On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:05:55 -0700, Oren wrote:

Have a good day tomorrow.

"Subjects."

That's what Thomas Jefferson first wrote in an early draft of the
Declaration of Independence to describe the people of the 13 colonies.
"...Over the smudge, Jefferson then wrote the word "citizens."

"Dr. Fenella France, a research chemist at the Library of Congress,
shows recent imaging of the document. (Susan Walsh - AP)"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070205525.html


I wonder why the big deal this year? I spent a year or two reading
about the Declaration and signers a decade ago & 'subjects' was always
the way that smudge was read.

Here's a Princeton page with all the changes annotated-
http://www.princeton.edu/~tjpapers/d...on.html#_edn10
It cites Boyd's 1945 interpretation of the rough draft.

Good news story, and neat new toy-- but hardly 'new history'.

Jim

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:04:46 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:05:55 -0700, Oren wrote:

Have a good day tomorrow.

"Subjects."

That's what Thomas Jefferson first wrote in an early draft of the
Declaration of Independence to describe the people of the 13 colonies.
"...Over the smudge, Jefferson then wrote the word "citizens."

"Dr. Fenella France, a research chemist at the Library of Congress,
shows recent imaging of the document. (Susan Walsh - AP)"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070205525.html


I wonder why the big deal this year? I spent a year or two reading
about the Declaration and signers a decade ago & 'subjects' was always
the way that smudge was read.

Here's a Princeton page with all the changes annotated-
http://www.princeton.edu/~tjpapers/d...on.html#_edn10

The foot note contradicts what I said earlier

"[10] TJ originally wrote “fellow-subjects,” copying the term from the
corresponding passage in the first page of the First Draft of the
Virginia Constitution; then, while the ink was still wet on the “Rough
draught” he expunged or erased “subjects” and wrote “citizens” over
it. The fact that he made the same change in Document I is evidence
that he was using that document as the composition text for this part
of the Declaration."

I can certainly believe they could tell if the ink was still wet,
because erasing it would spread it around, so he did change it
quickly.

It cites Boyd's 1945 interpretation of the rough draft.

Good news story, and neat new toy-- but hardly 'new history'.

Jim

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:17:06 -0400, mm
wrote:

"[10] TJ originally wrote “fellow-subjects,” copying the term from the
corresponding passage in the first page of the First Draft of the
Virginia Constitution; then, while the ink was still wet on the “Rough
draught” he expunged or erased “subjects” and wrote “citizens” over
it. The fact that he made the same change in Document I is evidence
that he was using that document as the composition text for this part
of the Declaration."

If you ever visit Philly, see Independence Hall. Take a self guided
tour. Visit the homes of Jefferson and Betsy Ross of the time and
others.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 22:56:37 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:17:06 -0400, mm
wrote:

"[10] TJ originally wrote “fellow-subjects,” copying the term from the
corresponding passage in the first page of the First Draft of the
Virginia Constitution; then, while the ink was still wet on the “Rough
draught” he expunged or erased “subjects” and wrote “citizens” over
it. The fact that he made the same change in Document I is evidence
that he was using that document as the composition text for this part
of the Declaration."

If you ever visit Philly, see Independence Hall. Take a self guided
tour. Visit the homes of Jefferson and Betsy Ross of the time and
others.

I've been to all those places except Jefferson's home, which must not
have been open whenever I was there. Thanks for telling me.

I've also been to the Eastern Correctional Institute (name?) which was
prettty interesting, and the Franklin Museum, which I recommend
highly.

mm wrote:
....

I've been to all those places except Jefferson's home, which must not
have been open whenever I was there. Thanks for telling me.
....

AFAIK, Jefferson never had a home in Philly; he stayed at the Graff
house during the time the Declaration was being drafted.

The main house is Monticello outside of Charlottesville, VA.

There is also the Poplar House, a second residence southwest of
Lynchburg, VA, between Lynchburg and Bedford (closer to Lynchburg). At
the time we were living on property that backed up to it, it was
privately owned and not open to the public altho I think I have seen
that it has changed hands again and is now (that was 30+ yr ago).

--

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 22:56:37 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:17:06 -0400, mm
wrote:

"[10] TJ originally wrote “fellow-subjects,” copying the term from the
corresponding passage in the first page of the First Draft of the
Virginia Constitution; then, while the ink was still wet on the “Rough
draught” he expunged or erased “subjects” and wrote “citizens” over
it. The fact that he made the same change in Document I is evidence
that he was using that document as the composition text for this part
of the Declaration."

If you ever visit Philly, see Independence Hall. Take a self guided
tour. Visit the homes of Jefferson and Betsy Ross of the time and
others.

Home of Thomas Jefferson in Philadelphia? He was only there for a
year or so & if I recall correctly he stayed in an inexpensive
boarding house. The boarding house, like many of the Signer's
homes & former haunts was torn down. [we didn't really care much
about these folks until the late 19th century]

Jim

dpb wrote:
....

There is also the Poplar House, a second residence southwest of
Lynchburg, VA, between Lynchburg and Bedford (closer to Lynchburg). At
the time we were living on property that backed up to it, it was
privately owned and not open to the public altho I think I have seen
that it has changed hands again and is now (that was 30+ yr ago).

Indeed...

http://www.poplarforest.org/

It's a neat place well worth the side trip if one makes it as close as
Charlottesville. Of course, Appomattox Court House is 30 miles the
other direction along w/ bunches of other things in the area worth
exploring...

--

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 06:28:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

AFAIK, Jefferson never had a home in Philly; he stayed at the Graff
house during the time the Declaration was being drafted.

Correct. "Residence" is what I should have stated.

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 06:28:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

mm wrote:
...

I've been to all those places except Jefferson's home, which must not
have been open whenever I was there. Thanks for telling me.
...

AFAIK, Jefferson never had a home in Philly; he stayed at the Graff
house during the time the Declaration was being drafted.

Is that open to the public? Oh, Oren says yes, or not.

The main house is Monticello outside of Charlottesville, VA.

That I've been to.

I haven't been to Montpelier yet, but I have been to the homes of
about 10 presidents. Two just two years ago on my drive from Balt.to
Dallas and back.

There is also the Poplar House, a second residence southwest of
Lynchburg, VA, between Lynchburg and Bedford (closer to Lynchburg). At
the time we were living on property that backed up to it, it was
privately owned and not open to the public altho I think I have seen
that it has changed hands again and is now (that was 30+ yr ago).

I'll have to get there before I die.

mm wrote:
....

I'll have to get there before I die.

Bucket List item #...



--

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 20:22:42 -0500, dpb wrote:

mm wrote:
...

I'll have to get there before I die.

Bucket List item #...



I have a lot of items but tourism gets qutie a bit of priority. I
also try to get to presidential graves, although the tour of these is
very short.