David Nebenzahl wrote:
Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump pump
solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump pump
solution.

Not knowing a lot about this equipment, I did a little research.
Starting at a business that was suggested by the client (Sump Pump
Direct, http://www.sumppumpdirect.com), I found the following.

There are two types of units available. One is a battery-backed power
supply, essentially a UPS, though they're not called that in this
application. These are used to power existing ordinary AC operated sump
pumps.

The other thing available are sump pump back-up "systems". These are
pumps that are designed to operate from household AC *or* 12 volt DC
battery power. When power fails, they switch to DC and run from a sealed
lead-acid battery. The whole thing is sold as a unit and replaces an
existing sump pump.

My customer already has a sump pump installed (two, actually). She also
has frequent power outages during the times when the pump is needed.
These outages can last as much as 4-6 hours.

I've looked at some of these "back-up system" pumps. They don't give me
a whole lot of confidence that they'll be there on the job when needed.
And while one of them claims a "battery life" of 7.5 hours, I'm not sure
that means it'll actually run that long on battery power.

I'd like to at least research the other (UPS) alternative. One unit on
the Sump Pump Direct site is this one:

http://www.sumppumpdirect.com/produc...a ckUp_System
(sorry for long link)

It looks great; uses two deep cycle 120-amp marine batteries. Only
problem: these systems "start at" $1,800 (not incl. batteries). No thanks.

I then discovered that it's very difficult to sort through all the UPSs
available out there in web-land. I stopped looking after most of my
searches returned results from bizrate.com, nextag.com, and other
scum-of-the-earth, shake-you-down with tons of ads while you're sucked
through their vortex of web sites.

I did look at some UPSs at this site:

http://www.powersupersite.com

They have a ton. But when you actually find one that looks like it might
work for you, they have virtually no technical details available (like
one crucial one in my case, how long it'll provide battery power).

So I'm hoping someone here might have experience with these units. I
know that most UPSs are made for computers, network gear, etc. But if
there is one that can provide enough power for the sump pump motor
(including any starting inrush current) for long enough, it should work.
I'm not absolutely sure of the motor ratings at this point, but I would
reasonably assume a maximum of 1/2 HP (induction motor), so probably 7-8
amps operating current max. I will, of course, nail this down before
seriously recommending a UPS, if it comes to that.

Of course, it needs to be reasonably inexpensive. $3-400, maybe: $1200,
I don't think so.

Any help here much appreciated.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

On 3/31/2011 9:10 PM Bob F spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump
pump solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/31/2011 9:10 PM Bob F spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump
pump solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.


YOu asked for help.
You got an interesting suggestion.
You turned your nose up.
Why not take the time to research it
before....

On Mar 31, 11:15*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/31/2011 9:10 PM Bob F spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump
pump solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.

--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

* *yo
* *wassup
* *nuttin
* *wan2 hang
* *k
* *where
* *here
* *k
* *l8tr
* *by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

Maybe I missed the detail but what is the amount of work & rate that
need to be addressed?

Current sump pump performance specs?

Hmmm looks like water powered pumps aren't such a crazy idea after
all....who woulda think?

http://ezinearticles.com/?Backup-Sum...ou?&id=3507404

Actually water powered pumps are a fairly common choice for emergency
situations.

cheers
Bob

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:20:09 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump pump
solution.

Not knowing a lot about this equipment, I did a little research.
Starting at a business that was suggested by the client (Sump Pump
Direct, http://www.sumppumpdirect.com), I found the following.

There are two types of units available. One is a battery-backed power
supply, essentially a UPS, though they're not called that in this
application. These are used to power existing ordinary AC operated sump
pumps.

The other thing available are sump pump back-up "systems". These are
pumps that are designed to operate from household AC *or* 12 volt DC
battery power. When power fails, they switch to DC and run from a sealed
lead-acid battery. The whole thing is sold as a unit and replaces an
existing sump pump.

My customer already has a sump pump installed (two, actually). She also
has frequent power outages during the times when the pump is needed.
These outages can last as much as 4-6 hours.

I've looked at some of these "back-up system" pumps. They don't give me
a whole lot of confidence that they'll be there on the job when needed.
And while one of them claims a "battery life" of 7.5 hours, I'm not sure
that means it'll actually run that long on battery power.

I'd like to at least research the other (UPS) alternative. One unit on
the Sump Pump Direct site is this one:

http://www.sumppumpdirect.com/produc...a ckUp_System
(sorry for long link)

It looks great; uses two deep cycle 120-amp marine batteries. Only
problem: these systems "start at" $1,800 (not incl. batteries). No thanks.

I then discovered that it's very difficult to sort through all the UPSs
available out there in web-land. I stopped looking after most of my
searches returned results from bizrate.com, nextag.com, and other
scum-of-the-earth, shake-you-down with tons of ads while you're sucked
through their vortex of web sites.

I did look at some UPSs at this site:

http://www.powersupersite.com

They have a ton. But when you actually find one that looks like it might
work for you, they have virtually no technical details available (like
one crucial one in my case, how long it'll provide battery power).

So I'm hoping someone here might have experience with these units. I
know that most UPSs are made for computers, network gear, etc. But if
there is one that can provide enough power for the sump pump motor
(including any starting inrush current) for long enough, it should work.
I'm not absolutely sure of the motor ratings at this point, but I would
reasonably assume a maximum of 1/2 HP (induction motor), so probably 7-8
amps operating current max. I will, of course, nail this down before
seriously recommending a UPS, if it comes to that.

Of course, it needs to be reasonably inexpensive. $3-400, maybe: $1200,
I don't think so.

Any help here much appreciated.

Forget about a UPS solution for $400. Using your figures, you need
say 8 amps @ 120 volts for 6 hours. To get that from 12 volt
batteries, assuming 90% conversion efficiency (very unlikely in cheap
equipment) you will be drawing about 89 amps from the batteries. For
6 hours, that means you need 534 amp hours of capacity. To get that
capacity with reasonable battery life (meaning you can still get that
capacity as the batteries get older) you'd need to start with a
minimum of 6 120 amp hour deep cycle batteries.

You're already well over your price targe, and you don't have any
electronics. Even if you assume 50% duty cycle for the pump you're
not going to do it for $400.

I have two of the Basement Watchdog 12 volt systems. They will run
for a few hours continuous when the battery is new. Depending how
much lift you have and how much water you need to move.. one of those
may do the job; but in my experience you are really pushing it. They
work well for relatively short 1-2 hour outages and modest lift and
flow applications.

If there is city water, a water powered backup pump is a perfecty
reasonable solution here, and will be close to your price target.

The solution you really want is an automatic backup generator, nat gas
or Propane fueled. Figure $5k minimum, but you get the advantage of
having some power for other things as well.

HTH,

Paul F.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 3/31/2011 9:10 PM Bob F spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump
pump solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.

City water powered backup sump pumps, venturi type pumps with something
like a 3:1 pumping ratio. Unlike battery backed sump pumps these can run
indefinitely as long as city water pressure remains available. They also
don't need battery maintenance or periodic replacement.

I wonder if you can get a UPS from a nearby computer
products store. Open the box, and wire the internal battery
in parallel with a marine trolling battery. For about $100
you'd get a good UPS, and for another 100, a battery. Use
this to power the existing sump pump. I havn't actually
tried this, but the idea is there.

A HP is 748 watts. there is a starting current, but most UPS
can handle a bit of startup current. Most sump pumps are 1/2
HP at the max. So, a 700 watt UPS should handle most sump
pumps. The often neglected factor is the wires from the
battery to the UPS, the 12 volt power requirements tend to
be a lot of amps.

It would be a good idea to bring ammeter along, and see what
the startup and run currents of the existing sump are. That
will give you a lot more information that's needed.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed
sump pump
solution.

Not knowing a lot about this equipment, I did a little
research.
Starting at a business that was suggested by the client
(Sump Pump
Direct, http://www.sumppumpdirect.com), I found the
following.

There are two types of units available. One is a
battery-backed power
supply, essentially a UPS, though they're not called that in
this
application. These are used to power existing ordinary AC
operated sump
pumps.

The other thing available are sump pump back-up "systems".
These are
pumps that are designed to operate from household AC *or* 12
volt DC
battery power. When power fails, they switch to DC and run
from a sealed
lead-acid battery. The whole thing is sold as a unit and
replaces an
existing sump pump.

My customer already has a sump pump installed (two,
actually). She also
has frequent power outages during the times when the pump is
needed.
These outages can last as much as 4-6 hours.

I've looked at some of these "back-up system" pumps. They
don't give me
a whole lot of confidence that they'll be there on the job
when needed.
And while one of them claims a "battery life" of 7.5 hours,
I'm not sure
that means it'll actually run that long on battery power.

I'd like to at least research the other (UPS) alternative.
One unit on
the Sump Pump Direct site is this one:

http://www.sumppumpdirect.com/produc...a ckUp_System
(sorry for long link)

It looks great; uses two deep cycle 120-amp marine
batteries. Only
problem: these systems "start at" $1,800 (not incl.
batteries). No thanks.

I then discovered that it's very difficult to sort through
all the UPSs
available out there in web-land. I stopped looking after
most of my
searches returned results from bizrate.com, nextag.com, and
other
scum-of-the-earth, shake-you-down with tons of ads while
you're sucked
through their vortex of web sites.

I did look at some UPSs at this site:

http://www.powersupersite.com

They have a ton. But when you actually find one that looks
like it might
work for you, they have virtually no technical details
available (like
one crucial one in my case, how long it'll provide battery
power).

So I'm hoping someone here might have experience with these
units. I
know that most UPSs are made for computers, network gear,
etc. But if
there is one that can provide enough power for the sump pump
motor
(including any starting inrush current) for long enough, it
should work.
I'm not absolutely sure of the motor ratings at this point,
but I would
reasonably assume a maximum of 1/2 HP (induction motor), so
probably 7-8
amps operating current max. I will, of course, nail this
down before
seriously recommending a UPS, if it comes to that.

Of course, it needs to be reasonably inexpensive. $3-400,
maybe: $1200,
I don't think so.

Any help here much appreciated.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

On Apr 1, 8:13*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I wonder if you can get a UPS from a nearby computer
products store. Open the box, and wire the internal battery
in parallel with a marine trolling battery. For about $100
you'd get a good UPS, and for another 100, a battery. Use
this to power the existing sump pump. I havn't actually
tried this, but the idea is there.

A HP is 748 watts. there is a starting current, but most UPS
can handle a bit of startup current. Most sump pumps are 1/2
HP at the max. So, a 700 watt UPS should handle most sump
pumps. The often neglected factor is the wires from the
battery to the UPS, the 12 volt power requirements tend to
be a lot of amps.

It would be a good idea to bring ammeter along, and see what
the startup and run currents of the existing sump are. That
will give you a lot more information that's needed.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message

s.com...
Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed
sump pump
solution.

Not knowing a lot about this equipment, I did a little
research.
Starting at a business that was suggested by the client
(Sump Pump
Direct,http://www.sumppumpdirect.com), I found the
following.

There are two types of units available. One is a
battery-backed power
supply, essentially a UPS, though they're not called that in
this
application. These are used to power existing ordinary AC
operated sump
pumps.

The other thing available are sump pump back-up "systems".
These are
pumps that are designed to operate from household AC *or* 12
volt DC
battery power. When power fails, they switch to DC and run
from a sealed
lead-acid battery. The whole thing is sold as a unit and
replaces an
existing sump pump.

My customer already has a sump pump installed (two,
actually). She also
has frequent power outages during the times when the pump is
needed.
These outages can last as much as 4-6 hours.

I've looked at some of these "back-up system" pumps. They
don't give me
a whole lot of confidence that they'll be there on the job
when needed.
And while one of them claims a "battery life" of 7.5 hours,
I'm not sure
that means it'll actually run that long on battery power.

I'd like to at least research the other (UPS) alternative.
One unit on
the Sump Pump Direct site is this one:

http://www.sumppumpdirect.com/produc..._E_45_A_subCat...
(sorry for long link)

It looks great; uses two deep cycle 120-amp marine
batteries. Only
problem: these systems "start at" $1,800 (not incl.
batteries). No thanks.

I then discovered that it's very difficult to sort through
all the UPSs
available out there in web-land. I stopped looking after
most of my
searches returned results from bizrate.com, nextag.com, and
other
scum-of-the-earth, shake-you-down with tons of ads while
you're sucked
through their vortex of web sites.

I did look at some UPSs at this site:

http://www.powersupersite.com

They have a ton. But when you actually find one that looks
like it might
work for you, they have virtually no technical details
available (like
one crucial one in my case, how long it'll provide battery
power).

So I'm hoping someone here might have experience with these
units. I
know that most UPSs are made for computers, network gear,
etc. But if
there is one that can provide enough power for the sump pump
motor
(including any starting inrush current) for long enough, it
should work.
I'm not absolutely sure of the motor ratings at this point,
but I would
reasonably assume a maximum of 1/2 HP (induction motor), so
probably 7-8
amps operating current max. I will, of course, nail this
down before
seriously recommending a UPS, if it comes to that.

Of course, it needs to be reasonably inexpensive. $3-400,
maybe: $1200,
I don't think so.

Any help here much appreciated.

--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

* *yo
* *wassup
* *nuttin
* *wan2 hang
* *k
* *where
* *here
* *k
* *l8tr
* *by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

As another poster pointed out if you want significant runtime you'll
need a whole bunch of batteries. We have large scale ups in our
computer rooms. Part of maintaining them is the regularly scheduled
pallets of replacement batteries.

A generator is a far better solution and can be extended to operate
other things in the house. Main problem is do you need an automatic
start and transfer generator or is the customer around during these
power outages to start a generator and throw some transfer switches?
That's usually the big price break.

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 22:15:45 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 3/31/2011 9:10 PM Bob F spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump pump
solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.

Been around since the 1800s (at least), but mostly seems to be "forgotten
technology" these days. Could work in this situation, I think, so long as
everyone isn't doing it :-)

cheers

Jules

On Apr 1, 9:16*am, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 22:15:45 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/31/2011 9:10 PM Bob F spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump pump
solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.

Been around since the 1800s (at least), but mostly seems to be "forgotten
technology" these days. Could work in this situation, I think, so long as
everyone isn't doing it :-)

cheers

Jules

I think commonly the ones that have been around a long time are not so
much the the venturi ones, but rather the water powered pumps. They
are cool. Often used in creeks where the water is running downhill.
Just lay a 1000 feet or so of pipe in the creek bed or next to it and
then use the pressure from the elevation drop to pump water. They
waste a lot of water but in that situation the discharge is right back
into the creek where it came from. Great if you do not have
electricity.

In addition to if the customer is home, we also
need to ask the customer's level of competence
and confidence with equipment. Some folks can
gas up a generator, wire it in, and transfer the
power over. Other folks do not have those skills.

One survivalist friend of mine is a retired factory
worker. He'd be fine with all this -- except that he
travels by wheel chair, and doesn't have the shoulder
strength to pull a rope start.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jamesgangnc"
wrote in message
...

A generator is a far better solution and can be extended to
operate
other things in the house. Main problem is do you need an
automatic
start and transfer generator or is the customer around
during these
power outages to start a generator and throw some transfer
switches?
That's usually the big price break.

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

It would be a good idea to bring an ammeter along, and see what
the startup current of the existing sump is.

Yes, take along your $3 Harbor Freight meter. Those are terrific for
measuring startup current.

On Apr 1, 10:29*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
In addition to if the customer is home, we also
need to ask the customer's level of competence
and confidence with equipment. Some folks can
gas up a generator, wire it in, and transfer the
power over. Other folks do not have those skills.

One survivalist friend of mine is a retired factory
worker. He'd be fine with all this -- except that he
travels by wheel chair, and doesn't have the shoulder
strength to pull a rope start.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

A generator is a far better solution and can be extended to
operate
other things in the house. *Main problem is do you need an
automatic
start and transfer generator or is the customer around
during these
power outages to start a generator and throw some transfer
switches?
That's usually the big price break.

You can make that pretty straight forward and electric start
generators can still be had for a reasonable price. But they tend to
be a bit bigger. The smaller 1-2 kw ones are all pull start. My main
point being that the biggest price break is when you go from that sort
of setup to the completely automated setup. The ones that start the
generator and transfer the load when the power fails without you doing
anything.

My $3 meter doesn't do AC amps. HF does have a couple clamp
on ammeters, priced in the $12 to $20 range.
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital...ter-96308.html
Small enough for most tool boxes.
http://www.harborfreight.com/clamp-o...ter-95683.html
A bit bigger, for guys who like em big.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news In article ,
"Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

It would be a good idea to bring an ammeter along, and see
what
the startup current of the existing sump is.

Yes, take along your $3 Harbor Freight meter. Those are
terrific for
measuring startup current.

On 4/1/2011 12:20 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump pump
solution.

Not knowing a lot about this equipment, I did a little research.
Starting at a business that was suggested by the client (Sump Pump
Direct, http://www.sumppumpdirect.com), I found the following.

There are two types of units available. One is a battery-backed power
supply, essentially a UPS, though they're not called that in this
application. These are used to power existing ordinary AC operated sump
pumps.

The other thing available are sump pump back-up "systems". These are
pumps that are designed to operate from household AC *or* 12 volt DC
battery power. When power fails, they switch to DC and run from a sealed
lead-acid battery. The whole thing is sold as a unit and replaces an
existing sump pump.

My customer already has a sump pump installed (two, actually). She also
has frequent power outages during the times when the pump is needed.
These outages can last as much as 4-6 hours.

I've looked at some of these "back-up system" pumps. They don't give me
a whole lot of confidence that they'll be there on the job when needed.
And while one of them claims a "battery life" of 7.5 hours, I'm not sure
that means it'll actually run that long on battery power.

I'd like to at least research the other (UPS) alternative. One unit on
the Sump Pump Direct site is this one:

http://www.sumppumpdirect.com/produc...a ckUp_System

(sorry for long link)

It looks great; uses two deep cycle 120-amp marine batteries. Only
problem: these systems "start at" $1,800 (not incl. batteries). No thanks.

I then discovered that it's very difficult to sort through all the UPSs
available out there in web-land. I stopped looking after most of my
searches returned results from bizrate.com, nextag.com, and other
scum-of-the-earth, shake-you-down with tons of ads while you're sucked
through their vortex of web sites.

I did look at some UPSs at this site:

http://www.powersupersite.com

They have a ton. But when you actually find one that looks like it might
work for you, they have virtually no technical details available (like
one crucial one in my case, how long it'll provide battery power).

So I'm hoping someone here might have experience with these units. I
know that most UPSs are made for computers, network gear, etc. But if
there is one that can provide enough power for the sump pump motor
(including any starting inrush current) for long enough, it should work.
I'm not absolutely sure of the motor ratings at this point, but I would
reasonably assume a maximum of 1/2 HP (induction motor), so probably 7-8
amps operating current max. I will, of course, nail this down before
seriously recommending a UPS, if it comes to that.

Of course, it needs to be reasonably inexpensive. $3-400, maybe: $1200,
I don't think so.

Any help here much appreciated.


Just point your browser to http://tinyurl.com/3el3b7y and take a look. I
have had one of these systems for approximately seven (7) years and it
has saved my tush several times. This system will kick in if the power
goes out or if your current sump pump simply quits working for some
reason such as the switch goes bad, etc. I did replace the battery after
six (6) just to be on the safe side.

Don

"IGot2P" wrote in message
...
On 4/1/2011 12:20 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump pump
solution.
Just point your browser to http://tinyurl.com/3el3b7y and take a look. I
have had one of these systems for approximately seven (7) years and it
has saved my tush several times. This system will kick in if the power
goes out or if your current sump pump simply quits working for some
reason such as the switch goes bad, etc. I did replace the battery after
six (6) just to be on the safe side.

I have a very similar system (seems exactly the same except the pump is
yellow). It's mounted in the sump on a cinder block so that if the main
sump fails for any reason, when the water level rises just over the
cinderblock the emergency sump kicks in. If you're in the middle of a 1000
year flood, you can recharge the battery with your car and some jumper
cables, I suppose.

It's never been an issue for me because I have a number of wheelchair
batteries around that aren't quite dead but don't hold the charge they used
to. They'll still power the pump for a few hours run time if the main
battery gets depleted. So far I've never had to use them. Someone
previously talked about why these systems don't give a "run time" for their
batteries; I assume that's because each situation is different. If you're
in the middle of that 1000 year flood the pump might have to run
continously. Otherwise, it could run every 2, 5, 10, 50 minutes, etc.

Systems that run 120VAC pumps really don't lend themselves to battery
operation without a lot of conversion losses from 12VDC batteries to 120VAC
current. That's why I got a 12VDC powered emergency sump. I'll be helping
to install one for my neighbor, hopefully in time for the spring rains, and
I'll try to document the procedure with words and pictures. Her AC sump
failed and swamped her basement during the most recent bi-annual 100 year
flood. (-:

It's really simple. Mount it above the existing pump so that it only
activates when the main sump fails and the water level in the sump rises
high enough to reach the emergency sump's activation switches which are
housed in a safety cage to prevent debris from interfering with the floats.
I screened my sump cover because it's outside at the base of a stairwell and
it can collect a bag full of leaves in a day or two in the fall.

--
Bobby G.

On Apr 1, 1:15*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/31/2011 9:10 PM Bob F spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump
pump solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.

--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

* *yo
* *wassup
* *nuttin
* *wan2 hang
* *k
* *where
* *here
* *k
* *l8tr
* *by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

He is serious, so am I, a water powered pump with standard city
pressure water will outpump by many times any battery powered unit you
get of box store quality. And pump 24hrs a day. You dont have a
limited pumping time which is rated with a new battery, no electric
increase in your bill keeping it maintained, www.basepump.com www.zoeller.com
have water powered pumps. Zoeller is a big commercial name in pumps.
Compare GPH and Gpd stats, I look on battery stuff from the box stores
as toys, gimmics. And who checks the battery every few years with the
right equipment, you wont know how long it will run in 3-4 years.

On Apr 1, 3:26*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/1/2011 10:53 AM Ranger Gord spake thus:

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...mp-628088-.htm
Ranger Gord wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Any help here much appreciated.

The answer is the NexPump Intelligent Sump System. It uses high efficiency
pumps that pump twice as much as other.

www.nexpump.com

Y'know, I do appreciate helpful, thoughtful answers to questions I pose
here. And I do try to keep an open mind when people suggest solutions.

But this particular piece of advice reeeeeally strains my tolerance.
There are *so many* off-putting things about that web site. Let me list
some of them:

* They post a *video* as their main source of information, at the top of
the page. Bad idea. I don't go to commercial web sites wanting to watch
videos. For one thing, I (like a lot of other people) don't have a
high-speed internet connection.

* Right off the bat they mention "artificial intelligence": "The
NexPump Ai is the ONLY sump pump built with Artificial intelligence!***".

I don't want a sump pump with artificial intelligence (which all too
often turns out to be artificial ignorance). I want a goddamn sump pump
that will work when the power goes out, is all.

* Where are their products? No links to products, no products shown on
front page. Oh, they want me to go to their "Support/Downloads" page and
download a ****ing PDF? (6 megabytes, no less) Why not just some simple
HTML links to the goddamn products, like everyone else manages to do it
for chrissakes?

So no, not overly impressed with your suggestion. Not to mention that it
comes via those bottom-feeding, Usenet-scraping scoundrels at the
Homeowner's Hub, may they eat **** and die (I can't wait to see this
message posted on their site!).

And pray tell, what do you mean by "pump twice as much as other
[pumps]"? Twice the pressure? head height? running time? *something else?

--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

* *yo
* *wassup
* *nuttin
* *wan2 hang
* *k
* *where
* *here
* *k
* *l8tr
* *by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

www.basepump.com www.zoeller.com water powered pumps, I hope the
link is correct, the co names are. Zoeller is a true commercial pump
co making all types of pumps.

On 4/1/2011 3:26 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/1/2011 10:53 AM Ranger Gord spake thus:

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...mp-628088-.htm
Ranger Gord wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Any help here much appreciated.

The answer is the NexPump Intelligent Sump System. It uses high
efficiency
pumps that pump twice as much as other.

www.nexpump.com

Y'know, I do appreciate helpful, thoughtful answers to questions I pose
here. And I do try to keep an open mind when people suggest solutions.

But this particular piece of advice reeeeeally strains my tolerance.
There are *so many* off-putting things about that web site. Let me list
some of them:

* They post a *video* as their main source of information, at the top of
the page. Bad idea. I don't go to commercial web sites wanting to watch
videos. For one thing, I (like a lot of other people) don't have a
high-speed internet connection.

* Right off the bat they mention "artificial intelligence": "The
NexPump® Ai is the ONLY sump pump built with Artificial intelligence!***".

I don't want a sump pump with artificial intelligence (which all too
often turns out to be artificial ignorance). I want a goddamn sump pump
that will work when the power goes out, is all.

* Where are their products? No links to products, no products shown on
front page. Oh, they want me to go to their "Support/Downloads" page and
download a ****ing PDF? (6 megabytes, no less) Why not just some simple
HTML links to the goddamn products, like everyone else manages to do it
for chrissakes?

So no, not overly impressed with your suggestion. Not to mention that it
comes via those bottom-feeding, Usenet-scraping scoundrels at the
Homeowner's Hub, may they eat **** and die (I can't wait to see this
message posted on their site!).

And pray tell, what do you mean by "pump twice as much as other
[pumps]"? Twice the pressure? head height? running time? something else?


David, did you look at the URL that I posted? This system even runs
without discharging the battery when the power is on so if your other
pump fails for some reason besides lack of power you are still covered.

Don (who has one but is not associated with the company in any way)

On 4/1/2011 10:53 AM Ranger Gord spake thus:

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...mp-628088-.htm
Ranger Gord wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Any help here much appreciated.

The answer is the NexPump Intelligent Sump System. It uses high efficiency
pumps that pump twice as much as other.

www.nexpump.com

Y'know, I do appreciate helpful, thoughtful answers to questions I pose
here. And I do try to keep an open mind when people suggest solutions.

But this particular piece of advice reeeeeally strains my tolerance.
There are *so many* off-putting things about that web site. Let me list
some of them:

* They post a *video* as their main source of information, at the top of
the page. Bad idea. I don't go to commercial web sites wanting to watch
videos. For one thing, I (like a lot of other people) don't have a
high-speed internet connection.

* Right off the bat they mention "artificial intelligence": "The
NexPump® Ai is the ONLY sump pump built with Artificial intelligence!***".

I don't want a sump pump with artificial intelligence (which all too
often turns out to be artificial ignorance). I want a goddamn sump pump
that will work when the power goes out, is all.

* Where are their products? No links to products, no products shown on
front page. Oh, they want me to go to their "Support/Downloads" page and
download a ****ing PDF? (6 megabytes, no less) Why not just some simple
HTML links to the goddamn products, like everyone else manages to do it
for chrissakes?

So no, not overly impressed with your suggestion. Not to mention that it
comes via those bottom-feeding, Usenet-scraping scoundrels at the
Homeowner's Hub, may they eat **** and die (I can't wait to see this
message posted on their site!).

And pray tell, what do you mean by "pump twice as much as other
[pumps]"? Twice the pressure? head height? running time? something else?


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

Dear Shirley,
I've heard them mentioned before. They can work, but
waste a lot of domestic water.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...


Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

"ransley" wrote in message
news:fafa309d-a4a8-424d-831f-
stuff snipped

www.basepump.com www.zoeller.com water powered pumps, I hope the
link is correct, the co names are. Zoeller is a true commercial pump
co making all types of pumps.

Isn't the real downside of a water powered sump pump that you're adding more
water to the effluent in what could be a torrential rain? I agree that if
there's nothing else available they would be OK but a 12VDC pump will do a
great job without adding to the flood.

--
Bobby G.

It looks great; uses two deep cycle 120-amp marine batteries. Only
problem: these systems "start at" $1,800 (not incl. batteries). No thanks.

$1200 without batteries. $1800 with

You're already well over your price targe, and you don't have any
electronics. Even if you assume 50% duty cycle for the pump you're
not going to do it for $400.

A typical sump pump operates well below 50% duty cycle. More like 10%
during a very heavy rain storm

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 08:13:05 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I wonder if you can get a UPS from a nearby computer
products store. Open the box, and wire the internal battery
in parallel with a marine trolling battery. For about $100
you'd get a good UPS, and for another 100, a battery. Use
this to power the existing sump pump. I havn't actually
tried this, but the idea is there.

A computer UPS is not made to handle the startup currents
involved with motors. The "U" in UPS will be voided quickly as
the unit will not last long.

http://www.sumppumpsusa.com/duracell...-system-1.html

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 1:15 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/31/2011 9:10 PM Bob F spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Have a client who's looking for some kind of battery-backed sump
pump solution.

Do they have city water? Look at water powered pumps.

You can't be serious.

He is serious, so am I, a water powered pump with standard city
pressure water will outpump by many times any battery powered unit you
get of box store quality. And pump 24hrs a day. You dont have a
limited pumping time which is rated with a new battery, no electric
increase in your bill keeping it maintained, www.basepump.com
www.zoeller.com
have water powered pumps. Zoeller is a big commercial name in pumps.
Compare GPH and Gpd stats, I look on battery stuff from the box stores
as toys, gimmics. And who checks the battery every few years with the
right equipment, you wont know how long it will run in 3-4 years.

They do look quite interesting albeit a bit pricey and I have to wonder if
there aren't some jurisdictions that don't allow them. A cursory Google
search didn't turn up any bans on them, but it sounds like the kind of thing
at least some local government somewhere might take offense to.

Basepump Model RB750 $299.00
Basepump Model HB1000 $359.00
Basepump Model CB1500 $459.00

I wouldn't say my "big box" battery pump is a gimmick. It does the job, the
costs to maintain a charge are pretty low and I have enough spare 12V
battery capacity that I could probably handle anything short of the storm
surge from a hurricane. I still find it troubling to add from 7 to 15 GPM
of city water to the discharge because I'll probably have to pump it back
out when it percolates through the ground. Still, if it's only an emergency
backup to be used if the power fails, that's probably a better deal than a
swamped basement.

I haven't read through the site thoroughly enough to know, but am guess from
the size of the units that they operate via the Venturi principle. Do you
know if that's true?

--
Bobby G.

On Apr 1, 4:26*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/1/2011 10:53 AM Ranger Gord spake thus:

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...mp-628088-.htm
Ranger Gord wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Any help here much appreciated.

The answer is the NexPump Intelligent Sump System. It uses high efficiency
pumps that pump twice as much as other.

www.nexpump.com

Y'know, I do appreciate helpful, thoughtful answers to questions I pose
here. And I do try to keep an open mind when people suggest solutions.

But this particular piece of advice reeeeeally strains my tolerance.
There are *so many* off-putting things about that web site. Let me list
some of them:

* They post a *video* as their main source of information, at the top of
the page. Bad idea. I don't go to commercial web sites wanting to watch
videos. For one thing, I (like a lot of other people) don't have a
high-speed internet connection.

* Right off the bat they mention "artificial intelligence": "The
NexPump Ai is the ONLY sump pump built with Artificial intelligence!***".

I don't want a sump pump with artificial intelligence (which all too
often turns out to be artificial ignorance). I want a goddamn sump pump
that will work when the power goes out, is all.

* Where are their products? No links to products, no products shown on
front page. Oh, they want me to go to their "Support/Downloads" page and
download a ****ing PDF? (6 megabytes, no less) Why not just some simple
HTML links to the goddamn products, like everyone else manages to do it
for chrissakes?

So no, not overly impressed with your suggestion. Not to mention that it
comes via those bottom-feeding, Usenet-scraping scoundrels at the
Homeowner's Hub, may they eat **** and die (I can't wait to see this
message posted on their site!).

And pray tell, what do you mean by "pump twice as much as other
[pumps]"? Twice the pressure? head height? running time? *something else?



I'd say much of this depends on the factors we don't know. Like
during the
anticipated 4 - 6 hour power outage, how much water does the pump
have to move? Big difference between one that comes on 2 times an
hour and pumps 15 gallons, from one that runs almost constantly and
pumps 1500 gallons. Is that 6 hours the worst case perios, or would
the safety of a system going far longer be of value? Is a person
typically availabe to start a generator? What are the consequences
of
failure, ie is it a mostly empty basement or a finished one?

In general, I'd go with a pump solution that will use 12V batteries
directly
instead of a UPS. Seems much simpler and probably cheaper and more
efficent than to go the UPS route. Size the batteries on the above
factors.
Also factor in that the batteries have to be changed every X years.

If longer term survival is desirable, then
I'd go with a more modest size battery system, supplemented by a small
generator. You'd save on some of the battery replacement cost which
over time would pay for the generator.

From:
Subject: UPS for sump pump
Date: Saturday, April 02, 2011 8:22 AM

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 08:13:05 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I wonder if you can get a UPS from a nearby computer
products store. Open the box, and wire the internal battery
in parallel with a marine trolling battery. For about $100
you'd get a good UPS, and for another 100, a battery. Use
this to power the existing sump pump. I havn't actually
tried this, but the idea is there.

A computer UPS is not made to handle the startup currents
involved with motors. The "U" in UPS will be voided quickly as
the unit will not last long.

Egads! You're right. Been there, done that, watched all the stinky magic
smoke escape.

It would take either a specially designed or relatively large and expensive
UPS to handle that momentary current surge. The conversion loss alone (from
DC to AC) makes it worthwhile to get a DC powered sump pump instead and even
consider using that as a primary. Battery powered sump pump technology is
pretty well advanced thanks to all the boaters in the US.

Another advantage to using a battery or water power sump pump is that they
would take over in the case of a power failure, pump failure or even sump
overload (with a separately attached effluent pipe). Decided on two pipes
when a neighbor's sump pump failed when critters got into the drain pipe and
plugged it remarkably tight. That was after the big local drought two years
ago and the pump probably didn't run for months. Two completely separate
but complimentary systems seems to be the way to go.

I use my DC sump as a secondary but it always works when I test it yearly,
which will be this week sometime. Battery needs monthly attention - wish I
could find a cheap wall timer that allowed for "turn on charger for 6 hours
every 30 days." So it's an item on a monthly checklist instead. I don't
like leaving large batteries on chargers indoors 24/7 so I don't quite have
it hooked up the way the manufacturer suggests. Hmmmm - maybe a lawn
sprinker timer would work.

Overall, the water-powered sump pumps strike me as a great alternative in
terms of simplicity and immunity to power failures but their downside is
adding water to the effluent and high initial cost. Unlike other sump
solutions, plumbing is required to attach it to the cold water pipes as
close to where they enter the house as possible. I would't even think of
using a model without a vacuum breaker. I also wonder what happens if for
some reason someone leaves the water running. Also not sure if they are
code in my area - of course this question came up at 7PM on Friday so I'll
have to wait until Monday to call and find out. Maybe I'll just call some
local plumbers. They'll know.

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:

Systems that run 120VAC pumps really don't lend themselves to battery
operation without a lot of conversion losses from 12VDC batteries to
120VAC current. That's why I got a 12VDC powered emergency sump.
I'll be helping to install one for my neighbor, hopefully in time for
the spring rains, and I'll try to document the procedure with words
and pictures. Her AC sump failed and swamped her basement during the
most recent bi-annual 100 year flood. (-:

A backup AC unit would have been the cheapest solution to that problem. In
places with serious problems, that would probably be a very good investment.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

AC sump failed and swamped her basement during the most recent
bi-annual 100 year flood.

Of all the strange ambiguity built into our language, the one I find the
most proposterous is the "bi- weekly, monthly, annually" one. Each of
those can mean twice per period, or once every two periods.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 4/3/2011 3:01 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

On 4/3/2011 10:11 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

AC sump failed and swamped her basement during the most recent
bi-annual 100 year flood.

Of all the strange ambiguity built into our language, the one I find
the
most proposterous is the "bi- weekly, monthly, annually" one. Each of
those can mean twice per period, or once every two periods.

I don't think so; bi-XXXX means once every two XXXX, while semi-XXXX
means twice every XXXX.

At least I thinks so ...

Yep:

http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/def...onthlyannually

Whoops, that link contradicts me and agrees with you. Try this one
instead:

Good work! Undermine your own position! (-:

http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com...es/bisemi.html

Hey, I skate on this one because it wasn't clear from the context whether I
mean every two years (which I did) or twice yearly (which I would NOT want
to see 100 year floods become).

Bisemi? Is that a bisexual only occasionally interested in sex or a
bisexual who only does it in tractor-trailers?

Woohoo!

--
Bobby G.

In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/3/2011 3:01 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

On 4/3/2011 10:11 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

AC sump failed and swamped her basement during the most recent
bi-annual 100 year flood.

Of all the strange ambiguity built into our language, the one I find the
most proposterous is the "bi- weekly, monthly, annually" one. Each of
those can mean twice per period, or once every two periods.

I don't think so; bi-XXXX means once every two XXXX, while semi-XXXX
means twice every XXXX.

At least I thinks so ...

Yep:
http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/def...monthlyannuall
y

Whoops, that link contradicts me and agrees with you. Try this one instead:

http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com...es/bisemi.html

I didn't follow your links, but thanks for the effort.

"Semi-" isn't ambiguous, and that isn't what I said. I said "bi-" was
ambiguous.

Biweekly means twice per week, or once every two weeks.
Bimonthly means twice per month, or once every two months.
Biannually means twice per year, or once every two years.

IOW, the words are completely meaningless, because they mean two
completely different things, and one can never tell which meaning is
intended based on context.

On 4/3/2011 10:11 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

AC sump failed and swamped her basement during the most recent
bi-annual 100 year flood.

Of all the strange ambiguity built into our language, the one I find the
most proposterous is the "bi- weekly, monthly, annually" one. Each of
those can mean twice per period, or once every two periods.

I don't think so; bi-XXXX means once every two XXXX, while semi-XXXX
means twice every XXXX.

At least I thinks so ...

Yep:
http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/def...onthlyannually


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

On 4/3/2011 3:01 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

On 4/3/2011 10:11 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

AC sump failed and swamped her basement during the most recent
bi-annual 100 year flood.

Of all the strange ambiguity built into our language, the one I find the
most proposterous is the "bi- weekly, monthly, annually" one. Each of
those can mean twice per period, or once every two periods.

I don't think so; bi-XXXX means once every two XXXX, while semi-XXXX
means twice every XXXX.

At least I thinks so ...

Yep:
http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/def...onthlyannually

Whoops, that link contradicts me and agrees with you. Try this one instead:

http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com...es/bisemi.html


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

Thank you for saving me a smoky UPS. You are very kind.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Robert Green" wrote in message
...

A computer UPS is not made to handle the startup currents
involved with motors. The "U" in UPS will be voided quickly
as
the unit will not last long.

Egads! You're right. Been there, done that, watched all
the stinky magic
smoke escape.

It would take either a specially designed or relatively
large and expensive
UPS to handle that momentary current surge. The conversion
loss alone (from
DC to AC) makes it worthwhile to get a DC powered sump pump
instead and even
consider using that as a primary. Battery powered sump pump
technology is
pretty well advanced thanks to all the boaters in the US.

Another advantage to using a battery or water power sump
pump is that they
would take over in the case of a power failure, pump failure
or even sump
overload (with a separately attached effluent pipe).
Decided on two pipes
when a neighbor's sump pump failed when critters got into
the drain pipe and
plugged it remarkably tight. That was after the big local
drought two years
ago and the pump probably didn't run for months. Two
completely separate
but complimentary systems seems to be the way to go.

I use my DC sump as a secondary but it always works when I
test it yearly,
which will be this week sometime. Battery needs monthly
attention - wish I
could find a cheap wall timer that allowed for "turn on
charger for 6 hours
every 30 days." So it's an item on a monthly checklist
instead. I don't
like leaving large batteries on chargers indoors 24/7 so I
don't quite have
it hooked up the way the manufacturer suggests. Hmmmm -
maybe a lawn
sprinker timer would work.

Overall, the water-powered sump pumps strike me as a great
alternative in
terms of simplicity and immunity to power failures but their
downside is
adding water to the effluent and high initial cost. Unlike
other sump
solutions, plumbing is required to attach it to the cold
water pipes as
close to where they enter the house as possible. I would't
even think of
using a model without a vacuum breaker. I also wonder what
happens if for
some reason someone leaves the water running. Also not sure
if they are
code in my area - of course this question came up at 7PM on
Friday so I'll
have to wait until Monday to call and find out. Maybe I'll
just call some
local plumbers. They'll know.

--
Bobby G.

On Mon, 4 Apr 2011 14:57:34 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Only when used by ignorant people who don't know of the word
"semiannually, semiweekly, etc.

"Biannually" is a synonym for "semiannually". "Biennially" has only one
meaning (every two years), however.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/biannually1

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can
count, and those who can't.

There are 10 kinds. Those who know the binary number system and those who
don't.

replying to David Nebenzahl, matthiasyuan wrote:
For motor drive that you need a low frequency UPS not electronical transformer
as the critical work situation and motor's feature, I was an Engineer work for
E-TON(the biggest company of UPS) years, I can make stable and low price UPS,

--
posted from
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...mp-628088-.htm

On Thursday, April 21, 2016 at 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, matthiasyuan wrote:
replying to David Nebenzahl, matthiasyuan wrote:
For motor drive that you need a low frequency UPS not electronical transformer
as the critical work situation and motor's feature, I was an Engineer work for
E-TON(the biggest company of UPS) years, I can make stable and low price UPS,
--

You're too late, his house burned down 4 years ago with him inside. It was a terrible tragedy. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Sad Monster