Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

On 2/2/2011 6:34 AM, mm wrote:

Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

Two words- toxic waste. Any commercial use of those chemicals is called
a 'point source', IIRC, and there are all sorts of permitting and
inspection hoops to jump through. Same reason that almost all ma'n'pa
dry cleaners, the few that are left, have outsourced their cleaning to
giant industrial plants. And in a city where the person who owns the
store almost never owns the building, the landlord won't rent to anyone
who uses chemicals, at least not without a lot of extra money changing
hands. The possible downside for the property owner is just way too steep.

--
aem sends....

On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 07:07:20 -0500, aemeijers
wrote:

On 2/2/2011 6:34 AM, mm wrote:

Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

Two words- toxic waste. Any commercial use of those chemicals is called
a 'point source', IIRC, and there are all sorts of permitting and
inspection hoops to jump through. Same reason that almost all ma'n'pa
dry cleaners, the few that are left, have outsourced their cleaning to
giant industrial plants. And in a city where the person who owns the
store almost never owns the building, the landlord won't rent to anyone
who uses chemicals, at least not without a lot of extra money changing
hands. The possible downside for the property owner is just way too steep.

Makes sense. This is pretty much what also happened to a friend of
mine with the metal plating business he owned.

aemeijers wrote the following:
On 2/2/2011 6:34 AM, mm wrote:

Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

Two words- toxic waste. Any commercial use of those chemicals is
called a 'point source', IIRC, and there are all sorts of permitting
and inspection hoops to jump through. Same reason that almost all
ma'n'pa dry cleaners, the few that are left, have outsourced their
cleaning to giant industrial plants. And in a city where the person
who owns the store almost never owns the building, the landlord won't
rent to anyone who uses chemicals, at least not without a lot of extra
money changing hands. The possible downside for the property owner is
just way too steep.


The little local dry cleaning store in a shopping center where I live
does one-day dry cleaning. There are no giant industrial clothes
cleaners nearby.
Where are they sending the clothes that can do one day service and
delivery?

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On 2/2/2011 10:15 AM, willshak wrote:
aemeijers wrote the following:
On 2/2/2011 6:34 AM, mm wrote:

Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

Two words- toxic waste. Any commercial use of those chemicals is
called a 'point source', IIRC, and there are all sorts of permitting
and inspection hoops to jump through. Same reason that almost all
ma'n'pa dry cleaners, the few that are left, have outsourced their
cleaning to giant industrial plants. And in a city where the person
who owns the store almost never owns the building, the landlord won't
rent to anyone who uses chemicals, at least not without a lot of extra
money changing hands. The possible downside for the property owner is
just way too steep.


The little local dry cleaning store in a shopping center where I live
does one-day dry cleaning. There are no giant industrial clothes
cleaners nearby.
Where are they sending the clothes that can do one day service and
delivery?

Heh. When I was a kid, about every third shopping center, had a place
that advertised same-day service. 'One Hour Martinizing' ring a bell?

I did say 'almost'- either your little local store is one of the
exceptions that proves the rule, and does enough business to make it
worth having their own permits and modern machines, or they have a very
good outsourced provider that picks it all up late in the day, hauls it
to the nearest city with a production cleaning plant, where it is
cleaned second/third shift, and delivered back in the morning. If you
take clothes there, look for a cut-off-time sign, or ask them. No reason
for them to keep it a secret- the huge places don't take walk-in
customers, at least around here. Service to the trade only. Same
business model as the outsourced laundries many hotels and restaurants
and such use.

Personally, I decided years ago that 'dry clean only' clothes are for
rich people, and never buy anything like that.

--
aem sends...

On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 10:42:14 -0500, aemeijers
wrote:

On 2/2/2011 10:15 AM, willshak wrote:
aemeijers wrote the following:
On 2/2/2011 6:34 AM, mm wrote:

Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

Two words- toxic waste. Any commercial use of those chemicals is
called a 'point source', IIRC, and there are all sorts of permitting
and inspection hoops to jump through. Same reason that almost all
ma'n'pa dry cleaners, the few that are left, have outsourced their
cleaning to giant industrial plants. And in a city where the person
who owns the store almost never owns the building, the landlord won't
rent to anyone who uses chemicals, at least not without a lot of extra
money changing hands. The possible downside for the property owner is
just way too steep.


The little local dry cleaning store in a shopping center where I live
does one-day dry cleaning. There are no giant industrial clothes
cleaners nearby.
Where are they sending the clothes that can do one day service and
delivery?

Heh. When I was a kid, about every third shopping center, had a place
that advertised same-day service. 'One Hour Martinizing' ring a bell?

Once when my brother was visiting here, he went out looking for a
one-hour dry cleaner. Darn I can't remember if none advertised that
or they said it, but when he asked for it, they didn't have it.

I did say 'almost'- either your little local store is one of the
exceptions that proves the rule, and does enough business to make it
worth having their own permits and modern machines, or they have a very
good outsourced provider that picks it all up late in the day, hauls it
to the nearest city with a production cleaning plant, where it is
cleaned second/third shift, and delivered back in the morning. If you
take clothes there, look for a cut-off-time sign, or ask them. No reason
for them to keep it a secret- the huge places don't take walk-in
customers, at least around here. Service to the trade only. Same
business model as the outsourced laundries many hotels and restaurants
and such use.

Personally, I decided years ago that 'dry clean only' clothes are for
rich people, and never buy anything like that.

I found out that if you get a polyester/wool blend the moths won't eat
your suit like they do an all-wool suit. Silly goofs, they don't even
eat the wool parts!

(or maybe other blends)

On 2/2/2011 11:25 AM, mm wrote:
(snip)

Personally, I decided years ago that 'dry clean only' clothes are for
rich people, and never buy anything like that.

I found out that if you get a polyester/wool blend the moths won't eat
your suit like they do an all-wool suit. Silly goofs, they don't even
eat the wool parts!

(or maybe other blends)

At this point, I don't buy anything that can't go in the washer. They
don't pay me enough to wear a tie and jacket.

--
aem sends...

On Feb 2, 8:48*am, aemeijers wrote:
On 2/2/2011 11:25 AM, mm wrote:
(snip)



Personally, I decided years ago that 'dry clean only' clothes are for
rich people, and never buy anything like that.

I found out that if you get a polyester/wool blend the moths won't eat
your suit like they do an all-wool suit. *Silly goofs, they don't even
eat the wool parts!

(or maybe other blends)

At this point, I don't buy anything that can't go in the washer. They
don't pay me enough to wear a tie and jacket.

--
aem sends...

I decided, with fear & trembling, to wash my expensive wool pants by
hand in a Woolite-type clone. Thorough rinsing. Hung carefully on
clothesline. (I have never used a dryer; perfectly satisfied with the
big dryer in the sky; of course my climate allows this.) Came out
just beautiful. I have very few garments that absolutely require "dry
cleaning": KISS.

On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:21:44 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
wrote:

On Feb 2, 8:48*am, aemeijers wrote:
On 2/2/2011 11:25 AM, mm wrote:
(snip)



Personally, I decided years ago that 'dry clean only' clothes are for
rich people, and never buy anything like that.

I found out that if you get a polyester/wool blend the moths won't eat
your suit like they do an all-wool suit. *Silly goofs, they don't even
eat the wool parts!

(or maybe other blends)

At this point, I don't buy anything that can't go in the washer. They
don't pay me enough to wear a tie and jacket.

Not even a funeral?
--
aem sends...

I decided, with fear & trembling, to wash my expensive wool pants by
hand in a Woolite-type clone. Thorough rinsing. Hung carefully on
clothesline. (I have never used a dryer; perfectly satisfied with the
big dryer in the sky; of course my climate allows this.) Came out
just beautiful. I have very few garments that absolutely require "dry
cleaning": KISS.

I had a second hand but great condition except for one cut sleeping
bag that needed mending and my mother did it and then she took it to a
dry cleaner to be cleaned. The cleaner explained that it could be a
fatal mistake, that even after it aired a long time there would still
be plenty of fumes to kill me. And he wouldn't do it (although my
mother didn't want him to after that.) Maybe that was another reason
diy dry cleaning disappeared.

On Feb 2, 6:34*am, mm wrote:
Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

What I miss are the small bottles of dry cleaning fluid, carbon
tetrachloride I believe, with the dauber top to apply the fluid to
your clothes to clean a small spot on a suit or other wool garment.The
spray stuff they sell now, the kind that dries into a white powder,
never seems to work very well.

On Feb 2, 3:27*pm, Pavel314 wrote:
On Feb 2, 6:34*am, mm wrote:

Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

What I miss are the small bottles of dry cleaning fluid, carbon
tetrachloride I believe, with the dauber top to apply the fluid to
your clothes to clean a small spot on a suit or other wool garment.The
spray stuff they sell now, the kind that dries into a white powder,
never seems to work very well.

Naptha works wonders

On 2/2/2011 4:19 PM, mm wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:21:44 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
wrote:

On Feb 2, 8:48 am, wrote:
On 2/2/2011 11:25 AM, mm wrote:
(snip)



Personally, I decided years ago that 'dry clean only' clothes are for
rich people, and never buy anything like that.

I found out that if you get a polyester/wool blend the moths won't eat
your suit like they do an all-wool suit. Silly goofs, they don't even
eat the wool parts!

(or maybe other blends)

At this point, I don't buy anything that can't go in the washer. They
don't pay me enough to wear a tie and jacket.

Not even a funeral?

Most of the old people I know have died already. I do still have a
monkey suit from years ago that lives in a plastic bag- hopefully the
plastic fumes and the flowers will hide any odors. I think I last wore
it around 5 years ago?

--
aem sends...

Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.


*When I worked for my dad in the 60's he had a lot of customers in the
laundry and dry cleaning business. I remember wiring those self-serve dry
cleaning machines. At that time they used perchlorethylene (Perc for short)
in those machines and other commercial machines. That fluid got distilled
periodically to get the dirt out of the fluid. Another process used a fluid
that I only knew as petroleum which went down the sewer drain after it was
used. These were all open systems and the chemicals evaporated freely into
the air. A few years later the government required closed systems so no
evaporation occurred. I think one type of machine used fluorocarbons while
others still used perc. The dry cleaner that I use now told me his machine
uses a soy based cleaning fluid after I made a comment once about the place
not smelling like the chemicals I remember growing up with.

I would guess that a number of forces caused the demise of the self-serve
machine. Government regulation which made it too expensive to design and
make new machines in compliance every few years. Man-made fibers such as
polyester which don't need dry cleaning. The need to press the remaining
clothes such as wool suit and sport jackets that still do require dry
cleaning.

On Feb 2, 5:32*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 2/2/2011 4:19 PM, mm wrote:





On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:21:44 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
*wrote:

On Feb 2, 8:48 am, *wrote:
On 2/2/2011 11:25 AM, mm wrote:
(snip)

Personally, I decided years ago that 'dry clean only' clothes are for
rich people, and never buy anything like that.

I found out that if you get a polyester/wool blend the moths won't eat
your suit like they do an all-wool suit. *Silly goofs, they don't even
eat the wool parts!

(or maybe other blends)

At this point, I don't buy anything that can't go in the washer. They
don't pay me enough to wear a tie and jacket.

Not even a funeral?

Most of the old people I know have died already. I do still have a
monkey suit from years ago that lives in a plastic bag- hopefully the
plastic fumes and the flowers will hide any odors. I think I last wore
it around 5 years ago?

--
aem sends

I have 10 of those hanging in my closet gathering a lot of dust. I
used to wear a suit every day of the work week and on Sunday. Rotated
through them thru the week. Then we started with casual Friday and I
got out of wearing it one day a week. Not long after that business
casual became the norm and the suits went the way of the typewriter.
Had to have one of them cleaned recently so I could attend a funeral
and guess what...I was one of a very small minority wearing a suit.

Guess I must be one of those OLD PEOPLE who just hasn't died yet.
While it is comfortable to not have to wear the old monkey suit I miss
the professionalism that it generally represented.

On Feb 2, 1:19*pm, mm wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:21:44 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson



wrote:
On Feb 2, 8:48 am, aemeijers wrote:
On 2/2/2011 11:25 AM, mm wrote:
(snip)

Personally, I decided years ago that 'dry clean only' clothes are for
rich people, and never buy anything like that.

I found out that if you get a polyester/wool blend the moths won't eat
your suit like they do an all-wool suit. Silly goofs, they don't even
eat the wool parts!

(or maybe other blends)

At this point, I don't buy anything that can't go in the washer. They
don't pay me enough to wear a tie and jacket.

Not even a funeral?

--
aem sends...

I decided, with fear & trembling, to wash my expensive wool pants by
hand in a Woolite-type clone. *Thorough rinsing. *Hung carefully on
clothesline. (I have never used a dryer; perfectly satisfied with the
big dryer in the sky; of course my climate allows this.) * Came out
just beautiful. *I have very few garments that absolutely require "dry
cleaning": *KISS.

I had a second hand but great condition except for one cut sleeping
bag that needed mending and my mother did it and then she took it to a
dry cleaner to be cleaned. * The cleaner explained that it could be a
fatal mistake, that even after it aired a long time there would still
be plenty of fumes to kill me. *And he wouldn't do it (although my
mother didn't want him to after that.) *Maybe that was another reason
diy dry cleaning disappeared.

That is absolutely true. As a longtime Sierra Club member, I recall
getting a heads-up from my hiking group leader who told me to just
wash my down bag in the bathtub with mild soap. And do NOT try to lift
it out after repeated rinsing; the weight of the water would break the
baffles. Just wring gently it in place until able to maneuver it out,
slide it into the laundry basket, and spread on the grass to dry.

HB

On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:37:28 -0800 (PST), BobR
wrote:


I have 10 of those hanging in my closet gathering a lot of dust. I
used to wear a suit every day of the work week and on Sunday. Rotated
through them thru the week. Then we started with casual Friday and I
got out of wearing it one day a week. Not long after that business
casual became the norm and the suits went the way of the typewriter.
Had to have one of them cleaned recently so I could attend a funeral
and guess what...I was one of a very small minority wearing a suit.

Guess I must be one of those OLD PEOPLE who just hasn't died yet.
While it is comfortable to not have to wear the old monkey suit I miss
the professionalism that it generally represented.

That's sort of what I was thinking. You can skip professionalism at
your job if you don't care, or the boss doesn't care or doesn't
insist.

But to skip formality at a funeral, where it's meant to show respect
to someone ELSE, not to promote one's own career, seems very rude to
the family of the deceased, and if one is part of the family, to the
rest of the family and the deceased himself.

Higgs Boson wrote:

That is absolutely true. As a longtime Sierra Club member, I recall
getting a heads-up from my hiking group leader who told me to just
wash my down bag in the bathtub with mild soap. And do NOT try to lift
it out after repeated rinsing; the weight of the water would break the
baffles. Just wring gently it in place until able to maneuver it out,
slide it into the laundry basket, and spread on the grass to dry.


Good Lord! You WASH a sleeping bag? I can't imagine...

Well, I remember one time in the boy scouts --- an armadillo ran into a
fellow camper's sleeping bag while he was sound asleep.

The 'diller crapped an enormous amount of green diller-**** and scratched
the bejesus out of the boy's legs. Nothing for it but to toss the sleeping
bag on the campfire (sans armadillo).

The camper was devastated. After a shot of brandy, he slowly came around,
but I seriously doubt he'll ever be sane.

On 2/3/2011 7:00 AM, mm wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:37:28 -0800 (PST), BobR
wrote:


I have 10 of those hanging in my closet gathering a lot of dust. I
used to wear a suit every day of the work week and on Sunday. Rotated
through them thru the week. Then we started with casual Friday and I
got out of wearing it one day a week. Not long after that business
casual became the norm and the suits went the way of the typewriter.
Had to have one of them cleaned recently so I could attend a funeral
and guess what...I was one of a very small minority wearing a suit.

Guess I must be one of those OLD PEOPLE who just hasn't died yet.
While it is comfortable to not have to wear the old monkey suit I miss
the professionalism that it generally represented.

That's sort of what I was thinking. You can skip professionalism at
your job if you don't care, or the boss doesn't care or doesn't
insist.

But to skip formality at a funeral, where it's meant to show respect
to someone ELSE, not to promote one's own career, seems very rude to
the family of the deceased, and if one is part of the family, to the
rest of the family and the deceased himself.

Think you're wrong on your original premise. When I google it, a lot of
hits come up for kits you can buy.

I don't dress up for funerals but will wear a suit at my own.

I try to avoid funerals, I tell my friends that if I don't come to
theirs, they don't have to come to mine.

On 2/3/2011 7:00 AM, mm wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:37:28 -0800 (PST), BobR
wrote:


I have 10 of those hanging in my closet gathering a lot of dust. I
used to wear a suit every day of the work week and on Sunday. Rotated
through them thru the week. Then we started with casual Friday and I
got out of wearing it one day a week. Not long after that business
casual became the norm and the suits went the way of the typewriter.
Had to have one of them cleaned recently so I could attend a funeral
and guess what...I was one of a very small minority wearing a suit.

Guess I must be one of those OLD PEOPLE who just hasn't died yet.
While it is comfortable to not have to wear the old monkey suit I miss
the professionalism that it generally represented.

That's sort of what I was thinking. You can skip professionalism at
your job if you don't care, or the boss doesn't care or doesn't
insist.

But to skip formality at a funeral, where it's meant to show respect
to someone ELSE, not to promote one's own career, seems very rude to
the family of the deceased, and if one is part of the family, to the
rest of the family and the deceased himself.

Some of us don't judge professionalism by appearance, we judge it by the
quality of the work produced, and how well the employee works with others.

Quite frankly, when I see all the long-sleeved buzz-cut kids with the
chokers around their necks in my office, I have a lot of trouble not
laughing at them. I don't, of course, that wouldn't be professional. And
since they are contractors, I know it must be a corporate mandate. But
they all look like they are in a high school play.

--
aem sends...

On Feb 3, 5:01*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:

That is absolutely true. *As a longtime Sierra Club member, I recall
getting a heads-up from my hiking group leader who told me to just
wash my down bag in the bathtub with mild soap. And do NOT try to lift
it out after repeated rinsing; the weight of the water would break the
baffles. *Just wring gently it in place until able to maneuver it out,
slide it into the laundry basket, and spread on the grass to dry.

Good Lord! You WASH a sleeping bag? I can't imagine...

Hey, eventually, after a decade of rolling off the ground sheet onto
the dirt and uh, various internal emissions, even a down bag needs
help.

...

HB

On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 15:53:05 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 2/3/2011 7:00 AM, mm wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:37:28 -0800 (PST), BobR
wrote:


I have 10 of those hanging in my closet gathering a lot of dust. I
used to wear a suit every day of the work week and on Sunday. Rotated
through them thru the week. Then we started with casual Friday and I
got out of wearing it one day a week. Not long after that business
casual became the norm and the suits went the way of the typewriter.
Had to have one of them cleaned recently so I could attend a funeral
and guess what...I was one of a very small minority wearing a suit.

Guess I must be one of those OLD PEOPLE who just hasn't died yet.
While it is comfortable to not have to wear the old monkey suit I miss
the professionalism that it generally represented.

That's sort of what I was thinking. You can skip professionalism at
your job if you don't care, or the boss doesn't care or doesn't
insist.

But to skip formality at a funeral, where it's meant to show respect
to someone ELSE, not to promote one's own career, seems very rude to
the family of the deceased, and if one is part of the family, to the
rest of the family and the deceased himself.

Think you're wrong on your original premise. When I google it, a lot of
hits come up for kits you can buy.

What is my original premise? And what kind of kits can I buy?

I don't dress up for funerals but will wear a suit at my own.

I try to avoid funerals, I tell my friends that if I don't come to
theirs, they don't have to come to mine.

On Feb 2, 11:34*am, mm wrote:
Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

Dry cleaning fluids are highly toxic and atmospheric pollutants that
destroy the ozone layer. "Same day" and DIY dry cleaning is very
dangerous as the fluid has not had time to disperse from the clothing.
The fluid can be absorbed through the skin.
Several of the commonly used ones cause cancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrach...lth_and_safety

One of the things we're better off without.

On Feb 3, 1:01*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:

That is absolutely true. *As a longtime Sierra Club member, I recall
getting a heads-up from my hiking group leader who told me to just
wash my down bag in the bathtub with mild soap. And do NOT try to lift
it out after repeated rinsing; the weight of the water would break the
baffles. *Just wring gently it in place until able to maneuver it out,
slide it into the laundry basket, and spread on the grass to dry.

Good Lord! You WASH a sleeping bag? I can't imagine...

Well, I remember one time in the boy scouts --- an armadillo ran into a
fellow camper's sleeping bag while he was sound asleep.

The 'diller crapped an enormous amount of green diller-**** and scratched
the bejesus out of the boy's legs. Nothing for it but to toss the sleeping
bag on the campfire (sans armadillo).

The camper was devastated. After a shot of brandy, he slowly came around,
but I seriously doubt he'll ever be sane.

Dry cleaning fluid also causes brain damage. Hmm.

On Sun, 6 Feb 2011 03:31:11 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 2, 11:34*am, mm wrote:
Whatever happened to DIY dry cleaning.?

Someone mentioned they have a box that looks like Dryel but is generic
so one can do dry cleaning in his own home.

Good idea?

I never knew or don't remember why do it yourself dry cleaning
machines at laundromats disappeared.

Dry cleaning fluids are highly toxic and atmospheric pollutants that
destroy the ozone layer. "Same day" and DIY dry cleaning is very
dangerous as the fluid has not had time to disperse from the clothing.
The fluid can be absorbed through the skin.
Several of the commonly used ones cause cancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrach...lth_and_safety

One of the things we're better off without.

Thanks, and thanks all. John's was particularly interesting.