Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.


thanks
richard

On Mar 17, 8:42 pm, wrote:
Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.

thanks
richard

Andy comments:
If you do this, and use #14, you should change the breaker to
a 15 amp breaker.

While it is against code to mix wire sizes, it will at least be a
safe
fix if the breaker is selected to protect the smallest wire....

I believe the reason that mixing wire sizes is a no-no is that , in
the
future, someone may want to add a circuit and will see the larger wire
is #12, and ASSUME it is a 20 amp circuit, and continue on with that
assumption.... I can see no other reason for this rule, but keeping a
"standard method" is always a good idea. However, purely from a
safety standpoint, the breaker size should govern.....

Andy

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:42:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.


thanks
richard

NO, you can not pigtail with a smaller gauge wire size according to
the code (you can go larger). A 20A circuit needs ALL 12 guage in the
whole circuit. You could however replace the 20A breaker with a 15A
and then you could use #14 wire anywhere on that circuit.

The Nec would only allow that if he has another 20 amp circuit that could
be connected to the bathroom outlet. It's likely that the box for the
light -fan switches is undersized for the size and quantity of conductors
in it.

On Mar 18, 7:26*am, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...



On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:42:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan *are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.

thanks
richard

NO, you can not pigtail with a smaller gauge wire size according to
the code (you can go larger). *A 20A circuit needs ALL 12 guage in the
whole circuit. *You could however replace the 20A breaker with a 15A
and then you could use #14 wire anywhere on that circuit.

The Nec would only allow that if he has another 20 amp circuit that could
be connected to the bathroom outlet. It's likely that the box for the
light -fan switches is undersized for the size and quantity of conductors
in it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think there is an exception for baths where 14 is allowed downstream
from the gfci outlet even though it is supplied by 12. But I'm not
sure. I'm also not sure how the lights are supposed to be handled if
they are on the same circuit.

It also occurs to me to wonder if the 20amp requirement only applies
to full baths? What about 3/4 and 1/2 baths? Can they use 14 on a 15
amp circuit?

We've got a few members that seem to be very well versed in the code,
perhaps we'll hear from them.

In article , "RBM"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:42:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.


thanks
richard

NO, you can not pigtail with a smaller gauge wire size according to
the code (you can go larger). A 20A circuit needs ALL 12 guage in the
whole circuit. You could however replace the 20A breaker with a 15A
and then you could use #14 wire anywhere on that circuit.

The Nec would only allow that if he has another 20 amp circuit that could
be connected to the bathroom outlet. It's likely that the box for the
light -fan switches is undersized for the size and quantity of conductors
in it.

Maybe it's just my newsreader, RBM, but your posts consistently appear
as part of the quote from the poster to whom you're responding.

wrote:
Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.


thanks
richard


No. If the wires are too stiff to fold back into the box, use
stranded wire for the pigtails. (the box is probably undersized.)

-Bob

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article , "RBM"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:42:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.


thanks
richard

NO, you can not pigtail with a smaller gauge wire size according to
the code (you can go larger). A 20A circuit needs ALL 12 guage in the
whole circuit. You could however replace the 20A breaker with a 15A
and then you could use #14 wire anywhere on that circuit.

The Nec would only allow that if he has another 20 amp circuit that
could
be connected to the bathroom outlet. It's likely that the box for the
light -fan switches is undersized for the size and quantity of
conductors
in it.

Maybe it's just my newsreader, RBM, but your posts consistently appear
as part of the quote from the poster to whom you're responding.

It's probably something I'm doing wrong. I just go to the bottom of the post
and make my reply. It could also be the crappy news reader from Optimum
online, that I use.

In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"Smitty Two" wrote in message


Maybe it's just my newsreader, RBM, but your posts consistently appear
as part of the quote from the poster to whom you're responding.

It's probably something I'm doing wrong. I just go to the bottom of the post
and make my reply. It could also be the crappy news reader from Optimum
online, that I use.

Well, you just did something different, because that post showed
correctly.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"Smitty Two" wrote in message


Maybe it's just my newsreader, RBM, but your posts consistently
appear as part of the quote from the poster to whom you're
responding.

It's probably something I'm doing wrong. I just go to the bottom of
the post and make my reply. It could also be the crappy news reader
from Optimum online, that I use.

Well, you just did something different, because that post showed
correctly.

Ditto on both counts from my end. Most recent post was normal, previous one
looked like a quote.

Jon

On Mar 18, 11:29*am, zxcvbob wrote:
wrote:
Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan *are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.

thanks
richard

No. *If the wires are too stiff to fold back into the box, use
stranded wire for the pigtails. *(the box is probably undersized.)

-Bob

Thank you all for the suggestions and input. I am trying NOT to
downsize on the breaker size. I was using scrap solid #12 to pigtail.
Will definitely give #12 stranded a shot.

On Mar 18, 4:07*pm, wrote:
On Mar 18, 11:29*am, zxcvbob wrote:



wrote:
Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan *are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.

thanks
richard

No. *If the wires are too stiff to fold back into the box, use
stranded wire for the pigtails. *(the box is probably undersized.)

-Bob

Thank you all for the suggestions and input. I am trying NOT to
downsize on the breaker size. I was using scrap solid #12 to pigtail.
Will definitely give #12 stranded a shot.

==
Stranded is not the best either...use solid #12 if at all possible.
Some inspectors really frown on stranded in any box. I was told this
by one electrician but he himself bent the rules when he didn't have
enough solid with him.
==

On 3/18/2011 7:26 AM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:42:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12 wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.


thanks
richard

NO, you can not pigtail with a smaller gauge wire size according to
the code (you can go larger). A 20A circuit needs ALL 12 guage in the
whole circuit. You could however replace the 20A breaker with a 15A
and then you could use #14 wire anywhere on that circuit.

The Nec would only allow that if he has another 20 amp circuit that could
be connected to the bathroom outlet. It's likely that the box for the
light -fan switches is undersized for the size and quantity of conductors
in it.



When I split the 12-gauge 20-amp feed for my bathroom to put the light
and fan on separate switches, I had to put a box extender on the J box
up in the attic, to get enough room. And yes, I used 12 for the new
runs. Existing hillbilly wiring was wires up in the air sticking up from
an uncovered box, with barely-attached wirenuts. First time I poked at
it, several wirenuts fled into the darkness, never to be seen again.
What I put back may not meet modern code for new construction (like
feeding the counter GFCI from an unswitched outlet in bedroom next
door), but it is a hell of a lot safer than what I found. (In this
township, inspection is theoretical, as evidenced by the stupid stuff
previous owner did, that I keep finding. Floating butt splices in walls,
no romex clamps on fixtures, backwards-wired outlets, basement ceiling
lights hooked up by shoving ends of romex into outlets above drop
ceilings, etc, etc.)

--
aem sends...

Roy wrote:
On Mar 18, 4:07 pm, wrote:
On Mar 18, 11:29 am, zxcvbob wrote:

No. If the wires are too stiff to fold back into the box, use
stranded wire for the pigtails. (the box is probably undersized.)
-Bob
Thank you all for the suggestions and input. I am trying NOT to
downsize on the breaker size. I was using scrap solid #12 to pigtail.
Will definitely give #12 stranded a shot.

==
Stranded is not the best either...use solid #12 if at all possible.
Some inspectors really frown on stranded in any box. I was told this
by one electrician but he himself bent the rules when he didn't have
enough solid with him.
==

There should be no problem using stranded wire. It is often used when
wires are fished into conduits.

It can be harder to use with a wirenut. I usually leave the stranded a
little longer, and pull on the wires to make sure there are good
connections.

Also harder to keep the wire under screws on devices. I usually split
the stranded wire into 2 bunches (end of the wire looks like a Y) and
tightly twist the bunches together.

--
bud--

Jon Danniken wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
Maybe it's just my newsreader, RBM, but your posts consistently
appear as part of the quote from the poster to whom you're
responding.
It's probably something I'm doing wrong. I just go to the bottom of
the post and make my reply. It could also be the crappy news reader
from Optimum online, that I use.
Well, you just did something different, because that post showed
correctly.

Ditto on both counts from my end. Most recent post was normal, previous one
looked like a quote.

Jon


*Ditto x3. If I remember right, John G. sometimes has the same problem.
He starts his responses with a asterisk which makes it clear what he adds.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
...
Jon Danniken wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
Maybe it's just my newsreader, RBM, but your posts consistently
appear as part of the quote from the poster to whom you're
responding.
It's probably something I'm doing wrong. I just go to the bottom of
the post and make my reply. It could also be the crappy news reader
from Optimum online, that I use.
Well, you just did something different, because that post showed
correctly.

Ditto on both counts from my end. Most recent post was normal, previous
one looked like a quote.

Jon

*Ditto x3. If I remember right, John G. sometimes has the same problem. He
starts his responses with a asterisk which makes it clear what he adds.

--
bud--


That could be the key. John and I use the same ISP. I will try to remember
to start my replies with an asterisk as well.

wrote:

[snip]


Maybe it's just my newsreader, RBM, but your posts consistently appear
as part of the quote from the poster to whom you're responding.

It's probably something I'm doing wrong. I just go to the bottom of the
post and make my reply. It could also be the crappy news reader from
Optimum online, that I use.


Try hitting one carrier return to space the reply down one line to get
away from the quote.

I always try to add a blank line between my stuff and quotes. It can make it
a lot easier to figure out what you're reading.

Many newsreaders use seperate colors, without blank lines they get confused.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"The following talk show contains no dysfunctional families, no
humiliating stereotypes, no lewd behavior, and absolutely no
confrontational violence... we apologize for any inconvenience."

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:12:54 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article , "RBM"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:42:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Have a bathroom fed by a 20-amp circuit. I replaced the switches from
plain toggle to Decora style. The problem is the power feed wire and
wires to the lights/fan are #12s.

I found it difficult to properly pigtail and pushing all the #12
wires
back into the box due to their stiffness and the increased switch
size.

Is it acceptable to run/replace the one feeding the switches and
wires
to the lights/fan with #14s. The power feed is up in the attic space
in a J-box that contains another #12 to the vanity outlet.


thanks
richard

NO, you can not pigtail with a smaller gauge wire size according to
the code (you can go larger). A 20A circuit needs ALL 12 guage in
the
whole circuit. You could however replace the 20A breaker with a 15A
and then you could use #14 wire anywhere on that circuit.

The Nec would only allow that if he has another 20 amp circuit that
could
be connected to the bathroom outlet. It's likely that the box for the
light -fan switches is undersized for the size and quantity of
conductors
in it.

Maybe it's just my newsreader, RBM, but your posts consistently appear
as part of the quote from the poster to whom you're responding.

It's probably something I'm doing wrong. I just go to the bottom of the
post
and make my reply. It could also be the crappy news reader from Optimum
online, that I use.


Try hitting one carrier return to space the reply down one line to get
away from the quote.

** I generally go down two spaces before my reply. I'll try to use double
asterisks before the reply