On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , "chaniarts" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

wrote
Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the
ramp
up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
nothing.

Where is the heat wasted? If the house is constantly losing heat on a cold
day, the heat from the radiator is just helping to maintain it for a longer
time between cycles. The perfect system it to balance the heat loss with
the heat makeup of the radiators to maintain a perfect temperature all the
time.

In article , " wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article
,
harry wrote:


Radiators made in Europe are indeed made of pressed steel. Cast
iron
radiators went out in the 1950's. They rely on the water inside
being
chemically treated to prevent corrosion.

Untrue. In a closed system, once all of the dissolved oxygen
reacts with the
iron, no further oxidation will take place (unless additional
oxygen is
introduced later).

The cast iron radiators are most likely used on a single pipe
system, along with an open sump. Air is introduced at the sump
and if the water isn't treated, it can cause excessive rusting.
Yes, closed systems are different, though.

--
Nonny


Luxury cars now offer a great seating option for politicians.
These seats blow heated air onto their backside in the winter and
cooled air in the summer. If sold to voters, though, the car
seats
are modified to just blow smoke up the voter’s rump year-round

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:13:04 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



wrote
Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the
ramp
up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
nothing.

Where is the heat wasted?

Heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference. If you leave the
difference higher, longer, the loss is more than it would have been if the
temperature came down more quickly. Nothing for nothing.

If the house is constantly losing heat on a cold
day, the heat from the radiator is just helping to maintain it for a longer
time between cycles. The perfect system it to balance the heat loss with
the heat makeup of the radiators to maintain a perfect temperature all the
time.

The higher the temperature (difference) the higher the loss.

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:13:04 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:



wrote
Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the
ramp
up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
nothing.

Where is the heat wasted?

Heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference. If you leave the
difference higher, longer, the loss is more than it would have been if the
temperature came down more quickly. Nothing for nothing.

If the house is constantly losing heat on a cold
day, the heat from the radiator is just helping to maintain it for a
longer
time between cycles. The perfect system it to balance the heat loss with
the heat makeup of the radiators to maintain a perfect temperature all the
time.

The higher the temperature (difference) the higher the loss.

OK, that is true and complies with the laws of physics. But where is the
waste? If I keep my house at 70 with copper, I use the same heat as keeping
my house at 70 with cast iron, cast aluminum, or hollow chicken bones. 70
degrees is 70 degrees and it takes the same Btu to maintain that temperature
over outside ambient no matter the source.


Only way you'd have waste from the higher heat loss is if the temperature
inside overshot the thermostat. That is the fault of system design or bad
equipment, not the heat transfer material. Cast iron allows for a nice
steady heat.

I don't see any loss.

In article , " wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide
(white). they just don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and
aluminum *oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

hmm. webster at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rust 1b doesn't
agree with you. i think you need to take it up with them

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide
(white). they just don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and
aluminum *oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

really? aluminim oxide can be formed as a powder, which is pretty porous.
never had a pinhole in copper pipe show green, and still leak?

In article , "chaniarts" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide
(white). they just don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and
aluminum *oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

hmm. webster at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rust 1b doesn't
agree with you. i think you need to take it up with them


Nice try. It says "comparable coating". Copper oxide and aluminum oxide aren't
even remotely similar to rust.

On Mar 11, 9:56*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , harry wrote:



Radiators made in Europe are indeed made of pressed steel. *Cast iron
radiators went out in the 1950's. They rely on the water inside being
chemically treated to prevent corrosion.

Untrue. In a closed system, once all of the dissolved oxygen reacts with the
iron, no further oxidation will take place (unless additional oxygen is
introduced later).

Unfortunately not true. Due to the dissimilar metals in the system,
electrolytic corrosion takes place without oxygen, the results are
black iron oxide and hydrogen gas.
Due to the development of condensing boilers made of aluminium/
stainless steel the problem is worse than ever. Chemicals to prevent
this are vital in such a system.

On Mar 11, 9:54*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all, actually.

*There are lots
of disadvantages. *As they are made in sections they often leak if
taken out and the joints are stressed.

Yeah, that's a pretty frequent occurrence, too, taking them out and stressing
the joints.

They are very expensive and
labour intensive to make.

What planet did you grow up on?

They heat up and cool slowly due to their
mass.

That is one of the biggest advantages.

Not true. Well maybe in America where things are still primitive.

On Mar 11, 10:12*pm, Tony wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:13 pm, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:
willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:
The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them). * * * * * *
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.
They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.
Some do. Many don't.
Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.
I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. *Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.
I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system
Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.
Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems. *
Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! *I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+. *And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F, and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. *How do you do it? *You are
todays Einstein!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are showing your ignorance here. *The temperature of steam depends
on it's pressure. *That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
pressure. *If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
The upper limit can be as high as you like.

I thought we were talking about a one pipe system? *Maybe that was
another thread, maybe not??- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are such things as one pipe steam heating sytems where the steam
pipe is run to fall back from the radiators to the steam boiler. The
condensate runs in the opposite direction to the steam flow (in the
same pipe) back to the boiler.
I think they were popular in America at one time I think.
It's a simple sytem but control is poor and noises are often
generated. The steam pressure is low, the boiler is usually cast iron
and extremely inefficient.

On Mar 11, 10:00*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , harry wrote:

You are showing your ignorance here. *The temperature of steam depends
on it's pressure. *That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
pressure. *If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
The upper limit can be as high as you like.

How many steam heating systems are you aware of that operate at, or below,
atmospheric pressure? Please cite specific examples.

I ran a huge sytem personally before I retired. Steam raised was used
to generate electricity. The exhaust steam from the turbines was used
for heating with direct steam radiators. The pressure in them was 0.6
bar (absolute) ie -8psi in your parlance.

On Mar 11, 11:08*pm, "
wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:45:48 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:





On Mar 11, 4:16*am, "
wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:13:27 -0500, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:

willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote the following:

In article , willshak

wrote:

The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them). * * * * * *
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.

They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.

Some do. Many don't.

Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.

I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. *Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.

I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.

Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems. *

Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! *I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+.

I see you're illiterate, as well as being stupid as a stump.

And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F

Bull****. *Most are set for 180F to 200F. *The higher the temperature the
higher the efficiency.

and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. *

Of course you're a liar, too.

How do you do it? *You are todays Einstein!

With you as a reference, I can see how you would come to that conclusion.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Afraid not. Lower temperature systems have a higher efficiency.

Wrong. *In this case, the gas fire is hotter than the loop. *You want the loop
to be as hot as possible to minimize the heat lost in the heat exchanger. Heat
pumps operate at a lower temperature for similar reasons (lower delta-T).

BTW, there are no efficient heating systems in America.

Now you're just being stupid.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hall marks of efficiency are the three T's. Time, turbulence and
Temperature difference.
The lower the temperature of the heating medium (ie water in this
case), the greater the energy transferred from the burning fuel to
that medium.
For an excercise, explain the other two T's.

I had a look round the last time I was in America. Appalling. You
are thirty years behind European standards.

On Mar 12, 10:56*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote in message

...





On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:13:04 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

wrote
Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. *;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. *Waiting for the
ramp
up, your cold. *On the way down, you've wasted that heat. *Nothing for
nothing.

Where is the heat wasted?

Heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference. *If you leave the
difference higher, longer, the loss is more than it would have been if the
temperature came down more quickly. *Nothing for nothing.

If the house is constantly losing heat on a cold
day, the heat from the radiator is just helping to maintain it for a
longer
time between cycles. *The perfect system it to balance the heat loss with
the heat makeup of the radiators to maintain a perfect temperature all the
time.

The higher the temperature (difference) the higher the loss.

OK, that is true and complies with the laws of physics. *But where is the
waste? *If I keep my house at 70 with copper, I use the same heat as keeping
my house at 70 with cast iron, cast aluminum, or hollow chicken bones. *70
degrees is 70 degrees and it takes the same Btu to maintain that temperature
over outside ambient no matter the source.

Only way you'd have waste from the higher heat loss is if the temperature
inside overshot the thermostat. That is the fault of system design or bad
equipment, not the heat transfer material. *Cast iron allows for a nice
steady heat.

I don't see any loss.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The loss arises through the overshoot. If you have a sytem that can
exactly matches heat requirements its possible to make very
significant savings.10-15% would be pretty typical.

In article , harry wrote:
On Mar 11, 9:54=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .=
com, harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all, actually.

=A0There are lots
of disadvantages. =A0As they are made in sections they often leak if
taken out and the joints are stressed.

Yeah, that's a pretty frequent occurrence, too, taking them out and stres=
sing
the joints.

They are very expensive and
labour intensive to make.

What planet did you grow up on?

They heat up and cool slowly due to their
mass.

That is one of the biggest advantages.

Not true. Well maybe in America where things are still primitive.

sigh obviously you're not worth responding to.

harry wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:12 pm, Tony wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:13 pm, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:
willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:
The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them).
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.
They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.
Some do. Many don't.
Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.
I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.
I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system
Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.
Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems.
Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+. And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F, and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. How do you do it? You are
todays Einstein!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You are showing your ignorance here. The temperature of steam depends
on it's pressure. That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
pressure. If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
The upper limit can be as high as you like.
I thought we were talking about a one pipe system? Maybe that was
another thread, maybe not??- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are such things as one pipe steam heating sytems where the steam
pipe is run to fall back from the radiators to the steam boiler. The
condensate runs in the opposite direction to the steam flow (in the
same pipe) back to the boiler.
I think they were popular in America at one time I think.
It's a simple sytem but control is poor and noises are often
generated. The steam pressure is low, the boiler is usually cast iron
and extremely inefficient.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. With steam coming out some of the
radiators. It's always above atmospheric pressure, not much, I think 2
to 5 pounds. Pipes clang away. I worked at a place that had that heat
about 25 years ago and while I was there he had a new boiler installed.
The old boiler was very inefficient, originally coal converted to oil.
The new boiler was about 1/4 the size and paid for itself in about 3
years.

chaniarts wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.
As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.
huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide
(white). they just don't rust orange like iron does.
Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and
aluminum *oxidize*, but only iron can rust.
Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

really? aluminim oxide can be formed as a powder, which is pretty porous.
never had a pinhole in copper pipe show green, and still leak?


In the house I grew up in my father had to open up a wall to find a
leak. A leak in a copper pipe, lot's of green. I think it went way
past the point of a pinhole and couldn't seal itself anymore.

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:56:38 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:13:04 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:



wrote
Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the
ramp
up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
nothing.

Where is the heat wasted?

Heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference. If you leave the
difference higher, longer, the loss is more than it would have been if the
temperature came down more quickly. Nothing for nothing.

If the house is constantly losing heat on a cold
day, the heat from the radiator is just helping to maintain it for a
longer
time between cycles. The perfect system it to balance the heat loss with
the heat makeup of the radiators to maintain a perfect temperature all the
time.

The higher the temperature (difference) the higher the loss.

OK, that is true and complies with the laws of physics. But where is the
waste? If I keep my house at 70 with copper, I use the same heat as keeping
my house at 70 with cast iron, cast aluminum, or hollow chicken bones. 70
degrees is 70 degrees and it takes the same Btu to maintain that temperature
over outside ambient no matter the source.

If you can absolutely keep the temperature constant, you're right, the
material doesn't matter. Cast iron has no benefit, then, either. Symmetry.

Only way you'd have waste from the higher heat loss is if the temperature
inside overshot the thermostat. That is the fault of system design or bad
equipment, not the heat transfer material. Cast iron allows for a nice
steady heat.

If your temperature is perfectly constant cast iron does *not* "allow for a
nice steady heat". It doesn't matter.

I don't see any loss.

You're not seeing the whole picture. You've simplified the world until it
doesn't matter and then claim that it does. shrug

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:03:15 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Except that the systems aren't sealed. The oxygen is never "used up".

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:41:25 -0700, "chaniarts"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide
(white). they just don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and
aluminum *oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

really? aluminim oxide can be formed as a powder, which is pretty porous.

Really. Aluminum oxide is impervious to oxygen. Aluminum will only oxidize
on the surface. Scratch a hunk of aluminum and it'll get shiny, for a couple
of minutes.

never had a pinhole in copper pipe show green, and still leak?

I had a nail hole turn green and leak. The nail was on the inside. :-(

In article , " wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:03:15 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Except that the systems aren't sealed. The oxygen is never "used up".

Most are, in fact, closed systems.

wrote

If you can absolutely keep the temperature constant, you're right, the
material doesn't matter. Cast iron has no benefit, then, either.
Symmetry.

The benefit is that cast iron allows you to maintain the symmetry easier
with thermal mass.




If your temperature is perfectly constant cast iron does *not* "allow for
a
nice steady heat". It doesn't matter.


That has not been my experience. Heat source materials are only part of the
system, you need a proper thermostat and water pumps too.


I don't see any loss.

You're not seeing the whole picture. You've simplified the world until it
doesn't matter and then claim that it does. shrug

It was simple all along. You are trying to make a simple thing complex. How
much heat loss is there if you overshoot the temperature by one degree?
Given your insistence, you must have some numbers on this.

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:16:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



wrote

If you can absolutely keep the temperature constant, you're right, the
material doesn't matter. Cast iron has no benefit, then, either.
Symmetry.

The benefit is that cast iron allows you to maintain the symmetry easier
with thermal mass.

Symmetry doesn't get "maintained", it *is*.

If your temperature is perfectly constant cast iron does *not* "allow for
a
nice steady heat". It doesn't matter.


That has not been my experience. Heat source materials are only part of the
system, you need a proper thermostat and water pumps too.

Your "experience" is wrong. Physics doesn't allow it.

I don't see any loss.

You're not seeing the whole picture. You've simplified the world until it
doesn't matter and then claim that it does. shrug

It was simple all along. You are trying to make a simple thing complex. How
much heat loss is there if you overshoot the temperature by one degree?
Given your insistence, you must have some numbers on this.

YOU are evidently too simple to understand it. TANSTAAFL.

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 02:33:59 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:03:15 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Except that the systems aren't sealed. The oxygen is never "used up".

Most are, in fact, closed systems.

Wrong. Most hydronic systems have automatic fill valves, mostly because they
need them.

wrote
YOU are evidently too simple to understand it. TANSTAAFL.

When you cant explain something, use a personal attack. Thank you for
showing your true self.

In article , " wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 02:33:59 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:03:15 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they
just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Except that the systems aren't sealed. The oxygen is never "used up".

Most are, in fact, closed systems.

Wrong. Most hydronic systems have automatic fill valves, mostly because they
need them.

Keeping them open all the time is the way things used to be done. Accepted
best practice now is to keep them closed except when it's actually necessary
to add water to the system -- which is fairly rare, in a well-maintained
system. If you need to keep adding water to a hydronic system, you have a leak
somewhere.

On Mar 13, 1:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , " wrote:





On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 02:33:59 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:03:15 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they
just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). *Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Except that the systems aren't sealed. The oxygen is never "used up".

Most are, in fact, closed systems.

Wrong. *Most hydronic systems have automatic fill valves, mostly because they
need them.

Keeping them open all the time is the way things used to be done. Accepted
best practice now is to keep them closed except when it's actually necessary
to add water to the system -- which is fairly rare, in a well-maintained
system. If you need to keep adding water to a hydronic system, you have a leak
somewhere.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There's a lot of people here can't grasp the fact that oxygen in the
water is not the problem. Dissimilar metals are the problem. You have
in effect a battery. Electric currents are circulating in the
pipework.
Apart from adding anti corrosion chemicals, the other method of
control is to install a "sacrificial anode", usually made of
magnesium. This rots away instead of the pipe system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:27:25 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



wrote
YOU are evidently too simple to understand it. TANSTAAFL.

When you cant explain something, use a personal attack. Thank you for
showing your true self.

You demonstrated your understanding of physics; simple. I just stated that
fact. Sorry if what I say on the Usenet upsets you. Perhaps you should be
somewhere else.

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:24:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 02:33:59 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:03:15 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they
just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Except that the systems aren't sealed. The oxygen is never "used up".

Most are, in fact, closed systems.

Wrong. Most hydronic systems have automatic fill valves, mostly because they
need them.

Keeping them open all the time is the way things used to be done. Accepted
best practice now is to keep them closed except when it's actually necessary
to add water to the system -- which is fairly rare, in a well-maintained
system. If you need to keep adding water to a hydronic system, you have a leak
somewhere.

The leak would show. Nope. Fill valves need to be left open to insure the
proper pressure on the system.

In article , " wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:24:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 02:33:59 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:03:15 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they
just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and
aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Except that the systems aren't sealed. The oxygen is never "used up".

Most are, in fact, closed systems.

Wrong. Most hydronic systems have automatic fill valves, mostly because they
need them.

Keeping them open all the time is the way things used to be done. Accepted
best practice now is to keep them closed except when it's actually necessary
to add water to the system -- which is fairly rare, in a well-maintained
system. If you need to keep adding water to a hydronic system, you have a leak
somewhere.

The leak would show. Nope. Fill valves need to be left open to insure the
proper pressure on the system.

That simply isn't true. Once the system is filled and pressurized, it will
remain at that pressure when the fill valve is closed -- unless there's a
leak.

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:35:41 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:24:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 02:33:59 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:03:15 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:34:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:27:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "chaniarts"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they
just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and
aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.

Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.

We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.

Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.

Except that the systems aren't sealed. The oxygen is never "used up".

Most are, in fact, closed systems.

Wrong. Most hydronic systems have automatic fill valves, mostly because they
need them.

Keeping them open all the time is the way things used to be done. Accepted
best practice now is to keep them closed except when it's actually necessary
to add water to the system -- which is fairly rare, in a well-maintained
system. If you need to keep adding water to a hydronic system, you have a leak
somewhere.

The leak would show. Nope. Fill valves need to be left open to insure the
proper pressure on the system.

That simply isn't true. Once the system is filled and pressurized, it will
remain at that pressure when the fill valve is closed -- unless there's a
leak.

Automatic bleeders.

In article , " wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:35:41 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:

The leak would show. Nope. Fill valves need to be left open to insure the
proper pressure on the system.

That simply isn't true. Once the system is filled and pressurized, it will
remain at that pressure when the fill valve is closed -- unless there's a
leak.

Automatic bleeders.

If there's no air in the system, there's nothing to bleed.