What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom (and
therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a calculus based
pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of the bottom curve
into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break it
into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus volume
calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not geometry)
pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume calculators
(which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm
* http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
* http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
* http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...-Calculate.htm
* http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
* http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
* http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
* http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

LM wrote:
....

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?

Well, I guess that characterization would ignore a fairly size of
population to "nobody"...

Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

Octave comes to mind as one toolset...

A relatively simple approach would be to use the data to estimate a
quadratic or cubic polynomial which could be integrated analytically.

--

On Jul 17, 5:27*pm, LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom (and
therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a calculus based
pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of the bottom curve
into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break it
into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus volume
calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not geometry)
pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculatorhttp://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculatorhttp://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-Calculator_program_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume calculators
(which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...tors/pool-volu...
*http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
*http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
*http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...lume-Calculate...
*http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
*http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
*http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
*http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

Buy yourself a water meter. Fill the pool through the water meter.
Write the number down. Guaranteed to be exactly correct

On Jul 17, 11:27*am, LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom (and
therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a calculus based
pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of the bottom curve
into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break it
into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus volume
calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not geometry)
pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculatorhttp://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculatorhttp://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-Calculator_program_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume calculators
(which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...tors/pool-volu...
*http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
*http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
*http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...lume-Calculate...
*http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
*http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
*http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
*http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

Scientists for years have used graph paper for estimating. Here's how
it works: draw a side view of your structure on graph paper using
physical measurements that are convenient. Cut out the outline of the
view with scissors and weigh it. The scientist will use a sensitive
microbalance in most cases which you may not have access to. So the
variation here is to use a piece of scrap sheet metal or plywod,
particle board, or such, with a scribed-on grid, lay out the side
view, cut it out and weigh it on any convenient scale. Many retail
places have scales the public uses for produce, and such...talk to the
manager. Even a bathroom scale could work. Knowing the weight of a
measured piece of the pattern material, the area of the side view is
easily calculated. From there, measurement of the next two sides will
give a decently accurate volume.
For accurate distance measurements I highly recommend one the new
laser measuring tools like the Bosch DLR 165K.
Have fun...

Joe

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:27:32 -0700, LM wrote:

What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.

Never heard of a calculus algorithm?

My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

Try calculating hyroflows of rising tides in a 2500 acre+ mangrove
swamp then. lol
--
Talk about F-Cars - www.ferrarichat.com/forum/member.php?u=89702

In article ,
LM wrote:

What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.

It's reserved for those who are smart enough to not ask such absurd
questions.

"LM" wrote in message
...


But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool,.....

(snip)

Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:11:12 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"LM" wrote in message
...


But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool,.....

(snip)

Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?


Gee......Woudn't that stuff be in the manual?

On Jul 17, 12:55*pm, harry wrote:

Buy yourself a water meter. *Fill the pool through the water meter.
Write the number down. *Guaranteed to be exactly correct

Depends on the meter.

My pool also gets deep fast. I just divided it into thirds, which was
close enough to satisfy me.

I suspect the "standard" method is considered "close enough" in the
pool industry.
-----

- gpsman

This isn't really a calculus problem.

If you have an equation that describes the x-y-z coordinates of the
bottom of the pool, then... you can turn it into a calculus
problem.

What you have to do is your own version of "integration". It sounds
like you've done it part way already by measuring the depth at many
locations.

The only thing you can really do is split the "plan" view of your pool
into smaller areas. Then... measure the average depth for each
individual area. Volume = Summation of all Area*AvgDepth. If
your area calculations are correct and your average depth measurements
are exact, your volume calculation will be exact. Otherwise... you
merely have an approximation.

A lot of pools only vary in depth as you cross from one end of the
pool to the other. ie... they don't vary across the other direction
of the pool. If this is your situation, merely divide the pool into
strips across the pools width. Then apply the above method using
each strip as an area. This would yield pretty good results with very
little effort.

I'm an engineer. I use Calculus for a lot of things and have found it
to be EXTREMELY useful. It is used in just about every industry there
is. When my wife, who does accounting work, was wondering where one
of the formulas she was using came from that is widely used in the
finance industry and has square roots and other things in it.... I
was able to quickly and simply use basic calculus to show her how to
come up with the formula. If you love using your iPhone or any other
cell phone, fancy or not..... I'd venture to say that.... you
wouldn't have that phone if calculus (or something similar) had never
been invented. Heck... calculus is even used to figure out the most
efficient way to package items together for shipping.

Dan :-)

On 7/17/2010 12:27 PM, LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.

Really? that would be big news to a lot of folks who use calculus in
their work.

My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom (and
therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a calculus based
pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of the bottom curve
into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break it
into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus volume
calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not geometry)
pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume calculators
(which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm
* http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
* http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
* http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...-Calculate.htm
* http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
* http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
* http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
* http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

Malcolm Hoar wrote:
In article , LM
wrote:
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the
pool bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration
accurately without geometric simplification?

No. But since you've made the depth measurements in two-foot
increments, just carve up the pool into those two-foot solids.
Calculate the volume of each solid and add 'em all up.

A little tedious but it shouldn't take long.

It's going to be pretty much as accurate as you can get from
the available measurement data.

I found the OP rather surprising. Though to be fair, both my kids (in their
twenties and thirties) would be flumoxed.

Whilst struggling under a motor asking for an 8 mm. socket from them would
challenge them. Asking for a 1/2" Whit or an AF would ensure that they
signed up to the Chattering Classes.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 21:09:45 GMT, (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

In article , LM wrote:
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

No. But since you've made the depth measurements in two-foot
increments, just carve up the pool into those two-foot solids.
Calculate the volume of each solid and add 'em all up.

Enter the depth measurements for each two-foot square into a spreadsheet. Sum
all cells and multiply by the size of the square (four, in this case) and
convert to the unit of choice (times 8 for gallons).

A little tedious but it shouldn't take long.

Not at all. ;-)

It's going to be pretty much as accurate as you can get from
the available measurement data.

Yep. As another poster said, he doesn't have the equation to fit the bottom
of the pool so it's not a calculus problem.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:27:32 -0700, LM wrote:
Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

Neither of which is freeware that performs pool volume calculations.

The first is trial ware and it doesn't do pool volumes with slopes.

The second is a cylindrical volume calculator.

What you need does not exist.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT), gpsman wrote:
I suspect the "standard" method is considered "close enough" in the
pool industry.

A pool professional told me almost everyone underreports their pool volume
because they forgot to take into account the appreciable volume of water in
the plumbing and filters and solar equipment.

He said the rule of thumb for the amount of water locked up in all that
plumbing is equal to the last two inches. So, for example, if you have the
standard 60x15 foot rectangular pool, your last two inches are about 1,000
gallons.

Whatever calculation you come up with, add 1,000 gallons for the water in
the plumbing, assuming that pool pro knew his stuff.

LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom
(and therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a
calculus based pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of
the bottom curve into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break
it into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus
volume calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom
curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not
geometry) pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator
http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume
calculators (which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm
* http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
* http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
*
http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...-Calculate.htm
* http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
* http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
* http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
* http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

You have a nail and are looking for a screwdriver.

Calculus doesn't deal with random measurements. You must first write the
equation for the curve of the bottom.

THEN you can integrate over the range.

If you don't want to do that, look up MONTE CARLO METHOD.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:13:57 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:11:12 -0400, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"LM" wrote in message
...


But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool,.....

(snip)

Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?


Gee......Woudn't that stuff be in the manual?

Yup, he should go find the manual or even download it. It should have this
information since pools are involved in many civil suits.

--
Thus spake the master programmer:
"Let the programmers be many and the managers few -- then all
will be productive."
-- "The Tao of Programming"


7/18/2010 9:53:15 AM

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:03:40 +0000 (UTC), Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT), gpsman wrote:
I suspect the "standard" method is considered "close enough" in the
pool industry.

A pool professional told me almost everyone underreports their pool volume
because they forgot to take into account the appreciable volume of water in
the plumbing and filters and solar equipment.

He said the rule of thumb for the amount of water locked up in all that
plumbing is equal to the last two inches. So, for example, if you have the
standard 60x15 foot rectangular pool, your last two inches are about 1,000
gallons.

Whatever calculation you come up with, add 1,000 gallons for the water in
the plumbing, assuming that pool pro knew his stuff.

A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot. Unless you have some *seriously*
long pipes the "pro" is full of BS. The error in measurement of the bottom
geometry would swamp this.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:52:09 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote:

LM wrote:
What good is calculus if nobody practically uses it.
My pool has an uneven bottom (shallow and deep and varying greatly).

All pool-volume calculators I can find assume a gently sloping bottom
(and therefore use geometric simplifications). I want to try a
calculus based pool volume calculator (that takes the actual shape of
the bottom curve into consideration).

To obtain an accurate pool water volume, I just measured in two dozen
places every few feet the varying depth of an irregularly shaped pool.

I realize, with those numbers, I can draw a side view and then break
it into squares to calculate the volume but there must be a calculus
volume calculator out there that will take the shape of the bottom
curves.

But since this is a common need of every pool owner of an irregularly
shaped pool, I wonder if there is a good freeware calculus (not
geometry) pool volume calculator out there that you recommend.

Googling, I found these two Windows freeware volume applications:
* AD Geometrical calculator
http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=4749
* Volume Calculator
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Volume-...ram_43621.html

And, of course, there are the generic geometric pool-volume
calculators (which all suffer from geometry assumptions):
*
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm
* http://www.poolspa.com/calculator/
* http://www.poolwizard.net/pool-volume/
*
http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swi...-Calculate.htm
* http://www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk/volcalc.htm
* http://www.havuz.org/pool-calculators.htm
* http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/tut...ume-calculator
* http://poolways.com/volume.html

What good is calculus if nobody uses it?
Do know of any volume calculators that will take the shape of the pool
bottom (measured in two-foot increments) into consideration accurately
without geometric simplification?

You have a nail and are looking for a screwdriver.

Calculus doesn't deal with random measurements. You must first write the
equation for the curve of the bottom.

THEN you can integrate over the range.

If you don't want to do that, look up MONTE CARLO METHOD.

Pick a number, any number.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:48:43 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot.

That's a good start for us to check the rule of thumb then for our own
pool.

We also need to know:
+ How much water is in a typical 12-foot long 4-foot wide solar panel?
+ How many "loops" are there from a pump to the edge of the pool?
+ How much additional plumbing is attributed to the length of the pool?

My dozen solar panels are at least 100 feet away from the pool equipment.
The pool is 50 feet long with the 3 pool pumps 25 feet from one end.
There are three 1.5 HP pumps moving water through the pool equipment.

The pool has about 15 pop-up self cleaners controlled by one pump, the two
sets of jets in the spa are controlled by another pump, and the filtration
system is controlled by yet another pump. The filter itself is a roundish
black cartridge about as big as an office refrigerator.

I will do some calculations and report back to see if they make sense but
it would be helpful to know what the "rule of thumb" is for plumbing:

Q: How much water is in a typical 12-foot by 4-foot solar panel?
Q: How many loops does a cleaner, filter, and double-jet spa pipes make?
Q: How much additional plumbing is "below" the pool length itself?

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:54:10 -0400, Rocinante wrote:
Gee......Woudn't that stuff be in the manual?
Yup, he should go find the manual or even download it.

At first I thought he was joking so I ignored the "get the manual" advice.

But now, with a second person saying this, I must ask how does one "get the
manual" for a pool?

The pool was probably built about ten years ago by the owners at that time.

I've long ago downloaded the manuals for each piece of equipment, each of
which has a brand and a model stamped on it. But how do you download a
manual for the pool itself?

The pool doesn't have a "brand" or a "model" - or does it?

Where do you look for the brand or model or serial number on a pool?

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 16:29:51 +0000 (UTC), Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:48:43 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot.

That's a good start for us to check the rule of thumb then for our own
pool.

We also need to know:
+ How much water is in a typical 12-foot long 4-foot wide solar panel?
+ How many "loops" are there from a pump to the edge of the pool?
+ How much additional plumbing is attributed to the length of the pool?

My dozen solar panels are at least 100 feet away from the pool equipment.

That's just stupid. You're wasting a *lot* of energy pumping the water that
far, not to mention the stress on the pumps and lower output.

The pool is 50 feet long with the 3 pool pumps 25 feet from one end.
There are three 1.5 HP pumps moving water through the pool equipment.

....and you're claiming that this is a typical pool? Get real!

sniped more nonsense

In article ,
" wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 16:29:51 +0000 (UTC), Donna Ohl
wrote:

snipped more nonsense

Donna is a troll, krw. She pops in every six months or so. She's pretty
darn good at starting (or in this case attempting to hijack) threads of
several hundred posts. She does this by focusing OCD style on minutia,
responding to every reply with disingenuous but fairly convincing
politeness and gratitude, and asking many dozen follow-up questions.

She starts off posing as smart but ignorant. In the end she writes a
masterpiece dissertation, illustrated by boatloads of photographs, that
makes it clear that she knew 100 times more about the topic than she
pretended to in the beginning. She documents everything with the false
pretense of it "being for the next guy." Her saccharin sweetness is
nauseating, but it ensnares many. Watch and see.

In article ,
(Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

We designed an elaborate
bottle, clicked the button and we had the volume.

any 3D cad program will do that these days.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:58:49 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
Donna is a troll, krw. She pops in every six months or so.

Hi Smitty,

May I ask why you assume that anyone who respond politely, provides data,
asks questions and follows up on them, snaps pictures, posts them to prove
the point, provides all necessary detail, and gives reasonable responses
.... is a troll?

This always amazes me! I put in an entire water heater, documented every
single step, took fifty pictures and posted them, took everyone's advice,
and yet, I get called a troll.

Why do you think responding politely, providing details, and writing up a
summary in the end makes me a troll. I had to change my alias because of
that, and, I am just as polite in my other alias, yet there I don't get
called a troll. I post at least once a day and only on this alias do I get
called a troll. It never ceases to amaze me. (BTW, none of my aliases are
my real name or identity; neither is yours.)

It hurts that being a good nntp net citizen is so disturbing to others that
they can't believe anyone can follow the rules and be polite, responsive,
provide details, and summarize (yes, so others can benefit from the
results).

I'm sorry Smitty Two, but, I am not a troll. I am merely a human being who
wishes to find the answer to my questions. I have higher level degrees; and
I speak and write properly; I respond to people; I ask questions; I
summarize answers; I make phone calls; I download and post manuals; I snap
pictures; and I make mistakes.

I do tend to run on and I do lean heavily toward details, but if you think
anyone who does so is a troll, then I believe you need to re-examine what
the etiquette and proper procedure is for USENET nntp posts.

I follow the correct rules and for some reason, you think that makes me a
troll.

May I ask that you search for any of my posts to show why or how it's a
troll (well, skip the ones that either bearbottoms or hummingbird or
franklin posed as mine ... clearly you can tell from the grammar and
sentence structure that those are not mine).

None of my other aliases get called a troll; yet this one does. I'm just as
polite in every one. Just as detailed. Just as well intentioned.

Please edify me, Smitty, as I'll have to just pop up as another alias just
to get a question answered properly and to edify the recipients of the
summary we all find out together.

Sincerely yours,
the person behind the alias "Donna Ohl"

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:41:00 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
...and you're claiming that this is a typical pool?

I don't really know what a "typical" pool is. Mine seems to calculate (see
details below) at 2,150 gallons locked up in the pool plumbing system.

Maybe I mis-quoted the pool pro. All I really know is he said "my pool" has
thousands of gallons of water locked up in the plumbing.

I don't know how to approximate the plumbing "loops" but I take a stab at
it below and ask that you correct my approach where I err.

Doing the calculations, I get 700 gallons locked up in the solar
"plumbing"; 600 gallons in the pool-cleaner plumbing; 200 gallons in the
spa plumbing; and 650 gallons in the filtration plumbing.

The total is xxx gallons in the plumbing (if the number of loops is
correct).

SOLAR (100 feet away):
- One 2-inch pipe into the ground and one 2-inch return pipe.
- Assume a single loop from the filtration equipment (200 feet).
- Each of the dozen 4-foot panels has a 2-inch pipe on top & bottom.
- So that's 12 x 4' x 2 = ~100 additional feet of 2-inch pipe.
- The little black tubes are 1/4 inch thick over the entire area.
- So that's 1/4" x 4' x 12' = 1 cubic foot per panel.
- 12 panels, at 7.5 gallons a cubic foot is only ~100 gallons.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe is 600 gallons; + 100 heated = 700 gallons.
POP-UP CLEANER:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The short edge of the 50-foot long pool is 25 feet from the equipment.
- So each loop is 75 feet one way, or 150 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the pop-up cleaners.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe is 600 gallons locked up in the cleaners.
SPA:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The spa is nearest the pool equipment so it's only 25' away.
- So each loop is 25 feet one way, or 50 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 100 feet in the spa plumbing.
- Total: 100' of 2" pipe is 200 gallons locked up in the spa pipes.
FILTER:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- There are only two skimmers but I don't know if that affects anything.
- Each loop is 25' to the pool + 50' along the pool so 150 feet long.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the filtration system plumbing.
- The 125 GPM round-end filter ball is two feet in diameter.
- The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * the radius cubed.
- So that's 4/3 * 3.14 * 1.5^3 = about 75 gallons of water.
- The filters inside take up some space so I'll assume 50 gallons.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe plus about 50 gallons in the ball = 650 gallons.

Total amount of water locked up in the pool plumbing (did I err?) is:
- 700 + 600 + 200 + 650 gallons = over 2,000 gallons

I think the pool professional, who said I had a lot of water locked up in
the plumbing, actually under-estimated the amount by 100% simply by taking
the last two inches of water as his estimate.

If I made any assumption errors, please correct as I'm astounded that over
2,000 gallons of water is locked up in the plumbing for my pool!

If you find any descrepancies or find any of my assumptions hard to
believe, I'll be glad to post any requested photograph for you to see the
details (this is for Smitty Two too!).

Signed,
The human behind the alias at the top of the page

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:38:20 -0500, DanG wrote:
2" Schedule 40 pipe holds .1743 gallons/LF.

Hi Dan,

All pipe above ground seems to be schedule 40 white plastic painted black.

I did the math as I was writing the post (as I am prone to do) so I'll
double check the figures and post back. I agree, I used a radius of 1.5
because I first assumed the sphere was 3 feet but then went outside to
measure it at two feet and forgot to update that number. )

The figure of 2 gallons per foot inside the two-inch pipe came from
zzzzz (7/18/2010, 8:48:42 am). I didn't question his math but
using your figure of 2/10ths of a gallon per linear foot will tremendously
change the numbers!

Let me first doublecheck how much fluid is in a linear foot of 2-inch OD
pool plumbing pipe!

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:38:20 -0500, "DanG" wrote:

Donna, I sure am not taking sides or even understand what is going
on. I did read your info that just didn't sound right to me, so I
did a bit of checking.

2" Schedule 40 pipe holds .1743 gallons/LF. This is steel pipe, I
suspect yours is plastic, but won't vary much. My source:
http://www.saginawpipe.com/steel_pipe.htm

Your figure of 300LF of 2" pipe would hold a hair over 52 gallons,
not your reported 600. Plastic and copper pipe hold less water
per foot.


The equation for volume of sphere is

V= 4/3 Pi r*3

That would be 4/3 Pi* R^3 (cubed, not times three)

It's not a sphere, it's a cylinder (which I could have blown completely).

V= Pi * r^2 * l

so for your 2' sphere with a radius of 1'

Where did the 2' sphere come from?'

V= 1.333 x 3.14 x 1
V= 4.1888 cf

V = (3.14 * 1"^2 * 12")/12^3 (which is where my mistake is - I used 12^2)
= .0218 cu. ft.
* 8 = .175 gal

Your number, above, is right even if your calculation is all wet. ;-)


there are about 8 gallons (actually 7.48) in a cubic foot, so
about 32 gallons in
the ball, less for the filter junk.

It sounds to me as if you might need to double check some of your
data.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:48:43 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot.

Trying to verify that as it's one of the most important figures in
calculating the residual liquid in pool plumbing systems.

Let's calculate the volume of a one foot length of plastic schedule 40
white (painted black) pool pipe.

The formula for the volume of a pipe is pi times radius squared, times the
length.

Pi = 3.14
Length is 1 foot
The ID of a 2" OD PVC schedule 40 pipe is apparently 2.067" so let's call
that 2.1" which makes the ID half that which (to one significant figure) is
1.0 inches.
http://www.snapfour.com/pdf/Table_38-39.pdf

The volume of a one-foot length of pipe is:
3.14 x 1.0^2 inches x 12 inches = 38 cubic inches = 0.02 cubic feet

If we assume 7.5 gallons of water is one cubic foot, that's about 0.2
gallons per linear foot of pipe, not two gallons! My mistake.

I'll re do all the match in a prior post to correct by 1/10th!

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:22:44 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Your number, above, is right even if your calculation is all wet. ;-)

(Removing freeware group as not relevant anymore as the calculators we need
don't seem to exist as freeware.)

I re-did the calculations taking Dan's and KRW's corrections into account.

The volume of a one-foot length of pipe is
3.14 x 1.0^2 inches x 12 inches = 38 cubic inches = 0.02 cubic feet

At 7.5 gallons per cubic foot, that's only about 0.2 gallons per linear
foot of pipe, not two gallons! My mistake. I'm off by a factor of 10 too
high (I had used KRW's 2-gallon-per-linear-foot figure without questioning
it.)

SOLAR (100 feet away) = 60 gallons:
- Assume a single loop from the filtration equipment (200 feet).
- The dozen 4-foot-wide panel tops & bottoms add ~100 linear feet.
- Tubes are 1/4" x 4' x 12' = 1 cubic foot per panel (negligable).
- 12 panels at 7.5 gallons a cubic foot is only ~1.6 gallons (ignore).
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe at .2 gallons per foot is only 60 gallons.

POP-UP CLEANER (25 feet away in a 50-foot long pool) = 60 gallons:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The short edge of the 50-foot long pool is 25 feet from the equipment.
- So each loop is 75 feet one way, or 150 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the pop-up cleaners.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe at .2 gallons per foot is only 60 gallons.

SPA (25 feet away) = 20 gallons:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The spa is nearest the pool equipment so it's only 25' away.
- So each loop is 25 feet one way, or 50 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 100 feet in the spa plumbing.
- Total: 100' of 2" pipe is 20 gallons locked up in the spa pipes.

FILTER (25 feet away and 50 feet to the far edge of the pool):
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- There are only two skimmers but I don't know if that affects anything.
- Each loop is 25' to the pool + 50' along the pool so 150 feet long.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the filtration system plumbing.
- The 125 GPM round-end filter sphere on stilts is two feet in diameter.
- The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * radius cubed.
- So that's 4/3 * 3.14 * 1^3 = 4.2 cubic feet inside the filter sphere.
- At 7.5 gallons per cubic foot, that's about 30 gallons in the sphere.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe (60 gallons) + 30 in the sphere = 90 gallons.

Total amount of water locked up in the pool plumbing (did I err?) is:
- 60 + 60 + 20 + 90 gallons = 230 gallons

The top inch of a "typical" pool is our next quest. You can correct me if I
err but I'll assume (for now) a "typical" pool is 20 feet wide by 40 feet
long. For that pool, the last inch is about 500 gallons.

If my math is right, rule of thumb for the pool volume locked in the pipes
is closer to half that, which is roughly the last half inch of water!

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:15:05 +0000 (UTC), Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:22:44 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Your number, above, is right even if your calculation is all wet. ;-)

(Removing freeware group as not relevant anymore as the calculators we need
don't seem to exist as freeware.)

I re-did the calculations taking Dan's and KRW's corrections into account.

The volume of a one-foot length of pipe is
3.14 x 1.0^2 inches x 12 inches = 38 cubic inches = 0.02 cubic feet

At 7.5 gallons per cubic foot, that's only about 0.2 gallons per linear
foot of pipe, not two gallons! My mistake. I'm off by a factor of 10 too
high (I had used KRW's 2-gallon-per-linear-foot figure without questioning
it.)

Yes, I thought 2Gal was way high, but hadn't eaten anything yet. We got back
from brunch and I found the error immediately (144 =/= 12*3). So, the error
was only a factor of twelve.

SOLAR (100 feet away) = 60 gallons:
- Assume a single loop from the filtration equipment (200 feet).
- The dozen 4-foot-wide panel tops & bottoms add ~100 linear feet.
- Tubes are 1/4" x 4' x 12' = 1 cubic foot per panel (negligable).
- 12 panels at 7.5 gallons a cubic foot is only ~1.6 gallons (ignore).
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe at .2 gallons per foot is only 60 gallons.

POP-UP CLEANER (25 feet away in a 50-foot long pool) = 60 gallons:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The short edge of the 50-foot long pool is 25 feet from the equipment.
- So each loop is 75 feet one way, or 150 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the pop-up cleaners.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe at .2 gallons per foot is only 60 gallons.

SPA (25 feet away) = 20 gallons:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The spa is nearest the pool equipment so it's only 25' away.
- So each loop is 25 feet one way, or 50 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 100 feet in the spa plumbing.
- Total: 100' of 2" pipe is 20 gallons locked up in the spa pipes.

FILTER (25 feet away and 50 feet to the far edge of the pool):
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- There are only two skimmers but I don't know if that affects anything.
- Each loop is 25' to the pool + 50' along the pool so 150 feet long.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the filtration system plumbing.
- The 125 GPM round-end filter sphere on stilts is two feet in diameter.
- The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * radius cubed.
- So that's 4/3 * 3.14 * 1^3 = 4.2 cubic feet inside the filter sphere.
- At 7.5 gallons per cubic foot, that's about 30 gallons in the sphere.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe (60 gallons) + 30 in the sphere = 90 gallons.

Total amount of water locked up in the pool plumbing (did I err?) is:
- 60 + 60 + 20 + 90 gallons = 230 gallons

The top inch of a "typical" pool is our next quest. You can correct me if I
err but I'll assume (for now) a "typical" pool is 20 feet wide by 40 feet
long. For that pool, the last inch is about 500 gallons.

If my math is right, rule of thumb for the pool volume locked in the pipes
is closer to half that, which is roughly the last half inch of water!

Which is pretty trivial. ...and your plumbing is *VERY* unusual. Stupid
unusual, in fact.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 16:23:40 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Which is pretty trivial. ...and your plumbing is *VERY* unusual. Stupid
unusual, in fact.

Well, the good news is we have our answer thanks to you and Dan!

There are less than 250 gallons (roughed out) in the plumbing.

Since a 20x40 pool has tens of thousands of gallons in it, the amount of
water in the plumbing amounts to less than the last half inch contains.

Donna, I sure am not taking sides or even understand what is going
on. I did read your info that just didn't sound right to me, so I
did a bit of checking.

2" Schedule 40 pipe holds .1743 gallons/LF. This is steel pipe, I
suspect yours is plastic, but won't vary much. My source:
http://www.saginawpipe.com/steel_pipe.htm

Your figure of 300LF of 2" pipe would hold a hair over 52 gallons,
not your reported 600. Plastic and copper pipe hold less water
per foot.


The equation for volume of sphere is

V= 4/3 Pi r*3
so for your 2' sphere with a radius of 1'
V= 1.333 x 3.14 x 1
V= 4.1888 cf
there are about 8 gallons (actually 7.48) in a cubic foot, so
about 32 gallons in
the ball, less for the filter junk.

It sounds to me as if you might need to double check some of your
data.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
Keep the whole world singing . . .


"Donna Ohl" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:41:00 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz
wrote:
...and you're claiming that this is a typical pool?

I don't really know what a "typical" pool is. Mine seems to
calculate (see
details below) at 2,150 gallons locked up in the pool plumbing
system.

Maybe I mis-quoted the pool pro. All I really know is he said
"my pool" has
thousands of gallons of water locked up in the plumbing.

I don't know how to approximate the plumbing "loops" but I take
a stab at
it below and ask that you correct my approach where I err.

Doing the calculations, I get 700 gallons locked up in the solar
"plumbing"; 600 gallons in the pool-cleaner plumbing; 200
gallons in the
spa plumbing; and 650 gallons in the filtration plumbing.

The total is xxx gallons in the plumbing (if the number of loops
is
correct).

SOLAR (100 feet away):
- One 2-inch pipe into the ground and one 2-inch return pipe.
- Assume a single loop from the filtration equipment (200 feet).
- Each of the dozen 4-foot panels has a 2-inch pipe on top &
bottom.
- So that's 12 x 4' x 2 = ~100 additional feet of 2-inch pipe.
- The little black tubes are 1/4 inch thick over the entire
area.
- So that's 1/4" x 4' x 12' = 1 cubic foot per panel.
- 12 panels, at 7.5 gallons a cubic foot is only ~100 gallons.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe is 600 gallons; + 100 heated = 700
gallons.
POP-UP CLEANER:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The short edge of the 50-foot long pool is 25 feet from the
equipment.
- So each loop is 75 feet one way, or 150 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the pop-up cleaners.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe is 600 gallons locked up in the
cleaners.
SPA:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The spa is nearest the pool equipment so it's only 25' away.
- So each loop is 25 feet one way, or 50 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 100 feet in the spa plumbing.
- Total: 100' of 2" pipe is 200 gallons locked up in the spa
pipes.
FILTER:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- There are only two skimmers but I don't know if that affects
anything.
- Each loop is 25' to the pool + 50' along the pool so 150 feet
long.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the filtration system
plumbing.
- The 125 GPM round-end filter ball is two feet in diameter.
- The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * the radius cubed.
- So that's 4/3 * 3.14 * 1.5^3 = about 75 gallons of water.
- The filters inside take up some space so I'll assume 50
gallons.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe plus about 50 gallons in the ball = 650
gallons.

Total amount of water locked up in the pool plumbing (did I
err?) is:
- 700 + 600 + 200 + 650 gallons = over 2,000 gallons

I think the pool professional, who said I had a lot of water
locked up in
the plumbing, actually under-estimated the amount by 100% simply
by taking
the last two inches of water as his estimate.

If I made any assumption errors, please correct as I'm astounded
that over
2,000 gallons of water is locked up in the plumbing for my pool!

If you find any descrepancies or find any of my assumptions hard
to
believe, I'll be glad to post any requested photograph for you
to see the
details (this is for Smitty Two too!).

Signed,
The human behind the alias at the top of the page

"LM" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:54:10 -0400, Rocinante wrote:
Gee......Woudn't that stuff be in the manual?
Yup, he should go find the manual or even download it.

At first I thought he was joking so I ignored the "get the manual" advice.

But now, with a second person saying this, I must ask how does one "get
the
manual" for a pool?

The pool was probably built about ten years ago by the owners at that
time.

I've long ago downloaded the manuals for each piece of equipment, each of
which has a brand and a model stamped on it. But how do you download a
manual for the pool itself?

The pool doesn't have a "brand" or a "model" - or does it?

Where do you look for the brand or model or serial number on a pool?


Never mind the manual. Please answer the question which frightens you the
most, which is why you're avoiding it:

Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?

On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:04:08 -0400, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?

I followed the advice here, which was to break the pool into short segments
of uniform slope and then just calculate the volume assuming the average of
the depths.

So, at 1-foot increments, I gathered all the data into an OpenOffice
freeware spreadsheet. There were about seventy-five measurements, given the
irregular nature of the floor but I think I have it down to almost the
exact gallon as I took into account everything.

If I went to the best pool calculator I could find (and I tested them
all!), it was off by about a thousand gallons. That's a LOT!
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm

None of the supposed freeware programs worked. One was decidedly not
freeware (their web page was a lie). The other didn't do as advertised.

There are many reasons for wanting to know the gallons in the pool. Due to
our location, we need to get water trucks to fill the pool. Also, we pay
water bills based on percentages of a baseline, the more you go over the
baseline, the more you pay. With judicious juggling of the trucked-in water
and the monthly use of the hose, we can avoid additional charges.

Right now the pool is filled so I don't need the water trucked in, but
that's why I wanted to know how much water is in the pool. The trucks only
carry so much you know (I guess the next question is how many gallons in
the truck, but I assume the water company knows all that.)

"LM" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:04:08 -0400, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs
to
know how much water it takes to fill the pool?

I followed the advice here, which was to break the pool into short
segments
of uniform slope and then just calculate the volume assuming the average
of
the depths.

So, at 1-foot increments, I gathered all the data into an OpenOffice
freeware spreadsheet. There were about seventy-five measurements, given
the
irregular nature of the floor but I think I have it down to almost the
exact gallon as I took into account everything.

If I went to the best pool calculator I could find (and I tested them
all!), it was off by about a thousand gallons. That's a LOT!
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...c/poolcalc.htm

None of the supposed freeware programs worked. One was decidedly not
freeware (their web page was a lie). The other didn't do as advertised.

There are many reasons for wanting to know the gallons in the pool. Due to
our location, we need to get water trucks to fill the pool. Also, we pay
water bills based on percentages of a baseline, the more you go over the
baseline, the more you pay. With judicious juggling of the trucked-in
water
and the monthly use of the hose, we can avoid additional charges.

Right now the pool is filled so I don't need the water trucked in, but
that's why I wanted to know how much water is in the pool. The trucks only
carry so much you know (I guess the next question is how many gallons in
the truck, but I assume the water company knows all that.)



If you have to think about the cost of water, you have no business operating
a pool.

On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 08:03:27 -0700, LM wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:04:08 -0400, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
Why do you imagine that every owner of an irregularly shaped pool needs
to know how much water it takes to fill the pool?

I followed the advice here, which was to break the pool into short
segments of uniform slope and then just calculate the volume assuming
the average of the depths.

So, at 1-foot increments, I gathered all the data into an OpenOffice
freeware spreadsheet. There were about seventy-five measurements, given
the irregular nature of the floor but I think I have it down to almost
the exact gallon as I took into account everything.

If I went to the best pool calculator I could find (and I tested them
all!), it was off by about a thousand gallons. That's a LOT!
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owne...s/pool-volume-
calc/poolcalc.htm

None of the supposed freeware programs worked. One was decidedly not
freeware (their web page was a lie). The other didn't do as advertised.

There are many reasons for wanting to know the gallons in the pool. Due
to our location, we need to get water trucks to fill the pool. Also, we
pay water bills based on percentages of a baseline, the more you go over
the baseline, the more you pay. With judicious juggling of the
trucked-in water and the monthly use of the hose, we can avoid
additional charges.

Right now the pool is filled so I don't need the water trucked in, but
that's why I wanted to know how much water is in the pool. The trucks
only carry so much you know (I guess the next question is how many
gallons in the truck, but I assume the water company knows all that.)

Dear me, I've been watching this thread with interest (disbelief)

As an old civil engineer who had to do earthwork calcs, do a search for
"prismoidal calculations"
first hit on google
http://www.alamo.edu/sac/engtech/CADD/psencik/
Civil_Volume_Calculations.pdf

A 1000 gallons is only a lot when taken as a proportion of the total
volume.

How much does a water truck carry. Depends on the truck. Do they not have
the capacity shown on the truck in the states?

1000 US gallons = 3.79 cu.metres so it is a little less than 4 tons in
weight.
say, quarter of a small tanker or 1/10 of a big tanker.


--
rich