I am finishing my basement. I used Tapcons to secure PT 2x4 to the
basement slab.

After a week of heavy rains, I noticed that all the screw holes were
weeping water. There was definite circles of moisture (but not
standing water) coming from underneath the bottom plate.

So I am in need of expertise.

1. Does anybody know a Twin Cities expert with many years of basement
experience? I will pay for expert (and I mean EXPERT) consulting from
a grizzled veteran who's seen it all, and can express opinion without
bias.

2. I am considering pulling each screw and injecting silicone into the
holes, then re-driving the screw. What do you guys think? I was also
considering polyurethane foam or epoxy. If I shoot epoxy down the
hole, I'll NEVER get those bottom plates off.

Bryan Scholtes wrote:

I am finishing my basement. I used Tapcons to secure PT 2x4 to the
basement slab.

After a week of heavy rains, I noticed that all the screw holes were
weeping water. There was definite circles of moisture (but not
standing water) coming from underneath the bottom plate.

-snip-

2. I am considering pulling each screw and injecting silicone into the
holes, then re-driving the screw. What do you guys think?

What you need to do is eliminate the water under your slab. You are
wasting every bit of money and effort you put into that job until your
water problem is fixed.

I was also
considering polyurethane foam or epoxy. If I shoot epoxy down the
hole, I'll NEVER get those bottom plates off.

I don't think that epoxy is a good idea--- but why would you ever want
to take those bottom plates off?

Jim

On Jun 29, 6:56*pm, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
*Bryan Scholtes wrote:

I am finishing my basement. I used Tapcons to secure PT 2x4 to the
basement slab.

After a week of heavy rains, I noticed that all the screw holes were
weeping water. There was definite circles of moisture (but not
standing water) coming from underneath the bottom plate.

-snip-



2. I am considering pulling each screw and injecting silicone into the
holes, then re-driving the screw. What do you guys think?

What you need to do is eliminate the water under your slab. * You are
wasting every bit of money and effort you put into that job until your
water problem is fixed.

I was also
considering polyurethane foam or epoxy. If I shoot epoxy down the
hole, I'll NEVER get those bottom plates off.

I don't think that epoxy is a good idea--- but why would you ever want
to take those bottom plates off?

Jim

OP postrer needs interior french drain before ANY FUTHER WORK

with a sump draining to a pump or ideally daylight

OP postrer needs interior french drain before ANY FUTHER WORK

with a sump draining to a pump or ideally daylight

What do you think about just a sump pump? I suppose the water table
may be the problem, as I've never had any water in the basement, ever,
until now.

What would a french accomplish that a sump pump by itself wouldn't?
I'm being sincere, I really don't know.

On Jun 29, 10:52*pm, Bryan Scholtes wrote:
OP postrer needs interior french drain before ANY FUTHER WORK

with a sump draining to a pump or ideally daylight

What do you think about just a sump pump? I suppose the water table
may be the problem, as I've never had any water in the basement, ever,
until now.

What would a french accomplish that a sump pump by itself wouldn't?
I'm being sincere, I really don't know.

interior french drain collects water from all over basement area,
directed by underground lines to a sump and pump or better a daylight
drain its far superior to just a sump and pump which will only collect
water from its immediate area.

before finishing basement you really must fix the moisture issue.
otherwise mold bad odors etc will ruin your new room.let alone the
possiblity of a flood someday

as to fix grade redirect downspout drains etc.

i spent over 8 grand doing that with new sidewalks steps etc and 6
months later still had a wet basement....

the interior french drain with sump cost $3500 bucks and i didnt have
to do any work, i was the laborer for the 8 grand job without my bck
breaking effort it would of been 12 grand took most of summer

sure fix obvious issues, but before finishing a basemet install proper
drainage.

otherwise one storm can ruin all that work...........

and its far easier to install french drains with a nice open basement
with no finished walls etc.

you CANT seal out water all you can do is direct it somewhere else!!

wrote:
On Jun 29, 10:52 pm, Bryan Scholtes wrote:
OP postrer needs interior french drain before ANY FUTHER WORK
with a sump draining to a pump or ideally daylight
What do you think about just a sump pump? I suppose the water table
may be the problem, as I've never had any water in the basement, ever,
until now.

What would a french accomplish that a sump pump by itself wouldn't?
I'm being sincere, I really don't know.

interior french drain collects water from all over basement area,
directed by underground lines to a sump and pump or better a daylight
drain its far superior to just a sump and pump which will only collect
water from its immediate area.

before finishing basement you really must fix the moisture issue.
otherwise mold bad odors etc will ruin your new room.let alone the
possiblity of a flood someday

as to fix grade redirect downspout drains etc.

i spent over 8 grand doing that with new sidewalks steps etc and 6
months later still had a wet basement....

the interior french drain with sump cost $3500 bucks and i didnt have
to do any work, i was the laborer for the 8 grand job without my bck
breaking effort it would of been 12 grand took most of summer

sure fix obvious issues, but before finishing a basemet install proper
drainage.

otherwise one storm can ruin all that work...........

and its far easier to install french drains with a nice open basement
with no finished walls etc.

you CANT seal out water all you can do is direct it somewhere else!!

I still say retro-fit interior french drains are always a last-resort
solution. They break the slab-to-footer connection. If water table is
high enough, sub-floor drains should go in before slab is poured. I've
personally seen one extreme installation, where a rich doctor simply HAD
to have a basement even though local water table was high, and every
other house in the sub was on a crawl or slab. Whole network of sub-slab
perforated tile leading into 2 sump pits, and a doomsday overflow line
leading into a precast manhole-size sump in front yard, so silly doctor
could go rent a commercial pump and drop it in the hole in an extended
power outage, and pump it out into street. Not sure where they thought
it would go, other than into the neighbor's yards- whole sub was rather
flat.

And yes, you CAN seal out water, with proper prep work as foundation is
being built, as slab is poured, and wall sealer and proper footer drains
installed before backfill is put in. They do it in swimming pools all
the time. All a basement is, is a swimming pool with the water on the
outside. That doesn't mean you don't need to grade the yard properly and
have good gutters, of course, since nothing is perfect or lasts forever.

--
aem sends...

wrote:
(snip)

OP postrer needs interior french drain before ANY FUTHER WORK

with a sump draining to a pump or ideally daylight

As we have discussed on here before, drains belong OUTSIDE the wall.
Sometimes an interior drain system may be the only practical
alternative, but OP should look at all the usual suspects and cheap
cures first. Yard grading, gutters, etc. From OP's description, this
sounds like surface water getting under the slab, unless the water table
fluctuates a lot in his area. Need to figure out where the water is
coming in before doing anything.

OP, do you have a sump pit? Does it always have water in it? Is the leak
on same end of basement? Another sump pit may be called for. Do you know
if you have footer-level foundation drains, and where they drain to? If
the drain point is accessible, they may need to be cleaned. Any sign of
seepage or white crystals or mold growing on the walls? If walls are dry
and clean, I suspect water is coming down outside the walls, and leaking
in at footer level.

Here, in five years, my sump pit has stayed bone dry. Fixing outside
grading in a few spots, and disabling the pipes idiot previous owner
installed to direct downspout water straight down around the foundation,
solved 98% of my problem of damp spots in corners. Even with failed
sealing on outside of foundation, and failed foundation drains (if they
were ever there) a little more landscaping and some epoxy injected into
one rusted-out form tie hole, would dry me out completely. And my water
table is only a couple feet below slab level.

--
aem sends...

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 23:09:29 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

wrote:
(snip)

OP postrer needs interior french drain before ANY FUTHER WORK

with a sump draining to a pump or ideally daylight

As we have discussed on here before, drains belong OUTSIDE the wall.

But still below the footings. A perimeter drain 18" below grade will
do a little good-- but an interior perimeter drain will do more.

Jim

On Jun 30, 9:24*am, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 23:09:29 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

wrote:
(snip)

OP postrer needs interior french drain before ANY FUTHER WORK

with a sump draining to a pump or ideally daylight

As we have discussed on here before, drains belong OUTSIDE the wall.

But still below the footings. * A perimeter drain 18" below grade will
do a little good-- but an interior perimeter drain will do more.

Jim

An interior drain system is a huge job. I would not go there because
1 time he had some moisture where he penetrated the slab.

On Jun 29, 6:24*pm, Bryan Scholtes wrote:
I am finishing my basement. I used Tapcons to secure PT 2x4 to the
basement slab.

After a week of heavy rains, I noticed that all the screw holes were
weeping water. There was definite circles of moisture (but not
standing water) coming from underneath the bottom plate.

So I am in need of expertise.

1. Does anybody know a Twin Cities expert with many years of basement
experience? I will pay for expert (and I mean EXPERT) consulting from
a grizzled veteran who's seen it all, and can express opinion without
bias.

2. I am considering pulling each screw and injecting silicone into the
holes, then re-driving the screw. What do you guys think? I was also
considering polyurethane foam or epoxy. If I shoot epoxy down the
hole, I'll NEVER get those bottom plates off.

Can't help you with #1. You might find someone via this newsgroup but
it's doubtful.

I agree with some of the other posters about looking ourtside first.
Make sure that you have done everything you can to get the water away
from the house. Extend the gutter drains a minimum of 10'. Correct
any grading so you have lengthy slopes away form the house. If all
that is already in place then the concenr would be that the water
table is simply coming up under your basement floor. Have you ever
had any water problems before? How long have you been in this house?
Do you believe you drilled through the slab?

I agree about epoxy verses other solutions. It's a difficult choice.
I know nothing adheres like epoxy and it is the most likely to remain
adhered over the other options. But as you pointed out you will have
to cut the tapcons off to remove them. If this is where the wall sare
going to stay then maybe that is not an issue. The trouble with other
solutions is that if they loose adherence to the concrete or tapcons
some years down the road it will be difficult to redo them. I'd
probably go epoxy. But I am an epoxy bigot :-)

You said this happened after a week of heavy rains. If this is as bad
as it gets and you have never had water problems before then maybe
this isn't a big deal. The pt is the right thing to connect to. I'm
wondering if maybe you should use pt as the bottom plate on your wall
as well so you have two layers. I would definately keep the
insulation above the bottom. What wall coverings were you
considering? Leave a healthy gap and prime the backside of the
molding.

What's your schedule? Can you seal the holes and then take a break
for a few months to see what happens?

On Jun 30, 8:03*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 29, 6:24*pm, Bryan Scholtes wrote:





I am finishing my basement. I used Tapcons to secure PT 2x4 to the
basement slab.

After a week of heavy rains, I noticed that all the screw holes were
weeping water. There was definite circles of moisture (but not
standing water) coming from underneath the bottom plate.

So I am in need of expertise.

1. Does anybody know a Twin Cities expert with many years of basement
experience? I will pay for expert (and I mean EXPERT) consulting from
a grizzled veteran who's seen it all, and can express opinion without
bias.

2. I am considering pulling each screw and injecting silicone into the
holes, then re-driving the screw. What do you guys think? I was also
considering polyurethane foam or epoxy. If I shoot epoxy down the
hole, I'll NEVER get those bottom plates off.

Can't help you with #1. *You might find someone via this newsgroup but
it's doubtful.

I agree with some of the other posters about looking ourtside first.
Make sure that you have done everything you can to get the water away
from the house. *Extend the gutter drains a minimum of 10'. *Correct
any grading so you have lengthy slopes away form the house. *If all
that is already in place then the concenr would be that the water
table is simply coming up under your basement floor. *Have you ever
had any water problems before? *How long have you been in this house?
Do you believe you drilled through the slab?

I agree about epoxy verses other solutions. *It's a difficult choice.
I know nothing adheres like epoxy and it is the most likely to remain
adhered over the other options. *But as you pointed out you will have
to cut the tapcons off to remove them. *If this is where the wall sare
going to stay then maybe that is not an issue. *The trouble with other
solutions is that if they loose adherence to the concrete or tapcons
some years down the road it will be difficult to redo them. *I'd
probably go epoxy. *But I am an epoxy bigot :-)

You said this happened after a week of heavy rains. *If this is as bad
as it gets and you have never had water problems before then maybe
this isn't *a big deal. *The pt is the right thing to connect to. *I'm
wondering if maybe you should use pt as the bottom plate on your wall
as well so you have two layers. *I would definately keep the
insulation above the bottom. *What wall coverings were you
considering? *Leave a healthy gap and prime the backside of the
molding.

What's your schedule? *Can you seal the holes and then take a break
for a few months to see what happens?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

since water has been a issue even once its far better to do it once do
it right then relax and enjoy your new room knowing it wouldnt have a
water issue someday. DEFINTELY USE pressure treated wood for the
bottom plate.

since no one knows for sure if the water table in the area is high,
the french drain protects from all that with the gutter and weep holes
at the bottom of al, exterior walls.

it might be 5 years till the 100 year storm floods his basement, so
waiting isnt a reliable option.....

Bryan,

How long have you lived in the house? I'm in Eagan and had some water
in the basement last week for the first time in five years or so. I've
been fighting the moisture thing for the last 25 years with reasonable
success. It was really bad when we first moved in.

I find it hard to believe the Tapcons punctured the vapor barrier
under your slab, unless they were over six inches long. Depending on
the age of your house you may not have a barrier there. Were you in
the house during our last 700 year flood (10 or 12 years ago?). My
guess is you've always had a moisture problem, you just didn't have
enough moisture to experience it.

Good luck.

dss

On Jun 29, 5:24*pm, Bryan Scholtes wrote:
I am finishing my basement. I used Tapcons to secure PT 2x4 to the
basement slab.

After a week of heavy rains, I noticed that all the screw holes were
weeping water. There was definite circles of moisture (but not
standing water) coming from underneath the bottom plate.

So I am in need of expertise.

1. Does anybody know a Twin Cities expert with many years of basement
experience? I will pay for expert (and I mean EXPERT) consulting from
a grizzled veteran who's seen it all, and can express opinion without
bias.

2. I am considering pulling each screw and injecting silicone into the
holes, then re-driving the screw. What do you guys think? I was also
considering polyurethane foam or epoxy. If I shoot epoxy down the
hole, I'll NEVER get those bottom plates off.

Do you have a drain tile and sump pump? I think you need one. I have
used these guys in two homes for drain tiles, and one of my friends
used them also on my recommendation. In my experience they are the
best in the TC's. I would highly recommend. They are experts and
will advise you exactly what you need. When I did my first house I
had about 8 companies come out, and heard different suggestions from
all of them and none of them seemed to really know what was going on.
These guys identified the problem exactly and explained it to me
clearly. It seems there are a lot of fly by nights in this market
that don't really understand the finer points, but these guys at
standard are proper experts with many years' experience. Can't hurt
to get them out to have a look. Honestly, I have no affiliation with
them.

http://standardwater.com/

OK, so an update...

I pulled a couple of the bottom plates. Looks like I didn't drill
through the slab. I assessed this by trying to drill with a non-
masonry bit in a couple of the holes, and they didn't go anywhere.
Most of the holes were about 1.5 inches deep. But the plates I did
pull were certainly moist underneath.

Over the phone, one local place suggested I look at the height of the
first concrete block. He deduced the slab thickness by assuming the
slab was as thick as the buried portion of the first concrete block.
So that;d be about 4 inches. He also didn't want to come out because
he didn't believe I had a problem. He's convinced I need to grade
better and do a better job of keeping water away from the foundation.

The second guy is coming by Wednesday night to physically check it
out. He believes it's condensation wicking through the slab and
expressing itself on the bottom plates. His suggestion was the same as
the first guy's, but contingent on stopping by and actually looking at
it.

Everything is on hold for now. If I have to install a French drain, I
can't afford it. I'll probably pull out the existing framing and scrap
the refinish. Maybe I'll insulate above grade and just make the
unfinished basement as comfortable as possible.

So we'll see... My situation seems to be unique. It's nowhere else on
the Web. I hope this is a reference for people in the future.

Thanks for your help!!!

On Jul 5, 2:40*pm, Bryan Scholtes wrote:
OK, so an update...

I pulled a couple of the bottom plates. Looks like I didn't drill
through the slab. I assessed this by trying to drill with a non-
masonry bit in a couple of the holes, and they didn't go anywhere.
Most of the holes were about 1.5 inches deep. But the plates I did
pull were certainly moist underneath.

Over the phone, one local place suggested I look at the height of the
first concrete block. He *deduced the slab thickness by assuming the
slab was as thick as the buried portion of the first concrete block.
So that;d be about 4 inches. He also didn't want to come out because
he didn't believe I had a problem. He's convinced I need to grade
better and do a better job of keeping water away from the foundation.

The second guy is coming by Wednesday night to physically check it
out. He believes it's condensation wicking through the slab and
expressing itself on the bottom plates. His suggestion was the same as
the first guy's, but contingent on stopping by and actually looking at
it.

Everything is on hold for now. If I have to install a French drain, I
can't afford it. I'll probably pull out the existing framing and scrap
the refinish. Maybe I'll insulate above grade and just make the
unfinished basement as comfortable as possible.

So we'll see... My situation seems to be unique. It's nowhere else on
the Web. I hope this is a reference for people in the future.

Thanks for your help!!!

It's possible that you have some water under the slab and no vapor
barrier. Set some things down on the slab in various places for a few
days and then see if it is damp under them. If it has never flooded I
don't kown that it would prevent me from finishing it. But I probably
would put a good dehumidifier down there. And keep the flooring
choice simple.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 5, 2:40 pm, Bryan Scholtes wrote:
OK, so an update...

I pulled a couple of the bottom plates. Looks like I didn't drill
through the slab. I assessed this by trying to drill with a non-
masonry bit in a couple of the holes, and they didn't go anywhere.
Most of the holes were about 1.5 inches deep. But the plates I did
pull were certainly moist underneath.

Over the phone, one local place suggested I look at the height of the
first concrete block. He deduced the slab thickness by assuming the
slab was as thick as the buried portion of the first concrete block.
So that;d be about 4 inches. He also didn't want to come out because
he didn't believe I had a problem. He's convinced I need to grade
better and do a better job of keeping water away from the foundation.

The second guy is coming by Wednesday night to physically check it
out. He believes it's condensation wicking through the slab and
expressing itself on the bottom plates. His suggestion was the same as
the first guy's, but contingent on stopping by and actually looking at
it.

Everything is on hold for now. If I have to install a French drain, I
can't afford it. I'll probably pull out the existing framing and scrap
the refinish. Maybe I'll insulate above grade and just make the
unfinished basement as comfortable as possible.

So we'll see... My situation seems to be unique. It's nowhere else on
the Web. I hope this is a reference for people in the future.

Thanks for your help!!!

It's possible that you have some water under the slab and no vapor
barrier. Set some things down on the slab in various places for a few
days and then see if it is damp under them. If it has never flooded I
don't kown that it would prevent me from finishing it. But I probably
would put a good dehumidifier down there. And keep the flooring
choice simple.

Try the classic 'wet concrete' test- tape some 12-18 inch squares of
plastic sheeting (visqueen or similar) down in various spots in the
basement, and leave for 24-48 hours. If the slab is wicking water, it
will quickly become apparent under the plastic.

--
aem sends...

The actual cost of materials to install french drain in interior is
pretty low, that cheap flexible black plastic corrugated drain pipe, a
pile of gravel bought at a supply yard, some concrete to replace
removed areas of floor, rental of a jackhammer a sup pit and pump some
PVC drain pipe.

Its not rocket science a nice DIY project. mostly moving junk most
have filling their basements.... you can do one area at a time if
thats a issue

but once its done your homes value increases

On Jul 1, 3:46*am, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Bryan Scholtes





wrote:
I am finishing my basement. I used Tapcons to secure PT 2x4 to the
basement slab.

After a week of heavy rains, I noticed that all the screw holes were
weeping water. There was definite circles of moisture (but not
standing water) coming from underneath the bottom plate.

So I am in need of expertise.

1. Does anybody know a Twin Cities expert with many years of basement
experience? I will pay for expert (and I mean EXPERT) consulting from
a grizzled veteran who's seen it all, and can express opinion without
bias.

2. I am considering pulling each screw and injecting silicone into the
holes, then re-driving the screw. What do you guys think? I was also
considering polyurethane foam or epoxy. If I shoot epoxy down the
hole, I'll NEVER get those bottom plates off.

Apparently you drilled all the way thru the concrete to the gravel or
soil base. *Otherwise why would water be coming out of the concrete if
it never did before. *Normally you only drill in the depth of the
Tapcons, and most concrete slabs are 4 inches or more. I would have
only drilled in 2 inches and used Tapcons that are 3 inches long
(going into slab 1.5 inches and thru 2x4 which is actually 1.5 inches.

Personally, I'd remove the 2x4s and seal all the holes with epoxy.
Then glue the 2x4s to the slab with PL400 or something similar and
wait for it to dry before attaching studs. *Be sure to apply weight to
that 2x4 after you apply the adhesive. *Maybe just precut the studs
and cram them against the ceiling joists avery few feet to press the
adhesive tight.

Just my 2 cents as a retired builder.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sounds like may also be a water accumulation problem below the slab?
Maybe proper drainage has been neglected or if there was drainage away
from the house it has been damaged or interfered with?
Our basement, 40 years ago we installed perforated drains pipes
outside and inside of the footings and lots of gravel to a sump in the
corner, before the concrete floor was poured and finished. There is a
pump in the sump which runs very occasionally.
The time to fix any potential water problem is 'now' before doing any
work on finishing the basement area. Mould damp and rot are not nice!