On 4/3/2010 8:23 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.



The shmear stuff is just half of it; you also have to use special
connectors that are approved for both AL and CU (I forget the exact
marking) Look for Ideal purple wire nuts.

Bob

On Apr 3, 7:42*pm, zxcvbob wrote:
On 4/3/2010 8:23 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:





So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.

The shmear stuff is just half of it; you also have to use special
connectors that are approved for both AL and CU (I forget the exact
marking) *Look for Ideal purple wire nuts.

Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And expect to pay near $3 per nut. But they come with the antioxidant
goop inside.

KC

So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 17:59:25 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/3/2010 4:42 PM zxcvbob spake thus:

On 4/3/2010 8:23 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.

The shmear stuff is just half of it; you also have to use special
connectors that are approved for both AL and CU (I forget the exact
marking) Look for Ideal purple wire nuts.

Interesting: the instructions for the goop just say to use it on all
wires and the connector, which I did. Isn't the metal inside regular
wire nuts steel or zinc, which should be compatible with both CU or AL?

If necessary I'll buy a "special" wire nut and replace it next time I go
back there.
From my understanding the "special nut" is just a nut with the sealer
in it for expediency.

On 4/3/2010 4:42 PM zxcvbob spake thus:

On 4/3/2010 8:23 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.

The shmear stuff is just half of it; you also have to use special
connectors that are approved for both AL and CU (I forget the exact
marking) Look for Ideal purple wire nuts.

Interesting: the instructions for the goop just say to use it on all
wires and the connector, which I did. Isn't the metal inside regular
wire nuts steel or zinc, which should be compatible with both CU or AL?

If necessary I'll buy a "special" wire nut and replace it next time I go
back there.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On 4/3/2010 7:18 PM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:37:26 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 17:59:25 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/3/2010 4:42 PM zxcvbob spake thus:

On 4/3/2010 8:23 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.

The shmear stuff is just half of it; you also have to use special
connectors that are approved for both AL and CU (I forget the exact
marking) Look for Ideal purple wire nuts.

Interesting: the instructions for the goop just say to use it on
all wires and the connector, which I did. Isn't the metal inside
regular wire nuts steel or zinc, which should be compatible with
both CU or AL?

If necessary I'll buy a "special" wire nut and replace it next
time I go back there.

From my understanding the "special nut" is just a nut with the sealer
in it for expediency.

You can read two different opinions about the Ideal 65 "twister"
The U/L says it is OK and the CSPC says it is a fire hazard.
The opinions spin off from there.
The other method available to the homeowner and most of the trade is
the King Innovation Alumicon device that is basically a 3 hole bus bar
with an insulating cover.

So what would you do if you needed to connect a CU pigtail to AL wiring?


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

David Nebenzahl wrote:
So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.

Aluminum wasn't used much for branch circuits until about 1965 when
copper prices went up. There were enough problems that about 1971 UL
removed the listing for wire, switches, receptacles, wire nuts, ... then
put out new standards. The new switches/receptacles are marked CO/ALR.
The vast majority of installed wire is the "old technology" stuff. Use
died out about 1973.

Because of the problems the CPSC started an investigation, and tests
were done which included thousands of connections in various
combinations. The engineer that was behind the testing has a paper on
aluminum connections at:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
One of the major problems in making connections, with both the new and
old wire, is thin oxide which is an insulator and rapidly forms on
'clean' aluminum. Many of the connection techniques involve both
antioxide paste and abrading the wire to remove the oxide.

For splices he recommends Alumicon connectors:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/produc...cts/alumiconn/
they are UL listed for aluminum (also in gfretwell's post).

The only other UL listed connector I know of is Ideal #65 wire nuts. The
author specifically is not fond of them. One reason, if I remember
right, is the metal the spring is made of. Details are in the paper.

Before Alumicon, the author had an older paper:
http://www.inspectapedia.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm#1C
which describes using other wire nuts and why he likes them better.
Since the other wire nuts are not listed for aluminum an inspector may
have problems. On the other hand, the recommendations are based on
comparative research using the wire that is actually out in the field.

The problems were only with 15 and 20A branch circuits. Aluminum is
often used in larger sizes like service wires. The connectors bite into
the aluminum, which as gfretwell notes is similar to what happens with
Alumicon.

--
bud--

bud--

On 4/4/2010 12:13 AM,
wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 20:48:15 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

You can read two different opinions about the Ideal 65 "twister"
The U/L says it is OK and the CSPC says it is a fire hazard.
The opinions spin off from there.
The other method available to the homeowner and most of the trade is
the King Innovation Alumicon device that is basically a 3 hole bus bar
with an insulating cover.

So what would you do if you needed to connect a CU pigtail to AL wiring?


I would use the alumicon device

The alumicon device is the same technology as the bus bars in your
panel and there has never been a problem with them.

Second choice would be the twister if it was a low current
application.
Another option if a receptacle is present is to use a CO/ALr device
with copper on one set of terminals and aluminum on the other.
If you are doing the whole house AMP/Tyco makes the CopAlum splicing
system that CPSC seems to like but it is a proprietary connector that
needs a special tool and a certified installer.
I have always been curious about the lobbying that took place when
CPSC said CopAlum was the only method they would endorse (prior to the
Alumicon)

Here's my take on the subject, from
someone that owned a house for 36 year
with several 15/12ga aluminum branch
circuits. When they 1st started having
problems in the early 70s, it was said
to used switches and receptacles rated
for Al. They then came out with the
CuAlr stuff. I don't know what the
older Al rated stuff was, but they said
the CuAlr was different. I know the
screws where bronzy looking. All of the
problems I saw, in my neighborhood, were
on circuits using the "push-ins" instead
of the screws to daisy chain outlet to
outlet. 3M, at the time, came out with
a wirenut that was listed as connecting
copper to aluminum. Also, the crimp
connector, mentioned in this thread, was
eventually claimed to be the only
acceptable way to deal with the problem.
That all said, I used the 3M wirenuts
(there was no goo in them) to pigtail
all my connections. I never had a
problem, but many people that never
touched their wiring didn't either.
The wirenuts produced today by 3M look
the same, but don't mention aluminum, as
far a I know. I have used the 3M units
in my house exclusively. I think,
emphasize think, most of the problem
where the push-in terminals. And, I
think, most of the bad press for the
push-ins was probably related to
aluminum wire usage. In my subdivision,
the early houses used aluminum with
push-ins: problems. The next vintage
house used them on regular outlets, but
on screws; I never heard of problems.
The 3rd vintage used CuAlr outlets;
never heard of problems. These are just
my random thoughts, YRMV from this.

That's pretty much what I've heard. That aluminum doesn't
like to be backstabbed.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
screws where bronzy looking. All of the
problems I saw, in my neighborhood, were
on circuits using the "push-ins" instead
of the screws to daisy chain outlet to
outlet. 3M, at the time, came out with

Yes, that Ox Gard (I fondly call it Ox Gored) is good stuff.
Also helps with copper connections, like outdoor electrical
work. I use it in my work, repairing outdoor equipment.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first
time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex
built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to
the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls
were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to
remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like
tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK,
clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a
day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to
attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply),
where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called
"Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit
corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like
roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:18:40 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:37:26 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 17:59:25 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/3/2010 4:42 PM zxcvbob spake thus:

On 4/3/2010 8:23 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.

The shmear stuff is just half of it; you also have to use special
connectors that are approved for both AL and CU (I forget the exact
marking) Look for Ideal purple wire nuts.

Interesting: the instructions for the goop just say to use it on all
wires and the connector, which I did. Isn't the metal inside regular
wire nuts steel or zinc, which should be compatible with both CU or AL?

If necessary I'll buy a "special" wire nut and replace it next time I go
back there.
From my understanding the "special nut" is just a nut with the sealer
in it for expediency.


You can read two different opinions about the Ideal 65 "twister"
The U/L says it is OK and the CSPC says it is a fire hazard.
The opinions spin off from there.
The other method available to the homeowner and most of the trade is
the King Innovation Alumicon device that is basically a 3 hole bus bar
with an insulating cover.
Then there are the stupidly expensive crimp-on copper pigtails ---

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 20:48:15 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/3/2010 7:18 PM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:37:26 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 17:59:25 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/3/2010 4:42 PM zxcvbob spake thus:

On 4/3/2010 8:23 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

So I finally saw my first aluminum wiring today.

Have heard about for years, of course, but this is the first time I'd
actually seen it in the wild. Working on an apt. complex built in the
late '70s; client asked me to wire the bath exhaust fan to the light
switch so the fan would come on with the light (bath walls were covered
with mildew, another of today's tasks of which was to remove).

Upon opening the box, I could see what at first looked like tinned
copper leads, but sure 'nuf, they were aluminum. So OK, clearly I wasn't
just going to put in a copper pigtail there and call it a day.

Thinking I had to buy some kind of special connector to attach the CU to
AL, I went to the local hardware store (Orchard Supply), where I was
shown a little tube of stuff from GB (Gardner Bender) called "Ox-Gard"
that you just schmear on the wires and connector to inhibit corrosion.
Cheap and a neat solution. (It's black. Looks kind of like roofing cement.)

So I actually learned something today.

The shmear stuff is just half of it; you also have to use special
connectors that are approved for both AL and CU (I forget the exact
marking) Look for Ideal purple wire nuts.

Interesting: the instructions for the goop just say to use it on
all wires and the connector, which I did. Isn't the metal inside
regular wire nuts steel or zinc, which should be compatible with
both CU or AL?

If necessary I'll buy a "special" wire nut and replace it next
time I go back there.

From my understanding the "special nut" is just a nut with the sealer
in it for expediency.

You can read two different opinions about the Ideal 65 "twister"
The U/L says it is OK and the CSPC says it is a fire hazard.
The opinions spin off from there.
The other method available to the homeowner and most of the trade is
the King Innovation Alumicon device that is basically a 3 hole bus bar
with an insulating cover.

So what would you do if you needed to connect a CU pigtail to AL wiring?
Use the Schmutz and a wire-nut. - or the Ideal "65"

On 4/3/2010 8:13 PM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 20:48:15 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

You can read two different opinions about the Ideal 65 "twister"
The U/L says it is OK and the CSPC says it is a fire hazard.
The opinions spin off from there.
The other method available to the homeowner and most of the trade is
the King Innovation Alumicon device that is basically a 3 hole bus bar
with an insulating cover.

So what would you do if you needed to connect a CU pigtail to AL wiring?


I would use the alumicon device

Except that this is inside a *switch box*, remember? Fully populated
with two duplex devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires,
so no room for such a device.

The alumicon device is the same technology as the bus bars in your
panel and there has never been a problem with them.

Second choice would be the twister if it was a low current
application.

Well, I guess it's low current: one wall light fixture and a ceiling fan.

Anyhoo, I used the wire nut + goop approach.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On 4/4/2010 6:07 AM Stormin Mormon spake thus:

Yes, that Ox Gard (I fondly call it Ox Gored) is good stuff.

Getting biblical here, it all depends on whose ox is being gored, right?


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

But, of course. I'd have thought that the ox is the creature
doing the goring. The victim, naturally would be someone
like a Mexican torreador, or the american tax payer, or
someone relatively innocent.

In any case, it's good for aluminum wire, and many other
applications. I've been known to put a shot of Ox Gored on
copper connections, when exposed to the weather. I do work
on outdoor equipment. It's some what protected, but not
totally.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 4/4/2010 6:07 AM Stormin Mormon spake thus:

Yes, that Ox Gard (I fondly call it Ox Gored) is good
stuff.

Getting biblical here, it all depends on whose ox is being
gored, right?


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On Apr 4, 4:30*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Except that this is inside a *switch box*, remember? Fully populated
with two duplex devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires,
so no room for such a device.


If there is not enough room inside the electrical box that is in
place,
then replace that box with a larger one which has more room in it...

If the walls are open you have many ways you could deal with this...

A 4" square box with a 2-gang trim ring sounds like a good idea
if you have the wall open and need more room inside than a standard
switch box...

~ Evan

Art Todesco wrote:

All of the
problems I saw, in my neighborhood, were on circuits using the
"push-ins" instead of the screws to daisy chain outlet to outlet.

Far as I know, backstabs were never approved for use with aluminum. They
have enough problems with copper - they should never be used with
aluminum. You can't use the ones available now because the #12 aluminum
wire used for 15A circuits doesn't fit any more.

The wirenuts produced today by 3M look the same, but don't mention
aluminum, as far a I know. I have used the 3M units in my house
exclusively.

UL changed the standards about 1971. I don't know if 3M was listed for
aluminum before, but only Ideal 65 wirenuts are now (and Alumicon, which
is not a wire nut).

From extensive testing on aluminum connections, 3M Scotchlocks were
recommended, used with antioxide paste and techniques detailed in
http://www.inspectapedia.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm#1C
The author says that Alumicon, a newer product, is better.

--
bud--

On 4/5/2010 2:04 AM Evan spake thus:

On Apr 4, 4:30 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Except that this is inside a *switch box*, remember? Fully populated
with two duplex devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires,
so no room for such a device.

That's a *totally ridiculous* suggestion. Do you even think before you
start typing?

The customer--my client--owns an apartment building built in the late
1970s. He's not about to have me rip out a perfectly sound switchbox in
the bathroom just to accomodate your idea of the proper fix.

Sheesh.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On Apr 5, 2:16*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/5/2010 2:04 AM Evan spake thus:

On Apr 4, 4:30 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Except that this is inside a *switch box*, remember? Fully populated
with two duplex devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires,
so no room for such a device.

That's a *totally ridiculous* suggestion. Do you even think before you
start typing?

The customer--my client--owns an apartment building built in the late
1970s. He's not about to have me rip out a perfectly sound switchbox in
the bathroom just to accomodate your idea of the proper fix.

Sheesh.

--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"


You said you required more space in the box to utilize the devices
recommended by another poster's method of making the Cu-Al
connection...

It is NOT ridiculous to suggest a larger size electrical box when
you have one that is as you put it: "Fully populated with two duplex
devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires, so no
room for such a device." which would raise concerns over whether
the existing box being used is of adequate size to begin with...

Your customer trusts that you know what you are doing, which
may have to include upgrading the "perfectly good switchbox"
that is in place now for one that is the proper size needed to
accommodate safely connecting the two types of wiring using
currently approved methods...

~ Evan

On 4/5/2010 2:59 PM Evan spake thus:

On Apr 5, 2:16 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/5/2010 2:04 AM Evan spake thus:

On Apr 4, 4:30 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Except that this is inside a *switch box*, remember? Fully populated
with two duplex devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires,
so no room for such a device.

That's a *totally ridiculous* suggestion. Do you even think before you
start typing?

The customer--my client--owns an apartment building built in the late
1970s. He's not about to have me rip out a perfectly sound switchbox in
the bathroom just to accomodate your idea of the proper fix.

Sheesh.

You said you required more space in the box to utilize the devices
recommended by another poster's method of making the Cu-Al
connection...

It is NOT ridiculous to suggest a larger size electrical box when
you have one that is as you put it: "Fully populated with two duplex
devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires, so no
room for such a device." which would raise concerns over whether
the existing box being used is of adequate size to begin with...

Your customer trusts that you know what you are doing, which
may have to include upgrading the "perfectly good switchbox"
that is in place now for one that is the proper size needed to
accommodate safely connecting the two types of wiring using
currently approved methods...

Except that a new box is *totally unnecessary*, as Ideal 65 wirenuts are
approved and perfectly suitable for the need here (AL/CU connections)
and don't take up enough space to warrant a new box. Why are you
assuming that I need to use the bulky connector suggested by someone
else here?


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:01:39 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/5/2010 2:59 PM Evan spake thus:

On Apr 5, 2:16 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/5/2010 2:04 AM Evan spake thus:

On Apr 4, 4:30 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Except that this is inside a *switch box*, remember? Fully populated
with two duplex devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires,
so no room for such a device.

That's a *totally ridiculous* suggestion. Do you even think before you
start typing?

The customer--my client--owns an apartment building built in the late
1970s. He's not about to have me rip out a perfectly sound switchbox in
the bathroom just to accomodate your idea of the proper fix.

Sheesh.

You said you required more space in the box to utilize the devices
recommended by another poster's method of making the Cu-Al
connection...

It is NOT ridiculous to suggest a larger size electrical box when
you have one that is as you put it: "Fully populated with two duplex
devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires, so no
room for such a device." which would raise concerns over whether
the existing box being used is of adequate size to begin with...

Your customer trusts that you know what you are doing, which
may have to include upgrading the "perfectly good switchbox"
that is in place now for one that is the proper size needed to
accommodate safely connecting the two types of wiring using
currently approved methods...

Except that a new box is *totally unnecessary*, as Ideal 65 wirenuts are
approved and perfectly suitable for the need here (AL/CU connections)
and don't take up enough space to warrant a new box. Why are you
assuming that I need to use the bulky connector suggested by someone
else here?

May be I should not poke my nose in here but I googled on Ideal 65
wirenuts and found some bad comments.
"
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 229
Default
ashtrak,

Please, please, please, do not do this job. You obvioulsy have a lot
to learn.

First of all, the purple wire nut method has been proven to be as
dangerous if not more than the original wiring. This is because the
compound inside the wire nut is flammable. Those wire nuts are for
TEMPORARY repairs only!

Secondly, EVERY termination in the home should be repaired. If you
leave one termination unrepaired, you have not resolved the problem
with the aluminum wiring in the home. That could be the one
termination that fails. So this now includes all recepts, lights,
switches, dishwasher, disposal, water heater, A/C unit, range hood
fan, recessed lighting, junction boxes in the attic, and all other
terminations.

Thirdly, aluminum wiring is very delicate. If you haven't worked with
it before, you must take great care in both stripping and splicing the
wire. Even a small knick in the wire may be a point for future
failure.

Fourthly, I imagine that you will be attempting this without a permit
and given the information above, you will be putting the homeowner and
yourself at a great liability if your "repairs" were to fail. Someone
could be seriously injured or killed, then if you are lucky, only a
lawyer (not a city prosecutor) will be showing up at your door to tell
you all what you did wrong.

Lastly, well I won't even get into your pricing strategy.

Please think again about this repair. Let a professional that is
experienced in the repair of aluminum wiring upgrade this home.

just passing it along
email response not expected but to respond remove .uk at end
TIA
Hank

On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 11:15:58 -0400, Hank
wrote:


May be I should not poke my nose in here but I googled on Ideal 65
wirenuts and found some bad comments.
"
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 229
Default
ashtrak,

You can google ANYTHING and find bad comments.

On 4/6/2010 8:15 AM Hank spake thus:

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:01:39 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/5/2010 2:59 PM Evan spake thus:

On Apr 5, 2:16 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/5/2010 2:04 AM Evan spake thus:

On Apr 4, 4:30 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Except that this is inside a *switch box*, remember? Fully populated
with two duplex devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires,
so no room for such a device.

That's a *totally ridiculous* suggestion. Do you even think before you
start typing?

The customer--my client--owns an apartment building built in the late
1970s. He's not about to have me rip out a perfectly sound switchbox in
the bathroom just to accomodate your idea of the proper fix.

Sheesh.

You said you required more space in the box to utilize the devices
recommended by another poster's method of making the Cu-Al
connection...

It is NOT ridiculous to suggest a larger size electrical box when
you have one that is as you put it: "Fully populated with two duplex
devices (receptacles and switches) and a bunch of wires, so no
room for such a device." which would raise concerns over whether
the existing box being used is of adequate size to begin with...

Your customer trusts that you know what you are doing, which
may have to include upgrading the "perfectly good switchbox"
that is in place now for one that is the proper size needed to
accommodate safely connecting the two types of wiring using
currently approved methods...

Except that a new box is *totally unnecessary*, as Ideal 65
wirenuts are approved and perfectly suitable for the need here
(AL/CU connections) and don't take up enough space to warrant a new
box. Why are you assuming that I need to use the bulky connector
suggested by someone else here?

May be I should not poke my nose in here but I googled on Ideal 65
wirenuts and found some bad comments.
"
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 229
Default
ashtrak,

Please, please, please, do not do this job. You obvioulsy have a lot
to learn.

First of all, the purple wire nut method has been proven to be as
dangerous if not more than the original wiring. This is because the
compound inside the wire nut is flammable. Those wire nuts are for
TEMPORARY repairs only!

[snip report]

Yes, I read similar comments on a site given as a link somewhere
up-thread of this. The goop is flammable, as is the wirenut itself.

Rest easy. I didn't actually use an Ideal 65. I used an ordinary wirenut
with Ox-Gard liberally applied (which is not flammable so far as I know).


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"