So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

Limp Arbor wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

'Cuz the neutral bus that was disconnected was/is isolated.

--

Limp Arbor wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

As an earthing electrode ground rods suck. A very good resistance to
earth would be 10 ohms. If you connect a hot wire to the rod you get a
current of 12A.

In this case the rod is 5 ft instead of 8 feet. But much worse - it is
in frozen ground. Frozen ground has a much higher resistance than
non-frozen ground.

I would not expect a ground rod to be very effective for an open neutral
in the best case. This was not the best case.

The reason the earthing system might work at all is the N-G bond
required in US services. The earthing system is not intended to be a
substitute neutral.

If the electrode is a water pipe (which is required to be an earthing
electrode if there is 10 ft of metal in the earth), and you have a metal
municipal water system, you can have the neutral current through the
earthing connection to the water service, through the metal water supply
lines to adjacent houses, to the services for those houses, and back to
the utility through the service neutrals in those houses.

You might want to find out how the system is earthed.

--
bud--

On Feb 3, 10:31*am, dpb wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.

He may not have a seperate ground rod, but I'll bet that his panel
does have
a grounding conductor that connects to earth ground through another
means,
typically an underground cold water pipe. And if it doesn't, that
needs to be
fixed ASAP.




Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

Because:

A - It was likely grounded to begin with

B - The ground isn't designed for or capable of providing the same
high
current capacity back to the transformer that the service neutral
conductor
can handle.

'Cuz the neutral bus that was disconnected was/is isolated.

--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:31 am, dpb wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire
loose from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't,
biggest problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went
dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.

He may not have a seperate ground rod, but I'll bet that his panel
does have
a grounding conductor that connects to earth ground through another
means,
typically an underground cold water pipe. And if it doesn't, that
needs to be
fixed ASAP.

The purpose of attaching a ground wire to a water pipe is not to provide a
ground for the electrical service, it is to provide a ground for the
plumbing system.

HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:31 am, dpb wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire
loose from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't,
biggest problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went
dim.
I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
He may not have a seperate ground rod, but I'll bet that his panel
does have
a grounding conductor that connects to earth ground through another
means,
typically an underground cold water pipe. And if it doesn't, that
needs to be
fixed ASAP.

The purpose of attaching a ground wire to a water pipe is not to provide a
ground for the electrical service, it is to provide a ground for the
plumbing system.


The same nonsense that was in a thread about a month ago.

The NEC has, since the beginning of time, required a metal water service
pipe (10 ft in the ground) to be used as an earthing electrode. It still
has that requirement.

If the water service pipe is plastic (which yours may be) then different
rules and different methods apply and metal interior pipes must be bonded.

Your statement, as a general rule, is simply false. Just like it was a
month ago.

--
bud--

On Feb 3, 10:44*am, bud-- wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

As an earthing electrode ground rods suck. A very good resistance to
earth would be 10 ohms. If you connect a hot wire to the rod you get a
current of 12A.

In this case the rod is 5 ft instead of 8 feet. But much worse - it is
in frozen ground. Frozen ground has a much higher resistance than
non-frozen ground.

I would not expect a ground rod to be very effective for an open neutral
in the best case. This was not the best case.

The reason the earthing system might work at all is the N-G bond
required in US services. The earthing system is not intended to be a
substitute neutral.

If the electrode is a water pipe (which is required to be an earthing
electrode if there is 10 ft of metal in the earth), and you have a metal
municipal water system, you can have the neutral current through the
earthing connection to the water service, through the metal water supply
lines to adjacent houses, to the services for those houses, and back to
the utility through the service neutrals in those houses.

You might want to find out how the system is earthed.

--
bud--

As far as supplying electricity to a house a ground rod has no useful
purpose other than saftey. Having one will not replace a broken
neutral, not having one will not effect how well the electrical
distribution in your house functions.

Jimmie

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?


*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. There should also be a path of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

On Feb 3, 9:59*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

The earth is just for safety. Local code here requires two ground rods
and connection to water main. You need zero volts from you shower head
to
the drain. I got some volts one time long ago, when the water meter
jumper
was broken. The codes were also different then, at the same house.

On Feb 3, 1:30*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. *To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. *When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. *However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. *The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. *There should also be a path of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. *All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. Turned the main back on then each breaker.


BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. *He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?

On Feb 3, 1:49*pm, zek wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:59*am, Limp Arbor wrote:





So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

The earth is just for safety. Local code here requires two ground rods
and connection to water main. You need zero volts from you shower head
to
the drain. I got some volts one time long ago, when the water meter
jumper
was broken. The codes were also different then, at the same house.-

You must have long leads on your meter to check across the shower head
and the drain.

On Feb 3, 1:59*pm, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Feb 3, 1:30*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. *To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. *When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. *However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. *The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. *There should also be a path of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. *All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. *Turned the main back on then each breaker.



BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time..
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. *He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? *Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

The unbalanced portion of the 240V service current wants to go back to
the transformer via the neutral wire. If the service neutral is
unhooked, it
will attempt to go back via the ground connection and the earth. But
exactly what path it takes is not determined. It depends on the
resistance
of the earth between the two point, and it's not going to be a
beeline.
If a swimming pool happens to bein that path, you could have parts of
the pool energized, at least to some extent. Would it be likely to
kill
someone, probably not, but who knows?






BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. *Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?- Hide quoted text -


I hope so. That's the only way to complete the circuit.

On Feb 3, 2:45*pm, wrote:
On Feb 3, 1:59*pm, Limp Arbor wrote:





On Feb 3, 1:30*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. *To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. *When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. *However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. *The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. *There should also be a path of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. *All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. *Turned the main back on then each breaker.

BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. *He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? *Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

The unbalanced portion of the 240V service current wants to go back to
the transformer via the neutral wire. *If the service neutral is
unhooked, it
will attempt to go back via the ground connection and the earth. *But
exactly what path it takes is not determined. *It depends on the
resistance
of the earth between the two point, and it's not going to be a
beeline.
*If a swimming pool happens to bein that path, you could have parts of
*the pool energized, at least to some extent. *Would it be likely to
kill
someone, probably not, but who knows?




So I guess that is why you can't buy a "Worm Getter" anymore...

Limp Arbor wrote:
On Feb 3, 2:45 pm, wrote:
....
The unbalanced portion of the 240V service current wants to go back to
the transformer via the neutral wire. If the service neutral is
unhooked, it
will attempt to go back via the ground connection and the earth. But
exactly what path it takes is not determined. It depends on the
resistance
of the earth between the two point, and it's not going to be a
beeline.
If a swimming pool happens to bein that path, you could have parts of
the pool energized, at least to some extent. Would it be likely to
kill
someone, probably not, but who knows?

So I guess that is why you can't buy a "Worm Getter" anymore...

Some sections of the world where ground has a decent conductivity owing
to mineral concentrations have actually used single-wire distribution in
rural areas for cost-saving purposes where there is no return neutral;
all is ground. (Some areas of Canada did; haven't been up there in 20+
years so not sure if all is yet gone or not...)

--

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in
the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. There should also be a path
of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's
grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral
wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. Turned the main back on then each breaker.


BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to
him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through
them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?



*Lightning goes to earth, neutral current goes back to the transformer. If
everything is grounded and bonded to code and all connections are tight, all
neutral current should travel back to the transformer via the neutral
conductor. You can put an ammeter on the grounding conductor to see if any
current is flowing. Unfortunately the meter won't tell you what direction
it is flowing. If your neighbor lost his or her neutral connection you
could have their neutral current flowing up into your panel and back to the
transformer via your neutral conductor. This can be confirmed by shutting
off your main breaker to see if the current flow stops. If it doesn't, talk
to your neighbors.

I come in contact with a number of power company workers every year. I am
always surprised at the questions some of them ask me about wiring in their
own house. This past summer I had a guy ask me how he could do a service
upgrade at his mother's house. The perception is that since they work for
the power company, they know all about electricity. The fact is that they
are very good at what the company trains them to do, but that does not
include wiring a house or making a service change because the power company
normally doesn't do that type of work.

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 06:59:55 -0800 (PST), Limp Arbor
wrote:

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?
Because the ground connection is a very high impedence connection to
the neutral at the power company.

On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 15:49:29 -0600, dpb wrote:

Limp Arbor wrote:
On Feb 3, 2:45 pm, wrote:
...
The unbalanced portion of the 240V service current wants to go back to
the transformer via the neutral wire. If the service neutral is
unhooked, it
will attempt to go back via the ground connection and the earth. But
exactly what path it takes is not determined. It depends on the
resistance
of the earth between the two point, and it's not going to be a
beeline.
If a swimming pool happens to bein that path, you could have parts of
the pool energized, at least to some extent. Would it be likely to
kill
someone, probably not, but who knows?

So I guess that is why you can't buy a "Worm Getter" anymore...

Some sections of the world where ground has a decent conductivity owing
to mineral concentrations have actually used single-wire distribution in
rural areas for cost-saving purposes where there is no return neutral;
all is ground. (Some areas of Canada did; haven't been up there in 20+
years so not sure if all is yet gone or not...)

DEFINITELY all gone.
Canadian electrical distribution safety requirements today are
(generally) higher than those in the USA.

wrote:

DEFINITELY all gone.
Canadian electrical distribution safety requirements today are
(generally) higher than those in the USA.

It would be difficult for them not to be. The NESC that US distribution
is based on is pretty much all "it should be done this way unless you
don't want to for some reason, in which case do whatever you want".

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 11:03:10 -0800 (PST), Limp Arbor
wrote:

On Feb 3, 1:49*pm, zek wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:59*am, Limp Arbor wrote:





So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

The earth is just for safety. Local code here requires two ground rods
and connection to water main. You need zero volts from you shower head
to
the drain. I got some volts one time long ago, when the water meter
jumper
was broken. The codes were also different then, at the same house.-

You must have long leads on your meter to check across the shower head
and the drain.

I would bet they didn't find this problem with a meter. More likely
who ever found this problem did a little dance.

John Grabowski wrote:

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in
the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. There should also be a path
of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's
grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral
wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. Turned the main back on then each breaker.


BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to
him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through
them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?

*Lightning goes to earth, neutral current goes back to the transformer. If
everything is grounded and bonded to code and all connections are tight, all
neutral current should travel back to the transformer via the neutral
conductor. You can put an ammeter on the grounding conductor to see if any
current is flowing. Unfortunately the meter won't tell you what direction
it is flowing. If your neighbor lost his or her neutral connection you
could have their neutral current flowing up into your panel and back to the
transformer via your neutral conductor. This can be confirmed by shutting
off your main breaker to see if the current flow stops. If it doesn't, talk
to your neighbors.

I come in contact with a number of power company workers every year. I am
always surprised at the questions some of them ask me about wiring in their
own house. This past summer I had a guy ask me how he could do a service
upgrade at his mother's house. The perception is that since they work for
the power company, they know all about electricity. The fact is that they
are very good at what the company trains them to do, but that does not
include wiring a house or making a service change because the power company
normally doesn't do that type of work.

The reference standards used for power distribution (NESC) and for
residential and commercial wiring (NEC) are quite different. Utility
personnel will be familiar with the NESC standards, but usually aren't
familiar with the NEC standards to much extent.

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire
loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. To
get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire.
When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in
the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer
via
the grounding conductor. However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. The transformer must have
an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. There should also be a
path
of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and
distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the
neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's
grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral
wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. All of the return current could have been on
that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. Turned the main back on then each breaker.


BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to
him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that
time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in
the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through
them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main
breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?

*Lightning goes to earth, neutral current goes back to the transformer.
If
everything is grounded and bonded to code and all connections are tight,
all
neutral current should travel back to the transformer via the neutral
conductor. You can put an ammeter on the grounding conductor to see if
any
current is flowing. Unfortunately the meter won't tell you what
direction
it is flowing. If your neighbor lost his or her neutral connection you
could have their neutral current flowing up into your panel and back to
the
transformer via your neutral conductor. This can be confirmed by
shutting
off your main breaker to see if the current flow stops. If it doesn't,
talk
to your neighbors.

I come in contact with a number of power company workers every year. I
am
always surprised at the questions some of them ask me about wiring in
their
own house. This past summer I had a guy ask me how he could do a service
upgrade at his mother's house. The perception is that since they work
for
the power company, they know all about electricity. The fact is that
they
are very good at what the company trains them to do, but that does not
include wiring a house or making a service change because the power
company
normally doesn't do that type of work.

The reference standards used for power distribution (NESC) and for
residential and commercial wiring (NEC) are quite different. Utility
personnel will be familiar with the NESC standards, but usually aren't
familiar with the NEC standards to much extent.


*Thanks for that clarification Pete. I am familiar with the NEC but know
absolutely nothing about the NESC.

On Feb 3, 5:05*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 06:59:55 -0800 (PST), Limp Arbor





wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*Because the ground connection is a very high impedence connection to
the neutral at the power company.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another typical misleading and vague statement from our arm chair
expert from Canada.
The neutral connection is at the transformer, which is usually within
hundreds
of feet. The above would lead you to believe it's back at the
generator.

Anything else I can help you with?

On Feb 3, 3:45*pm, wrote:
On Feb 3, 1:59*pm, Limp Arbor wrote:





On Feb 3, 1:30*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. *To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. *When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. *However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. *The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. *There should also be a path of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. *All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. *Turned the main back on then each breaker.

BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. *He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? *Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

The unbalanced portion of the 240V service current wants to go back to
the transformer via the neutral wire. *If the service neutral is
unhooked, it
will attempt to go back via the ground connection and the earth. *But
exactly what path it takes is not determined. *It depends on the
resistance
of the earth between the two point, and it's not going to be a
beeline.
*If a swimming pool happens to bein that path, you could have parts of
*the pool energized, at least to some extent. *Would it be likely to
kill
someone, probably not, but who knows?



BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. *Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?- Hide quoted text -

I hope so. *That's the only way to complete the circuit.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

With an open neutral you can have your 15 amp electric skillet in
series with your .1 amp clock radio with this string across 240. The
radio is going to lose every time.

Jimmie
Jimmie

wrote:
....

DEFINITELY all gone.
Canadian electrical distribution safety requirements today are
(generally) higher than those in the USA.

Possible altho where I knew of them last were in the extremely rural
areas on (I think) the equivalent of US REC (Rural Electric
Co-operatives) lines. The cost of those for the low load/mile ratio is
quite high so it wouldn't surprise if there were still at least some
extant...

--

On 2/3/2011 3:49 PM, dpb wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
On Feb 3, 2:45 pm, wrote:
...
The unbalanced portion of the 240V service current wants to go back to
the transformer via the neutral wire. If the service neutral is
unhooked, it
will attempt to go back via the ground connection and the earth. But
exactly what path it takes is not determined. It depends on the
resistance
of the earth between the two point, and it's not going to be a
beeline.
If a swimming pool happens to bein that path, you could have parts of
the pool energized, at least to some extent. Would it be likely to
kill
someone, probably not, but who knows?

So I guess that is why you can't buy a "Worm Getter" anymore...

Some sections of the world where ground has a decent conductivity owing
to mineral concentrations have actually used single-wire distribution in
rural areas for cost-saving purposes where there is no return neutral;
all is ground. (Some areas of Canada did; haven't been up there in 20+
years so not sure if all is yet gone or not...)

--

Back in the early 80's North of Birmingham in rural Alabamastan I did
some work at a marina that had TVA supplied power. High voltage came
in on a single overhead wire and a transformer and ground rod was hooked
up to supply the marina with power. The power is still probably like
that after 30 years. :-)

TDD

On Feb 3, 5:04*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in
the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. There should also be a path
of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's
grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral
wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. *Turned the main back on then each breaker.



BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to
him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time..
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through
them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? *Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. *Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?

*Lightning goes to earth, neutral current goes back to the transformer. *If
everything is grounded and bonded to code and all connections are tight, all
neutral current should travel back to the transformer via the neutral
conductor. *You can put an ammeter on the grounding conductor to see if any
current is flowing. *Unfortunately the meter won't tell you what direction
it is flowing. *If your neighbor lost his or her neutral connection you
could have their neutral current flowing up into your panel and back to the
transformer via your neutral conductor. *This can be confirmed by shutting
off your main breaker to see if the current flow stops. *If it doesn't, talk
to your neighbors.

I come in contact with a number of power company workers every year. *I am
always surprised at the questions some of them ask me about wiring in their
own house. *This past summer I had a guy ask me how he could do a service
upgrade at his mother's house. *The perception is that since they work for
the power company, they know all about electricity. *The fact is that they
are very good at what the company trains them to do, but that does not
include wiring a house or making a service change because the power company
normally doesn't do that type of work

When I upgraded my panel and meter socket on a separate permit I was
able to do it myself because I have underground service and PSEG
disconnects you at the transformer for no charge.

When the *three* trucks from the power company showed up for the
disconnect none of the wires were marked for the houses. They just
started disconnecting them to figure out which was mine. The guy
checking for power at my meter socket had a bad meter because they had
to do it several times until they were sure mine was off. I could
hear them talking "that one arced, that's not it". I was surprised
they didn't even clamp on an Amp probe to see which ones weren't
drawing first.

They made me very uncomfortable. I must have checked those wires 20
times before I swapped out the meter socket.

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire.
When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in
the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer
via
the grounding conductor. However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. The transformer must have
an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. There should also be a path
of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and
distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the
neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's
grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral
wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. All of the return current could have been on
that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. Turned the main back on then each breaker.



BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to
him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in
the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through
them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main
breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?

*Lightning goes to earth, neutral current goes back to the transformer. If
everything is grounded and bonded to code and all connections are tight,
all
neutral current should travel back to the transformer via the neutral
conductor. You can put an ammeter on the grounding conductor to see if any
current is flowing. Unfortunately the meter won't tell you what direction
it is flowing. If your neighbor lost his or her neutral connection you
could have their neutral current flowing up into your panel and back to
the
transformer via your neutral conductor. This can be confirmed by shutting
off your main breaker to see if the current flow stops. If it doesn't,
talk
to your neighbors.

I come in contact with a number of power company workers every year. I am
always surprised at the questions some of them ask me about wiring in
their
own house. This past summer I had a guy ask me how he could do a service
upgrade at his mother's house. The perception is that since they work for
the power company, they know all about electricity. The fact is that they
are very good at what the company trains them to do, but that does not
include wiring a house or making a service change because the power
company
normally doesn't do that type of work

When I upgraded my panel and meter socket on a separate permit I was
able to do it myself because I have underground service and PSEG
disconnects you at the transformer for no charge.

When the *three* trucks from the power company showed up for the
disconnect none of the wires were marked for the houses. They just
started disconnecting them to figure out which was mine. The guy
checking for power at my meter socket had a bad meter because they had
to do it several times until they were sure mine was off. I could
hear them talking "that one arced, that's not it". I was surprised
they didn't even clamp on an Amp probe to see which ones weren't
drawing first.

They made me very uncomfortable. I must have checked those wires 20
times before I swapped out the meter socket.


*I can't comment on the quality of the training that they received. I had
to have several underground services disconnected last summer and fall. In
one instance one of the power company guys (PSE&G) came over with two
pigtail sockets with light bulbs that were wired in series with long leads
to check for 240 volts. That's the kind of tester I was raised on. I've
noticed that PSE&G always send an entourage for these disconnects whereas
JCP&L will send one guy in a pickup truck or two guys in a bucket truck.
PSE&G does not charge for the disconnect, but JCP&L has a $280.00 minimum
charge.

On Feb 4, 9:35*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire.
When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in
the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer
via
the grounding conductor. However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. The transformer must have
an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. There should also be a path
of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and
distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the
neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's
grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral
wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. All of the return current could have been on
that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. Turned the main back on then each breaker.

BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to
him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in
the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through
them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main
breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?

*Lightning goes to earth, neutral current goes back to the transformer. If
everything is grounded and bonded to code and all connections are tight,
all
neutral current should travel back to the transformer via the neutral
conductor. You can put an ammeter on the grounding conductor to see if any
current is flowing. Unfortunately the meter won't tell you what direction
it is flowing. If your neighbor lost his or her neutral connection you
could have their neutral current flowing up into your panel and back to
the
transformer via your neutral conductor. This can be confirmed by shutting
off your main breaker to see if the current flow stops. If it doesn't,
talk
to your neighbors.

I come in contact with a number of power company workers every year. I am
always surprised at the questions some of them ask me about wiring in
their
own house. This past summer I had a guy ask me how he could do a service
upgrade at his mother's house. The perception is that since they work for
the power company, they know all about electricity. The fact is that they
are very good at what the company trains them to do, but that does not
include wiring a house or making a service change because the power
company
normally doesn't do that type of work

When I upgraded my panel and meter socket on a separate permit I was
able to do it myself because I have underground service and PSEG
disconnects you at the transformer for no charge.

When the *three* trucks from the power company showed up for the
disconnect none of the wires were marked for the houses. *They just
started disconnecting them to figure out which was mine. *The guy
checking for power at my meter socket had a bad meter because they had
to do it several times until they were sure mine was off. *I could
hear them talking "that one arced, that's not it". *I was surprised
they didn't even clamp on an Amp probe to see which ones weren't
drawing first.

They made me very uncomfortable. *I must have checked those wires 20
times before I swapped out the meter socket.

*I can't comment on the quality of the training that they received. *I had
to have several underground services disconnected last summer and fall. *In
one instance one of the power company guys (PSE&G) came over with two
pigtail sockets with light bulbs that were wired in series with long leads
to check for 240 volts. *That's the kind of tester I was raised on. *I've
noticed that PSE&G always send an entourage for these disconnects whereas
JCP&L will send one guy in a pickup truck or two guys in a bucket truck.
PSE&G does not charge for the disconnect, but JCP&L has a $280.00 minimum
charge.

At least the guy who was working near the transformer had on High
voltage gloves and a helmet, no apron or face shield though.

I also heard that PSEG is the only one that disconnects for no charge
on an underground service. The town also told me that if the wires
from the transformer to the meter socket needed repair or upsizing
that PSEG owned them and would be responsible for them. I don't know
the size but they were about 3/4" thick solid aluminum. I can't
imagine how much 50' of that would cost...

John Grabowski wrote:

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire.
When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in
the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer
via
the grounding conductor. However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. The transformer must have
an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. There should also be a path
of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and
distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the
neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's
grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral
wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. All of the return current could have been on
that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. Turned the main back on then each breaker.



BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to
him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time.
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in
the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through
them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main
breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?

*Lightning goes to earth, neutral current goes back to the transformer. If
everything is grounded and bonded to code and all connections are tight,
all
neutral current should travel back to the transformer via the neutral
conductor. You can put an ammeter on the grounding conductor to see if any
current is flowing. Unfortunately the meter won't tell you what direction
it is flowing. If your neighbor lost his or her neutral connection you
could have their neutral current flowing up into your panel and back to
the
transformer via your neutral conductor. This can be confirmed by shutting
off your main breaker to see if the current flow stops. If it doesn't,
talk
to your neighbors.

I come in contact with a number of power company workers every year. I am
always surprised at the questions some of them ask me about wiring in
their
own house. This past summer I had a guy ask me how he could do a service
upgrade at his mother's house. The perception is that since they work for
the power company, they know all about electricity. The fact is that they
are very good at what the company trains them to do, but that does not
include wiring a house or making a service change because the power
company
normally doesn't do that type of work

When I upgraded my panel and meter socket on a separate permit I was
able to do it myself because I have underground service and PSEG
disconnects you at the transformer for no charge.

When the *three* trucks from the power company showed up for the
disconnect none of the wires were marked for the houses. They just
started disconnecting them to figure out which was mine. The guy
checking for power at my meter socket had a bad meter because they had
to do it several times until they were sure mine was off. I could
hear them talking "that one arced, that's not it". I was surprised
they didn't even clamp on an Amp probe to see which ones weren't
drawing first.

They made me very uncomfortable. I must have checked those wires 20
times before I swapped out the meter socket.

*I can't comment on the quality of the training that they received. I had
to have several underground services disconnected last summer and fall. In
one instance one of the power company guys (PSE&G) came over with two
pigtail sockets with light bulbs that were wired in series with long leads
to check for 240 volts. That's the kind of tester I was raised on. I've
noticed that PSE&G always send an entourage for these disconnects whereas
JCP&L will send one guy in a pickup truck or two guys in a bucket truck.
PSE&G does not charge for the disconnect, but JCP&L has a $280.00 minimum
charge.

Don't expect the linemen to be all that technical, most of what they do
is more mechanical than electrical. The electrical end is more the
function of the engineers back at the office who produce the work orders
detailing what is to be done. The linemen mostly check for correct
voltages.

dpb wrote:
wrote:
...

DEFINITELY all gone.
Canadian electrical distribution safety requirements today are
(generally) higher than those in the USA.

Possible altho where I knew of them last were in the extremely rural
areas on (I think) the equivalent of US REC (Rural Electric
Co-operatives) lines. The cost of those for the low load/mile ratio is
quite high so it wouldn't surprise if there were still at least some
extant...


I suspect single wire earth return was common in the US in the early
days of electrification of farms under the REA. About the time the REA
was created in1935 under 15% of farms had electric utility power. In the
early 1950s almost all did. From comments by a utility engineer in
Canada it sounds like early Canadian rural electrification was earth
return, with a return wire becoming common in the mid 1950s. Likely the
same in the US. As you said, low density makes electrification of farms
expensive.

The resistance of through the earth in flatland is probably quite low.
Making a low resistance connection to the earth is not real easy. But
the connection was low current. If you actually had a 100A 240V load and
the distribution was 7200V the primary current is only about 3.5A. Early
farm loads were nowhere near 100A.

--
bud--

On Feb 3, 6:59*pm, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Feb 3, 1:30*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*As someone else said the ground rod is not a substitute for a neutral.
Neutral current wants to return to the power company transformer. *To get
there it normally travels over the neutral (Grounded conductor) wire. *When
the neutral wire is broken, but is bonded to the grounding conductor in the
main panel, the neutral current will attempt to get to the transformer via
the grounding conductor. *However whether it makes it back to the
transformer or not depends on the conditions. *The transformer must have an
unbroken grounding conductor connected to a ground rod in order for the
neutral current to travel through the earth. *There should also be a path of
low resistance and that would depend on the soil conditions and distance.

I have heard stories from other contractors and inspectors of the neutral
current from one house traveling through the earth to a neighbor's grounding
conductor and going back to the transformer via the neighbor's neutral wire.

I hope that your BIL turned off the main breaker when he attempted to
connect the ground rod. *All of the return current could have been on that
grounding conductor.

Yes, he turned off the main and all of the individual breakers before
trying this. *Turned the main back on then each breaker.



BTW the advice that you gave your BIL could have been fatal not only to him,
but to someone who just happened to be walking on his lawn at that time..
Also, If there was a pool nearby, although not likely this time of year
someone in the pool could have gotten zapped from the stray current in the
earth looking for a path to the transformer. *He could also have damaged
some appliances by having a higher voltage than normal passing through them
The best advice in this case would have been to shut off the main breaker
and get the neutral wire reconnected.

How could someone walking by have been shocked? *Doesn't electricity
always seek ground?

BTW he also got the same advice from another guy who works at the
power company. *Obviously not as a permanent fix but to get his heat
working til he could get the neutral wire reconnected.

So in my house as with most houses even though all of the neutrals and
grounds are tied together in the panel everything is going back to the
transformer?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Electricity does not always seek ground. It only seeks ground because
the transformer it originated from has one side grounded.

When a substantial current goes down a ground rod, a voltage drop
appears on the ground in concentric (equipotential) circles around the
rod.

The effect is very local though metal pipes in the ground nearby can
effect it. So a volt drop appenars on the ground on lines not
tangenital to the circles. So yes you ca get an electric shock just
by being stood there, even more so if you touch the rod.
If you are a cow and have a your feet further apart, you get a geater
voltage anda better chance of dying. . :-)

On Feb 3, 9:49*pm, dpb wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
On Feb 3, 2:45 pm, wrote:
...
The unbalanced portion of the 240V service current wants to go back to
the transformer via the neutral wire. *If the service neutral is
unhooked, it
will attempt to go back via the ground connection and the earth. *But
exactly what path it takes is not determined. *It depends on the
resistance
of the earth between the two point, and it's not going to be a
beeline.
*If a swimming pool happens to bein that path, you could have parts of
*the pool energized, at least to some extent. *Would it be likely to
kill
someone, probably not, but who knows?

So I guess that is why you can't buy a "Worm Getter" anymore...

Some sections of the world where ground has a decent conductivity owing
to mineral concentrations have actually used single-wire distribution in
rural areas for cost-saving purposes where there is no return neutral;
all is ground. *(Some areas of Canada did; haven't been up there in 20+
years so not sure if all is yet gone or not...)

--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Correct. Australia. The ground rod has to be fenced to keep people
away from it. Usually the upper part is insulated.

On Feb 3, 10:05*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 06:59:55 -0800 (PST), Limp Arbor





wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

*Because the ground connection is a very high impedence connection to
the neutral at the power company.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

On 2/3/2011 9:53 AM, HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:31 am, wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire
loose from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't,
biggest problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went
dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.

He may not have a seperate ground rod, but I'll bet that his panel
does have
a grounding conductor that connects to earth ground through another
means,
typically an underground cold water pipe. And if it doesn't, that
needs to be
fixed ASAP.

The purpose of attaching a ground wire to a water pipe is not to provide a
ground for the electrical service, it is to provide a ground for the
plumbing system.



Depends.

In the town i have rentals in, they ONLY require the copper pipe coming
in the house to be the ground. Any additional rods or bonding is
optional. They also REQUIRE ALL replacement water service entrance
pipes to be copper

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/3/2011 1:03 PM, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Feb 3, 1:49 pm, wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:59 am, Limp wrote:





So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

The earth is just for safety. Local code here requires two ground rods
and connection to water main. You need zero volts from you shower head
to
the drain. I got some volts one time long ago, when the water meter
jumper
was broken. The codes were also different then, at the same house.-

You must have long leads on your meter to check across the shower head
and the drain.


or a low assed mounted shower head.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Feb 4, 1:58*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/3/2011 1:03 PM, Limp Arbor wrote:





On Feb 3, 1:49 pm, *wrote:
On Feb 3, 9:59 am, Limp *wrote:

So the ice storm the othe day took down many trees in our area. *My
BIL called me because a branch fell and knocked his neutral wire loose
from the weatherhead. *Some things worked others didn't, biggest
problem was when the fridge kicked on the whole house went dim.

I asked him about a ground rod and he was sure he didn't have one.
Until he could get a guy to climb up there I told him to go get a
ground rod at the Borg and pound it in as far as he could and connect
it to the ground/neutral bar in his panel. *He was able to get the
ground rod about 5' down with a hammer and connected two 12ga copper
wires from the rod to his panel. *After he did this there was no
improvement at all.

An hour later an electrician he knows showed up and reconnected the
neutral to the weaterhead and all was better. *Neither of his hot
leads at the weatherhead were loose or needed to be touched. *So why
wouldn't going directly to ground from the panel have helped his
problem?

The earth is just for safety. Local code here requires two ground rods
and connection to water main. You need zero volts from you shower head
to
the drain. I got some volts one time long ago, when the water meter
jumper
was broken. The codes were also different then, at the same house.-

You must have long leads on your meter to check across the shower head
and the drain.

or a low assed mounted shower head.

Happens more often than you'd think! I am constantly annoyed when I
end up showering in a hotel room or friend's house and have to crick
my neck to get my head under the shower head. I'm only 5'11"
fercryinoutloud.

nate

On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 22:10:26 -0600, dpb wrote:

wrote:
...

DEFINITELY all gone.
Canadian electrical distribution safety requirements today are
(generally) higher than those in the USA.

Possible altho where I knew of them last were in the extremely rural
areas on (I think) the equivalent of US REC (Rural Electric
Co-operatives) lines. The cost of those for the low load/mile ratio is
quite high so it wouldn't surprise if there were still at least some
extant...
I believe they were all replaced about 10 years ago after sme "stray
voltage" scares where cattle were dying.

On 2/4/2011 2:39 PM, N8N wrote:


Happens more often than you'd think! I am constantly annoyed when I
end up showering in a hotel room or friend's house and have to crick
my neck to get my head under the shower head. I'm only 5'11"
fercryinoutloud.

nate

Oh i hear ya! The three i've re-done recently, i've set at 78" from the
tub/shower floor.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/4/2011 6:26 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 22:10:26 -0600, wrote:

wrote:
...

DEFINITELY all gone.
Canadian electrical distribution safety requirements today are
(generally) higher than those in the USA.

Possible altho where I knew of them last were in the extremely rural
areas on (I think) the equivalent of US REC (Rural Electric
Co-operatives) lines. The cost of those for the low load/mile ratio is
quite high so it wouldn't surprise if there were still at least some
extant...
I believe they were all replaced about 10 years ago after sme "stray
voltage" scares where cattle were dying.

I've called the local power company a number of times to report that
metal termites (the bipedal variety) have cut all the copper ground
wires off the power poles for miles in certain neighborhoods around
here even downtown areas. The wire is cut off as high up the pole as
a human can reach. I know those wires and ground rods aren't part of
the power circuit but are more than likely part of a spark gap unit
to send lighting to ground. I suppose the power company will have to
switch to galvanized steel ground wire. Those vermin are responsible
for a lot of the lightning damage around where I had a warehouse years
ago, they would even come over the fence after small amounts of wire.
I wonder, I've seen human sized insects on TV insurance commercials.

TDD

Steve Barker wrote:

The purpose of attaching a ground wire to a water pipe is not to
provide a ground for the electrical service, it is to provide a
ground for the plumbing system.



Depends.

In the town i have rentals in, they ONLY require the copper pipe
coming in the house to be the ground. Any additional rods or bonding
is optional. They also REQUIRE ALL replacement water service entrance
pipes to be copper

The way I heard it, bonding to a water pipe protects you from a floating
neutral as you are skinning muskrats in the sink. As you prepare to process
the muskrat guts in the disposal, while holding a poorly-insulated electric
carving knife, you reach up and touch the metal faucet...

Contrary to popular thinking, muskrat entrails are an excellent conductor,
as proved by real science.