in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

On Sep 22, 5:09*am, bpuharic wrote:
in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. *anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

I bet you had a big surge or a nearby lightning strike, or you
presently dont get clean power. I had lightning nearby blow out over
10,000$ worth of stuff, since then I installed a main panel lightning
arrestor and surge protector , individual surge protectors and
upgraded ground. Start by checking you have 120 or so then look into
protection. Is your area hit by lightning often.

in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

I bet you had a big surge or a nearby lightning strike, or you
presently dont get clean power. I had lightning nearby blow out over
10,000$ worth of stuff, since then I installed a main panel lightning
arrestor and surge protector , individual surge protectors and
upgraded ground. Start by checking you have 120 or so then look into
protection. Is your area hit by lightning often.



*I would also check the grounding electrode system. Check the ground rod
connections. If it is an old house, install new ground rods. Check the
water pipe connection. Make sure the ground connections are tight in the
main panel.

On Sep 22, 6:09*am, bpuharic wrote:
in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. *anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

It does seem like you have bad luck with these. I'd suspect power
issues though most of them have switching power supplies these days
and can take a lot of abuse. I think you can get ovens and fridges
that are still mechanical but I'm not so sure about dishwashers. They
will be the "cheap" models though.

Control boards replacing mechnical controls statistically is more
reliable. Any time you replace moving parts with electronic ones the
outcome is generally better. It also allows for more features that
would not have been possible otherwise. It is also cheaper to
produce. Don't expect it to change.

On 9/22/2010 7:17 AM, John Grabowski wrote:
in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

It smartens everything up, you can better "mileage" out of your
electricity. The cycling has gotten sophisticated, not sure what the
advantage would be for an oven but it is substantial for devices with
compressors in them.


I bet you had a big surge or a nearby lightning strike, or you
presently dont get clean power. I had lightning nearby blow out over
10,000$ worth of stuff, since then I installed a main panel lightning
arrestor and surge protector , individual surge protectors and
upgraded ground. Start by checking you have 120 or so then look into
protection. Is your area hit by lightning often.



*I would also check the grounding electrode system. Check the ground rod
connections. If it is an old house, install new ground rods. Check the
water pipe connection. Make sure the ground connections are tight in the
main panel.


That, I think is excellent advise.

I think it's time to redo my grounding (on the cold water line).
Grounding wasn't so important in '29!

Jeff

"bpuharic" wrote in message
...
in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.


I've heard many complaints about electronics in newer appliances. Seems
like the more "features" added, the lower the reliability.
Ranges are the worst, probably due to the heat. When we bought a new gas
range, one of the requirements was no electronics. We bought a Bertazzoni
range. All mechanical and works well.

Given the fact that you blew out three boards in two years, I'd check the
incoming voltage and add surge suppressors on the line incase of spikes.

On 2010-09-22, bpuharic wrote:

have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

So, why do you keep buying appliances WITH control boards? I'm sure
someone still makes 'em without.

nb

notbob wrote:
....

So, why do you keep buying appliances WITH control boards? I'm sure
someone still makes 'em without.
....

If you can find one, it would be interesting where it might be and who
is producing it (and what its features/cost are/is)...

--

wrote:

Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet code
for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding rod at
the service entrance.

The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is not to
ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing system.

ransley wrote:
On Sep 22, 5:09 am, bpuharic wrote:
in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

I bet you had a big surge or a nearby lightning strike, or you
presently dont get clean power. I had lightning nearby blow out over
10,000$ worth of stuff, since then I installed a main panel lightning
arrestor and surge protector , individual surge protectors and
upgraded ground. Start by checking you have 120 or so then look into
protection. Is your area hit by lightning often.

Good point. A whole-house surge protector is in the neighborhood of $50-60
and is trivial to install in the circuit-breaker box.

On 2010-09-22, dpb wrote:

If you can find one, it would be interesting where it might be and who
is producing it (and what its features/cost are/is)...

http://tinyurl.com/2523ckz

You can't tell me there aren't more.

You have to decide what you really want. You want digital clocks and
digital temp readouts and all that crap, you can't avoid control
boards. Myself, I can do without a clock on my stove jes fine cuz I
got one on the wall.

nb

jamesgangnc wrote:

Control boards replacing mechnical controls statistically is more
reliable. Any time you replace moving parts with electronic ones the
outcome is generally better. It also allows for more features that
would not have been possible otherwise. It is also cheaper to
produce. Don't expect it to change.

It is cheaper to produce. Period. If they sold replacements for corresponding
prices, it wouldn't be such a problem. Older, mechanical controls were virtually
immune to surge damage short of direct lightening strikes. The "modern"
electronic parts are obviously not well enough designed to claim equivalent
immunity. They could be, but that costs money.

On 9/22/2010 11:17 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 10:01:28 -0500,
wrote:

wrote:

Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet code
for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding rod at
the service entrance.

The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is not to
ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing system.


That's what I said.

I believe he said that for my benefit, not to correct you.

I'll pick up some ground rods and rewire. I've only ever had modems
blow... not power. Still...

Jeff

On Sep 22, 7:55*am, dpb wrote:
notbob wrote:

...

So, why do you keep buying appliances WITH control boards? *I'm sure
someone still makes 'em without.

...

If you can find one, it would be interesting where it might be and who
is producing it (and what its features/cost are/is)...

--

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...285178 908930

Reminds me of the store that put up a big sign. Before I got my
digicam, or I'd have taken a picture.

They had moved all the shopping carts outside, the sign said "to serve
you better" to take cart before going into the store.

Supposedly the electronics makest the devices more responsive to your
needs and wishes.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"bpuharic" wrote in message
...
in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

On Sep 22, 6:09 am, bpuharic wrote:
within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. anyone
have any idea what's up with all this?

Electronics many generations ago were required to withstand 600
volts transients without damage. Your damage is the 'canary in the
coalmine'. Nobody should have such transients. And such transients
are routinely averted when protector is earthed where wires enter the
building.

Well you had numerous small (but destructive) transients. What will
happen when the big one comes? Serious surges occur typically once
every seven years. Your 'dead' canary is reporting insufficient
protection. Others have said how easily protection is installed - at
about $1 per protected appliance. All appliances contain serious
protection. Due to insufficient protection at the service entrance,
you have transients that have overwhelmed that existing protection.
Listen to the dead canary.

wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 10:01:28 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:

Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet
code for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding
rod at the service entrance.

The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is
not to ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing
system.


That's what I said.

Ah, I see. I didn't mean to correct you - you didn't need correcting - I was
just pointing out that the purpose of connecting a wire to the plumbing
system is to prevent someone from getting shocked by touching a pipe, not to
prevent a shock from touching a toaster.

westom wrote:

Well you had numerous small (but destructive) transients. What will
happen when the big one comes? Serious surges occur typically once
every seven years. Your 'dead' canary is reporting insufficient
protection. Others have said how easily protection is installed - at
about $1 per protected appliance. All appliances contain serious
protection. Due to insufficient protection at the service entrance,
you have transients that have overwhelmed that existing protection.
Listen to the dead canary.

Listen to the dead canary?

On 9/22/2010 4:09 AM, bpuharic wrote:
in the last 3 years i bought a GE refrigerator, a Jenn Air oven and a
whirlpool dishwasher.

within 2 years, ALL of them blew out their control boards. anyone
have any idea what's up with all this? who the hell needs control
boards in refrigerators or dishwashers or ovens? this is ridiculous
and seems to be an effort by companies to create repair business.

You just answered your own question. Repair men need control boards
in such devices.

HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet code
for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding rod at
the service entrance.

The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is not to
ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing system.


I really don't understand where this nonsense comes from.

The NEC *requires* that a water service pipe, if it is at least 10 ft of
metal in the earth, be used as an earthing electrode. It has been a
requirement since 1777 (more or less). Also bonding is required across
the water meter.

Rules have changed somewhat, including now the connection to the water
service pipe must be within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the building.

For over 50 years the NEC has required a "supplemental" electrode for
water pipe electrodes *if* the water service pipe was likely to be
replaced by plastic. Years ago the code was changed to just routinely
require a "supplemental" electrode. Ground rods were routinely used. The
NEC requires the resistance to earth for a ground rod be 25 ohms or
less, or else 2 rods can be used. It is easiest to just install 2 rods.
Ground rods are a poor earthing electrode (25 ohms is slightly better
than nothing). A metal water service pipe is a good electrode,
particularly if connected to a metal municipal water system. The code
now requires, for most new construction, a "concrete encased electrode",
commonly called a Ufer ground, be an earthing electrode. This is a good
electrode, and replaces the ground rod(s) as a supplemental electrode
when needed.

Only if the water service pipe is not metal does the NEC require
*bonding* of the interior water pipe (instead of using the service pipe
as an earthing electrode). The rules are similar, but not identical, to
use as an earthing electrode.

**************
In addition to checking the earthing system, I would check the
neutral-ground bond, which should be at the service disconnect. If it is
not present, the hot and neutral wire potential could rise far above the
ground wire, which in some cases cause damage. The bond is often a screw
that looks like a mounting screw for the neutral bar. Recent ones are
likely green.

--
bud--

manufacturers love control boards since they let the manufacturer
decide when any products end of life is.

many can work around mechanical stuff but a dead board thats no longer
made is the end of that device....

bud-- wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet
code for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding
rod at the service entrance.

The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is
not to ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing
system.

I really don't understand where this nonsense comes from.

Think open neutral - at your house or a neighbors on the same transformer.

On 09/23/10 11:19 am, bud-- wrote:

Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet code
for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding rod at
the service entrance.

The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is not
to ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing system.

I really don't understand where this nonsense comes from.

The NEC *requires* that a water service pipe, if it is at least 10 ft of
metal in the earth, be used as an earthing electrode. It has been a
requirement since 1777 (more or less). Also bonding is required across
the water meter.

I assume that you mean "1977": I can't imagine that the NEC existed in 1777.

But I think you and HeyBub are talking about two different things. Yes,
IF there is a metal water pipe with at least ten feet in the ground it
must be used as one element of the grounding system -- but always
supplemented by at least one ground rod (two to avoid having to prove
that the first one has no more than 25 Ohms resistance).

BUT if there is metal plumbing but the supply line is not metal with at
least ten feet in the ground, then that metal plumbing must be bonded to
the electrical system ground so that the plumber does not get
electrocuted by an accidentally live water pipe. Ours isn't, as far as I
can tell.

Similarly, gas piping must be bonded to the electrical system ground for
the same reason. Ours isn't, as far as I can tell.

Perce

Years ago, when the water department put in plastic meters, they had
to put a large metal strap from one side to the other. Other than
that, metal plumbing pipes are supposed to be grounded, unless there
is a bit of plastic pipe in there some where.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
...


The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is
not to ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing
system.


That's what I said.

Ah, I see. I didn't mean to correct you - you didn't need correcting -
I was
just pointing out that the purpose of connecting a wire to the
plumbing
system is to prevent someone from getting shocked by touching a pipe,
not to
prevent a shock from touching a toaster.

My dead canary sings opera. It's a real tweat to hear. Even the
transients like to come and loiter outside my window. I put up a "no
loitering" sign, and now they just stand around.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
westom wrote:

protection. Due to insufficient protection at the service entrance,
you have transients that have overwhelmed that existing protection.
Listen to the dead canary.

Listen to the dead canary?

The Continental Congress must have been rather busy that year. The
1777 congress also mandated airbags in passenger cars, and 1.6 GPF
toilets. In addition to writing much of the Bill of Rights.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 09/23/10 11:19 am, bud-- wrote:

metal in the earth, be used as an earthing electrode. It has been a
requirement since 1777 (more or less). Also bonding is required
across
the water meter.

I assume that you mean "1977": I can't imagine that the NEC existed in
1777.

wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:19:21 -0500, bud--
wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet code
for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding rod at
the service entrance.
The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is not to
ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing system.

I really don't understand where this nonsense comes from.


Please consult with the building department inspector in any city in
the U.S.

Please consult with the National Electrical Code
"250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as
described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each
building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system."

"250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water
pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."

A water pipe in the ground for 10 ft (described by 250.52(A)(1)) MUST be
used as a grounding electrode (by 250.50).

This has been in the NEC far longer than any of the code books I have
(oldest one is 1968). I think it goes back to 1777 - one of the first
things the Continental Congress did


Grounding your electrical system via the water service pipe alone does
not meet code anywhere that I have ever heard of.

It meets the code in my house. It was code compliant when installed so
it is compliant now. That probably applies to millions of houses.

Yes, you must bond
the water service pipe to the electrical system for safety,

As I wrote, bonding rules are different. You only "bond" if the water
service pipe is not used as a grounding electrode. See above - if a
metal pipe is 10 ft in the earth it is *REQUIRED* to be used as a
grounding electrode.

Don't confuse bonding with use as a grounding electrode.

but a
separate earth ground for the system is ALWAYS required to meet code.


A "supplemental" electrode was not *always* required until the 1978 NEC.

It is "supplemental" because it supplements the main electrode - the
water pipe. Ground rods were commonly used - they are close to a joke. A
water pipe is far better.

My house had the service upgraded before 1978 and does not have a
"supplemental" electrode. It is code compliant.

The NEC Handbook says "The requirement to supplement the metal water
pipe is based on the practice of using plastic pipe for replacement when
the original metal water pipe fails."
Water pipe is a good electrode. The problem is it may be replaced by
plastic in the future.


Contrary to what seems to be a common internet opinion, water pipe
(metal, 10 ft...) is *REQUIRED* to be a grounding electrode. Read the
NEC (relevant quotes provided).

--
bud--

wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:33:05 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:19:21 -0500, bud--
wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet code
for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding rod at
the service entrance.
The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is not to
ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing system.

I really don't understand where this nonsense comes from.

Please consult with the building department inspector in any city in
the U.S.
Please consult with the National Electrical Code
"250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as
described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each
building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system."

"250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water
pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."

A water pipe in the ground for 10 ft (described by 250.52(A)(1)) MUST be
used as a grounding electrode (by 250.50).

This has been in the NEC far longer than any of the code books I have
(oldest one is 1968). I think it goes back to 1777 - one of the first
things the Continental Congress did

Grounding your electrical system via the water service pipe alone does
not meet code anywhere that I have ever heard of.
It meets the code in my house. It was code compliant when installed so
it is compliant now. That probably applies to millions of houses.

Yes, you must bond
the water service pipe to the electrical system for safety,
As I wrote, bonding rules are different. You only "bond" if the water
service pipe is not used as a grounding electrode. See above - if a
metal pipe is 10 ft in the earth it is *REQUIRED* to be used as a
grounding electrode.

Don't confuse bonding with use as a grounding electrode.

but a
separate earth ground for the system is ALWAYS required to meet code.

A "supplemental" electrode was not *always* required until the 1978 NEC.

It is "supplemental" because it supplements the main electrode - the
water pipe. Ground rods were commonly used - they are close to a joke. A
water pipe is far better.

My house had the service upgraded before 1978 and does not have a
"supplemental" electrode. It is code compliant.

The NEC Handbook says "The requirement to supplement the metal water
pipe is based on the practice of using plastic pipe for replacement when
the original metal water pipe fails."
Water pipe is a good electrode. The problem is it may be replaced by
plastic in the future.


Contrary to what seems to be a common internet opinion, water pipe
(metal, 10 ft...) is *REQUIRED* to be a grounding electrode. Read the
NEC (relevant quotes provided).

You are misunderstanding what you are reading, Bud.

Perhaps you could explain.

The relevant code was provided and is perfectly clear. If it meets the
description in 250.52(A)(1) (10 ft metal in the ground) it MUST be used
as an earthing electrode (250.50).

Please don't
become another w_tom. One is enough!


One of w_tom, aka westom's, rants was that not only was a water service
pipe not required to be used as a earthing electrode, it must absolutely
not be used as an earthing electrode. One of his most bizarre posts was
on the subject.

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:

The NEC Handbook says "The requirement to supplement the metal water
pipe is based on the practice of using plastic pipe for replacement
when the original metal water pipe fails."
Water pipe is a good electrode. The problem is it may be replaced by
plastic in the future.


Contrary to what seems to be a common internet opinion, water pipe
(metal, 10 ft...) is *REQUIRED* to be a grounding electrode. Read the
NEC (relevant quotes provided).

My house, built in the '60s, has galvanized iron pipe throughout. It's built
on a slab with all pipes in the walls and the attic.

Eventually, the iron pipe exits the wall to connect to the city water
system. As the pipe leaves the house, it encounters a valve, then, on the
other side of the valve, plastic to the city.

There is no connection between any of my water pipes and the earth -- unless
you count the conductivity of the water itself.

On Sep 24, 1:41 pm, bud-- wrote:
One of w_tom, akawestom's, rants was that not only was a water service
pipe not required to be used as a earthing electrode, it must absolutely
not be used as an earthing electrode.

He was exposed as a repeated liar. So Bud must misrepresent what I
said so as to insult. Bud is a sales promoter of scam products. He
will not even admit to promoting his company products. He lies about
what I posted because I identified him as unethical.

So many including Saltydog and HeyBub are now repeating what I
accurately posted so many years ago. And was attacked by Bud because
that is what a sales promoter does. Only earthing electrode that is
insufficient is the cold water pipe. I said it then and was attacked
by Bud for accurately citing code. All other electrodes are
sufficient to meet code. I said it then and I repeat it again - into
Bud's lying face. The only electrode that must always be supplemented
by any other electrode is a cold water pipe.

Cold water pipe (with some rare exceptions) is insufficient as an
earth ground according to paragraph 250.53(D)(2). Bud denied what
that paragraph said in 2002 - and still denies it today.

Brian and Joseph McPartland in their book "National Electrical Code
Handbook" (at least 25 editions) are even blunter in contradicting the
electrically naive Bud:
For many years now, ... the water pipe is the least acceptable electrode and is the only one that may never be
used by itself as the sold electrode. It must always be supplemented by a least one "additional" grounding
electrode. Any one of the other grounding electrodes ... is acceptable as the sole grounding electrode, by
itself.

Saltydog and so many other posters are correct. Up until 1978, a
water pipe was the best earthing electrode. Then code changed. Cold
water pipe electrode is now the least acceptable earth ground. Code
changed decades ago. It required nasty Bud to read paragraph 250.53(D)
(2) rather than attack others to promote his scam products..

Whereas a cold water pipe meets the definition of an earthing
electrode, it is the only electrode so insufficient as to require any
other earthing electrode. After 25 years, Bud still cannot learn that
a cold water pipe is insufficient earthing. That would requirement
him to learn facts rather than post insults.

In most cases, if the water pipe ground is the only earth ground,
then earthing is insufficient for surge protection. Critical to
protection is a short connection to earth - ie 'less than 10 feet'
with no sharp wire bends and other requirements. Even pipe solder
joints can compromise that earth ground. Pipe grounds are
insufficient when too far away. Just another reason why most pre-1990
buildings need earthing upgrades. Do not have sufficient earthing
also for surge protection. Ground alone does not avert more ‘dead
canaries’. But a short connection to single point ground is essential
– one requirement - to appliance protection. Which again contradicts
nasty Bud's lies and says why his products will not avert the OP's
damage..

HeyBub wrote:
bud-- wrote:
The NEC Handbook says "The requirement to supplement the metal water
pipe is based on the practice of using plastic pipe for replacement
when the original metal water pipe fails."
Water pipe is a good electrode. The problem is it may be replaced by
plastic in the future.


Contrary to what seems to be a common internet opinion, water pipe
(metal, 10 ft...) is *REQUIRED* to be a grounding electrode. Read the
NEC (relevant quotes provided).

My house, built in the '60s, has galvanized iron pipe throughout. It's built
on a slab with all pipes in the walls and the attic.

Eventually, the iron pipe exits the wall to connect to the city water
system. As the pipe leaves the house, it encounters a valve, then, on the
other side of the valve, plastic to the city.

There is no connection between any of my water pipes and the earth -- unless
you count the conductivity of the water itself.


I have consistently limited comments to "metal, 10ft..." which obviously
does not apply to your house.

On the other hand what you wrote: "the purpose of attaching the
electrical ground to a water pipe is not to ground the electrical
system, it's to ground the plumbing system" is not true in general. And
you reinforced Salty, who appears to not want metal water service pipes
to be used for system earthing.

Limiting your post to plastic water service pipe would have solved the
problem.

--
bud--

wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:41:28 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:33:05 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:19:21 -0500, bud--
wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet code
for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding rod at
the service entrance.
The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is not to
ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing system.

I really don't understand where this nonsense comes from.

Please consult with the building department inspector in any city in
the U.S.
Please consult with the National Electrical Code
"250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as
described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each
building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system."

"250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water
pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."

A water pipe in the ground for 10 ft (described by 250.52(A)(1)) MUST be
used as a grounding electrode (by 250.50).

This has been in the NEC far longer than any of the code books I have
(oldest one is 1968). I think it goes back to 1777 - one of the first
things the Continental Congress did

Grounding your electrical system via the water service pipe alone does
not meet code anywhere that I have ever heard of.
It meets the code in my house. It was code compliant when installed so
it is compliant now. That probably applies to millions of houses.

Yes, you must bond
the water service pipe to the electrical system for safety,
As I wrote, bonding rules are different. You only "bond" if the water
service pipe is not used as a grounding electrode. See above - if a
metal pipe is 10 ft in the earth it is *REQUIRED* to be used as a
grounding electrode.

Don't confuse bonding with use as a grounding electrode.

but a
separate earth ground for the system is ALWAYS required to meet code.

A "supplemental" electrode was not *always* required until the 1978 NEC.

It is "supplemental" because it supplements the main electrode - the
water pipe. Ground rods were commonly used - they are close to a joke. A
water pipe is far better.

My house had the service upgraded before 1978 and does not have a
"supplemental" electrode. It is code compliant.

The NEC Handbook says "The requirement to supplement the metal water
pipe is based on the practice of using plastic pipe for replacement when
the original metal water pipe fails."
Water pipe is a good electrode. The problem is it may be replaced by
plastic in the future.


Contrary to what seems to be a common internet opinion, water pipe
(metal, 10 ft...) is *REQUIRED* to be a grounding electrode. Read the
NEC (relevant quotes provided).
You are misunderstanding what you are reading, Bud.
Perhaps you could explain.

The relevant code was provided and is perfectly clear. If it meets the
description in 250.52(A)(1) (10 ft metal in the ground) it MUST be used
as an earthing electrode (250.50).


But cannot be used as the SOLE earthing electrode.

It is the sole earthing electrode in my code compliant house.

I said in both posts that a "supplemental" electrode is required for all
new services since the 1978 NEC (and some before then).

For good reason.

The good reason is, repeating from the NEC Handbook, "The requirement to
supplement the metal water pipe is based on the practice of using
plastic pipe for replacement when the original metal water pipe fails.
This leaves the system without a grounding electrode unless a
supplementary electrode is provided." A water pipe electrode is far
better than the ground rods that were used as "supplementary"
electrodes. Ground rods are there in case the metal water pipe
disappears. (Fortunately ground rods are not likely to be used in new
construction.)


The water service inlet pipe, if it meets the specs, must absolutely
be connected to the grid, but it does not qualify by itself as THE
earthing ground for the system.


You said that the water pipe was not to be used as an earthing
electrode. "Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the
grounding system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not
meet code for that use."

In fact a water service pipe (metal, 10 ft...) has been required for a
very long time to be an earthing electrode. It is clear from the NEC
quotes provided. And I have always said *an* electrode, not *the*
electrode. It is connected as an earthing electrode with a "grounding
electrode conductor" using specific rules.

If the water pipe is not metal, 10 ft... it is not required to be used
as an earthing electrode and then is "bonded for safety" under specific
bonding rules.

--
bud--

westom wrote:
On Sep 24, 1:41 pm, bud-- wrote:
One of w_tom, akawestom's, rants was that not only was a water service
pipe not required to be used as a earthing electrode, it must absolutely
not be used as an earthing electrode.

He was exposed as a repeated liar. So Bud must misrepresent what I
said so as to insult. Bud is a sales promoter of scam products. He
will not even admit to promoting his company products. He lies about
what I posted because I identified him as unethical.

The village idiot appears to be in a frenzy.

As snotty posted, w is "a grade-A usenet nutball". But he has other
fetishes than the one I-dare-not-name.


So many including Saltydog and HeyBub are now repeating what I
accurately posted so many years ago.

Salty said water pipes are not to be used as an earthing electrode. That
is indeed what the village idiot has said repeatedly in the past. (Not
obvious that Hey agrees.)

The wisdom of w:
"connections to water pipes are only for removing electricity"
"water pipe is no longer acceptable as an earth ground"
"water pipes are not intended primarily for electrical earthing -
therefore water pipes are no longer sufficient for earthing"

And was attacked by Bud because
that is what a sales promoter does.

Poor w has to lie about others because what he says is bullcrap.

w has been "attacked" on this subject by numerous other people,
including at least 3 other electricians and another electrical engineer.

In one thread w provided more of his code interpretation on earthing,
which were almost all bizarrely wrong:
http://tinyurl.com/376yau8
Among those "attacking" w in that thread were Doug Miller and RBM.


Brian and Joseph McPartland in their book "National Electrical Code
Handbook" (at least 25 editions) are even blunter in contradicting the
electrically naive Bud:

Sorry, you misrepresent so many sources I don't trust your quotes.


Saltydog and so many other posters are correct. Up until 1978, a
water pipe was the best earthing electrode. Then code changed. Cold
water pipe electrode is now the least acceptable earth ground.

Incredible. A code change - and then the "best earthing electrode"
becomes the least acceptable.

Water service pipes, particularly a metal municipal water system, are
easily the best earthing electrode available at a house. Ground rods,
which w was pushing in the past, are about the worst earthing electrode
you can use. That is likely why the code requires including a "concrete
encased electrode" for most new construction.

And Salty probably doesn't agree.

Code
changed decades ago. It required nasty Bud to read paragraph 250.53(D)
(2) rather than attack others to promote his scam products..

I have, of course, been aware of the code requirement since it was added.

I said in every post in this thread that a "supplemental" electrode is
required for a water pipe. Note that it "supplements" the water pipe,
which is the best electrode. It is needed if the water pipe is changed
to plastic in the future.

The product w falsely alleges I promote that I-dare-not-name is
irrelevant to the discussion, but it is such a fetish for poor w. Just
like water pipe earthing.


Whereas a cold water pipe meets the definition of an earthing
electrode, it is the only electrode so insufficient as to require any
other earthing electrode.

A water pipe (metal, 10 ft...) is the only electrode that is likely to
be in a house that is *required* to be used as an earthing electrode.
Another is generally required to be created - a "concrete encased
electrode".

A metal water service pipe is entirely "sufficient" as long as not
replaced by plastic. There is no reason to believe a "supplemental"
electrode would have been required if some water services were not
becoming plastic.

At least w hasn't said that a water pipe shouldn't be used as an
earthing electrode as he has often said in the past.

Just to be clear, if you have a metal water service pipe are you
required to use it as an earthing electrode?

--
bud--

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:41:38 -0500, bud--
wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
bud-- wrote:
The NEC Handbook says "The requirement to supplement the metal water
pipe is based on the practice of using plastic pipe for replacement
when the original metal water pipe fails."
Water pipe is a good electrode. The problem is it may be replaced by
plastic in the future.


Contrary to what seems to be a common internet opinion, water pipe
(metal, 10 ft...) is *REQUIRED* to be a grounding electrode. Read the
NEC (relevant quotes provided).
My house, built in the '60s, has galvanized iron pipe throughout. It's built
on a slab with all pipes in the walls and the attic.

Eventually, the iron pipe exits the wall to connect to the city water
system. As the pipe leaves the house, it encounters a valve, then, on the
other side of the valve, plastic to the city.

There is no connection between any of my water pipes and the earth -- unless
you count the conductivity of the water itself.

I have consistently limited comments to "metal, 10ft..." which obviously
does not apply to your house.

On the other hand what you wrote: "the purpose of attaching the
electrical ground to a water pipe is not to ground the electrical
system, it's to ground the plumbing system" is not true in general. And
you reinforced Salty, who appears to not want metal water service pipes
to be used for system earthing.


What? You HAVE become westom.

Perhaps you could post something relevant to what is being discussed,
like is a metal water service pipe required to be an earthing electrode?

--
bud--

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:46:57 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:41:28 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:33:05 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:19:21 -0500, bud--
wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the grounding
system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not meet code
for that use. For that you need a properly installed grounding rod at
the service entrance.
The purpose of attaching the electrical ground to a water pipe is not to
ground the electrical system, it's to ground the plumbing system.

I really don't understand where this nonsense comes from.

Please consult with the building department inspector in any city in
the U.S.
Please consult with the National Electrical Code
"250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as
described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each
building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system."

"250.52(A)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water
pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."

A water pipe in the ground for 10 ft (described by 250.52(A)(1)) MUST be
used as a grounding electrode (by 250.50).

This has been in the NEC far longer than any of the code books I have
(oldest one is 1968). I think it goes back to 1777 - one of the first
things the Continental Congress did

Grounding your electrical system via the water service pipe alone does
not meet code anywhere that I have ever heard of.
It meets the code in my house. It was code compliant when installed so
it is compliant now. That probably applies to millions of houses.

Yes, you must bond
the water service pipe to the electrical system for safety,
As I wrote, bonding rules are different. You only "bond" if the water
service pipe is not used as a grounding electrode. See above - if a
metal pipe is 10 ft in the earth it is *REQUIRED* to be used as a
grounding electrode.

Don't confuse bonding with use as a grounding electrode.

but a
separate earth ground for the system is ALWAYS required to meet code.

A "supplemental" electrode was not *always* required until the 1978 NEC.

It is "supplemental" because it supplements the main electrode - the
water pipe. Ground rods were commonly used - they are close to a joke. A
water pipe is far better.

My house had the service upgraded before 1978 and does not have a
"supplemental" electrode. It is code compliant.

The NEC Handbook says "The requirement to supplement the metal water
pipe is based on the practice of using plastic pipe for replacement when
the original metal water pipe fails."
Water pipe is a good electrode. The problem is it may be replaced by
plastic in the future.


Contrary to what seems to be a common internet opinion, water pipe
(metal, 10 ft...) is *REQUIRED* to be a grounding electrode. Read the
NEC (relevant quotes provided).
You are misunderstanding what you are reading, Bud.
Perhaps you could explain.

The relevant code was provided and is perfectly clear. If it meets the
description in 250.52(A)(1) (10 ft metal in the ground) it MUST be used
as an earthing electrode (250.50).

But cannot be used as the SOLE earthing electrode.
It is the sole earthing electrode in my code compliant house.

I said in both posts that a "supplemental" electrode is required for all
new services since the 1978 NEC (and some before then).

For good reason.
The good reason is, repeating from the NEC Handbook, "The requirement to
supplement the metal water pipe is based on the practice of using
plastic pipe for replacement when the original metal water pipe fails.
This leaves the system without a grounding electrode unless a
supplementary electrode is provided." A water pipe electrode is far
better than the ground rods that were used as "supplementary"
electrodes. Ground rods are there in case the metal water pipe
disappears. (Fortunately ground rods are not likely to be used in new
construction.)

The water service inlet pipe, if it meets the specs, must absolutely
be connected to the grid, but it does not qualify by itself as THE
earthing ground for the system.

You said that the water pipe was not to be used as an earthing
electrode. "Although you always want the cold water line BONDED to the
grounding system, it should never be THE ground. In fact, it does not
meet code for that use."

In fact a water service pipe (metal, 10 ft...) has been required for a
very long time to be an earthing electrode. It is clear from the NEC
quotes provided. And I have always said *an* electrode, not *the*
electrode. It is connected as an earthing electrode with a "grounding
electrode conductor" using specific rules.

If the water pipe is not metal, 10 ft... it is not required to be used
as an earthing electrode and then is "bonded for safety" under specific
bonding rules.

Go stand in the pedantic corner with w_tom


All I know is what I read.

--
bud--

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:59:25 -0500, bud--
wrote:

westom wrote:
On Sep 24, 1:41 pm, bud-- wrote:
One of w_tom, akawestom's, rants was that not only was a water service
pipe not required to be used as a earthing electrode, it must absolutely
not be used as an earthing electrode.
He was exposed as a repeated liar. So Bud must misrepresent what I
said so as to insult. Bud is a sales promoter of scam products. He
will not even admit to promoting his company products. He lies about
what I posted because I identified him as unethical.
The village idiot appears to be in a frenzy.

As snotty posted, w is "a grade-A usenet nutball". But he has other
fetishes than the one I-dare-not-name.

So many including Saltydog and HeyBub are now repeating what I
accurately posted so many years ago.
Salty said water pipes are not to be used as an earthing electrode.

Nope. Salty never said that.


I have seen 2 other intelligent people (that excludes w) argue at length
that metal water service pipes are absolutely not to be used as earthing
electrodes. I get tired of that internet misinformation.

Sorry w - It looks like nobody agrees with you.

--
bud--

On Sep 25, 8:46*pm, wrote:
What? You HAVE becomewestom.

bud posts insults constantly, in part, because others will believe
the insults rather than technical facts. If he insults, then others
will forget that I said years ago "the water pipe is the least
acceptable electrode and is the only one that may never be used by
itself as the sold electrode.". bud is lying to misrepresent me. He
must do that to divert attention from him. He hopes everyone will
ignore that he cannot even comprehend paragraph 250.53(D)(2).

Years ago, bud insisted the word 'supplemental' meants another
electrodes is not required. He could not understand the meaning of
supplemental - which means the water pipe electrode is
insufficient. As paragraph 250.53(D)(2) says and as I have posted
for years, a water pipe electrode is the only earthing electrode that
is insufficient. To confuse you, he now says things I never said.
Posting insults and lying is bud's nature.

He also denies to promoting his company products in newsgroups.
Another example of his ethics. Meanwhile paragraph 250.53(D)(2) was
quoted to him years ago. He lies to deny that. And he again denies
obvious reality in this thread. bud was always a nasty and unethical
person. He never changed. Again denies water pipe is not sufficient
for earth ground.

westom wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:46 pm, wrote:
What? You HAVE becomewestom.

bud posts insults constantly,

w is insulted by reality, which is what I provide.

in part, because others will believe
the insults rather than technical facts.

As is obvious from threads on the device-I-dare-not-name, w thinks if
he repeats his beliefs often enough others will believe. I provide
reliable sources.

If he insults, then others
will forget that I said years ago

I want people to remember what you have said. I even quote what you said:

"connections to water pipes are only for removing electricity"
"water pipe is no longer acceptable as an earth ground"
"water pipes are not intended primarily for electrical earthing -
therefore water pipes are no longer sufficient for earthing"


Years ago, bud insisted the word 'supplemental' meants another
electrodes is not required.

One of w's many hallucinations.
Provide the quote.

He could not understand the meaning of
supplemental - which means the water pipe electrode is
insufficient.

w thinks that a ground rod - resistance to earth of maybe 25 ohms - is
superior to a metal water supply system - resistance to earth of maybe 3
ohms.

a water pipe electrode is the only earthing electrode that
is insufficient.

A water pipe is the only electrode that is likely to be in a house that
is *required* to be used as an earthing electrode.

To confuse you, he now says things I never said.

More hallucinations from w.
What you have said is readily available on google.


He also denies to promoting his company products in newsgroups.

w is so pathetic.

Still not answered:
If you have a metal water service pipe are you required to use it as an
earthing electrode?

Can't answer simple questions about earthing electrodes either?

--
bud--

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:13:55 -0500, bud--
wrote:

Sorry w - It looks like nobody agrees with you.

Although it is required that the water pipe must ALSO be used if
present, there can be a problem in doing so. All grounds are not
created equal, and when you have multiple ground electrodes, you
introduce the potential for differing potentials. (That is the main
reason for the newest methods used in new construction.)

Ground loops.

In an industrial plant you may have even more electrodes. In general it
doesn't matter because the electrodes are combined into an "earthing
system" and the power system ground reference is likely at the
neutral-ground bond at the service disconnect, where the earthing system
is connected (in general).

On the other hand, suppose you have a system earthed only with a ground
rod, and it has a NEC allowed (and very good) resistance to earth of 10
ohms. If you have a strong surge coming in on the power wires that
produces a current to earth of 1000A, the power system "ground" is
10,000V above absolute earth potential. Most of the voltage drop away
from the ground rod is next to the rod. The power ground is 7,000V or
more above the earth potential 3 ft or more from the rod. I don't see
how additional electrodes are a problem. Apparently the people who write
the code don't either.


One problem THAT may cause is problems with sensitive electronics,
like the control boards in modern electronics.

The NIST guide on surges, which has been linked in many threads,
suggests that the major cause of equipment damage is high voltage
between power and phone/cable wires - probably about the same as what
you said.

That's why the ground reference for an entering cable system must be
near the same as the power ground reference - which requires connecting
the cable entry ground block with a *short* wire to the earthing system
near the service disconnect. And similarly the phone entry protector.

Much of the protection is not that everything is at "earth potential",
but that everything is at approximately the same potential.


So, now this thread has come full circle. G


I'm getting too old to look.

--
bud--

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:41:07 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:54:22 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:13:55 -0500, bud--
wrote:

Sorry w - It looks like nobody agrees with you.

Although it is required that the water pipe must ALSO be used if
present, there can be a problem in doing so. All grounds are not
created equal, and when you have multiple ground electrodes, you
introduce the potential for differing potentials. (That is the main
reason for the newest methods used in new construction.)

Ground loops.

In an industrial plant you may have even more electrodes. In general it
doesn't matter because the electrodes are combined into an "earthing
system" and the power system ground reference is likely at the
neutral-ground bond at the service disconnect, where the earthing system
is connected (in general).

On the other hand, suppose you have a system earthed only with a ground
rod, and it has a NEC allowed (and very good) resistance to earth of 10
ohms. If you have a strong surge coming in on the power wires that
produces a current to earth of 1000A, the power system "ground" is
10,000V above absolute earth potential. Most of the voltage drop away
from the ground rod is next to the rod. The power ground is 7,000V or
more above the earth potential 3 ft or more from the rod. I don't see
how additional electrodes are a problem. Apparently the people who write
the code don't either.


One problem THAT may cause is problems with sensitive electronics,
like the control boards in modern electronics.

The NIST guide on surges, which has been linked in many threads,
suggests that the major cause of equipment damage is high voltage
between power and phone/cable wires - probably about the same as what
you said.

That's why the ground reference for an entering cable system must be
near the same as the power ground reference - which requires connecting
the cable entry ground block with a *short* wire to the earthing system
near the service disconnect. And similarly the phone entry protector.

Much of the protection is not that everything is at "earth potential",
but that everything is at approximately the same potential.


So, now this thread has come full circle. G


I'm getting too old to look.


Trust me... ground loops caused by mutiple grounding points can be a
very real problem for sensitive electronics.

Particulalry if it's designed by morons. "Ground loops" should not cause
problems.

The NEC and NIST are preoccupied with human safety and fire
prevention, not how sensitive electronics function. They tend to be a
bit behind the curve in that area.

....as they should be. Their charter *IS* safety.