Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS last night at two programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and negative
ways.

If there is an afterlife, I hope it involves being able to visit historical
sites like the Pyramids, the Parthenon, the Coliseum when they were brand,
spanking new. It must have been something to see, in a land devoid of large
buildings, a pyramid with its limestone sheathing intact or one of the Greek
temples, painted in riotous colors with huge statutes with enormous amounts
of gold and jewels.

Harry will appreciate how the allegedly morally superior Brits stole the
carvings right off the Parthenon's roof for their museum and to this day
refuse to return their stolen booty to the rightful owners, claiming,
interestingly enough, the same sort of right to them that Israel claims for
its itself, namely "We bought it from the Ottomans, fair and square!" What
the Ottomans are doing selling Greek heritage is less than clear, even to
the experts, but still, the English are hanging on to their stolen
antiquities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles

A study by Professor David Rudenstine of the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of
Law concluded that the premise that Elgin obtained legal title to the
marbles, which he then transferred to the British government, "is certainly
not established and may well be false"

The Romans pioneered things we use in the home almost every day. They
showed how, on the island of Ventotene*, where Augustus exiled his slut
daughter**, how they built a water collection system using hydraulic cement,
decantation pools and tunnels sloped precisely to cause water to flow fast
enough not to stagnate but slowly enough not to just spill out on the other
end. The system still produces 250K gallons of water per year. How many of
our systems will be working 2,000 years from now? They put the catch field
on the highest part of the island and built cross-shaped cisterns to hold
the water after the debris was decanted. The Romans even invented MSG!
They allowed fish to rot, producing a substance called garum, which
apparently is addictive because of the monosodium glutamate. They put it on
everything, even sweetcakes.

Most fascinating to me was that the amphora design may have caused the ship
to sink. If you've ever seen a Roman amphora . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphora

.. . . many of them have pointed or very narrow bottoms and can't stand
alone. The Romans designed them to be stackable and interlocking, so the
pointy bottoms became legs for a huge array of bottles. The problem was, if
one of the bottles on the edge of the array cracked, the whole assembly
pitched toward the broken amphora, breaking even more of them and changing
the very balance of the ship, allowing it to be easily swamped and sunk. I
wonder if the Romans had a version of our modern FAA accident investigation
teams? (-: RGB? The Roman Galley Bureau?

The Parthenon ep showed the tools they used to manipulate huge marble blocks
that they mated together within 1/20 of a millimeter. One of the tools was
a flat stone with hands on each end and funnels scattered over the surface
that allowed sand to pour through. These were worked across the top of each
column segment (drum) until they were perfectly flat. They also showed how
they checked for a tight fit, using colored clay the way we, today, might
crayon mark a sticking door to see where it was binding.

Then, as today, the Romans controlled alcohol licensing, and only Roman
merchants could make and sell wine in the provincial areas. I guess their
version of the ATF would be the WGS (Wine, garum and spears!)

Fascinating stuff, and completely apolitical. (0: "Nova" has always, in my
mind, been the flagship of the PBS network and still teach me stuff at this
old age.

--
Bobby G.


* Ven'toe-ten-Ay
** She turned out not to be a slut, but a political conspirator against her
father.

On May 27, 4:18*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS last night at two programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. *The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and negative
ways.

If there is an afterlife, I hope it involves being able to visit historical
sites like the Pyramids, the Parthenon, the Coliseum when they were brand,
spanking new. *It must have been something to see, in a land devoid of large
buildings, a pyramid with its limestone sheathing intact or one of the Greek
temples, painted in riotous colors with huge statutes with enormous amounts
of gold and jewels.

Harry will appreciate how the allegedly morally superior Brits stole the
carvings right off the Parthenon's roof for their museum and to this day
refuse to return their stolen booty to the rightful owners, claiming,
interestingly enough, the same sort of right to them that Israel claims for
its itself, namely "We bought it from the Ottomans, fair and square!" *What
the Ottomans are doing selling Greek heritage is less than clear, even to
the experts, but still, the English are hanging on to their stolen
antiquities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles

A study by Professor David Rudenstine of the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of
Law concluded that the premise that Elgin obtained legal title to the
marbles, which he then transferred to the British government, "is certainly
not established and may well be false"

The Romans pioneered things we use in the home almost every day. *They
showed how, on the island of Ventotene*, where Augustus exiled his slut
daughter**, how they built a water collection system using hydraulic cement,
decantation pools and tunnels sloped precisely to cause water to flow fast
enough not to stagnate but slowly enough not to just spill out on the other
end. *The system still produces 250K gallons of water per year. *How many of
our systems will be working 2,000 years from now? *They put the catch field
on the highest part of the island and built cross-shaped cisterns to hold
the water after the debris was decanted. *The Romans even invented MSG!
They allowed fish to rot, producing a substance called garum, which
apparently is addictive because of the monosodium glutamate. *They put it on
everything, even sweetcakes.

Most fascinating to me was that the amphora design may have caused the ship
to sink. *If you've ever seen a Roman amphora . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphora

. . . many of them have pointed or very narrow bottoms and can't stand
alone. *The Romans designed them to be stackable and interlocking, so the
pointy bottoms became legs for a huge array of bottles. *The problem was, if
one of the bottles on the edge of the array cracked, the whole assembly
pitched toward the broken amphora, breaking even more of them and changing
the very balance of the ship, allowing it to be easily swamped and sunk. *I
wonder if the Romans had a version of our modern FAA accident investigation
teams? *(-: *RGB? *The Roman Galley Bureau?

The Parthenon ep showed the tools they used to manipulate huge marble blocks
that they mated together within 1/20 of a millimeter. *One of the tools was
a flat stone with hands on each end and funnels scattered over the surface
that allowed sand to pour through. *These were worked across the top of each
column segment (drum) until they were perfectly flat. *They also showed how
they checked for a tight fit, using colored clay the way we, today, might
crayon mark a sticking door to see where it was binding.

Then, as today, the Romans controlled alcohol licensing, and only Roman
merchants could make and sell wine in the provincial areas. *I guess their
version of the ATF would be the WGS (Wine, garum and spears!)

Fascinating stuff, and completely apolitical. *(0: *"Nova" has always, in my
mind, been the flagship of the PBS network and still teach me stuff at this
old age.

--
Bobby G.

* Ven'toe-ten-Ay
** She turned out not to be a slut, but a political conspirator against her
father.

You should remember that you bought Alaska and Louisiana from people
that didn't own it. And stole the rest of America.
The remaining "marbles" that we didn't buy have almost completely
disintegrated due to traffic pollution. The ones in the British
Museum are kept in good nick. I expect the Greeks want them back so
they can f**k them up too.

There was historically no such place as "Greece". It was Hellenae,
Macedonia, Mycenea or Achea at different times. The present
inhabitants have virtually nothing to do with these civilisations.

I am glad your watching educational TV unlike the rest of your
countrymen.
I have visted all the places you mention (and lots more), you should
do the same. It is well worth the trip. I have stood on top of
Khufru's pyramid and walked round the Parthenon.
If you travel independently, it can be much cheaper than a "tour". You
can see much more and come and go as you please. If you can get local
assistance,/stay in a private house this is the best way of all.
I have travelled in many places like this. It can be a culture shock
in 3rd world countries.

It must be boring and sad to live in a place with virtually no
history or culture. No wonder people play with their toy guns and
drink/eat/shop too much.
If I look out of my window I can see a fortress almost 2000 years old
defended against the Romans by my ancestors. There are castles and
fortified cities a few minutes/hours drive away that go back almost a
thousand years. We have structures older than the pyramids two hours
drive away. My last house was four hundred years old.
However, if you are of Brit descent, it is still part of your culture.
You cannot escape by mere flight to America.

The problem with TV is you only see what they want you to see. There
is often interesting stuff/people nearby they don't show you.

If there is an afterlife, the pyramids will be even older than they
are now by the time you come to occupy it. :-)
Are there pyramids in Heaven? Or hell?


I hear there exists a replica in Las Vegas, maybe you should go see
that?

HARRY, YOU ARE A ROYAL PAIN IN THE POLITICAL ARSE, ALL YOU DO IS NAG
NAG NAG,
ADMIT IT, YOU ARE SNOOTY =(COOL TERMINOLOGY FOR STUCK UP &
INSUFFERABLE), GREEDY, PREHISTORIC, PREJUDICED & YOU SHOULD EAT MY
SHORTS !

TGITM

On 5/26/2011 10:18 PM, Robert Green wrote:

snip

We went to Washington DC one year, Rome the next and visited several
museums. Countless displays read: Original on display British Museum,
London (paraphrasing or course). We thought about visiting Egypt some
day but apparently if you want to visit Egypt you have to go to London.

Jim

On 5/27/2011 3:42 AM, harry wrote:
On May 27, 4:18 am, "Robert wrote:
Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS last night at two programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and negative
ways.

If there is an afterlife, I hope it involves being able to visit historical
sites like the Pyramids, the Parthenon, the Coliseum when they were brand,
spanking new. It must have been something to see, in a land devoid of large
buildings, a pyramid with its limestone sheathing intact or one of the Greek
temples, painted in riotous colors with huge statutes with enormous amounts
of gold and jewels.

Harry will appreciate how the allegedly morally superior Brits stole the
carvings right off the Parthenon's roof for their museum and to this day
refuse to return their stolen booty to the rightful owners, claiming,
interestingly enough, the same sort of right to them that Israel claims for
its itself, namely "We bought it from the Ottomans, fair and square!" What
the Ottomans are doing selling Greek heritage is less than clear, even to
the experts, but still, the English are hanging on to their stolen
antiquities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles

A study by Professor David Rudenstine of the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of
Law concluded that the premise that Elgin obtained legal title to the
marbles, which he then transferred to the British government, "is certainly
not established and may well be false"

The Romans pioneered things we use in the home almost every day. They
showed how, on the island of Ventotene*, where Augustus exiled his slut
daughter**, how they built a water collection system using hydraulic cement,
decantation pools and tunnels sloped precisely to cause water to flow fast
enough not to stagnate but slowly enough not to just spill out on the other
end. The system still produces 250K gallons of water per year. How many of
our systems will be working 2,000 years from now? They put the catch field
on the highest part of the island and built cross-shaped cisterns to hold
the water after the debris was decanted. The Romans even invented MSG!
They allowed fish to rot, producing a substance called garum, which
apparently is addictive because of the monosodium glutamate. They put it on
everything, even sweetcakes.

Most fascinating to me was that the amphora design may have caused the ship
to sink. If you've ever seen a Roman amphora . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphora

. . . many of them have pointed or very narrow bottoms and can't stand
alone. The Romans designed them to be stackable and interlocking, so the
pointy bottoms became legs for a huge array of bottles. The problem was, if
one of the bottles on the edge of the array cracked, the whole assembly
pitched toward the broken amphora, breaking even more of them and changing
the very balance of the ship, allowing it to be easily swamped and sunk. I
wonder if the Romans had a version of our modern FAA accident investigation
teams? (-: RGB? The Roman Galley Bureau?

The Parthenon ep showed the tools they used to manipulate huge marble blocks
that they mated together within 1/20 of a millimeter. One of the tools was
a flat stone with hands on each end and funnels scattered over the surface
that allowed sand to pour through. These were worked across the top of each
column segment (drum) until they were perfectly flat. They also showed how
they checked for a tight fit, using colored clay the way we, today, might
crayon mark a sticking door to see where it was binding.

Then, as today, the Romans controlled alcohol licensing, and only Roman
merchants could make and sell wine in the provincial areas. I guess their
version of the ATF would be the WGS (Wine, garum and spears!)

Fascinating stuff, and completely apolitical. (0: "Nova" has always, in my
mind, been the flagship of the PBS network and still teach me stuff at this
old age.

--
Bobby G.

* Ven'toe-ten-Ay
** She turned out not to be a slut, but a political conspirator against her
father.
You should remember that you bought Alaska and Louisiana from people
that didn't own it.
It's okay because America did it? That could be an excuse for a lot of
things. Oh yeah! It is.

snip
I hear there exists a replica in Las Vegas, maybe you should go see
that?


You're just jealous. BTW: Been there and done that. Wouldn't do it
again. :-)

Jim

"Robert Green" wrote:

Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS last night at two programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and negative
ways.

snip

The Romans pioneered things we use in the home almost every day. They
showed how, on the island of Ventotene*, where Augustus exiled his slut
daughter**, how they built a water collection system using hydraulic cement,
decantation pools and tunnels sloped precisely to cause water to flow fast
enough not to stagnate but slowly enough not to just spill out on the other
end. The system still produces 250K gallons of water per year.

I don't think so. What then was the use of the tanker that was shown
and stated to currently bring in the entire island's water supply?
Further, the program showed the narrator (or whatever he was; I missed
the first few minutes) walking through the underground passages.

How many of
our systems will be working 2,000 years from now?

In this area I don't see why not. The system relies on natural
substances (concrete) and gravity. So do most of our water supply
systems.

They put the catch field
on the highest part of the island and built cross-shaped cisterns to hold
the water after the debris was decanted.

Then, as today, the Romans controlled alcohol licensing, and only Roman
merchants could make and sell wine in the provincial areas. I guess their
version of the ATF would be the WGS (Wine, garum and spears!)

Hmm, then as today the country (most countries) controls production
and export of a particular commodity as a means of indirect subsidy
and tariff. Our country brings in moral/religious questions.

Fascinating stuff, and completely apolitical. (0: "Nova" has always, in my
mind, been the flagship of the PBS network and still teach me stuff at this
old age.

Nova as most of the non-fiction programs on PBS still brings in an
unnecessary element of suspense. Here it was something to do with five
days (maybe the narrator turned into a pumpkin?). There's also an
element of false risk as here they talked about (and showed) a
dangerous dive where there was no one to help the diver if he got into
trouble. How about the cameraman, guys? This is not supposed to be
fiction.

At the end talking about Julia you said:

** She turned out not to be a slut, but a political conspirator
against her father.

My comment:

I obviously saw the program but I thought they said that the idea of a
political conspiracy was just the musings of some historian and had no
solid evidence. Personally, I'd be surprised if it were a conspiracy
because based on the reaction of other emperors later on, Augustus
would have had her killed, not just exiled. Further the upper echelons
of this sort of academic pursuit tend to be increasingly filled with
bolshie feminists who'll go to any lengths to show that the female is
not just a warm hole.

On May 26, 8:18*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS


::...leftist PBS...?

HB

last night at two programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. *The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and negative
ways.

In article , Higgs Boson wrote:
On May 26, 8:18=A0pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS


::...leftist PBS...?

Probably to distinguish it from the rightist PBS.

Oh, wait, there isn't one.

wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote:

Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS last night at two
programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and
how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and
negative
ways.

snip

The Romans pioneered things we use in the home almost every day. They
showed how, on the island of Ventotene*, where Augustus exiled his slut
daughter**, how they built a water collection system using hydraulic
cement,
decantation pools and tunnels sloped precisely to cause water to flow
fast
enough not to stagnate but slowly enough not to just spill out on the
other
end. The system still produces 250K gallons of water per year.

I don't think so. What then was the use of the tanker that was shown
and stated to currently bring in the entire island's water supply?
Further, the program showed the narrator (or whatever he was; I missed
the first few minutes) walking through the underground passages.

I assume they've shut it or shunted it for health, maintenance, film-making
or tourism regions. Nothing I saw looked broken - tiled catchfield,
cisterns, pipe runs - so simple a kid could maintain it. Hard to destroy
short of high explosives or earthquake. The Romans, as some of their mad
emperors strongly suggest, used liberal amounts of lead in the plumbing
(hence the periodic table's Pb for lead g). That could be a could reason
I should have used "should still be capable" rather than producing. It did
seem awfully wet to me, as if it's closed for maintenance or even the making
of a PBS special. Granted, they did show the tanker, but 250K gallons
couldn't support the more recent development I saw on the island. I suspect
is was mostly for Julia and some island keepers. But I can't recall whether
they said "all" or "most" of the island's water came from it and it's not
something I feel important enough to check on Maybe they just irrigate with
it, hoping the lead won't affect the plants. But I distinctly remember the
sounds of water sloshing as they walked around in the cistern.

How many of
our systems will be working 2,000 years from now?

In this area I don't see why not. The system relies on natural
substances (concrete) and gravity. So do most of our water supply
systems.

Is that why the water supply in Old Town Alexandria fails during an extended
power failure? (Yes, I know you said "most.") I suspect that more and more
of our water supplies are become reliant on pumps than they perhaps should
be because there's more and more stuff appearing in reservoirs that needs to
be removed before delivery. But I should have been more specific, once
again. How many of our critical infrastructure systems will be functioning
2,000 years from now? My mistake. It's been a long time since my writing's
been edited. Don't worry. I don't mind. I've been red-penciled for a
long, long time.

They put the catch field
on the highest part of the island and built cross-shaped cisterns to hold
the water after the debris was decanted.

Then, as today, the Romans controlled alcohol licensing, and only Roman
merchants could make and sell wine in the provincial areas. I guess
their
version of the ATF would be the WGS (Wine, garum and spears!)

Hmm, then as today the country (most countries) controls production
and export of a particular commodity as a means of indirect subsidy
and tariff. Our country brings in moral/religious questions.

They all do. The French even go to the silly lengths of demanding cultural
language purity and have bitch fights over product names that don't confirm.
Surely you remember the "American Fry" flap? That will all vanish when we
dissolve into a one world cultural goo - and that's coming so fast half the
freight train has already passed over us - and there's another one coming
right behind it.

Fascinating stuff, and completely apolitical. (0: "Nova" has always, in
my
mind, been the flagship of the PBS network and still teach me stuff at
this
old age.

Nova as most of the non-fiction programs on PBS still brings in an
unnecessary element of suspense. Here it was something to do with five
days (maybe the narrator turned into a pumpkin?). There's also an
element of false risk as here they talked about (and showed) a
dangerous dive where there was no one to help the diver if he got into
trouble. How about the cameraman, guys? This is not supposed to be
fiction.

Jeez, Knuckle, have you ever *produced* a weekly anything? Once in my life
I edited the campus weekly. You run out of new ideas around week 10 if
you're VERY lucky. These guys have been on how long? Decades? Quarter
centuries? That they can still find *anything* that would keep people
watching is a miracle to the nth power. I learned something new and even
went to the 'net to learn more. That's a successful program. Excessive
showmanship? They're probably guilty as charged. Do I care? Considering
what else was on at the hour I'd be lying if I said I cared. "Minute to Win
It?" Oy!

At the end talking about Julia you said:

** She turned out not to be a slut, but a political conspirator
against her father.

My comment:

I obviously saw the program but I thought they said that the idea of a
political conspiracy was just the musings of some historian and had no
solid evidence.

Yes, I think that was what we call a "dramatic hook" to keep the wives of
the guys that actually found this program interesting from changing the
channel. Accusing a woman of being a slut and then having her exonerated as
a bold political conspirator - is that not a "chick" story line? I can
imagine at least three layers of useless PBS upper management demanding such
a "hook" for the sake of political correctness. If I cared much about the
real Julia, I would have looked her up. My knowledge of Roman history is
cinematic, from the wonder spectacle movies of the 50's (Ben Hur, The Robe,
The Chalice, Spartacus) so it's clearly deficient in many ways.

There was another hint that sealing her up for slutty behavior was probably
not the reason for her exile since the island was routinely visiting by
ships full of what I assume to be always horny sailors.

Personally, I'd be surprised if it were a conspiracy
because based on the reaction of other emperors later on, Augustus
would have had her killed, not just exiled.

Some people are fonder of their offspring than others, I guess. Even the
homicidal ones. All that lead in the water clearly made some of them foam at
the mouth with paranoid delusions. But as Woody Allen said, just because
you're paranoid DOESN'T mean they're not out to get you.

Further the upper echelons
of this sort of academic pursuit tend to be increasingly filled with
bolshie feminists who'll go to any lengths to show that the female is
not just a warm hole.

What, you want them building the bridges you ride over every day? But
seriously, your misogyny might offend the no more than 10 women I've seen
post here regularly in the last year. I don't care *who* argues with whom
about dead Romans or even whether chipmunks are higher on the evolutionary
scale than suicide bombers. I do care about sensitive professions
(sensitive meaning "can they kill me trying to help me?") being licensed and
regulated because I know human nature. Your comment almost requires asking:
"So what woman passed YOU over for promotion?" (-"

--
Bobby G.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article
, Higgs
Boson wrote:
On May 26, 8:18=A0pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS


::...leftist PBS...?

Probably to distinguish it from the rightist PBS.

Oh, wait, there isn't one.

They're getting better. For a while, every stinking Nature program turned
into an accusatory scold. "See this forest? - YOU killed all the trees with
your voracious desire for wood." I stopped watching for a few years after
my fifth or sixth tele-indictment for crimes against nature. It reminded me
of the very old National Lampoon magazine cover: "Buy this magazine or
we'll shoot this dog!"

--
Bobby G.

On May 28, 4:59*am, wrote:
"Robert Green" wrote:
Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS last night at two programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. *The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and negative
ways.

snip

The Romans pioneered things we use in the home almost every day. *They
showed how, on the island of Ventotene*, where Augustus exiled his slut
daughter**, how they built a water collection system using hydraulic cement,
decantation pools and tunnels sloped precisely to cause water to flow fast
enough not to stagnate but slowly enough not to just spill out on the other
end. *The system still produces 250K gallons of water per year.

I don't think so. What then was the use of the tanker that was shown
and stated to currently bring in the entire island's water supply?
Further, the program showed the narrator (or whatever he was; I missed
the first few minutes) walking through the underground passages.

How many of
our systems will be working 2,000 years from now?

In this area I don't see why not. The system relies on natural
substances (concrete) and gravity. So do most of our water supply
systems.

They put the catch field
on the highest part of the island and built cross-shaped cisterns to hold
the water after the debris was decanted.
Then, as today, the Romans controlled alcohol licensing, and only Roman
merchants could make and sell wine in the provincial areas. *I guess their
version of the ATF would be the WGS (Wine, garum and spears!)

Hmm, then as today the country (most countries) controls production
and export of a particular commodity as a means of indirect subsidy
and tariff. Our country brings in moral/religious questions.

Fascinating stuff, and completely apolitical. *(0: *"Nova" has always, in my
mind, been the flagship of the PBS network and still teach me stuff at this
old age.

Nova as most of the non-fiction programs on PBS still brings in an
unnecessary element of suspense. Here it was something to do with five
days (maybe the narrator turned into a pumpkin?). There's also an
element of false risk as here they talked about (and showed) a
dangerous dive where there was no one to help the diver if he got into
trouble. How about the cameraman, guys? This is not supposed to be
fiction.

At the end talking about Julia you said:

** She turned out not to be a slut, but a political conspirator
against her father.

My comment:

I obviously saw the program but I thought they said that the idea of a
political conspiracy was just the musings of some historian and had no
solid evidence. Personally, I'd be surprised if it were a conspiracy
because based on the reaction of other emperors later on, Augustus
would have had her killed, not just exiled. Further the upper echelons
of this sort of academic pursuit tend to be increasingly filled with
bolshie feminists who'll go to any lengths to show that the female is
not just a warm hole.

In Roman times, women were nothing. The only power they had was purely
manipulative. You ever hear of a Roman woman equestrian, senator or
emperor/ess?
They were pawns in the aristocracy used in political marriages.

This was normal in ancient societies. There were very few exceptions
such as Cleopatra and Hatsepshut. Can't think of a Roman one.
Can't even think of a woman American president.

In Britain there were female warriors and leaders however at that time.

"Robert Green" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
"Robert Green" wrote:

Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS last night at two
programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and
how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and
negative
ways.

snip

It's been a long time since my writing's
been edited. Don't worry. I don't mind. I've been red-penciled for a
long, long time.

I enjoy reading your posts, for at least the reason that you provide
an educated rebuttal to the republican whack jobs one sees here all
the time, but sometimes I see you deviating from the facts and it
makes me sad. When you make an easily correctable error one has to
wonder what else is wrong.

This is not particularly directed at you. We have the same with the
medical industry (for example) who for decades have touted the health
benefits of increasing HDL cholesterol particularly by using a
niacin-based drug but now admit that while niacin will increase HDL it
does nothing to reduce the incidence of heart attack and stroke. If
you read the fine print (not new) on the leading statin (Lipitor)
you'll find that it also has little proven effect on coronaries and
strokes. Just why are we taking these drugs? And more importantly and
pertinently to my point, can we rely on the blatherings of the medical
researchers and the muckety-mucks (Sp? Ask an Englishman familiar with
G&S IIRC) of the industry in general? They screwed up here so they've
probably screwed up in a lot of other areas. The credibility of
people, especially about things you know little about, relies on their
being right on the rest of their pronouncements.

Nova as most of the non-fiction programs on PBS still brings in an
unnecessary element of suspense. Here it was something to do with five
days (maybe the narrator turned into a pumpkin?). There's also an
element of false risk as here they talked about (and showed) a
dangerous dive where there was no one to help the diver if he got into
trouble. How about the cameraman, guys? This is not supposed to be
fiction.

Jeez, Knuckle, have you ever *produced* a weekly anything? Once in my life
I edited the campus weekly. You run out of new ideas around week 10 if
you're VERY lucky. These guys have been on how long? Decades? Quarter
centuries? That they can still find *anything* that would keep people
watching is a miracle to the nth power. I learned something new and even
went to the 'net to learn more. That's a successful program.

Excessive
showmanship? They're probably guilty as charged.

If you want to do "showmanship" do fiction. In this area (ancient
Rome), "I, Claudius" is fascinating, intellectual, and, to the best of
my knowledge, factually correct. Far more riveting than, for example,
this episode, and we really haven't done more than touch on minor
points (e.g. Julia). For example, their hypothesis about why the ship
sank (cargo instability) doesn't ring true. If it was correct, we'd be
seeing a Mediterranean littered with sunken intact ships. Surely the
ship owners of the time would have noticed something wrong and made
corrections.

Do I care? Considering
what else was on at the hour I'd be lying if I said I cared. "Minute to Win
It?" Oy!

Oh, I'll give you some topics that to my knowledge haven't been
touched (I don't know where they actually belong though):

- Engineering marvels of the Victorian era such as the Manchester boat
lift (and the associated ship canal). There's a similar but more
modern one at Strasbourg.
- For the politically incorrect: the development of the original VW
with a side view of the autobahns. While in Germany, the development
of cures for Syphilis and TB and the formation of Koch's postulates.
- Also major political incorrectness especially this Memorial day: How
FDR caused Pearl Harbor and our involvement in WW2. (Just what do you
think we'd do if someone cut off today all our access to oil?)
- Politically neutral: the fight of the Polish POW's back to their
homeland at the end of WW1 (the Trans-Siberian figures heavily)

At the end talking about Julia you said:

** She turned out not to be a slut, but a political conspirator
against her father.

My comment:

I obviously saw the program but I thought they said that the idea of a
political conspiracy was just the musings of some historian and had no
solid evidence.

Yes, I think that was what we call a "dramatic hook" to keep the wives of
the guys that actually found this program interesting from changing the
channel. Accusing a woman of being a slut and then having her exonerated as
a bold political conspirator - is that not a "chick" story line? I can
imagine at least three layers of useless PBS upper management demanding such
a "hook" for the sake of political correctness. If I cared much about the
real Julia, I would have looked her up.

I don't think you'd find anything very reliable.

My knowledge of Roman history is
cinematic, from the wonder spectacle movies of the 50's (Ben Hur, The Robe,
The Chalice, Spartacus) so it's clearly deficient in many ways.

Nothing wrong with that. My knowledge of ancient Egypt comes from the
novels of Mika Waltari.

There was another hint that sealing her up for slutty behavior was probably
not the reason for her exile since the island was routinely visiting by
ships full of what I assume to be always horny sailors.

Hmmm. Totally different class of people. I don't think so. You could
make the same comment about her keepers and it'd probably be at least
dubious for the same reasons.

What, you want them building the bridges you ride over every day? But
seriously, your misogyny might offend the no more than 10 women I've seen
post here regularly in the last year. I don't care *who* argues with whom
about dead Romans or even whether chipmunks are higher on the evolutionary
scale than suicide bombers. I do care about sensitive professions
(sensitive meaning "can they kill me trying to help me?") being licensed and
regulated because I know human nature. Your comment almost requires asking:
"So what woman passed YOU over for promotion?" (-"

No misogyny. I love women, especially the young and pretty ones g
but in 1960 (the year of the approval of the BC pill), they lost their
main jobs (breeding and the care of the young) and from that point on
they've been changing the facts in an effort to horn in on the male
preserve. Good thing that they lost their jobs otherwise we'd be even
more awash with surplus people than we currently are (witness: Arab
Spring) but instead of trying to turn into pseudo men they should have
split apart the breeding into the pre-production and main event as the
pill and many of the feminists of the sixties promised. I'm still
waiting for that promise to be fulfilled.

On May 30, 4:47*am, wrote:
"Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
"Robert Green" wrote:

Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS last night at two
programs,
one about the Parthenon, the other about sunken Roman ships. *The second
program turned out to be a lot more about the Roman Empire itself, and
how
they made engineering a facet of every part of their lives. What's also
fascinating is how much the US resembles Rome, in both positive and
negative
ways.
snip
It's been a long time since my writing's
been edited. *Don't worry. *I don't mind. *I've been red-penciled for a
long, long time.

I enjoy reading your posts, for at least the reason that you provide
an educated rebuttal to the republican whack jobs one sees here all
the time, but sometimes I see you deviating from the facts and it
makes me sad. When you make an easily correctable error one has to
wonder what else is wrong.

This is not particularly directed at you. We have the same with the
medical industry (for example) who for decades have touted the health
benefits of increasing HDL cholesterol particularly by using a
niacin-based drug but now admit that while niacin will increase HDL it
does nothing to reduce the incidence of heart attack and stroke. If
you read the fine print (not new) on the leading statin (Lipitor)
you'll find that it also has little proven effect on coronaries and
strokes. Just why are we taking these drugs? And more importantly and
pertinently to my point, can we rely on the blatherings of the medical
researchers and the muckety-mucks (Sp? Ask an Englishman familiar with
G&S IIRC) of the industry in general? They screwed up here so they've
probably screwed up in a lot of other areas. The credibility of
people, especially about things you know little about, relies on their
being right on the rest of their pronouncements. *

Nova as most of the non-fiction programs on PBS still brings in an
unnecessary element of suspense. Here it was something to do with five
days (maybe the narrator turned into a pumpkin?). There's also an
element of false risk as here they talked about (and showed) a
dangerous dive where there was no one to help the diver if he got into
trouble. How about the cameraman, guys? This is not supposed to be
fiction.
Jeez, Knuckle, have you ever *produced* a weekly anything? *Once in my life
I edited the campus weekly. *You run out of new ideas around week 10 if
you're VERY lucky. *These guys have been on how long? *Decades? *Quarter
centuries? *That they can still find *anything* that would keep people
watching is a miracle to the nth power. *I learned something new and even
went to the 'net to learn more. *That's a successful program.
*Excessive
showmanship? *They're probably guilty as charged.

If you want to do "showmanship" do fiction. In this area (ancient
Rome), "I, Claudius" is fascinating, intellectual, and, to the best of
my knowledge, factually correct. Far more riveting than, for example,
this episode, and we really haven't done more than touch on minor
points (e.g. Julia). For example, their hypothesis about why the ship
sank (cargo instability) doesn't ring true. If it was correct, we'd be
seeing a Mediterranean littered with sunken intact ships. Surely the
ship owners of the time would have noticed something wrong and made
corrections.

*Do I care? *Considering
what else was on at the hour I'd be lying if I said I cared. *"Minute to Win
It?" Oy!

Oh, I'll give you some topics that to my knowledge haven't been
touched (I don't know where they actually belong though):

- Engineering marvels of the Victorian era such as the Manchester boat
lift (and the associated ship canal). There's a similar but more
modern one at Strasbourg.
- For the politically incorrect: the development of the original VW
with a side view of the autobahns. While in Germany, the development
of cures for Syphilis and TB and the formation of Koch's postulates.
- Also major political incorrectness especially this Memorial day: How
FDR caused Pearl Harbor and our involvement in WW2. (Just what do you
think we'd do if someone cut off today all our access to oil?)
- Politically neutral: the fight of the Polish POW's back to their
homeland at the end of WW1 (the Trans-Siberian figures heavily)





At the end talking about Julia you said:
** She turned out not to be a slut, but a political conspirator
against her father.

My comment:

I obviously saw the program but I thought they said that the idea of a
political conspiracy was just the musings of some historian and had no
solid evidence.

Yes, I think that was what we call a "dramatic hook" to keep the wives of
the guys that actually found this program interesting from changing the
channel. *Accusing a woman of being a slut and then having her exonerated as
a bold political conspirator - is that not a "chick" story line? *I can
imagine at least three layers of useless PBS upper management demanding such
a "hook" for the sake of political correctness. *If I cared much about the
real Julia, I would have looked her up.

I don't think you'd find anything very reliable.

*My knowledge of Roman history is
cinematic, from the wonder spectacle movies of the 50's (Ben Hur, The Robe,
The Chalice, Spartacus) so it's clearly deficient in many ways.

Nothing wrong with that. My knowledge of ancient Egypt comes from the
novels of Mika Waltari.

There was another hint that sealing her up for slutty behavior was probably
not the reason for her exile since the island was routinely visiting by
ships full of what I assume to be always horny sailors.

Hmmm. Totally different class of people. I don't think so. You could
make the same comment about her keepers and it'd probably be at least
dubious for the same reasons.

What, you want them building the bridges you ride over every day? *But
seriously, your misogyny might offend the no more than 10 women I've seen
post here regularly in the last year. *I don't care *who* argues with whom
about dead Romans or even whether chipmunks are higher on the evolutionary
scale than suicide bombers. *I do care about sensitive professions
(sensitive meaning "can they kill me trying to help me?") being licensed and
regulated because I know human nature. *Your comment almost requires asking:
"So what woman passed YOU over for promotion?" *(-"

No misogyny. I love women, especially the young and pretty ones g
but in 1960 (the year of the approval of the BC pill), they lost their
main jobs (breeding and the care of the young) and from that point on
they've been changing the facts in an effort to horn in on the male
preserve. Good thing that they lost their jobs otherwise we'd be even
more awash with surplus people than we currently are (witness: Arab
Spring) but instead of trying to turn into pseudo men they should have
split apart the breeding into the pre-production and main event as the
pill and many of the feminists of the sixties promised. I'm still
waiting for that promise to be fulfilled.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are many more than that one.
http://www.canaljunction.com/news/abl.htm

And we are still building entirely new designs.
http://www.falkirkbid.com/attraction...6/Default.aspx

On May 26, 8:18*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS

This puerile crack vitiates your comments. One has no desire to read
further.

[...]

HB

On Jun 1, 4:06*am, Higgs Boson wrote:
On May 26, 8:18*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:

Slightly off-topic, I was watching leftist PBS

This puerile crack vitiates your comments. *One has no desire to read
further.

[...]

HB

I DONT KNOW..HE SEEMS TO HAVE RUBBED OFF SOME OF HIS SNOOTINESS ONYA.
BOOWAHAHAHA
TGITM