On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT), gpsman wrote:
I suspect the "standard" method is considered "close enough" in the
pool industry.

A pool professional told me almost everyone underreports their pool volume
because they forgot to take into account the appreciable volume of water in
the plumbing and filters and solar equipment.

He said the rule of thumb for the amount of water locked up in all that
plumbing is equal to the last two inches. So, for example, if you have the
standard 60x15 foot rectangular pool, your last two inches are about 1,000
gallons.

Whatever calculation you come up with, add 1,000 gallons for the water in
the plumbing, assuming that pool pro knew his stuff.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:03:40 +0000 (UTC), Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT), gpsman wrote:
I suspect the "standard" method is considered "close enough" in the
pool industry.

A pool professional told me almost everyone underreports their pool volume
because they forgot to take into account the appreciable volume of water in
the plumbing and filters and solar equipment.

He said the rule of thumb for the amount of water locked up in all that
plumbing is equal to the last two inches. So, for example, if you have the
standard 60x15 foot rectangular pool, your last two inches are about 1,000
gallons.

Whatever calculation you come up with, add 1,000 gallons for the water in
the plumbing, assuming that pool pro knew his stuff.

A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot. Unless you have some *seriously*
long pipes the "pro" is full of BS. The error in measurement of the bottom
geometry would swamp this.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:48:43 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot.

That's a good start for us to check the rule of thumb then for our own
pool.

We also need to know:
+ How much water is in a typical 12-foot long 4-foot wide solar panel?
+ How many "loops" are there from a pump to the edge of the pool?
+ How much additional plumbing is attributed to the length of the pool?

My dozen solar panels are at least 100 feet away from the pool equipment.
The pool is 50 feet long with the 3 pool pumps 25 feet from one end.
There are three 1.5 HP pumps moving water through the pool equipment.

The pool has about 15 pop-up self cleaners controlled by one pump, the two
sets of jets in the spa are controlled by another pump, and the filtration
system is controlled by yet another pump. The filter itself is a roundish
black cartridge about as big as an office refrigerator.

I will do some calculations and report back to see if they make sense but
it would be helpful to know what the "rule of thumb" is for plumbing:

Q: How much water is in a typical 12-foot by 4-foot solar panel?
Q: How many loops does a cleaner, filter, and double-jet spa pipes make?
Q: How much additional plumbing is "below" the pool length itself?

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 16:29:51 +0000 (UTC), Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:48:43 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot.

That's a good start for us to check the rule of thumb then for our own
pool.

We also need to know:
+ How much water is in a typical 12-foot long 4-foot wide solar panel?
+ How many "loops" are there from a pump to the edge of the pool?
+ How much additional plumbing is attributed to the length of the pool?

My dozen solar panels are at least 100 feet away from the pool equipment.

That's just stupid. You're wasting a *lot* of energy pumping the water that
far, not to mention the stress on the pumps and lower output.

The pool is 50 feet long with the 3 pool pumps 25 feet from one end.
There are three 1.5 HP pumps moving water through the pool equipment.

....and you're claiming that this is a typical pool? Get real!

sniped more nonsense

In article ,
" wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 16:29:51 +0000 (UTC), Donna Ohl
wrote:

snipped more nonsense

Donna is a troll, krw. She pops in every six months or so. She's pretty
darn good at starting (or in this case attempting to hijack) threads of
several hundred posts. She does this by focusing OCD style on minutia,
responding to every reply with disingenuous but fairly convincing
politeness and gratitude, and asking many dozen follow-up questions.

She starts off posing as smart but ignorant. In the end she writes a
masterpiece dissertation, illustrated by boatloads of photographs, that
makes it clear that she knew 100 times more about the topic than she
pretended to in the beginning. She documents everything with the false
pretense of it "being for the next guy." Her saccharin sweetness is
nauseating, but it ensnares many. Watch and see.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:58:49 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
Donna is a troll, krw. She pops in every six months or so.

Hi Smitty,

May I ask why you assume that anyone who respond politely, provides data,
asks questions and follows up on them, snaps pictures, posts them to prove
the point, provides all necessary detail, and gives reasonable responses
.... is a troll?

This always amazes me! I put in an entire water heater, documented every
single step, took fifty pictures and posted them, took everyone's advice,
and yet, I get called a troll.

Why do you think responding politely, providing details, and writing up a
summary in the end makes me a troll. I had to change my alias because of
that, and, I am just as polite in my other alias, yet there I don't get
called a troll. I post at least once a day and only on this alias do I get
called a troll. It never ceases to amaze me. (BTW, none of my aliases are
my real name or identity; neither is yours.)

It hurts that being a good nntp net citizen is so disturbing to others that
they can't believe anyone can follow the rules and be polite, responsive,
provide details, and summarize (yes, so others can benefit from the
results).

I'm sorry Smitty Two, but, I am not a troll. I am merely a human being who
wishes to find the answer to my questions. I have higher level degrees; and
I speak and write properly; I respond to people; I ask questions; I
summarize answers; I make phone calls; I download and post manuals; I snap
pictures; and I make mistakes.

I do tend to run on and I do lean heavily toward details, but if you think
anyone who does so is a troll, then I believe you need to re-examine what
the etiquette and proper procedure is for USENET nntp posts.

I follow the correct rules and for some reason, you think that makes me a
troll.

May I ask that you search for any of my posts to show why or how it's a
troll (well, skip the ones that either bearbottoms or hummingbird or
franklin posed as mine ... clearly you can tell from the grammar and
sentence structure that those are not mine).

None of my other aliases get called a troll; yet this one does. I'm just as
polite in every one. Just as detailed. Just as well intentioned.

Please edify me, Smitty, as I'll have to just pop up as another alias just
to get a question answered properly and to edify the recipients of the
summary we all find out together.

Sincerely yours,
the person behind the alias "Donna Ohl"

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:41:00 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
...and you're claiming that this is a typical pool?

I don't really know what a "typical" pool is. Mine seems to calculate (see
details below) at 2,150 gallons locked up in the pool plumbing system.

Maybe I mis-quoted the pool pro. All I really know is he said "my pool" has
thousands of gallons of water locked up in the plumbing.

I don't know how to approximate the plumbing "loops" but I take a stab at
it below and ask that you correct my approach where I err.

Doing the calculations, I get 700 gallons locked up in the solar
"plumbing"; 600 gallons in the pool-cleaner plumbing; 200 gallons in the
spa plumbing; and 650 gallons in the filtration plumbing.

The total is xxx gallons in the plumbing (if the number of loops is
correct).

SOLAR (100 feet away):
- One 2-inch pipe into the ground and one 2-inch return pipe.
- Assume a single loop from the filtration equipment (200 feet).
- Each of the dozen 4-foot panels has a 2-inch pipe on top & bottom.
- So that's 12 x 4' x 2 = ~100 additional feet of 2-inch pipe.
- The little black tubes are 1/4 inch thick over the entire area.
- So that's 1/4" x 4' x 12' = 1 cubic foot per panel.
- 12 panels, at 7.5 gallons a cubic foot is only ~100 gallons.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe is 600 gallons; + 100 heated = 700 gallons.
POP-UP CLEANER:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The short edge of the 50-foot long pool is 25 feet from the equipment.
- So each loop is 75 feet one way, or 150 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the pop-up cleaners.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe is 600 gallons locked up in the cleaners.
SPA:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The spa is nearest the pool equipment so it's only 25' away.
- So each loop is 25 feet one way, or 50 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 100 feet in the spa plumbing.
- Total: 100' of 2" pipe is 200 gallons locked up in the spa pipes.
FILTER:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- There are only two skimmers but I don't know if that affects anything.
- Each loop is 25' to the pool + 50' along the pool so 150 feet long.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the filtration system plumbing.
- The 125 GPM round-end filter ball is two feet in diameter.
- The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * the radius cubed.
- So that's 4/3 * 3.14 * 1.5^3 = about 75 gallons of water.
- The filters inside take up some space so I'll assume 50 gallons.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe plus about 50 gallons in the ball = 650 gallons.

Total amount of water locked up in the pool plumbing (did I err?) is:
- 700 + 600 + 200 + 650 gallons = over 2,000 gallons

I think the pool professional, who said I had a lot of water locked up in
the plumbing, actually under-estimated the amount by 100% simply by taking
the last two inches of water as his estimate.

If I made any assumption errors, please correct as I'm astounded that over
2,000 gallons of water is locked up in the plumbing for my pool!

If you find any descrepancies or find any of my assumptions hard to
believe, I'll be glad to post any requested photograph for you to see the
details (this is for Smitty Two too!).

Signed,
The human behind the alias at the top of the page

Donna, I sure am not taking sides or even understand what is going
on. I did read your info that just didn't sound right to me, so I
did a bit of checking.

2" Schedule 40 pipe holds .1743 gallons/LF. This is steel pipe, I
suspect yours is plastic, but won't vary much. My source:
http://www.saginawpipe.com/steel_pipe.htm

Your figure of 300LF of 2" pipe would hold a hair over 52 gallons,
not your reported 600. Plastic and copper pipe hold less water
per foot.


The equation for volume of sphere is

V= 4/3 Pi r*3
so for your 2' sphere with a radius of 1'
V= 1.333 x 3.14 x 1
V= 4.1888 cf
there are about 8 gallons (actually 7.48) in a cubic foot, so
about 32 gallons in
the ball, less for the filter junk.

It sounds to me as if you might need to double check some of your
data.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
Keep the whole world singing . . .


"Donna Ohl" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:41:00 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz
wrote:
...and you're claiming that this is a typical pool?

I don't really know what a "typical" pool is. Mine seems to
calculate (see
details below) at 2,150 gallons locked up in the pool plumbing
system.

Maybe I mis-quoted the pool pro. All I really know is he said
"my pool" has
thousands of gallons of water locked up in the plumbing.

I don't know how to approximate the plumbing "loops" but I take
a stab at
it below and ask that you correct my approach where I err.

Doing the calculations, I get 700 gallons locked up in the solar
"plumbing"; 600 gallons in the pool-cleaner plumbing; 200
gallons in the
spa plumbing; and 650 gallons in the filtration plumbing.

The total is xxx gallons in the plumbing (if the number of loops
is
correct).

SOLAR (100 feet away):
- One 2-inch pipe into the ground and one 2-inch return pipe.
- Assume a single loop from the filtration equipment (200 feet).
- Each of the dozen 4-foot panels has a 2-inch pipe on top &
bottom.
- So that's 12 x 4' x 2 = ~100 additional feet of 2-inch pipe.
- The little black tubes are 1/4 inch thick over the entire
area.
- So that's 1/4" x 4' x 12' = 1 cubic foot per panel.
- 12 panels, at 7.5 gallons a cubic foot is only ~100 gallons.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe is 600 gallons; + 100 heated = 700
gallons.
POP-UP CLEANER:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The short edge of the 50-foot long pool is 25 feet from the
equipment.
- So each loop is 75 feet one way, or 150 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the pop-up cleaners.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe is 600 gallons locked up in the
cleaners.
SPA:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- The spa is nearest the pool equipment so it's only 25' away.
- So each loop is 25 feet one way, or 50 feet for each loop.
- Two loops would then be 100 feet in the spa plumbing.
- Total: 100' of 2" pipe is 200 gallons locked up in the spa
pipes.
FILTER:
- Two sets of 2" pipes go into the ground so I assume two loops.
- There are only two skimmers but I don't know if that affects
anything.
- Each loop is 25' to the pool + 50' along the pool so 150 feet
long.
- Two loops would then be 300 feet in the filtration system
plumbing.
- The 125 GPM round-end filter ball is two feet in diameter.
- The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * the radius cubed.
- So that's 4/3 * 3.14 * 1.5^3 = about 75 gallons of water.
- The filters inside take up some space so I'll assume 50
gallons.
- Total: 300' of 2" pipe plus about 50 gallons in the ball = 650
gallons.

Total amount of water locked up in the pool plumbing (did I
err?) is:
- 700 + 600 + 200 + 650 gallons = over 2,000 gallons

I think the pool professional, who said I had a lot of water
locked up in
the plumbing, actually under-estimated the amount by 100% simply
by taking
the last two inches of water as his estimate.

If I made any assumption errors, please correct as I'm astounded
that over
2,000 gallons of water is locked up in the plumbing for my pool!

If you find any descrepancies or find any of my assumptions hard
to
believe, I'll be glad to post any requested photograph for you
to see the
details (this is for Smitty Two too!).

Signed,
The human behind the alias at the top of the page

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:38:20 -0500, DanG wrote:
2" Schedule 40 pipe holds .1743 gallons/LF.

Hi Dan,

All pipe above ground seems to be schedule 40 white plastic painted black.

I did the math as I was writing the post (as I am prone to do) so I'll
double check the figures and post back. I agree, I used a radius of 1.5
because I first assumed the sphere was 3 feet but then went outside to
measure it at two feet and forgot to update that number. )

The figure of 2 gallons per foot inside the two-inch pipe came from
zzzzz (7/18/2010, 8:48:42 am). I didn't question his math but
using your figure of 2/10ths of a gallon per linear foot will tremendously
change the numbers!

Let me first doublecheck how much fluid is in a linear foot of 2-inch OD
pool plumbing pipe!

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:38:20 -0500, "DanG" wrote:

Donna, I sure am not taking sides or even understand what is going
on. I did read your info that just didn't sound right to me, so I
did a bit of checking.

2" Schedule 40 pipe holds .1743 gallons/LF. This is steel pipe, I
suspect yours is plastic, but won't vary much. My source:
http://www.saginawpipe.com/steel_pipe.htm

Your figure of 300LF of 2" pipe would hold a hair over 52 gallons,
not your reported 600. Plastic and copper pipe hold less water
per foot.


The equation for volume of sphere is

V= 4/3 Pi r*3

That would be 4/3 Pi* R^3 (cubed, not times three)

It's not a sphere, it's a cylinder (which I could have blown completely).

V= Pi * r^2 * l

so for your 2' sphere with a radius of 1'

Where did the 2' sphere come from?'

V= 1.333 x 3.14 x 1
V= 4.1888 cf

V = (3.14 * 1"^2 * 12")/12^3 (which is where my mistake is - I used 12^2)
= .0218 cu. ft.
* 8 = .175 gal

Your number, above, is right even if your calculation is all wet. ;-)


there are about 8 gallons (actually 7.48) in a cubic foot, so
about 32 gallons in
the ball, less for the filter junk.

It sounds to me as if you might need to double check some of your
data.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:48:43 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

A 2" pipe holds about 2 gallons per foot.

Trying to verify that as it's one of the most important figures in
calculating the residual liquid in pool plumbing systems.

Let's calculate the volume of a one foot length of plastic schedule 40
white (painted black) pool pipe.

The formula for the volume of a pipe is pi times radius squared, times the
length.

Pi = 3.14
Length is 1 foot
The ID of a 2" OD PVC schedule 40 pipe is apparently 2.067" so let's call
that 2.1" which makes the ID half that which (to one significant figure) is
1.0 inches.
http://www.snapfour.com/pdf/Table_38-39.pdf

The volume of a one-foot length of pipe is:
3.14 x 1.0^2 inches x 12 inches = 38 cubic inches = 0.02 cubic feet

If we assume 7.5 gallons of water is one cubic foot, that's about 0.2
gallons per linear foot of pipe, not two gallons! My mistake.

I'll re do all the match in a prior post to correct by 1/10th!