I'm making a home tennis court out of an asphalt paved area. I've
already bought the net and posts. The specified concrete footing for
each tennis net post is a 30" square at the bottom, tapering up over a
height of 42" into an 18" diameter circle at the top. A drawing is at
http://sportsbuilders.org/page.php?id=96&from[]=11&from[]=12&from[]=13&.
Could I use 3/4" plywood to make a form strong enough to contain this
much concrete without blowing out or breaking? I think the bigger job
may actually be cutting out a big enough square out of the asphalt
(32"?) so I can then rent a 30" auger to dig 42" deep, cut the corners
out to a square with a shovel, and then drop the empty form in, and
somehow hold it down while pouring the roughly ton of concrete into
each one. After stripping the form, backfill with dirt and repair the
asphalt. Any suggestions for me? I'm thinking readymix concrete for
the little over 1 cubic yard I need to avoid all that mixing, and it's
probably cheaper than buying eighty 80" bags of concrete mix.

hillpc wrote:
I'm making a home tennis court out of an asphalt paved area. I've
already bought the net and posts. The specified concrete footing for
each tennis net post is a 30" square at the bottom, tapering up over a
height of 42" into an 18" diameter circle at the top. A drawing is at
http://sportsbuilders.org/page.php?id=96&from[]=11&from[]=12&from[]=13&.
Could I use 3/4" plywood to make a form strong enough to contain this
much concrete without blowing out or breaking? I think the bigger job
may actually be cutting out a big enough square out of the asphalt
(32"?) so I can then rent a 30" auger to dig 42" deep, cut the corners
out to a square with a shovel, and then drop the empty form in, and
somehow hold it down while pouring the roughly ton of concrete into
each one. After stripping the form, backfill with dirt and repair the
asphalt. Any suggestions for me? I'm thinking readymix concrete for
the little over 1 cubic yard I need to avoid all that mixing, and it's
probably cheaper than buying eighty 80" bags of concrete mix.

Go to local concrete supply place- they have premade plastic forms that
look like an upside-down cone.Dig the hole, put the form in, stick a
little rebar in, fill with concrete, insert post base, done. The form
stays in the hole. Lots less work than building a form, and with the
price of plywood these days, probably about as cheap. Still gotta patch
the hole, though.

I'm no tennis expert, but isn't most parking-grade asphalt a lousy court
surface? Not flat, not smooth, etc. The balls will bounce funny, etc. Or
are you going to put a sand bed and astro-turf/rubber mat surface above it?

--
aem sends...

hillpc wrote:
I'm making a home tennis court out of an asphalt paved area. I've
already bought the net and posts. The specified concrete footing for
each tennis net post is a 30" square at the bottom, tapering up over a
height of 42" into an 18" diameter circle at the top. A drawing is at
http://sportsbuilders.org/page.php?id=96&from[]=11&from[]=12&from[]=13&.
Could I use 3/4" plywood to make a form strong enough to contain this
much concrete without blowing out or breaking? I think the bigger job
may actually be cutting out a big enough square out of the asphalt
(32"?) so I can then rent a 30" auger to dig 42" deep, cut the corners
out to a square with a shovel, and then drop the empty form in, and
somehow hold it down while pouring the roughly ton of concrete into
each one. After stripping the form, backfill with dirt and repair the
asphalt. Any suggestions for me? I'm thinking readymix concrete for
the little over 1 cubic yard I need to avoid all that mixing, and it's
probably cheaper than buying eighty 80" bags of concrete mix.

Is there a reason you can't use the hole as the form? I'd use a Dingo
with an 18" auger, then switch to a 12" auger and/or a post hole digger
to finish. That avoids all the problems associated with trying to
backfill, compact the soil, and fix the asphalt (and then fix it again
after the disturbed dirt settles).

If you really want to have fun, you can get a cement mixer attachment
for the dingo. It'll mix and pour 200lb (dry) batches.

On Jun 3, 3:54�am, hillpc wrote:
I'm making a home tennis court out of an asphalt paved area. �I've
already bought the net and posts. �The specified concrete footing for
each tennis net post is a 30" square at the bottom, tapering up over a
height of 42" into an 18" diameter circle at the top. A drawing is athttp://sportsbuilders.org/page.php?id=96&from[]=11&from[]=12&from[]=13&..
Could I use 3/4" plywood to make a form strong enough to contain this
much concrete without blowing out or breaking? I think the bigger job
may actually be cutting out a big enough square out of the asphalt
(32"?) so I can then rent a 30" auger to dig 42" deep, cut the corners
out to a square with a shovel, and then drop the empty form in, and
somehow hold it down while pouring the roughly ton of concrete into
each one. �After stripping the form, backfill with dirt and repair the
asphalt. �Any suggestions for me? �I'm thinking readymix concrete for
the little over 1 cubic yard I need to avoid all that mixing, and it's
probably cheaper than buying eighty 80" bags of concrete mix.
Sounds way over the top to me. It depends on your local ground
conditions.
Hard rocky ground would need nothing like this. Your hole does not
have to be accurate. In fact if it'a bit irregular it helps. The
round bit on top is just for appearance. The whole purpose of the
exercise is to keep the post vertical when you tension the net. It's
an award amount of concrete. A lot to mix by hand and a small amount
to have delivered. You could eke out the concrete by adding stones/
other hard rubble at intervals as you fill the hole.

I'm no tennis expert, but isn't most parking-grade asphalt a lousy court
surface? Not flat, not smooth, etc. The balls will bounce funny, etc. Or
are you going to put a sand bed and astro-turf/rubber mat *surface above it?


Yeah, I'm no expert either, and this is at least a start. I don't
know how much use it will actually get; time will tell. The most
experienced person in my family has only 2 years of high school tennis
experience. But I understand that people do commonly use asphalt, and
the more rigorous people put something on top, such as some kind of
sanded latex coating or other surfaces.

On Jun 2, 10:54*pm, hillpc wrote:
I'm making a home tennis court out of an asphalt paved area. *I've
already bought the net and posts. *The specified concrete footing for
each tennis net post is a 30" square at the bottom, tapering up over a
height of 42" into an 18" diameter circle at the top. A drawing is athttp://sportsbuilders.org/page.php?id=96&from[]=11&from[]=12&from[]=13&..
Could I use 3/4" plywood to make a form strong enough to contain this
much concrete without blowing out or breaking? I think the bigger job
may actually be cutting out a big enough square out of the asphalt
(32"?) so I can then rent a 30" auger to dig 42" deep, cut the corners
out to a square with a shovel, and then drop the empty form in, and
somehow hold it down while pouring the roughly ton of concrete into
each one. *After stripping the form, backfill with dirt and repair the
asphalt. *Any suggestions for me? *I'm thinking readymix concrete for
the little over 1 cubic yard I need to avoid all that mixing, and it's
probably cheaper than buying eighty 80" bags of concrete mix.

You don't need a form if you are digging a hole in the ground. I'd
just auger a 30" hole straight down and then fill it with concrete.
Having a slightly bigger top is not going to be an issue. Just set
the posts a little towards the insides.

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:54:53 -0700 (PDT), hillpc
wrote:

I'm making a home tennis court out of an asphalt paved area. I've
already bought the net and posts. The specified concrete footing for
each tennis net post is a 30" square at the bottom, tapering up over a
height of 42" into an 18" diameter circle at the top. A drawing is at
http://sportsbuilders.org/page.php?id=96&from[]=11&from[]=12&from[]=13&.
Could I use 3/4" plywood to make a form strong enough to contain this
much concrete without blowing out or breaking? I think the bigger job
may actually be cutting out a big enough square out of the asphalt
(32"?) so I can then rent a 30" auger to dig 42" deep, cut the corners
out to a square with a shovel, and then drop the empty form in, and
somehow hold it down while pouring the roughly ton of concrete into
each one. After stripping the form, backfill with dirt and repair the
asphalt. Any suggestions for me? I'm thinking readymix concrete for
the little over 1 cubic yard I need to avoid all that mixing, and it's
probably cheaper than buying eighty 80" bags of concrete mix.

As others say, I think you are overdoing it... The instructions (your
URL required some work to make it valid...) tell you what ideal should
be, but in all truth, if you followed their instructions the only
ideal thing you'd have was the cement. The rest of the court would be
questionable (flatness, quality of the surface, etc.)

I'd dig a cone shaped hole as they describe, 42" is not that bad. In
one similar job I did, I then took a heavy steel pipe (1 1/2", IIRC)
and pounded it into the earth at an angle towards the other side post.
That stiffened the entire thing so it never ever moved.

No form is necessary in the bottom of the footing. The earth retains the
concrete.
That is if the earth does not cave in. It may, and just use extra concrete.
The most important part is holding the sleeve or the post vertical. That is
easily done with 1x4's and stakes.
A plywood form in the hole is unnecessary. jloomis construction and
concrete
"hillpc" wrote in message
...
I'm making a home tennis court out of an asphalt paved area. I've
already bought the net and posts. The specified concrete footing for
each tennis net post is a 30" square at the bottom, tapering up over a
height of 42" into an 18" diameter circle at the top. A drawing is at
http://sportsbuilders.org/page.php?id=96&from[]=11&from[]=12&from[]=13&.
Could I use 3/4" plywood to make a form strong enough to contain this
much concrete without blowing out or breaking? I think the bigger job
may actually be cutting out a big enough square out of the asphalt
(32"?) so I can then rent a 30" auger to dig 42" deep, cut the corners
out to a square with a shovel, and then drop the empty form in, and
somehow hold it down while pouring the roughly ton of concrete into
each one. After stripping the form, backfill with dirt and repair the
asphalt. Any suggestions for me? I'm thinking readymix concrete for
the little over 1 cubic yard I need to avoid all that mixing, and it's
probably cheaper than buying eighty 80" bags of concrete mix.

So does anybody know what exactly is the purpose of the pyramid
shape? The round top is to prevent reflective cracking of the asphalt
above.

On Jun 3, 10:29*am, hillpc wrote:
So does anybody know what exactly is the purpose of the pyramid
shape? *The round top is to prevent reflective cracking of the asphalt
above.

From what I have heard, it is to keep the concrete from pushing up
during freezing weather. That's also why it recommended to dig holes
below the frost line.

Rob

hillpc wrote:
So does anybody know what exactly is the purpose of the pyramid
shape? ...

Surface area against the ground to counteract the tension force (induced
moment arm) at the top from the net. I don't have a computation nor
reference at hand but it's a non-trivial force...

--

So does anybody know what exactly is the purpose of the pyramid
shape?

Tapering or haunching a foundation is common for all sorts of foundations.
It's like adding a diagonal brace underground and makes it harder to pull
out (like a dovetail joint).

After taping big pieces of cardboard together to make a fullsize
mockup of the spec concrete footing (3 1/2 foot tall pyramid), I can
see it'd be quite an impressive mass that would do all the things you
have all mentioned. Thanks. And be a huge job. So now I'm looking
at using a guy wire to the top of the post to provide the resistance
to being pulled in (as volleyball nets and other applications do),
instead of that giant buried hunk of concrete. (I also printed out a
number of US patents for alternatives to buried footings for sports
nets. Some interesting ideas these people have had.) By modifying an
Oz-Post spike (a nice system for putting up fences and decks without
digging footing holes; I did a 600 foot wood fence with these a few
years ago), I might even be able to do this whole job with minimal, if
any, actual digging. The weight of the tennis post itself and half
the net is pretty small, less than 50 pounds, though if I use a guy
wire, that will end up pulling down on the post as well, adding to the
apparent "weight" needing to be supported. The angle of the guy wire
(its length to some kind of stake) determines this. The longer, the
less downpull, but I don't need people tripping over guy wires in my
yard. I'm mocking this up as well to see if guy wires can be lived
with.

On Jun 3, 11:29�am, hillpc wrote:
So does anybody know what exactly is the purpose of the pyramid
shape? �The round top is to prevent reflective cracking of the asphalt
above.

If you make the bottom wider than the top, you have something of an
anchor to prevent frost heave. It can't push out of the ground. I
was a little confused by the "upside down cone" mentioned earlier. I
believe you want to put it in "right side up" (wider base at the
bottom). That way when the ground shifts, it won't tilt or move.
But, as far as forms are concerned, I agree with the other poster that
they may not be necessary. If you dig a deep enough hole with a wide
base, it should be stable. Leaving forms in place after you pour the
concrete, or even having smooth sides on the concrete from forming,
may actually allow greater movement. Irregularities in the concrete
might help it to grip the earth better. Plus, if you are going to to
remove forms, you would have disturbed soil around it, which is less
stable for the post to anchor.

hillpc wrote:
....

... that will end up pulling down on the post as well, adding to the
apparent "weight" needing to be supported. The angle of the guy wire
(its length to some kind of stake) determines this. The longer, the
less downpull, ...

Yeah, but you have to have to get the resistance to the tension force
from _somewhere_; what's going to anchor the guy wire?

--

wrote:
On Jun 3, 11:29�am, hillpc wrote:
So does anybody know what exactly is the purpose of the pyramid
shape? �The round top is to prevent reflective cracking of the asphalt
above.

If you make the bottom wider than the top, you have something of an
anchor to prevent frost heave. It can't push out of the ground. I
was a little confused by the "upside down cone" mentioned earlier.

Hey, when I think of cones, I think of Ice Cream Cones. Wide end on top.
What can I say?

--
aem sends, suddenly craving one.....

On Jun 5, 4:12�pm, aemeijers wrote:
wrote:
On Jun 3, 11:29 am, hillpc wrote:
So does anybody know what exactly is the purpose of the pyramid
shape? The round top is to prevent reflective cracking of the asphalt
above.

If you make the bottom wider than the top, you have something of an
anchor to prevent frost heave. �It can't push out of the ground.. �I
was a little confused by the "upside down cone" mentioned earlier.

Hey, when I think of cones, I think of Ice Cream Cones. Wide end on top.
What can I say?

--
aem sends, suddenly craving one.....

OK, now I see. And now I want an ice cream cone...

As far as I can tell now, the pyramid shape is so that sideways
expansion of the soil/ice mixture above the frost line can't get a
frictional grip on the sides and pull it upwards as the soil/ice also
expands upwards. It's like using your 2 hands to squeeze a telephone
pole from the sides to get a grip while trying to lift it out. If the
telephone pole were shaped like a pyramid instead you couldn't get a
grip because your hands would slip upwards on it. This is also why
smooth concrete like that formed with Sonotubes resists uplift better;
it's too smooth to get a grip on.

Burying the bottom below the frost line means no ice can form to push
straight up on the base.

The very wide base also provides structural resistance to tipping,
since for the pyramid to tip over, the base has to be pushed down on
one side. The bigger the base, the more difficult it is to push it
down, since this requires compacting the soil under that side.

I'm thinking that the guy wire would have to be tied to the top of a
stake driven into the ground at an angle, so the guy wire would be
pulling directly sideways on the top of the stake. I've heard they do
this with circus tents.

On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 04:19:40 -0700 (PDT), hillpc
wrote:


I'm no tennis expert, but isn't most parking-grade asphalt a lousy court
surface? Not flat, not smooth, etc. The balls will bounce funny, etc. Or
are you going to put a sand bed and astro-turf/rubber mat *surface above it?


Yeah, I'm no expert either, and this is at least a start. I don't
know how much use it will actually get; time will tell. The most
experienced person in my family has only 2 years of high school tennis
experience. But I understand that people do commonly use asphalt, and
the more rigorous people put something on top, such as some kind of
sanded latex coating or other surfaces.

As a lifetime tennis player, I would not want to play on most asphalt
surfaces. Before you put a lot of work into something that will
disappoint, I'd put up a makeshift net and play a few games. I doubt
you will like the unpredictable bounce.

Post a closeup photo of the roughest part of the surface in the
playing area. Put a tennis ball and a quarter in the photo for
perspective.

Better yet, pour something small and spherical, like peas or BBs on
the surface and see how even that is. Taked a photo from the side.

Also, compare your surface with a local public court. I bet there's a
lot of difference. Even concrete courts are coated.

Someone suggested sand. I've played on courts that used sand. Hate
'em.

This is what you are looking for to surface your tennis court.

http://www.plexipave.com/



"Top Spin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 04:19:40 -0700 (PDT), hillpc
wrote:


I'm no tennis expert, but isn't most parking-grade asphalt a lousy court
surface? Not flat, not smooth, etc. The balls will bounce funny, etc. Or
are you going to put a sand bed and astro-turf/rubber mat surface above
it?


Yeah, I'm no expert either, and this is at least a start. I don't
know how much use it will actually get; time will tell. The most
experienced person in my family has only 2 years of high school tennis
experience. But I understand that people do commonly use asphalt, and
the more rigorous people put something on top, such as some kind of
sanded latex coating or other surfaces.

As a lifetime tennis player, I would not want to play on most asphalt
surfaces. Before you put a lot of work into something that will
disappoint, I'd put up a makeshift net and play a few games. I doubt
you will like the unpredictable bounce.

Post a closeup photo of the roughest part of the surface in the
playing area. Put a tennis ball and a quarter in the photo for
perspective.

Better yet, pour something small and spherical, like peas or BBs on
the surface and see how even that is. Taked a photo from the side.

Also, compare your surface with a local public court. I bet there's a
lot of difference. Even concrete courts are coated.

Someone suggested sand. I've played on courts that used sand. Hate
'em.