I want to build a wall around my electrical panel, which is mounted on
a piece of plywood (4' x 4') attached to a concrete wall in the
basement. Circuits exiting the panel are stapled to the plywood.

I've heard that people treat this type of obstacle as a window. I
could treat the plywood as the 'window', but that would leave an ugly
4' x 4' mess of exposed wires.

Alternately, I could treat the electrical panel as the 'window', such
that drywall would cover everything but the panel itself. I just
don't see how it is possible to do this...the wires around the panel
would interfere with framing, wouldn't they?

To complicate things, a couple of circuits are being added to the
panel, while some others may require temporary disconnection.
Presumably this would have to be done before I try framing the wall.

My 'contractor' suggested building the wall out an extra 6", and
having a recessed electrical panel...but that seems like an
unnecessary waste of space in an already cramped house.

Surely there are lots of people out there who have encountered this
problem. Any ideas would be appreciated!

On Oct 28, 11:22*am, Borrall Wonnell wrote:
I want to build a wall around my electrical panel, which is mounted on
a piece of plywood (4' x 4') attached to a concrete wall in the
basement. *Circuits exiting the panel are stapled to the plywood.

I've heard that people treat this type of obstacle as a window. *I
could treat the plywood as the 'window', but that would leave an ugly
4' x 4' mess of exposed wires.

Alternately, I could treat the electrical panel as the 'window', such
that drywall would cover everything but the panel itself. *I just
don't see how it is possible to do this...the wires around the panel
would interfere with framing, wouldn't they?

To complicate things, a couple of circuits are being added to the
panel, while some others may require temporary disconnection.
Presumably this would have to be done before I try framing the wall.

My 'contractor' suggested building the wall out an extra 6", and
having a recessed electrical panel...but that seems like an
unnecessary waste of space in an already cramped house.

Surely there are lots of people out there who have encountered this
problem. *Any ideas would be appreciated!

==
Google it.
==

Borrall Wonnell wrote:
I want to build a wall around my electrical panel, which is mounted on
a piece of plywood (4' x 4') attached to a concrete wall in the
basement. Circuits exiting the panel are stapled to the plywood.

I've heard that people treat this type of obstacle as a window. I
could treat the plywood as the 'window', but that would leave an ugly
4' x 4' mess of exposed wires.

Alternately, I could treat the electrical panel as the 'window', such
that drywall would cover everything but the panel itself. I just
don't see how it is possible to do this...the wires around the panel
would interfere with framing, wouldn't they?
....

W/O a view of the actual situation, exact particulars/suggestions are
futile, but the general thing is to frame up to the location of the
panel where there's flat wall conventionally and then do what has to be
done from there...to maintain a flat front surface means trimming the
tubafor down or using 2x2 or even 1x for in front of the ply around the box.

I'd suggest rather than sheetrock over that area to use ply or paneling
fastened w/ removable fasteners to additional circuits can be added at
future time w/o tearing up the wall surface.

Most service panels are designed so they will fit flush in a standard
wall cavity depth so it shouldn't be particularly difficult to build up
something that'll work.

--

I want to build a wall around my electrical panel, which is mounted on
a piece of plywood (4' x 4') attached to a concrete wall in the
basement. Circuits exiting the panel are stapled to the plywood.

I've heard that people treat this type of obstacle as a window. I
could treat the plywood as the 'window', but that would leave an ugly
4' x 4' mess of exposed wires.

Alternately, I could treat the electrical panel as the 'window', such
that drywall would cover everything but the panel itself. I just
don't see how it is possible to do this...the wires around the panel
would interfere with framing, wouldn't they?

To complicate things, a couple of circuits are being added to the
panel, while some others may require temporary disconnection.
Presumably this would have to be done before I try framing the wall.

My 'contractor' suggested building the wall out an extra 6", and
having a recessed electrical panel...but that seems like an
unnecessary waste of space in an already cramped house.

Surely there are lots of people out there who have encountered this
problem. Any ideas would be appreciated!


*Usually what I see is the wall built out a little and a full size door
installed for very easy access. The other common solution is a full size
storeroom or utility room made around the panel. I have gone into older
basements that have the electrical panel framed like a window with some
shutters or plywood door to cover the opening. Those are a PITA to work on
and to try to get new circuits into.

The electrical code requires at least 36" of clearance in front of the
panel.

If you can post some pictures, maybe more suggestions will come forward.

dpb wrote:

Borrall Wonnell wrote:
I want to build a wall around my electrical panel, which is mounted on
a piece of plywood (4' x 4') attached to a concrete wall in the
basement. Circuits exiting the panel are stapled to the plywood.

I've heard that people treat this type of obstacle as a window. I
could treat the plywood as the 'window', but that would leave an ugly
4' x 4' mess of exposed wires.

Alternately, I could treat the electrical panel as the 'window', such
that drywall would cover everything but the panel itself. I just
don't see how it is possible to do this...the wires around the panel
would interfere with framing, wouldn't they?
...

W/O a view of the actual situation, exact particulars/suggestions are
futile, but the general thing is to frame up to the location of the
panel where there's flat wall conventionally and then do what has to be
done from there...to maintain a flat front surface means trimming the
tubafor down or using 2x2 or even 1x for in front of the ply around the box.

I'd suggest rather than sheetrock over that area to use ply or paneling
fastened w/ removable fasteners to additional circuits can be added at
future time w/o tearing up the wall surface.

Most service panels are designed so they will fit flush in a standard
wall cavity depth so it shouldn't be particularly difficult to build up
something that'll work.

--

My suggestion, which I've done in the past, is to frame a standard door
in front of the panel area and use a pre-hung flush door in front of the
panel. This is entirely to code, since with the door open there is full
access to the entire panel and then some. I also use a recessed handle
and ball catch on the door which helps differentiate it from the normal
doors in the area. Simple, easy $30 solution.

On Oct 28, 3:45*pm, dpb wrote:
Borrall Wonnell wrote:

W/O a view of the actual situation, exact particulars/suggestions are
futile, but the general thing is to frame up to the location of the
panel where there's flat wall conventionally and then do what has to be
done from there...to maintain a flat front surface means trimming the
tubafor down or using 2x2 or even 1x for in front of the ply around the box.

The panel and layout is pretty ordinary/basic, with no real obstacles
or special circumstances. For me, this is a very helpful suggestion!


I'd suggest rather than sheetrock over that area to use ply or paneling
fastened w/ removable fasteners to additional circuits can be added at
future time w/o tearing up the wall surface.


Great idea! After this reno there will be no additional circuits to
be found, but I prefer to leave access to areas that may require
future service. My situation is typical. The panel is of a "proper"
depth to accommodate a 2x4 wall, so I think I will be able to build
'something that'll work'.

Regards,
Dave

On Oct 28, 3:52*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Surely there are lots of people out there who have encountered this
problem. *Any ideas would be appreciated!

*Usually what I see is the wall built out a little and a full size door
installed for very easy access. *The other common solution is a full size
storeroom or utility room made around the panel. *I have gone into older
basements that have the electrical panel framed like a window with some
shutters or plywood door to cover the opening. *Those are a PITA to work on
and to try to get new circuits into.

The electrical code requires at least 36" of clearance in front of the
panel.


No pictures required...this is a very typical panel installation. The
original plan was to build a utility room. However, SWMBO decided
otherwise. Building a closet/door is also out...the local inspector
frowned on the idea. Thanks for the suggestions though!

On Oct 28, 3:44*pm, Roy wrote:
On Oct 28, 11:22*am, Borrall Wonnell wrote:
==
Google it.
==

I did 'Google it'...and found nothing useful. Then I searched the
histories of this group looking for similar posts.
Finally I decided to post a question and got some very useful
suggestions, none of which were readily available via a standard web
search.
In turn, I try and respond with suggestions when there are questions
in an area where I have some experience.

Groups like this thrive when people have meaningful discussions. Your
posts, on the other hand, do nothing to advance the group.

Pete C. wrote:
....

My suggestion, which I've done in the past, is to frame a standard door
in front of the panel area and use a pre-hung flush door in front of the
panel. This is entirely to code, since with the door open there is full
access to the entire panel and then some. I also use a recessed handle
and ball catch on the door which helps differentiate it from the normal
doors in the area. Simple, easy $30 solution.

Certainly a possibility; route depends mostly on what the desired look
is--one leaves a panel in a wall which in basement may be perfectly ok;
other leaves a doorway in the area.

I've done combination of both as well--half-door, half framed-in and
covered. Either is fully Code compliant.

--

On Oct 28, 2:59*pm, Borrall Wonnell wrote:
On Oct 28, 3:52*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

Surely there are lots of people out there who have encountered this
problem. *Any ideas would be appreciated!

*Usually what I see is the wall built out a little and a full size door
installed for very easy access. *The other common solution is a full size
storeroom or utility room made around the panel. *I have gone into older
basements that have the electrical panel framed like a window with some
shutters or plywood door to cover the opening. *Those are a PITA to work on
and to try to get new circuits into.

The electrical code requires at least 36" of clearance in front of the
panel.

No pictures required...this is a very typical panel installation. *The
original plan was to build a utility room. *However, SWMBO decided
otherwise. *Building a closet/door is also out...the local inspector
frowned on the idea. *Thanks for the suggestions though!

What does frown on the idea mean? Panelboards are located in closets
a lot of times. Ask him to point out exactly what part of the code
prohibits it. If he can't/won't point out the code prohibition (which
he won't, since there are none - there are limitations on access, but
no prohibitions to panelboards in a closet/enclosure), ask what
problems he has with it, and then address those.

R

On Oct 28, 1:11*pm, Borrall Wonnell wrote:
On Oct 28, 3:44*pm, Roy wrote:

On Oct 28, 11:22*am, Borrall Wonnell wrote:
==
Google it.
==

I did 'Google it'...and found nothing useful. *Then I searched the
histories of this group looking for similar posts.
Finally I decided to post a question and got some very useful
suggestions, none of which were readily available via a standard web
search.
In turn, I try and respond with suggestions when there are questions
in an area where I have some experience.

Groups like this thrive when people have meaningful discussions. *Your
posts, on the other hand, do nothing to advance the group.

==
The last time I encountered the same situation as yours, I built a big
box around the electrical panel and I could easily remove the metal
box cover and access the wiring and breakers entering and leaving the
panel, The box extended out from the wall about 10 inches or so and
the front had a small frame around it. I just slipped a loose panel
into the frame and loosely attached it with a couple of small clear
plastic turnbuttons. Since the cover was of the same material as the
wallboard it fit in perfectly. I wish that I could include a drawing.
If an inspector was coming I just removed the front cover and
voila...an open accessible box for his inspection. Anyway, it passed.
==

On Oct 28, 3:04*pm, Roy wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:11*pm, Borrall Wonnell wrote:



On Oct 28, 3:44*pm, Roy wrote:

On Oct 28, 11:22*am, Borrall Wonnell wrote:
==
Google it.
==

I did 'Google it'...and found nothing useful. *Then I searched the
histories of this group looking for similar posts.
Finally I decided to post a question and got some very useful
suggestions, none of which were readily available via a standard web
search.
In turn, I try and respond with suggestions when there are questions
in an area where I have some experience.

Groups like this thrive when people have meaningful discussions. *Your
posts, on the other hand, do nothing to advance the group.

==
The last time I encountered the same situation as yours, I built a big
box around the electrical panel and I could easily remove the metal
box cover and access the wiring and breakers entering and leaving the
panel, The box extended out from the wall about 10 inches or so and
the front had a small frame around it. I just slipped a loose panel
into the frame and loosely attached it with a couple of small clear
plastic turnbuttons. Since the cover was of the same material as the
wallboard it fit in perfectly. I wish that I could include a drawing.
If an inspector was coming I just removed the front cover and
voila...an open accessible box for his inspection. Anyway, it passed.
==

Actually the box only needs to be about 6 inches deep. I had to make
mine deeper because of other factors involving prior overhead
construction getting in the way.
==

On 2010-10-28, Pete C. wrote:

My suggestion, which I've done in the past, is to frame a standard door
in front of the panel area and use a pre-hung flush door in front of the
panel. This is entirely to code, since with the door open there is full
access to the entire panel and then some.

The required working space width is 30" (NEC 110.26(A)(2)). So that
will fly if with the door open you have a full 30" from the face of
the door to the latch side stop.

Cheers, Wayne

On Oct 29, 3:51*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2010-10-28, Pete C. wrote:

My suggestion, which I've done in the past, is to frame a standard door
in front of the panel area and use a pre-hung flush door in front of the
panel. This is entirely to code, since with the door open there is full
access to the entire panel and then some.

The required working space width is 30" (NEC 110.26(A)(2)). *So that
will fly if with the door open you have a full 30" from the face of
the door to the latch side stop.

If the inspector is a real tight ass, he might say that the 30" door's
width, and door stops, intrude on the required 30" width, so a 32"
wide door would be required, but I've never seen an electrical
inspector be really tight-assed if there isn't some life safety issue
on the line.

R

Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2010-10-28, Pete C. wrote:

My suggestion, which I've done in the past, is to frame a standard door
in front of the panel area and use a pre-hung flush door in front of the
panel. This is entirely to code, since with the door open there is full
access to the entire panel and then some.

The required working space width is 30" (NEC 110.26(A)(2)). So that
will fly if with the door open you have a full 30" from the face of
the door to the latch side stop.

Cheers, Wayne

30,32,34,36" doors are standards. That requirement is also open to
interpretation in a case where the door frame might be smaller than 30",
say a 24" door, but the frame and wall are only a couple inches past the
face of the panel and there is far more than the 30" width available
after that couple inches. The requirement is there so that a person of
average 24"+ width can fit in the space in front of the panel, a person
standing in front of the open door and reaching into the panel would
seem to fit the intent of the rule, regardless if the door width was
less than the 30" but at least the width of the panel cover. Then of
course there are also plenty of places the NEC doesn't apply.

On 2010-10-29, RicodJour wrote:

If the inspector is a real tight ass, he might say that the 30"
door's width, and door stops, intrude on the required 30" width, so
a 32" wide door would be required, but I've never seen an electrical
inspector be really tight-assed if there isn't some life safety
issue on the line.

Hey, 2" could be a life-safety issue, working space is (obviously) for
the protection of workers. My general attitude is that electricity is
on the more dangerous end of the things I work with, so it makes sense
to be very careful. The NEC requirement is clear and unambiguous, you
need 30" of clear width with the door open.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2010-10-29, RicodJour wrote:

If the inspector is a real tight ass, he might say that the 30"
door's width, and door stops, intrude on the required 30" width, so
a 32" wide door would be required, but I've never seen an electrical
inspector be really tight-assed if there isn't some life safety
issue on the line.

Hey, 2" could be a life-safety issue, working space is (obviously) for
the protection of workers. My general attitude is that electricity is
on the more dangerous end of the things I work with, so it makes sense
to be very careful. The NEC requirement is clear and unambiguous, you
need 30" of clear width with the door open.

Cheers, Wayne

The NEC requirement is ambiguous in this context. The panel is less than
30" wide and you have to reach inside the ~3.5" depth to work. This is a
panel mounted on plywood on a concrete wall, if you frame a wall for
this area it would be perhaps 1" off that concrete wall, meaning that
the face of the electrical panel would be about 2" behind the face of
the new wall and doorway. I don't think any sane person or even
inspector would argue that a 24" wide doorway to access an electrical
panel 2" behind it would violate the workspace access provision of the
NEC. That provision is intended to apply to obstacles that protrude a
significant distance on the sides of the panel, i.e. where you would
have to stand sideways to get to the panel, not a couple inches where
you have easy access.

On 2010-10-30, Pete C. wrote:

The NEC requirement is ambiguous in this context. The panel is less than
30" wide and you have to reach inside the ~3.5" depth to work. This is a
panel mounted on plywood on a concrete wall, if you frame a wall for
this area it would be perhaps 1" off that concrete wall, meaning that
the face of the electrical panel would be about 2" behind the face of
the new wall and doorway.

NEC 110.26(A)(1) says:

(1) Depth of Working Space. The depth of the working space in the
direction of live parts shall not be less than that specified in
Table 110.26(A)(1) unless the requirements of 110.26(A)(1)(a),
(A)(1)(b), or (A)(1)(c) are met. Distances shall be measured from
the exposed live parts or from the enclosure or opening if the live
parts are enclosed.

The last sentence seems clear to me, the depth is measured starting at
the face of the enclosure. And 110.26(A)(2) gives the required width
of 30", and 110.26(A)(3) gives the height of 78". Basically, you need
to be able to slide a refrigerator box measuring 30" wide by 36" deep
by 78" tall directly up to the face of the panel.

110.26(A)(3) does say that related electrical equipment above or below
the panel may stick out up to 6" past the panel face. But doors and
door stops are not electrical equipment.

So what's so hard about using a 32" door?

Cheers, Wayne

In er.com,
Pete C. typed:
Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2010-10-29, RicodJour wrote:

If the inspector is a real tight ass, he might say that
the 30" door's width, and door stops, intrude on the
required 30" width, so a 32" wide door would be required,
but I've never seen an electrical inspector be really
tight-assed if there isn't some life safety issue on the
line.

Hey, 2" could be a life-safety issue, working space is
(obviously) for the protection of workers. My general
attitude is that electricity is on the more dangerous end
of the things I work with, so it makes sense to be very
careful. The NEC requirement is clear and unambiguous,
you need 30" of clear width with the door open.

Cheers, Wayne

The NEC requirement is ambiguous in this context. The panel
is less than 30" wide and you have to reach inside the
~3.5" depth to work. This is a panel mounted on plywood on
a concrete wall, if you frame a wall for this area it would
be perhaps 1" off that concrete wall, meaning that the face
of the electrical panel would be about 2" behind the face
of the new wall and doorway. I don't think any sane person
or even inspector would argue that a 24" wide doorway to
access an electrical panel 2" behind it would violate the
workspace access provision of the NEC. That provision is
intended to apply to obstacles that protrude a significant
distance on the sides of the panel, i.e. where you would
have to stand sideways to get to the panel, not a couple
inches where you have easy access.

Maybe. I can read that section in a couple different ways. The ONLY way to
be sure is to call your local code enforcement office and ask for their
opinions. It costs little to nothing to call plus gets you their
interpretation of the requirement. Write down the names/times, even quotes
if you recall them, of who told you what in case you run into a renegade
inspector. I've met more inspectors than the average bear in California,
Chicago and now here in upstate rural NY and every single one of them has
been friendly and helpful if anything showed up in an inspection.
Local ordinances have the last word on things like this and it is written
information created by them. Very often, if an inspector is going to be in
this area they'll stop by and give us a freebie heads up or a very quick
look-see and Q&A.

HTH,

Twayne`