On 2/10/2011 2:37 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 2/9/2011 4:58 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've also asked the same question. He says the wire shorts,
but says the case doesn't wear through the insullation.


The average person who knows nothing about electric seldom knows the
difference between a short and an open. You know the type, they ask were
along the wall is a "plug in" for their lamp.

I always tell folks it has a shortage, a shortage of electrons. :-)

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/10/2011 12:33 PM, bud-- wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I can't imagine the cost of wiring a theme restaurant or bar with knob
and tube wiring. It would be a very interesting undertaking(no pun). :-)

TDD

Not obvious where knob & tube came from in this thread.

Knob & tube is, specifically, concealed wiring. Wouldn't be any point in
a theme restaurant if you can't see it. Could always install fake
wiring. There is a restaurant here with a fake elevated train complete
with sparks.

If it is in the open it is "open wiring on insulators". Use in the
current code is limited to "industrial and agricultural establishments".
Maybe if they serve agricultural products....


You are obviously not that familiar with knob and tube wiring. The
earliest knob and tube wiring had parts that were exposed in areas
like wall switches. It would be exposed in basements, attics and
garages or anywhere the walls were not covered. I doubt most wiring
was concealed during the rural electrification project in the 1930's. :-)

TDD


No plaster walls and ceilings in living areas in the 1930's? In two
houses I lived in that had K&T most of the wiring was concealed or in an
inaccessible attic One house did not have wiring when built.

But you were talking about new wiring to be done in a theme restaurant.
The current NEC articles a
"394 Concealed knob-and-tube"
"398 Open wiring on insulators"
Same definitions in my oldest code book which is 1968. Open wiring on
insulators can be similar to K&T.

I don't know, and you don't either, whether the exposed wiring you talk
about was "open wiring on insulators" when installed.

--
bud--

On 2/11/2011 1:05 PM, bud-- wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/10/2011 12:33 PM, bud-- wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I can't imagine the cost of wiring a theme restaurant or bar with knob
and tube wiring. It would be a very interesting undertaking(no pun).
:-)

TDD

Not obvious where knob & tube came from in this thread.

Knob & tube is, specifically, concealed wiring. Wouldn't be any point in
a theme restaurant if you can't see it. Could always install fake
wiring. There is a restaurant here with a fake elevated train complete
with sparks.

If it is in the open it is "open wiring on insulators". Use in the
current code is limited to "industrial and agricultural establishments".
Maybe if they serve agricultural products....


You are obviously not that familiar with knob and tube wiring. The
earliest knob and tube wiring had parts that were exposed in areas
like wall switches. It would be exposed in basements, attics and
garages or anywhere the walls were not covered. I doubt most wiring
was concealed during the rural electrification project in the 1930's. :-)

TDD


No plaster walls and ceilings in living areas in the 1930's? In two
houses I lived in that had K&T most of the wiring was concealed or in an
inaccessible attic One house did not have wiring when built.

But you were talking about new wiring to be done in a theme restaurant.
The current NEC articles a
"394 Concealed knob-and-tube"
"398 Open wiring on insulators"
Same definitions in my oldest code book which is 1968. Open wiring on
insulators can be similar to K&T.

I don't know, and you don't either, whether the exposed wiring you talk
about was "open wiring on insulators" when installed.


Perhaps I'm thinking of the flat rectangular porcelain insulators that
were often run on the surface of walls. Of course, other wiring was
often concealed in decorative wood strips which had grooves in the back
for the wire. I have seen knob supported wire run on the walls of
workshops, garages and barns. Did all the old-time electricians follow
the code back in the day? :-)

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Did all the old-time electricians follow
the code back in the day? :-)

TDD

Interesting question.

My impression is that electricians were skilled tradesmen that followed
whatever the applicable code was back in the early days. My impression
is not based on much except seeing the installed results around here.
Hard to imagine the labor involved in installing K&T.

Although the NEC goes back to the 1890's, I remember reading somewhere
that there was a lot local variation and locally written codes long ago.
A local code is a lot easier to do if the code is 50 pages instead of
the roughly 800 large NEC pages now. There was supposed to have been a
major push to get everyone standardized on the NEC. Might have been by
the VA or FHA in the post WW2 housing boom.

The "International Building Code", about 10 years ago, intended to come
out with their own electrical code. Fortunately they abandoned it.

--
bud--

On 2/12/2011 11:05 AM, bud-- wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

Did all the old-time electricians follow the code back in the day? :-)

TDD

Interesting question.

My impression is that electricians were skilled tradesmen that followed
whatever the applicable code was back in the early days. My impression
is not based on much except seeing the installed results around here.
Hard to imagine the labor involved in installing K&T.

Although the NEC goes back to the 1890's, I remember reading somewhere
that there was a lot local variation and locally written codes long ago.
A local code is a lot easier to do if the code is 50 pages instead of
the roughly 800 large NEC pages now. There was supposed to have been a
major push to get everyone standardized on the NEC. Might have been by
the VA or FHA in the post WW2 housing boom.

The "International Building Code", about 10 years ago, intended to come
out with their own electrical code. Fortunately they abandoned it.


Here in Birmingham, the inspectors use a modified code that has some
differences from The NEC. I never argue with the inspector and say
yes sir, do what they want and never have a problem. What I've seen
of old K&T are soldered splices wrapped in friction tape. The
electricians back then had a pump up blow torch heating a big hunk
of a soldering iron to solder the connections. About 40 years ago,
I was working for an electrical supply house in central Alabamastan
and we supplied material for saw mills out in the sticks. The crazy
old electricians were running 440/480 volt 3 phase circuits by
rolling out #4 and #6 bare copper wire on the floor of the sawmill
and covering it with a layer of sawdust. It was the way they had always
done it and they weren't going to change. Heck, it's probably still
being done like that. :-)

TDD

That sounds a bit more than slightly unsafe. But,
who can tell? It helps determine who is wearing
insullated boots.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas"
wrote in message
...

The crazy old electricians were running 440/480
volt 3 phase circuits by rolling out #4 and #6 bare
copper wire on the floor of the sawmill and covering
it with a layer of sawdust. It was the way they had
always done it and they weren't going to change.
Heck, it's probably still being done like that. :-)

TDD

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

That sounds a bit more than slightly unsafe. But,
who can tell? It helps determine who is wearing
insullated boots.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"The Daring Dufas"
wrote in message
...

The crazy old electricians were running 440/480
volt 3 phase circuits by rolling out #4 and #6 bare
copper wire on the floor of the sawmill and covering
it with a layer of sawdust. It was the way they had
always done it and they weren't going to change.
Heck, it's probably still being done like that. :-)

TDD

As long as the electrician puts the wires more than a stride length
apart, I guess it's pretty safe, as long as you follow that old adage
"don't shake hands in a sawmill."

On Feb 12, 12:05*pm, bud-- wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

Did all the old-time electricians follow
the code back in the day? :-)

TDD

Interesting question.

My impression is that electricians were skilled tradesmen that followed
whatever the applicable code was back in the early days. My impression
is not based on much except seeing the installed results around here.
Hard to imagine the labor involved in installing K&T.

Although the NEC goes back to the 1890's, I remember reading somewhere
that there was a lot local variation and locally written codes long ago.
A local code is a lot easier to do if the code is 50 pages instead of
the roughly 800 large NEC pages now. There was supposed to have been a
major push to get everyone standardized on the NEC. Might have been by
the VA or FHA in the post WW2 housing boom.

The "International Building Code", about 10 years ago, intended to come
out with their own electrical code. Fortunately they abandoned it.

--
bud--

My grandfather taught me to do an acceptable electrical solder joint.
He made me do at least a couple of hundred of them before he said I
was proficient at it. Years later he told me I did fine after about
the first 10, all the rest were just to keep me busy. Since then Ive
see a couple of electricians and a couple of electrical engineers
attempt such a splice. Its a dieing skill.

Not sure what was code back in the day of K&T but I saw a house wired
with K&T that was done beautifully. Had to be all ripped out. Neutral
buss was a length of pipe running down the middle of the house. This
was mid 70's, house built around 1890, before electricity was
available. Think electricity was added around 1920.





Jimmie