This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

On Jun 22, 9:18*am, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

The danger would be that one half of the circuit could fail and the
remaining half would be overloaded.

In your example it's probably ok to run a microwave on a 15amp circuit
with a single piece of 14/2. But I would run 12/2 on a 20 amp
myself. A dryer would be a better example.

Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

You _could_ look up the wire size tables, but -- two 14's are the area
of between one 12 and one 10. A14 = 0.003, A12 = 0.005, A10 = 0.008

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

The prime danger is one of the loss of connection or disparity in the
quality of connection to one of the two conductors as most terminals are
not designed for more than one wire under the connector.

It would be possible to do so by pigtailing ends to a third conductor
for the connection.

AFAIK the arrangement is not condoned by NEC; where specifically it says
it except under the workmanship clause I've no idea since it's patently
silly as two wires of smaller size are more costly than the one larger.

But, if the ends were stranded, functionally there would really be no
difference between the it and stranded wire of equivalent area.


Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.


As above, it's not "the right way" for the safety issue in the
connections, mostly which is at least one reason for it not being
Code-acceptable.

--

Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul
Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.

On Jun 22, 9:51*am, Tony Hwang wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you're both wrong. A single lead failure results in an
overload on the remaining lead. And I think this is banned by the
code which would require that a conductor connected to a breaker be
rated to carry the load of the breaker. In otherwords an inspector
would fail me for connecting 14/2 to a 30amp breaker. Even though two
pieces of 14/2 could carry 30 amps.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:51 am, Tony wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you're both wrong. A single lead failure results in an
overload on the remaining lead. And I think this is banned by the
code which would require that a conductor connected to a breaker be
rated to carry the load of the breaker. In otherwords an inspector
would fail me for connecting 14/2 to a 30amp breaker. Even though two
pieces of 14/2 could carry 30 amps.
Hi,
I said it based on theory not on real life practice.
OP mentioned theory.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:

This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

On Jun 22, 10:21*am, Tony Hwang wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:51 am, Tony *wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you're both wrong. *A single lead failure results in an
overload on the remaining lead. *And I think this is banned by the
code which would require that a conductor connected to a breaker be
rated to carry the load of the breaker. *In otherwords an inspector
would fail me for connecting 14/2 to a 30amp breaker. *Even though two
pieces of 14/2 could carry 30 amps.

Hi,
I said it based on theory not on real life practice.
OP mentioned theory.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Even in the theoretical world it would still be bad because of the
potential for a single lead failure. Safety aside you would also end
up with reduced voltage at the load in the event of a single lead
failure. In the case of a load like an AC this could lead to
compressor failure.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 10:21 am, Tony wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:51 am, Tony wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you're both wrong. A single lead failure results in an
overload on the remaining lead. And I think this is banned by the
code which would require that a conductor connected to a breaker be
rated to carry the load of the breaker. In otherwords an inspector
would fail me for connecting 14/2 to a 30amp breaker. Even though two
pieces of 14/2 could carry 30 amps.

Hi,
I said it based on theory not on real life practice.
OP mentioned theory.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Even in the theoretical world it would still be bad because of the
potential for a single lead failure. Safety aside you would also end
up with reduced voltage at the load in the event of a single lead
failure. In the case of a load like an AC this could lead to
compressor failure.
Hmm,
What is the definition of theory?

In article , Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines

Hold it right there, cowboy.

If you don't know the difference between neutral and ground, you have no
business mucking about with 120VAC.

in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Code violation. Conductors are not allowed to be run in parallel below a
certain size -- I think 2/0, but I'm not sure without looking it up.

On Jun 22, 10:23*am, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Only the brits could come up with something like this. Seems the wiki
article spends more time on the problems associated with it than
anything else.

In article , dpb wrote:
AFAIK the arrangement is not condoned by NEC; where specifically it says
it except under the workmanship clause I've no idea since it's patently
silly as two wires of smaller size are more costly than the one larger.

Right he

"... conductors of size 1/0 AWG or larger ... shall be permitted to be
connected in parallel..." [2008 NEC, Article 310.4(A)]

Anything smaller than 1/0 AWG is not allowed to be run parallel.

In article , Tony Hwang wrote:

Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.

No, it's not "OK". It's a Code violation.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , dpb
wrote:
AFAIK the arrangement is not condoned by NEC; where specifically it
says it except under the workmanship clause I've no idea since it's
patently silly as two wires of smaller size are more costly than the
one larger.

Right he

"... conductors of size 1/0 AWG or larger ... shall be permitted to be
connected in parallel..." [2008 NEC, Article 310.4(A)]

Anything smaller than 1/0 AWG is not allowed to be run parallel.

I once asked a college English teacher how he could smoke in the classroom
when there was a sign over the door reading "No Smoking Permitted by order
of the Campus Fire Marshall."

He rudely informed me that if I didn't want to smoke, I could remain in the
room.

He would say the bit you quoted says nothing about anything smaller than
1/0.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tony Hwang wrote:

Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.

No, it's not "OK". It's a Code violation.

As someone else noted, it's a code violation only below a certain wire
size - 1/0. Above that size parallel conductors are permitted and fairly
common, but that size puts such cases outside of nearly all residential
applications.

On 6/22/2010 9:45 AM, dpb wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

You _could_ look up the wire size tables, but -- two 14's are the area
of between one 12 and one 10. A14 = 0.003, A12 = 0.005, A10 = 0.008

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

The prime danger is one of the loss of connection or disparity in the
quality of connection to one of the two conductors as most terminals are
not designed for more than one wire under the connector.

It would be possible to do so by pigtailing ends to a third conductor
for the connection.

AFAIK the arrangement is not condoned by NEC; where specifically it says
it except under the workmanship clause I've no idea since it's patently
silly as two wires of smaller size are more costly than the one larger.

It is quite common to do so with large size wire (1/0 and larger). One
reason is because skin effect diminishes the ampacity increase you get
by increasing size and the other is that it is just plain difficult to
work with large cables.





But, if the ends were stranded, functionally there would really be no
difference between the it and stranded wire of equivalent area.


Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.


As above, it's not "the right way" for the safety issue in the
connections, mostly which is at least one reason for it not being
Code-acceptable.

--

On Jun 22, 9:51*am, Tony Hwang wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In theory, whether the wires are exactly the same length or not
matters not a wit.

On Jun 22, 10:27*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Pavel314 wrote:

This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines

Hold it right there, cowboy.

If you don't know the difference between neutral and ground, you have no
business mucking about with 120VAC.

I know the difference in my own mind but since I rarely discuss
electrical wiring with others I may use the wrong term occasionally.

Paul

On Jun 22, 3:23*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes, we have ring circuts for 13A sockets and fixed appliances up to
3KW. As we are on 240V that gives just over 3KVA (KWresistive.) The
advantage is that it makes more efficient use of the cable, it's easy
to extend the system and safer as every plug has it's own fuse rated
in size to the appliance. The ring is wired to a 30A circuit
breaker. Normally the ring covers the whole house. There can be
unlimited number of sockets on a ring, but a ring is limited to a
fixed area. It's therefore ideal for today's multitude of small
devices.
Fifty years ago we had a system similar to the US one but it was
abandoned for the reasons above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main

On Jun 22, 3:31*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 10:23*am, Jules Richardson





wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Only the brits could come up with something like this. *Seems the wiki
article spends more time on the problems associated with it than
anything else.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are no problems with it. I was once an electrician.

On Jun 22, 3:23*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules
Yes, we have a ring main system over here with 13Asockets. It makes
more efficient use of the wire, is safer and easier to extend. There
is a fuse in each plug sized to the appliance it supplies. There can
be an unlimited number of sockets on a ring and it's connected to a
30A CB. The area it serves is limited to 100m2. It's ideally suited
to todays home with many small appliances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main
We had a radial system over here at one time , it was abandonded over
fifty years ago.

On Jun 22, 3:25*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 10:21 am, Tony *wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:51 am, Tony * *wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you're both wrong. *A single lead failure results in an
overload on the remaining lead. *And I think this is banned by the
code which would require that a conductor connected to a breaker be
rated to carry the load of the breaker. *In otherwords an inspector
would fail me for connecting 14/2 to a 30amp breaker. *Even though two
pieces of 14/2 could carry 30 amps.

Hi,
I said it based on theory not on real life practice.
OP mentioned theory.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Even in the theoretical world it would still be bad because of the
potential for a single lead failure. *Safety aside you would also end
up with reduced voltage at the load in the event of a single lead
failure. *In the case of a load like an AC this could lead to
compressor failure.

Hmm,
What is the definition of theory?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hypothesis..............theory..............law.
It's how a new idea progresses to being set in concrete.

Hypothesis............."W" is a retard
Theory..............relativity. Might be wrong yet.
Law........Gravity................No exceptions ever found.

On Jun 22, 12:23*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes and even then UK allows 'spurs' off such a ring-main circuit. In
other words like a 'radial' off a ring circuit!

However relative to the 13 amp rating of their outlets and use of
fused plugs their ring and 'spur' wiring is AIUI heavier than would be
used in North American practice. Don't know why we couldn't use ring
circuits here in NA. A relative has encountered them in commercial oil
rig practice!

On Jun 22, 1:01*pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 22, 3:23*pm, Jules Richardson



wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes, we have a ring main system over here with 13Asockets. *It makes
more efficient use of the wire, is safer and easier to extend.

What exactly makes it safer and easier to extend? With billions of
simple straight run circuits installed in the USA, I haven't seen any
reports of anything bad happening here, so I'd say safety is a moot
point.


There
is a fuse in each plug sized to the appliance it supplies. *There can
be an unlimited number of sockets on a ring *and it's connected to a
30A CB. *The area it serves is limited to 100m2. *It's ideally suited
to todays home with many small appliances.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main
We had a radial system over here at one time , it was abandonded over
fifty years ago.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jun 22, 3:01*pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 22, 3:23*pm, Jules Richardson



wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an economical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes, we have a ring main system over here with 13a Sockets. *It makes
more efficient use of the wire, is safer and easier to extend. There
is a fuse in each plug sized to the appliance it supplies. *There can
be an unlimited number of sockets on a ring *and it's connected to a
30A CB. *The area it serves is limited to 100m2. *It's ideally suited
to today's home with many small appliances.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main
We had a radial system over here at one time , it was abandoned over
fifty years ago.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, makes sense. I never worked with it but 30A at 230/240 volts is
a lot of usable wattage, eh? Around 7 kilowatts and almost 6000 watts
using an 80% loading rule, if there is one.
Lived briefly in the middle east and relatives house had 3 230 volt
phases into his residence. Lots of power, for Air conditioners etc. on
relatively small conductors. All buried in the sandy ground.
Something similar in Malta as well. Three phases with a common neutral
along each street on house brackets. But Malta, as an isolated island
in the Med. power was very expensive!
BTW keep an eye/ear out for big new hydro development at Lower
Churchill, Labrador to be developed next few years to feed renewable
power to the Atlantic Provinces of Canada and north eastern USA. It's
also welcome because such power is considered less polluting. Right
now we live in an area that has almost 100% hydro power but not yet
connected to the North American grid system. With this existing supply
and despite a small population of around half a million and the need
for relatively long overhead transmission lines in a windy/icy climate
our power is very reliable and at very reasonable cost.
No piped in gas here; so domestically homes are virtually 100%
electric. It's a very convenient and safe fuel!
Cheers.

wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:51 am, Tony Hwang wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.
Box: Hot ====================
Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================
So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:
1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?
2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?
Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.
Paul
Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.

In theory, whether the wires are exactly the same length or not
matters not a wit.

"Theoretically" - it depends on what the breaker size is. If it is 30A
(which the wires would support) they have to be the same length (or else
the current is not split evenly between the wires). On a 15A breaker
"theoretically" it doesn't matter. The OP seems to be asking the first
question.

For paralleling under the NEC, not only do the lengths have to be equal,
you have to match conductor material, conductor area, insulation and
termination.

As Doug said, the NEC allows paralleling for wires over 1/0. Why would
you want to parallel small wires. You are increasing the probability of
a problem, including what someone might do in the future. And the
"right" size wire is about always easier to use.

As I believe someone said, wires have to (generally) be protected at the
source for the wire ampacity. A #14 (or 2-#14s) connected to a 30A
breaker is a violation.


I have read that ring circuits in the UK were used in the rebuilding
after WW2 because they used less scarce copper. If the ring circuit was
30A, the wire would be lighter than a 30A rating, but I believe it was
significantly higher than 15A. Since each side of the ring would seldom
be equal length, the current does not divide equally in each direction.
You also don't want "sockets" near the ends of the ring.

--
bud--

On Jun 22, 12:50*pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 22, 3:31*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jun 22, 10:23*am, Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Only the brits could come up with something like this. *Seems the wiki
article spends more time on the problems associated with it than
anything else.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are no problems with it. *I was once an electrician.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Perhaps you should go read the lengthy section labeled criticisms

On Jun 22, 8:18*am, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

First of all the white wire is not a ground. What are you using for
ground? Is this in conduit?

Second of all, as mentioned, if one wire loses contact then its sister
wire is now overloaded.

Third of all if someone does future work from that box they may likely
just use only one of the 14ga leads, or branch off with only a single
14ga lead.

Installed by an English electrician, of course? Who trained at Lucas
Electric?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"terry"
wrote in message
...

Don't know why we couldn't use ring
circuits here in NA. A relative has encountered them in commercial oil
rig practice!

Glad that works for you, and is dependable. Much of the power grid in
the USA is not as dependable.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"terry"
wrote in message
...

BTW keep an eye/ear out for big new hydro development at Lower
Churchill, Labrador to be developed next few years to feed renewable
power to the Atlantic Provinces of Canada and north eastern USA. It's
also welcome because such power is considered less polluting. Right
now we live in an area that has almost 100% hydro power but not yet
connected to the North American grid system. With this existing supply
and despite a small population of around half a million and the need
for relatively long overhead transmission lines in a windy/icy climate
our power is very reliable and at very reasonable cost.
No piped in gas here; so domestically homes are virtually 100%
electric. It's a very convenient and safe fuel!
Cheers.

On Jun 22, 7:18*am, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

==
I would consider your proposition bizarre to say the least, but since
you are NOT going to do it anyway then the question does not have to
be answered and the whole thing is moot.
==

If one wire were to be accidentally cut or disconnected, the other would
then carry the entire load. That's why doing what you suggest violates
code. Even if you run 100 pairs, each one is required to be large enough
to carry the entire load.

Also, connecting two wires to one terminal of a breaker also violates code,
and for good reason.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:24:26 -0700 (PDT), Roy wrote:

On Jun 22, 7:18*am, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.

Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================

So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:

1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?

2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?

Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.

Paul

==
I would consider your proposition bizarre to say the least, but since
you are NOT going to do it anyway then the question does not have to
be answered and the whole thing is moot.
==

In article , wrote:

Also, connecting two wires to one terminal of a breaker also violates code,

Not if the breaker terminal is listed for two wires. Some are.

On Jun 22, 6:35*pm, terry wrote:
On Jun 22, 12:23*pm, Jules Richardson





wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes and even then UK allows 'spurs' off such a ring-main circuit. In
other words like a 'radial' off a ring circuit!

However relative to the 13 amp rating of their outlets and use of
fused plugs their ring and 'spur' wiring is AIUI heavier than would be
used in North American practice. Don't know why we couldn't use ring
circuits here in NA. A relative has encountered them in commercial oil
rig practice!- Hide quoted text -

That's correct. You can wire two sockets or one fixed appliance off a
"spur".

On Jun 22, 6:52*pm, wrote:
On Jun 22, 1:01*pm, harry wrote:





On Jun 22, 3:23*pm, Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes, we have a ring main system over here with 13Asockets. *It makes
more efficient use of the wire, is safer and easier to extend.

What exactly makes it safer and easier to extend? *With billions of
simple straight run circuits installed in the USA, I haven't seen any
reports of anything bad happening here, so I'd say safety is a moot
point.



There
is a fuse in each plug sized to the appliance it supplies. *There can
be an unlimited number of sockets on a ring *and it's connected to a
30A CB. *The area it serves is limited to 100m2. *It's ideally suited
to todays home with many small appliances.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main
We had a radial system over here at one time , it was abandonded over
fifty years ago.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you want an extra socket, you can break into the ring at any point
and reroute the wiring or use joint boxes. There is no need to run
wires back to the circuit breaker. One, two, three and four gang
sockest are available.
It's safer because each plug has a cartridge fuse in it, sized to the
appliance. eg for a TV,1amp, for an electric heater, washing machine
etc 10 or 13amps (2 or 3 Kw).

On Jun 22, 7:21*pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:51 am, Tony Hwang wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually
plan to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker
box to one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air
conditioner or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this
guy decides that instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job,
he'll use up some 14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous
job, but run two hot lines and two ground lines in parallel, as
diagrammed below.
Box: Hot ====================
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Load Outlet
Box: Ground==================
So we have two black 14g wires running from the hot connector on the
breaker to the outlet and two white 14g wires running back from the
outlet to the ground in the box. Two questions:
1. What gauge single wire would this be equivalent to in current
carrying capacity? That is, would this be the same as running a single
10g or 8g or what? Maybe 14g / 2 = 7g?
2. This seems to be very unsafe but I'm not sure why. It's probably
against every wiring code everywhere. What's the danger with this set
up?
Again, I'm not going to do this, I'm actually going to go out and buy
the proper gauge wire for my project, but this popped into my head and
I wondered what the rest of you thought about it.
Paul
Hi,
Since you mention theory, if you make the length of wires EXACTLY same
to even the load current and make sure two wires always stay connected
TOGETHER, it'll be OK.

In theory, whether the wires are exactly the same length or not
matters not a wit.

"Theoretically" - it depends on what the breaker size is. If it is 30A
(which the wires would support) they have to be the same length (or else
the current is not split evenly between the wires). On a 15A breaker
"theoretically" it doesn't matter. The OP seems to be asking the first
question.

For paralleling under the NEC, not only do the lengths have to be equal,
you have to match conductor material, conductor area, insulation and
termination.

As Doug said, the NEC allows paralleling for wires over 1/0. Why would
you want to parallel small wires. You are increasing the probability of
a problem, including what someone might do in the future. And the
"right" size wire is about always easier to use.

As I believe someone said, wires have to (generally) be protected at the
source for the wire ampacity. A #14 (or 2-#14s) connected to a 30A
breaker is a violation.

I have read that ring circuits in the UK were used in the rebuilding
after WW2 because they used less scarce copper. If the ring circuit was
30A, the wire would be lighter than a 30A rating, but I believe it was
significantly higher than 15A. Since each side of the ring would seldom
be equal length, the current does not divide equally in each direction.
You also don't want "sockets" near the ends of the ring.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The wire used in the ring is rated at 20amp. I can't compare it with
your "guages" because we gave up using wire guages even before I was
an apprentice. We then use an imperial system but that has been
abandoned too , we have now gone metric.
You can put the sockets anywhere you like on the circuit. In practice
there are no problems. Remember it's all subject to a floor area
limitation of 100m2

On Jun 22, 7:32*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 12:50*pm, harry wrote:





On Jun 22, 3:31*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jun 22, 10:23*am, Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Only the brits could come up with something like this. *Seems the wiki
article spends more time on the problems associated with it than
anything else.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are no problems with it. *I was once an electrician.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Perhaps you should go read the lengthy section labeled criticisms- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is Wiki. We don't know who wrote this. There are millions of
these systems been in use for sixty years. There aren't any
problems, I have read through the "problems" page and can only
conclude the writer is not an electrical engineer. Most of the
problems outlined also apply to radial circuits, some are non
existant. Except maybe for the problem of foreign electricians. They
would be working illegally. I think you have this problem too with
Mexicans.

On Jun 23, 4:34*pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 22, 6:52*pm, wrote:





On Jun 22, 1:01*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 22, 3:23*pm, Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes, we have a ring main system over here with 13Asockets. *It makes
more efficient use of the wire, is safer and easier to extend.

What exactly makes it safer and easier to extend? *With billions of
simple straight run circuits installed in the USA, I haven't seen any
reports of anything bad happening here, so I'd say safety is a moot
point.

There
is a fuse in each plug sized to the appliance it supplies. *There can
be an unlimited number of sockets on a ring *and it's connected to a
30A CB. *The area it serves is limited to 100m2. *It's ideally suited
to todays home with many small appliances.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main
We had a radial system over here at one time , it was abandonded over
fifty years ago.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you want an extra socket, you can break into the ring at any point
and reroute the wiring or use joint boxes. There is no need to run
wires back to the circuit breaker. One, two, three and four gang
sockest are available.

I can do exactly that under the US wiring methods as well, add an
outlet to an existing circuit without installing a new breaker and
wire run to the panel.

Next!



It's safer because each plug has a cartridge fuse in it, sized to the
appliance. *eg for a TV,1amp, for an electric heater, washing machine
etc 10 *or 13amps (2 or 3 Kw).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The fact that the plug has a fuse in it has nothing to do with wiring
it in a ring. That could be done with either method.

Next!


Besides being a rabble rouser here with OT posts, you really don't
know much, do you?

On Jun 24, 12:33*pm, wrote:
On Jun 23, 4:34*pm, harry wrote:





On Jun 22, 6:52*pm, wrote:

On Jun 22, 1:01*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 22, 3:23*pm, Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes, we have a ring main system over here with 13Asockets. *It makes
more efficient use of the wire, is safer and easier to extend.

What exactly makes it safer and easier to extend? *With billions of
simple straight run circuits installed in the USA, I haven't seen any
reports of anything bad happening here, so I'd say safety is a moot
point.

There
is a fuse in each plug sized to the appliance it supplies. *There can
be an unlimited number of sockets on a ring *and it's connected to a
30A CB. *The area it serves is limited to 100m2. *It's ideally suited
to todays home with many small appliances.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main
We had a radial system over here at one time , it was abandonded over
fifty years ago.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you want an extra socket, you can break into the ring at any point
and reroute the wiring or use joint boxes. There is no need to run
wires back to the circuit breaker. One, two, three and four gang
sockest are available.

I can do exactly that under the US wiring methods as well, add an
outlet to an existing circuit without installing a new breaker and
wire run to the panel.

Next!

It's safer because each plug has a cartridge fuse in it, sized to the
appliance. *eg for a TV,1amp, for an electric heater, washing machine
etc 10 *or 13amps (2 or 3 Kw).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The fact that the plug has a fuse in it has nothing to do with wiring
it in a ring. *That could be done with either method.

Next!

Besides being a rabble rouser here with OT posts, you really don't
know much, do you?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But isn't. How many sockets an you wire n a radial?

On Jun 24, 7:48*am, harry wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:33*pm, wrote:





On Jun 23, 4:34*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 22, 6:52*pm, wrote:

On Jun 22, 1:01*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 22, 3:23*pm, Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:18:54 -0700, Pavel314 wrote:
This is a theoretical electrical question, not something I actually plan
to do. Say somebody wants to run a new circuit from the breaker box to
one special outlet, like for a microwave oven or window air conditioner
or something like that. Being an ecconomical sort, this guy decides that
instead of buying the proper gauge wire for the job, he'll use up some
14 gauge wire which is lying around from a previous job, but run two hot
lines and two ground lines in parallel, as diagrammed below.

That's essentially the way it's done in the UK; wiring is run such that
outlets sit on a ring circuit rather than a radial from the service panel
(consumer unit in UK parlance). See:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I'm sure it violates all sorts of rules this side of the Pond :-)

cheers

Jules

Yes, we have a ring main system over here with 13Asockets. *It makes
more efficient use of the wire, is safer and easier to extend.

What exactly makes it safer and easier to extend? *With billions of
simple straight run circuits installed in the USA, I haven't seen any
reports of anything bad happening here, so I'd say safety is a moot
point.

There
is a fuse in each plug sized to the appliance it supplies. *There can
be an unlimited number of sockets on a ring *and it's connected to a
30A CB. *The area it serves is limited to 100m2. *It's ideally suited
to todays home with many small appliances.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_main
We had a radial system over here at one time , it was abandonded over
fifty years ago.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you want an extra socket, you can break into the ring at any point
and reroute the wiring or use joint boxes. There is no need to run
wires back to the circuit breaker. One, two, three and four gang
sockest are available.

I can do exactly that under the US wiring methods as well, add an
outlet to an existing circuit without installing a new breaker and
wire run to the panel.

Next!

It's safer because each plug has a cartridge fuse in it, sized to the
appliance. *eg for a TV,1amp, for an electric heater, washing machine
etc 10 *or 13amps (2 or 3 Kw).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The fact that the plug has a fuse in it has nothing to do with wiring
it in a ring. *That could be done with either method.

Next!

Besides being a rabble rouser here with OT posts, you really don't
know much, do you?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But isn't. How many sockets an you wire n a radial?- Hide quoted text -


That would depend on several factors and some of the resident NEC
experts here can better answer that question. But for general use
outlets in residential wiring, I believe the number of outlets is
going to be a function of what is practical and limited by that as
opposed to the hard limit. I don't think you'd want more than about
8 on one 15 amp circuit and that is well within what is allowed.