1:46*pm, Dbdblocker wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:22:05 -0700, bob haller wrote:
You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas.
Eg.http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...&show_ctg=166I
expect you have equivalents in Canada. Move into the 20th century.-

The OP is far better served by a conventional tank unit! It costs far
less and was easily installed Drawng low amounts of hot water isnt a
issue, with tankless a low flow can cause no heat..Theres no lag time
from faucet on to burners firing water heating. ... No issues with cold
incoming winter water temperatures causing cool showers..Much of a
standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really arent
losses at all. all except what goes up the flue. the standard tank tends
to be highly reliable over its lifetime, tankless require a knowledgable
tech and routine maintence.... a power outgage on a standard tank is
generally a *non issue, most dont need line voltage. many tankless
require line voltage to operate, no power no hot water at all, if you
ever had a multi day power failure a hot shower is really nice. some
people in a winter power failure have heated their homes by snaking a
garden hose running water slowly all thru the house, ending at a
bathtub, where hot water is finally released. this is a excellent
emergency heating idea. the $549.00 the OP paid for his new tank divided
by 18 years is just over 30 bucks a year, thats a bargaiin.

tankless instaneous sound awesome but the numbers just dont work.

I find tankless to be quite efficient. I have 2 small electrics, one
under the bathroom, one under the kitchen. I like something that only
uses energy when I use it. Who needs 40 gallons of hot water sitting in
the basement for nothing, losing heat and costing you money all the time.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Exactly so.

On Jun 5, 4:12*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 5, 7:46*am, Dbdblocker wrote:





On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:22:05 -0700, bob haller wrote:
You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas.
Eg.http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...&show_ctg=166I
expect you have equivalents in Canada. Move into the 20th century.-

The OP is far better served by a conventional tank unit! It costs far
less and was easily installed Drawng low amounts of hot water isnt a
issue, with tankless a low flow can cause no heat..Theres no lag time
from faucet on to burners firing water heating. ... No issues with cold
incoming winter water temperatures causing cool showers..Much of a
standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really arent
losses at all. all except what goes up the flue. the standard tank tends
to be highly reliable over its lifetime, tankless require a knowledgable
tech and routine maintence.... a power outgage on a standard tank is
generally a *non issue, most dont need line voltage. many tankless
require line voltage to operate, no power no hot water at all, if you
ever had a multi day power failure a hot shower is really nice. some
people in a winter power failure have heated their homes by snaking a
garden hose running water slowly all thru the house, ending at a
bathtub, where hot water is finally released. this is a excellent
emergency heating idea. the $549.00 the OP paid for his new tank divided
by 18 years is just over 30 bucks a year, thats a bargaiin.

tankless instaneous sound awesome but the numbers just dont work.

I find tankless to be quite efficient. I have 2 small electrics, one
under the bathroom, one under the kitchen. I like something that only
uses energy when I use it. Who needs 40 gallons of hot water sitting in
the basement for nothing, losing heat and costing you money all the time.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Are you referring to the sinks that the heaters are under??? Do you
have a tank under the bathrub also????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have one next to my bath. But it's heated with solar power. (Heat
or electricity.)
I have two under sinks, heated with solar electricity.
I have an instantaneous shower too.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 08:12:54 -0700, hr(bob) wrote:

On Jun 5, 7:46Â*am, Dbdblocker wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:22:05 -0700, bob haller wrote:
You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas.
Eg.http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...&show_ctg=166I
expect you have equivalents in Canada. Move into the 20th century.-

The OP is far better served by a conventional tank unit! It costs far
less and was easily installed Drawng low amounts of hot water isnt
a issue, with tankless a low flow can cause no heat..Theres no lag
time from faucet on to burners firing water heating. ... No issues
with cold incoming winter water temperatures causing cool
showers..Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in
winter so they really arent losses at all. all except what goes up
the flue. the standard tank tends to be highly reliable over its
lifetime, tankless require a knowledgable tech and routine
maintence.... a power outgage on a standard tank is generally a Â*non
issue, most dont need line voltage. many tankless require line
voltage to operate, no power no hot water at all, if you ever had a
multi day power failure a hot shower is really nice. some people in a
winter power failure have heated their homes by snaking a garden hose
running water slowly all thru the house, ending at a bathtub, where
hot water is finally released. this is a excellent emergency heating
idea. the $549.00 the OP paid for his new tank divided by 18 years is
just over 30 bucks a year, thats a bargaiin.

tankless instaneous sound awesome but the numbers just dont work.

I find tankless to be quite efficient. I have 2 small electrics, one
under the bathroom, one under the kitchen. I like something that only
uses energy when I use it. Who needs 40 gallons of hot water sitting in
the basement for nothing, losing heat and costing you money all the
time.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Are you referring to the sinks that the heaters are under??? Do you have
a tank under the bathrub also????

No, one tankless heater takes care of the sink and shower. Who uses both
at the same time?

In article ,
bob haller wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really
arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In ,
bob wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really
arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the
most part.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 09:41:31 -0700, harry wrote:

I've been thinking solar hot water as a supplement/alternate or preheater
for electric tankless.

Is yours similar to this? http://www.compactsolarwater.com/

What about that electric thing for the winter to keep it from freezing?
Take a lot of power?

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In ,
bob wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really
arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the
most part.
Let me guess. One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in
:

That has been discussed here many times. Most retrofits are costly
with added piping for gas or electric capacity. They do not work as
well for low flow situations either. Maybe ideal for the 22nd
century once perfected.

As a kid, my parents had 2 "geijsers" or instant heaters. They worked
fine. More recently, these simple instruments became overburdened with
eco- and safety-related gadgetry.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

wrote:
Well, 0n Thursday I did my now monthly check on our 18 year old GSW
(10 year tank) gas water heater and found the insulation was damp, so
for the second time in the 26 years we've owned the house, I had to go
buy and install a new water heater.
I could have run over to a distributor I've bought a fair amount of
plumbing supplies from and saved a bit of money, but Home Despot is
only about a mile away, and I figured I could manage hauling the
heater home on the rack mounted to the trailer hitch on my PT Cruiser
- from the distributor I'd have needed to borrow a truck or a trailer.

I settled on the 12 year GE (Rudd/Rheem) 40 US Gallon conventional
heater at $549 canadian. It had no legs like the old one had, so I
needed to block up the one side to level it, since the other side was
sitting on the edge of the raised sub-floor of the adjacent rec-room.
Thankfully the alighnment of the gas and water lines was almost
identical but the new heater was about 6 inches higher - had to take
out 6" of vent and shorten both the cold ceed and hot outlet 6 inches
. The gas fitting was 1.5" higher, so I had to replace 2 elbows and
nipples with street elbows - which allowed the gas line to line up
virtually perfectly.
4 hours including emptying the old heater,running out for new 1/2"
unions and ball valve, then the street elbows, hauling the new one
down into the basement and the old one out, and dropping the old one
off at the dump.

We'll see if this one stands up as well as the last 2 - 16 years for
the original, 18 for the replacement. - virtually NO sediment buildup
in the old tank, by the way. The water around here used to be VERY
hard (groundwater) but since the region started supplementing with
water from the Grand about 10 years ago, using artificial recharge
wells, the hardness has improved - and we DO have a softener.
Here ya go,
A heat pump hot water heater, run some duct work and cool a room
somewhere while ur heating the water...
http://webapps.easy2.com/cm2/flash/g...39 &buyhide=1

On Sat, 4 Jun 2011 23:28:24 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in
Thankfully the alighnment of the gas and water lines was almost
identical but the new heater was about 6 inches higher - had to take
out 6" of vent and shorten both the cold ceed and hot outlet 6 inches
. The gas fitting was 1.5" higher, so I had to replace 2 elbows and
nipples with street elbows - which allowed the gas line to line up
virtually perfectly.
4 hours including emptying the old heater,running out for new 1/2"
unions and ball valve, then the street elbows, hauling the new one
down into the basement and the old one out, and dropping the old one
off at the dump.

Not bad time for all involved. Easier to shorten than lengthen everything.


Actually, I've found it's actually easier to LENTHEN a lot of things
when it comes to plumbing - and particularly gas-fitting.
At work we had an 80 gallon unit leak. It was in there when we bought the
building and the former owner had many more employees than us, thus the
large tank. I opted to replace it with an identical unit to avoid what you
had to do. Everything lined up.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:19:31 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:16:50 -0400, wrote:

Well, 0n Thursday I did my now monthly check on our 18 year old GSW
(10 year tank) gas water heater and found the insulation was damp, so
for the second time in the 26 years we've owned the house, I had to go
buy and install a new water heater.
I could have run over to a distributor I've bought a fair amount of
plumbing supplies from and saved a bit of money, but Home Despot is
only about a mile away, and I figured I could manage hauling the
heater home on the rack mounted to the trailer hitch on my PT Cruiser
- from the distributor I'd have needed to borrow a truck or a trailer.

I settled on the 12 year GE (Rudd/Rheem) 40 US Gallon conventional
heater at $549 canadian. It had no legs like the old one had, so I
needed to block up the one side to level it, since the other side was
sitting on the edge of the raised sub-floor of the adjacent rec-room.
Thankfully the alighnment of the gas and water lines was almost
identical but the new heater was about 6 inches higher - had to take
out 6" of vent and shorten both the cold ceed and hot outlet 6 inches
. The gas fitting was 1.5" higher, so I had to replace 2 elbows and
nipples with street elbows - which allowed the gas line to line up
virtually perfectly.
4 hours including emptying the old heater,running out for new 1/2"
unions and ball valve, then the street elbows, hauling the new one
down into the basement and the old one out, and dropping the old one
off at the dump.

We'll see if this one stands up as well as the last 2 - 16 years for
the original, 18 for the replacement. - virtually NO sediment buildup
in the old tank, by the way. The water around here used to be VERY
hard (groundwater) but since the region started supplementing with
water from the Grand about 10 years ago, using artificial recharge
wells, the hardness has improved - and we DO have a softener.

Times like this when you appreciate plastic pipe ;-)

Plastic also does not cause the galvanic corrosion at the nipples that
causes most water heater failures. Did you use dielectric unions?
I will NEVER use plastic pipe, particularly for this application -
and the water heater comes with the dialectric joints pre-installed
and standard equipment. I NEVER heat fittings at the tank. I ALWAYS
use pipe unions at leat six inches up from the tank, solder the
fittings to the pipe, thread the pipe on with teflon pipe sealing
compound, and then tighten up the unions.

Makes it a treat to remove later too, as you just uncrank the unions
and the system is apart - no hassles with trying to heat pipes with
water in them enough to unsolder joints, or cutting into the copper
pipe with a tube cutter. And I still use leaded solder because it wets
and flows so much better - and a PROPERLY soldered joint does not
expose enough solder to the water to be an issue - particularly in
the DHW system. I tin the copper pipe, heat it and slide the fluxed
fitting on ALL THE WAY, then touch just enough solder to the outer end
of the joint to form a neat fillet, and the joint is done. Solder
exposed to water? negligible at best.

On Sat, 4 Jun 2011 23:30:03 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:16Â*am, wrote:
Â*Well, 0n Thursday I did my now monthly check on our 18 year old GSW
(10 year tank) gas water heater and found the insulation was damp, so
for the second time in the 26 years we've owned the house, I had to go
buy and install a new water heater.
I could have run over to a distributor I've bought a fair amount of
plumbing supplies from and saved a bit of money, but Home Despot is
only about a mile away, and I figured I could manage hauling the
heater home on the rack mounted to the trailer hitch on my PT Cruiser
- from the distributor I'd have needed to borrow a truck or a trailer.

I settled on the 12 year GE (Rudd/Rheem) 40 US Gallon conventional
heater at $549 canadian. It had no legs like the old one had, so I
needed to block up the one side to level it, since the other side was
sitting on the edge of the raised sub-floor of the adjacent rec-room.
Thankfully the alighnment of the gas and water lines was almost
identical but the new heater was about 6 inches higher - had to take
out 6" of vent and shorten both the cold ceed and hot outlet 6 inches
. The gas fitting was 1.5" higher, so I had to replace 2 elbows and
nipples with street elbows - which allowed the gas line to line up
virtually perfectly.
4 hours including emptying the old heater,running out for new 1/2"
unions and ball valve, then the street elbows, hauling the new one
down into the basement and the old one out, and dropping the old one
off at the dump.

We'll see if this one stands up as well as the last 2 - 16 years for
the original, 18 for the replacement. - virtually NO sediment buildup
in the old tank, by the way. The water around here used to be VERY
hard (groundwater) but since the region started supplementing with
water from the Grand about 10 years ago, using artificial recharge
wells, the hardness has improved - and we DO have a softener.

You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas. Eg.
http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...6&show_ctg=166
I expect you have equivalents in Canada.
Move into the 20th century.
I won't have one of those pieces of crap in my house. They lime up
terribly quickly - requiring too much maintenance -and do NOT save an
awfull lot of gas. I DID consider getting an electronic pilot light
unit instead of a standing pilot, but I would have had to order it in.

On 05 Jun 2011 12:46:42 GMT, Dbdblocker wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:22:05 -0700, bob haller wrote:

You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas.
Eg.http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...6&show_ctg=166 I
expect you have equivalents in Canada. Move into the 20th century.-

The OP is far better served by a conventional tank unit! It costs far
less and was easily installed Drawng low amounts of hot water isnt a
issue, with tankless a low flow can cause no heat..Theres no lag time
from faucet on to burners firing water heating. ... No issues with cold
incoming winter water temperatures causing cool showers..Much of a
standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they really arent
losses at all. all except what goes up the flue. the standard tank tends
to be highly reliable over its lifetime, tankless require a knowledgable
tech and routine maintence.... a power outgage on a standard tank is
generally a non issue, most dont need line voltage. many tankless
require line voltage to operate, no power no hot water at all, if you
ever had a multi day power failure a hot shower is really nice. some
people in a winter power failure have heated their homes by snaking a
garden hose running water slowly all thru the house, ending at a
bathtub, where hot water is finally released. this is a excellent
emergency heating idea. the $549.00 the OP paid for his new tank divided
by 18 years is just over 30 bucks a year, thats a bargaiin.

tankless instaneous sound awesome but the numbers just dont work.

I find tankless to be quite efficient. I have 2 small electrics, one
under the bathroom, one under the kitchen. I like something that only
uses energy when I use it. Who needs 40 gallons of hot water sitting in
the basement for nothing, losing heat and costing you money all the time.
How much heat do they really loose???
I shut off the gas around supper time on Friday, in anticipation of
draining the tank Sat morning. I got started at about 10am, draining
the tank - and the water was still VERY hot. - and that was an 18 year
old tank with wet insulation...
The outer shell of the new heater is 3.5 degrees C warmer than
ambient in my basement right now, with water temp set at about 165f

In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In
,
bob wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the most part.

Let me guess. One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?

Tankless is like buying a new car for better gas mileage the new car
costs a 100 grand and saves ONE MPG.

The payoff exceeeds the life of the vehicle

and so does the payoff for tankless Older ones were low tech but the
latest ones really need a technician for routine maintence and that
costs real bucks

On 6/5/2011 7:49 PM, bob haller wrote:
Tankless is like buying a new car for better gas mileage the new car
costs a 100 grand and saves ONE MPG.

The payoff exceeeds the life of the vehicle

and so does the payoff for tankless Older ones were low tech but the
latest ones really need a technician for routine maintence and that
costs real bucks

I just had my natural gas water heater replaced and the plumbing company
told me the same thing. Their view was to only install a tankless when
floor space was a concern.

On 6/5/2011 6:12 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In
,
bob wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the most part.

Let me guess. One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?

he was probably suggesting that an electric one probably does not lose
it's heat up the flue. He is correct.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Malcom "Mal" Reynolds" wrote
Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on
your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the
most part.

Let me guess. One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?


No, but without a flue, they are not lost up the flue. Either statement
can be true or false depending on the location of the heater, if the heat is
actually used, if there is an AC" and if it is affected.

wrote
I DID consider getting an electronic pilot light
unit instead of a standing pilot, but I would have had to order it in.

That is of questionable value too. If the pilot is keeping the water hot,
little is wasted.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 16:12:24 -0700, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In
,
bob wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the most part.

Let me guess. One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?
Only in that no standby losses would go up the stack with electric.-
and there is no "pilot" standby loss with electric OR electronic
ignition gas units. (which mine is NOT.)

In article ,
wrote:


Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your
AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the
most part.

Let me guess. One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?
Only in that no standby losses would go up the stack with electric.-
and there is no "pilot" standby loss with electric OR electronic
ignition gas units. (which mine is NOT.)

I seriously doubt that the pilot light contributes very much in the winter or
costs much in the summer compared to the standby losses of the tank as a whole

On Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:44:04 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote
I DID consider getting an electronic pilot light
unit instead of a standing pilot, but I would have had to order it in.

That is of questionable value too. If the pilot is keeping the water hot,
little is wasted.


But if the insulation is good, there COULD be a few dollars in savings
over the life of the heater. Again, not likely worth the extra cost -
which is why I chose to go the way I did. I'd have saved more by
buying from the distributor across town instead of from Home Despot -
but the convenience of having HD so close to home outweighed the
potential savings, given my time constaints etc.

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

I seriously doubt that the pilot light contributes very much in the winter or
costs much in the summer compared to the standby losses of the tank as a whole

They don't contribute to any loss - the heat from the pilot heats the water in
the tank.

On 06/05/2011 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote
I DID consider getting an electronic pilot light
unit instead of a standing pilot, but I would have had to order it in.

That is of questionable value too. If the pilot is keeping the water
hot, little is wasted.


Also, standing pilot is nice when the power goes out; you can still take
a hot shower.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jun 6, 6:12*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 06/05/2011 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



wrote
I DID consider getting an electronic pilot light
unit instead of a standing pilot, but I would have had to order it in.

That is of questionable value too. If the pilot is keeping the water
hot, little is wasted.

Also, standing pilot is nice when the power goes out; you can still take
a hot shower.

nate


and water heater standing pilots have tiny flames using very little
gas, till heat is called for, believe its called 2 stage ignition, and
whats burned by the pilot helps keep the water warm..... new tanks
insulation is much better than older ones too.

take note tankless manufacturers claim very long life, but their
warranties are actually shorter than many tank type heaters.

when a tankless fails you have zero hot water. and a soophiscated
device probably requiring pro service and perodic flushing to remove
sediment.

I dont mind investing 30 bucks a year in a 12 year tank type heater
knowing i will likely never have to do a thing to it besides replace
it at end of life........

well i probably should wash dust off the outer case
perodically.........

On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 04:10:11 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Jun 6, 6:12Â*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 06/05/2011 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



wrote
I DID consider getting an electronic pilot light
unit instead of a standing pilot, but I would have had to order it in.

That is of questionable value too. If the pilot is keeping the water
hot, little is wasted.

Also, standing pilot is nice when the power goes out; you can still take
a hot shower.

nate


and water heater standing pilots have tiny flames using very little
gas, till heat is called for, believe its called 2 stage ignition, and
whats burned by the pilot helps keep the water warm..... new tanks
insulation is much better than older ones too.

take note tankless manufacturers claim very long life, but their
warranties are actually shorter than many tank type heaters.

when a tankless fails you have zero hot water. and a soophiscated
device probably requiring pro service and perodic flushing to remove
sediment.

I dont mind investing 30 bucks a year in a 12 year tank type heater
knowing i will likely never have to do a thing to it besides replace
it at end of life........

well i probably should wash dust off the outer case
perodically.........
I replaced the pilot thermocouple at least one - I think twice, in 18
years. That is definitely minimal maintenance.
My wife likely dusted the top a few times.

In article ,
Robert Neville wrote:

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

I seriously doubt that the pilot light contributes very much in the winter
or
costs much in the summer compared to the standby losses of the tank as a
whole

They don't contribute to any loss - the heat from the pilot heats the water
in
the tank.

which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the
house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the house
in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)

On 06/06/2011 07:10 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Jun 6, 6:12 am, Nate wrote:
On 06/05/2011 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



wrote
I DID consider getting an electronic pilot light
unit instead of a standing pilot, but I would have had to order it in.

That is of questionable value too. If the pilot is keeping the water
hot, little is wasted.

Also, standing pilot is nice when the power goes out; you can still take
a hot shower.

nate


and water heater standing pilots have tiny flames using very little
gas, till heat is called for, believe its called 2 stage ignition, and
whats burned by the pilot helps keep the water warm..... new tanks
insulation is much better than older ones too.

take note tankless manufacturers claim very long life, but their
warranties are actually shorter than many tank type heaters.

when a tankless fails you have zero hot water. and a soophiscated
device probably requiring pro service and perodic flushing to remove
sediment.

I dont mind investing 30 bucks a year in a 12 year tank type heater
knowing i will likely never have to do a thing to it besides replace
it at end of life........

well i probably should wash dust off the outer case
perodically.........

My last water heater I replaced the anode - just about when it should
have been. also replaced the T/P valve when it failed (d'oh!) and the
drain valve which I had to cap off to get it to fill without leaking.
Of course, it was something like 20 years old when SW(useta)MBO had it
replaced to make the house more saleable, and IMHO it was a waste of
money :P

I (heart) gas water heaters, because I (heart) long scalding hot
showers. I also tend to only be home briefly, so "oh, you can't take a
hot shower, I just ran the (dishwasher, washing machine, whatever)" is
unacceptable to me - but not a problem w/ a properly sized gas tank.

I really miss that house, now, actually :/ It was finally getting to
the point where most of the stuff just... worked.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 06:12:47 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 06/05/2011 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote
I DID consider getting an electronic pilot light
unit instead of a standing pilot, but I would have had to order it in.

That is of questionable value too. If the pilot is keeping the water
hot, little is wasted.


Also, standing pilot is nice when the power goes out; you can still take
a hot shower.

When we were kids, my brother kept his tropical fish alive, during an extended
power outage, that way. He surrounded the tanks with bottles he kept filled
with hot water.

On Sat, 4 Jun 2011 23:30:03 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:16*am, wrote:
*Well, 0n Thursday I did my now monthly check on our 18 year old GSW
(10 year tank) gas water heater and found the insulation was damp, so
for the second time in the 26 years we've owned the house, I had to go
buy and install a new water heater.
I could have run over to a distributor I've bought a fair amount of
plumbing supplies from and saved a bit of money, but Home Despot is
only about a mile away, and I figured I could manage hauling the
heater home on the rack mounted to the trailer hitch on my PT Cruiser
- from the distributor I'd have needed to borrow a truck or a trailer.

I settled on the 12 year GE (Rudd/Rheem) 40 US Gallon conventional
heater at $549 canadian. It had no legs like the old one had, so I
needed to block up the one side to level it, since the other side was
sitting on the edge of the raised sub-floor of the adjacent rec-room.
Thankfully the alighnment of the gas and water lines was almost
identical but the new heater was about 6 inches higher - had to take
out 6" of vent and shorten both the cold ceed and hot outlet 6 inches
. The gas fitting was 1.5" higher, so I had to replace 2 elbows and
nipples with street elbows - which allowed the gas line to line up
virtually perfectly.
4 hours including emptying the old heater,running out for new 1/2"
unions and ball valve, then the street elbows, hauling the new one
down into the basement and the old one out, and dropping the old one
off at the dump.

We'll see if this one stands up as well as the last 2 - 16 years for
the original, 18 for the replacement. - virtually NO sediment buildup
in the old tank, by the way. The water around here used to be VERY
hard (groundwater) but since the region started supplementing with
water from the Grand about 10 years ago, using artificial recharge
wells, the hardness has improved - and we DO have a softener.

You should have taken the opportunity to install an instantaneous
heater & saved a lot of gas. Eg.
http://aquahot.co.uk/index.php?actio...6&show_ctg=166
I expect you have equivalents in Canada.
Move into the 20th century.

Before installing a tankless (instantaneous), take a look at
the unit's circuit diagram. If that doesn't scare you off,
then you don't scare easily!

--
croy

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the
house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the house
in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)

Be careful of making assumptions based on where you live. It's quite common in
moderate temp climates to have the hot water heater located outside the heating
envelope of the house - i.e. in the garage.

On Jun 7, 7:25*am, Robert Neville wrote:
"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the
house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the house
in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)

Be careful of making assumptions based on where you live. It's quite common in
moderate temp climates to have the hot water heater located outside the heating
envelope of the house - i.e. in the garage. *

and anywhere that freezes the plumbing including water heater must be
indoors.

On Jun 5, 7:12*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In
,
* bob *wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the most part.
Let me guess. *One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?

Yes it does. With a conventional tank gas water heater, most of the
standby losses go up the flue. With an electric, there is no flue
path up the middle of the tank where heat gets lost. There are also
the direct vent type which use an inducer blower like high efficiency
furnaces. Those would have very little standby loss up the vent
path as well, more like electric ones.

However, the standby losses are not huge. I have a conventional gas
water heater and the TOTAL cost to run it is maybe $15 a month.
That includes all the water actually used, as well as standby loss.
One of these days, if I remember, I'm going to log the gas meter
before going away for a week and get an actual number.

Also, one of the more crazy things that always pops up here
is the above claim that standby losses don't matter because
they heat the house in winter. Even if all the standby losses
did exit via the tank into the surroundings there are two
major problems with that claim. One has already been
pointed out, which is that if it helps in the winter, then
it's a disadvantage in the summer, at least for those of us
with AC. And second is that most water heaters are not
in the living space itself. Hard to believe heat escaping my
water heater in the unfinished basement is going to do much
good heating the house.