What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom (and
therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a calculus based
pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of the bottom curve
into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break it
into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus volume
calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not geometry)
pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume calculators
(which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm
* http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
* http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
* http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...-Calculate.htm
* http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
* http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
* http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
* http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

LM wrote:
....

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?

Well, I guess that characterization would ignore a fairly size of
population to "nobody"...

Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

Octave comes to mind as one toolset...

A relatively simple approach would be to use the data to estimate a
quadratic or cubic polynomial which could be integrated analytically.

--

On Jul 17, 5:27*pm, LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom (and
therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a calculus based
pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of the bottom curve
into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break it
into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus volume
calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not geometry)
pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculatorhttp://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculatorhttp://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-Calculator_program_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume calculators
(which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...tors/pool-volu...
*http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
*http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
*http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...lume-Calculate...
*http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
*http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
*http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
*http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

Buy yourself a water meter. Fill the pool through the water meter.
Write the number down. Guaranteed to be exactly correct

On Jul 17, 12:55*pm, harry wrote:

Buy yourself a water meter. *Fill the pool through the water meter.
Write the number down. *Guaranteed to be exactly correct

Depends on the meter.

My pool also gets deep fast. I just divided it into thirds, which was
close enough to satisfy me.

I suspect the "standard" method is considered "close enough" in the
pool industry.
-----

- gpsman

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT), gpsman wrote:
I suspect the "standard" method is considered "close enough" in the
pool industry.

A pool professional told me almost everyone underreports their pool volume
because they forgot to take into account the appreciable volume of water in
the plumbing and filters and solar equipment.

He said the rule of thumb for the amount of water locked up in all that
plumbing is equal to the last two inches. So, for example, if you have the
standard 60x15 foot rectangular pool, your last two inches are about 1,000
gallons.

Whatever calculation you come up with, add 1,000 gallons for the water in
the plumbing, assuming that pool pro knew his stuff.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:03:40 +0000 (UTC), Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT), gpsman wrote:
I suspect the "standard" method is considered "close enough" in the
pool industry.

A pool professional told me almost everyone underreports their pool volume
because they forgot to take into account the appreciable volume of water in
the plumbing and filters and solar equipment.

He said the rule of thumb for the amount of water locked up in all that
plumbing is equal to the last two inches. So, for example, if you have the
standard 60x15 foot rectangular pool, your last two inches are about 1,000
gallons.

Whatever calculation you come up with, add 1,000 gallons for the water in
the plumbing, assuming that pool pro knew his stuff.

A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot. Unless you have some *seriously*
long pipes the "pro" is full of BS. The error in measurement of the bottom
geometry would swamp this.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:48:43 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot.

That's a good start for us to check the rule of thumb then for our own
pool.

We also need to know:
+ How much water is in a typical 12-foot long 4-foot wide solar panel?
+ How many "loops" are there from a pump to the edge of the pool?
+ How much additional plumbing is attributed to the length of the pool?

My dozen solar panels are at least 100 feet away from the pool equipment.
The pool is 50 feet long with the 3 pool pumps 25 feet from one end.
There are three 1.5 HP pumps moving water through the pool equipment.

The pool has about 15 pop-up self cleaners controlled by one pump, the two
sets of jets in the spa are controlled by another pump, and the filtration
system is controlled by yet another pump. The filter itself is a roundish
black cartridge about as big as an office refrigerator.

I will do some calculations and report back to see if they make sense but
it would be helpful to know what the "rule of thumb" is for plumbing:

Q: How much water is in a typical 12-foot by 4-foot solar panel?
Q: How many loops does a cleaner, filter, and double-jet spa pipes make?
Q: How much additional plumbing is "below" the pool length itself?

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:48:43 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot.

Trying to verify that as it's one of the most important figures in
calculating the residual liquid in pool plumbing systems.

Let's calculate the volume of a one foot length of plastic schedule 40
white (painted black) pool pipe.

The formula for the volume of a pipe is pi times radius squared, times the
length.

Pi = 3.14
Length is 1 foot
The ID of a 2" OD PVC schedule 40 pipe is apparently 2.067" so let's call
that 2.1" which makes the ID half that which (to one significant figure) is
1.0 inches.
http://www.snapfour.com/pdf/Table_38-39.pdf

The volume of a one-foot length of pipe is:
3.14 x 1.0^2 inches x 12 inches = 38 cubic inches = 0.02 cubic feet

If we assume 7.5 gallons of water is one cubic foot, that's about 0.2
gallons per linear foot of pipe, not two gallons! My mistake.

I'll re do all the match in a prior post to correct by 1/10th!

On Jul 17, 11:27*am, LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom (and
therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a calculus based
pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of the bottom curve
into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break it
into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus volume
calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not geometry)
pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculatorhttp://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculatorhttp://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-Calculator_program_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume calculators
(which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...tors/pool-volu...
*http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
*http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
*http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...lume-Calculate...
*http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
*http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
*http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
*http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

Scientists for years have used graph paper for estimating. Here's how
it works: draw a side view of your structure on graph paper using
physical measurements that are convenient. Cut out the outline of the
view with scissors and weigh it. The scientist will use a sensitive
microbalance in most cases which you may not have access to. So the
variation here is to use a piece of scrap sheet metal or plywod,
particle board, or such, with a scribed-on grid, lay out the side
view, cut it out and weigh it on any convenient scale. Many retail
places have scales the public uses for produce, and such...talk to the
manager. Even a bathroom scale could work. Knowing the weight of a
measured piece of the pattern material, the area of the side view is
easily calculated. From there, measurement of the next two sides will
give a decently accurate volume.
For accurate distance measurements I highly recommend one the new
laser measuring tools like the Bosch DLR 165K.
Have fun...

Joe

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:27:32 -0700, LM wrote:

What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.

Never heard of a calculus algorithm?

My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

Try calculating hyroflows of rising tides in a 2500 acre+ mangrove
swamp then. lol
--
Talk about F-Cars - www.ferrarichat.com/forum/member.php?u=89702

In article ,
LM wrote:

What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.

It's reserved for those who are smart enough to not ask such absurd
questions.

"LM" wrote in message
...


But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool,.....

(snip)

Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:11:12 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"LM" wrote in message
...


But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool,.....

(snip)

Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?


Gee......Woudn't that stuff be in the manual?

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:13:57 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:11:12 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"LM" wrote in message
...


But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool,.....

(snip)

Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?


Gee......Woudn't that stuff be in the manual?

Yup, he should go find the manual or even download it. It should have this
information since pools are involved in many civil suits.

--
Thus spake the master programmer:
"Let the programmers be many and the managers few -- then all
will be productive."
-- "The Tao of Programming"


7/18/2010 9:53:15 AM

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:54:10 -0400, Rocinante wrote:
Gee......Woudn't that stuff be in the manual?
Yup, he should go find the manual or even download it.

At first I thought he was joking so I ignored the "get the manual" advice.

But now, with a second person saying this, I must ask how does one "get the
manual" for a pool?

The pool was probably built about ten years ago by the owners at that time.

I've long ago downloaded the manuals for each piece of equipment, each of
which has a brand and a model stamped on it. But how do you download a
manual for the pool itself?

The pool doesn't have a "brand" or a "model" - or does it?

Where do you look for the brand or model or serial number on a pool?

"LM" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:54:10 -0400, Rocinante wrote:
Gee......Woudn't that stuff be in the manual?
Yup, he should go find the manual or even download it.

At first I thought he was joking so I ignored the "get the manual" advice.

But now, with a second person saying this, I must ask how does one "get
the
manual" for a pool?

The pool was probably built about ten years ago by the owners at that
time.

I've long ago downloaded the manuals for each piece of equipment, each of
which has a brand and a model stamped on it. But how do you download a
manual for the pool itself?

The pool doesn't have a "brand" or a "model" - or does it?

Where do you look for the brand or model or serial number on a pool?


Never mind the manual. Please answer the question which frightens you the
most, which is why you're avoiding it:

Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?

This isn't really a calculus problem.

If you have an equation that describes the x-y-z coordinates of the
bottom of the pool, then... you can turn it into a calculus
problem.

What you have to do is your own version of "integration". It sounds
like you've done it part way already by measuring the depth at many
locations.

The only thing you can really do is split the "plan" view of your pool
into smaller areas. Then... measure the average depth for each
individual area. Volume = Summation of all Area*AvgDepth. If
your area calculations are correct and your average depth measurements
are exact, your volume calculation will be exact. Otherwise... you
merely have an approximation.

A lot of pools only vary in depth as you cross from one end of the
pool to the other. ie... they don't vary across the other direction
of the pool. If this is your situation, merely divide the pool into
strips across the pools width. Then apply the above method using
each strip as an area. This would yield pretty good results with very
little effort.

I'm an engineer. I use Calculus for a lot of things and have found it
to be EXTREMELY useful. It is used in just about every industry there
is. When my wife, who does accounting work, was wondering where one
of the formulas she was using came from that is widely used in the
finance industry and has square roots and other things in it.... I
was able to quickly and simply use basic calculus to show her how to
come up with the formula. If you love using your iPhone or any other
cell phone, fancy or not..... I'd venture to say that.... you
wouldn't have that phone if calculus (or something similar) had never
been invented. Heck... calculus is even used to figure out the most
efficient way to package items together for shipping.

Dan :-)

On 7/17/2010 12:27 PM, LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.

Really? that would be big news to a lot of folks who use calculus in
their work.

My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom (and
therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a calculus based
pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of the bottom curve
into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break it
into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus volume
calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not geometry)
pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume calculators
(which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm
* http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
* http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
* http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...-Calculate.htm
* http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
* http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
* http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
* http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:27:32 -0700, LM wrote:
Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

Neither of which is freeware that performs pool volume calculations.

The first is trial ware and it doesn't do pool volumes with slopes.

The second is a cylindrical volume calculator.

What you need does not exist.

LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom
(and therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a
calculus based pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of
the bottom curve into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break
it into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus
volume calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom
curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not
geometry) pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator
http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume
calculators (which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm
* http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
* http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
*
http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...-Calculate.htm
* http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
* http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
* http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
* http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

You have a nail and are looking for a screwdriver.

Calculus doesn't deal with random measurements. You must first write the
equation for the curve of the bottom.

THEN you can integrate over the range.

If you don't want to do that, look up MONTE CARLO METHOD.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:52:09 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote:

LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom
(and therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a
calculus based pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of
the bottom curve into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break
it into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus
volume calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom
curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not
geometry) pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator
http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume
calculators (which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm
* http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
* http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
*
http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...-Calculate.htm
* http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
* http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
* http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
* http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

You have a nail and are looking for a screwdriver.

Calculus doesn't deal with random measurements. You must first write the
equation for the curve of the bottom.

THEN you can integrate over the range.

If you don't want to do that, look up MONTE CARLO METHOD.

Pick a number, any number.