zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:15:29 -0800 (PST), mike
wrote:

On Mar 8, 9:49 am, Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
I've read about the Scandinavian or Finnish style fireplaces that have a
huge mass of masonry which does the same darn thing. I've always thought
that if I were to ever build a home, I would want such a fireplace. Add
a bit of hysteresis to the heating cycle and keep things comfortable.
The only problem is they take a long time before putting out any real
heat. Maybe a fire all day until the mass of masonry gets hot. The
more mass, the longer it will take. Also the more mass, the more even
the heating will be.
Agreed. I don't like heating systems with a large lag factor. I want
instant heat when I want heat, and when things are warm enough, I
don't want the system to keep pumping out heat.

Right. Cast iron isn't worth its hype. Copper/aluminum is the way to go for
homes (cast iron is more rugged for commercial use).

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.

If your schedule is erratic, yes, stick to light weight copper/aluminum.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:31:51 -0500, Tony wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
Finally, a correct answer.
I guess majoring in physics wasn't useless after all. *snicker*
Guess not. But, yes, you hit the nail on the head. The principal advantage of
cast iron radiators is that they retain heat very well, which provides a much
more even heat than the aluminum fin-tube radiators do.
The aluminum fin baseboard "radiators" are actually "convectors", not
radiators. Most of the heat from them is cold air going in the bottom
and warm air coming out the top, known as a "convection current". If
you sit in front, 2 feet away, you won't feel the heat on your body like
you do if you sit in front of a radiator. Radiators also have
convection currents but not nearly the same as a convector.

Nope. I this sense they're both "convectors". A "radiator" (without
convection) wouldn't be at all efficient. The source temperature would have
to be much too high.

Yes, heating systems with radiators normally run at higher temps then
convectors. Besides, Google is your friend. Do a search for
"baseboard convectors".

Here is some more for you!

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...ator-heat.aspx

"A: Mark Eatherton, a plumbing and heating contractor in Denver,
Colorado, replies: Radiators and baseboard convectors both depend on hot
water as their heat source. The similarity stops there. As their name
implies, radiators deliver heat in the form of radiant energy. In other
words, the energy from a radiator travels through the air without
heating the air until it strikes a solid object. The object is warmed,
which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator’s primary function
is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.

Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off. In some cases,
they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
minimal compared with their overall output potential."

willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote the following:

In article , willshak

wrote:


The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them).
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.


They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.

Some do. Many don't.


Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.

I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.


I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.



Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system


Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.

Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
willshak wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote the following:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another
metal? Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to
deal with.

Thanks in advance,

Sam

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.

TDD
The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them). They have enclosures especially
built for them which also helps with the ugly part.
Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.


When I was a kid and an inmate at the Catholic Parochial Gulag back
in the middle of the last century, the building had radiators with
hissing contraptions on the top side that reminded me of the valve
on a pressure cooker. If I remember right, there was steam coming
out of the thing that could very well have contributed to keeping
the humidity up in the building.

TDD

It's called "steam heat".

I think the nuns were trying to cook us.

TDD

That I don't doubt. On second thought, I don't think they would cook
you all the way, because then they couldn't torture you anymore.

Were you a fellow sufferer of the slings and arrows of the crazy women?

TDD

Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , dpb wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , dpb

wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
....


Nothing there says that radiators get hotter than what's circulated through

them. Do you contend that they can?

Where on earth did you get such a notion that any other poster had any
idea they get hotter than supply?

All he said was that they are hot surfaces and small persons should be
kept away -- which is all true (particularly if steam heat as opposed to
hot water, the surface temperature may be pretty hot on full flow).

He said they were extremely hot, or some such -- which is *not* true of most
hot-water systems.

Well, that isn't saying they're hotter than the water is it?

And, it then depends on the definition of what one means by "extremely"
and I'd give the other guy the benefit of the doubt...all one has to do
is have a recollection as a little kid at grandma's house and you'll be
convinced for life (and you _can_ amhikt).


The point is that cast iron radiators are not inherently dangerous, as
willshak erroneously stated. It's _steam heat_ that's (potentially) dangerous.


In my very first message I said STEAM radiators. I never said HOT WATER
radiators, but somehow you seem to have missed that.
"I was brought up in homes with STEAM radiators in NYC".
Then, in my response to you. where you somehow read STEAM as HOT WATER,
I said
"STEAM" was the main heating source for many homes and buildings".
Yet you still contend that I am talking about HOT WATER.
Do you deny that a STEAM radiator, which you have obviously have never
seen or heard of, can get much hotter than a HOT WATER radiator?
http://images.google.com/images?q=st...N&hl=en&tab=wi
or http://tinyurl.com/yb5uzcm
Your turn to try to save face again, Go.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 02:27:25 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:15:29 -0800 (PST), mike
wrote:

On Mar 8, 9:49*am, Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

I've read about the Scandinavian or Finnish style fireplaces that have a
huge mass of masonry which does the same darn thing. I've always thought
that if I were to ever build a home, I would want such a fireplace. Add
a bit of hysteresis to the heating cycle and keep things comfortable.

The only problem is they take a long time before putting out any real
heat. *Maybe a fire all day until the mass of masonry gets hot. *The
more mass, the longer it will take. *Also the more mass, the more even
the heating will be.

Agreed. I don't like heating systems with a large lag factor. I want
instant heat when I want heat, and when things are warm enough, I
don't want the system to keep pumping out heat.

Right. Cast iron isn't worth its hype. Copper/aluminum is the way to go for
homes (cast iron is more rugged for commercial use).

Missing the point, both of you. The "lag factor" isn't an issue when the room
stays at a comfortable temperature all the time. It's apparent that you've
never lived in a home with a hot-water heating system using cast iron
radiators.

I missed nothing, though it's apparent that you can't read. ...and you're
wrong.

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:15:29 -0800 (PST), mike
wrote:

On Mar 8, 9:49 am, Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
I've read about the Scandinavian or Finnish style fireplaces that have a
huge mass of masonry which does the same darn thing. I've always thought
that if I were to ever build a home, I would want such a fireplace. Add
a bit of hysteresis to the heating cycle and keep things comfortable.
The only problem is they take a long time before putting out any real
heat. Maybe a fire all day until the mass of masonry gets hot. The
more mass, the longer it will take. Also the more mass, the more even
the heating will be.
Agreed. I don't like heating systems with a large lag factor. I want
instant heat when I want heat, and when things are warm enough, I
don't want the system to keep pumping out heat.

Right. Cast iron isn't worth its hype. Copper/aluminum is the way to go for
homes (cast iron is more rugged for commercial use).

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.

You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.

If your schedule is erratic, yes, stick to light weight copper/aluminum.

When we had a hydronic system (we have heat pumps now), we'd set the
thermostat to 59F at night, 64F during the mornings and late afternoons, and
62F during the day. If we were cold, simply crank the thermostat a few
degrees. The cycle would then restart itself. Eratic, yes. Programmed,
sure. Did I ever want cast iron? Hell no.

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:03:37 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:31:51 -0500, Tony wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
Finally, a correct answer.
I guess majoring in physics wasn't useless after all. *snicker*
Guess not. But, yes, you hit the nail on the head. The principal advantage of
cast iron radiators is that they retain heat very well, which provides a much
more even heat than the aluminum fin-tube radiators do.
The aluminum fin baseboard "radiators" are actually "convectors", not
radiators. Most of the heat from them is cold air going in the bottom
and warm air coming out the top, known as a "convection current". If
you sit in front, 2 feet away, you won't feel the heat on your body like
you do if you sit in front of a radiator. Radiators also have
convection currents but not nearly the same as a convector.

Nope. I this sense they're both "convectors". A "radiator" (without
convection) wouldn't be at all efficient. The source temperature would have
to be much too high.

Yes, heating systems with radiators normally run at higher temps then
convectors. Besides, Google is your friend. Do a search for
"baseboard convectors".

Do you believe every sloppily worded article on the Internet? The fact is
that for a "radiator" to work the temperature difference would have to be
*far* more than 100F. Think of an infrared heater. A boiler isn't going to
do it. Convection is a *large* percentage of the heat transfer. Radiation is
miniscule.

Here is some more for you!

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...ator-heat.aspx

"A: Mark Eatherton, a plumbing and heating contractor in Denver,
Colorado, replies: Radiators and baseboard convectors both depend on hot
water as their heat source. The similarity stops there. As their name
implies, radiators deliver heat in the form of radiant energy. In other
words, the energy from a radiator travels through the air without
heating the air until it strikes a solid object. The object is warmed,
which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator’s primary function
is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.

Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off.

No they *CONVECT* heat long after they're shut off.

In some cases,
they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
minimal compared with their overall output potential."

More sloppy wording to go with the sloppy thought.

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:

willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote the following:

In article , willshak

wrote:


The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them).
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.


They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.

Some do. Many don't.


Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.

I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.


I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.



Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system


Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.

Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems.

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
willshak wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote the following:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another
metal? Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to
deal with.

Thanks in advance,

Sam

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.

TDD
The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them). They have enclosures
especially built for them which also helps with the ugly part.
Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan
of water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.


When I was a kid and an inmate at the Catholic Parochial Gulag back
in the middle of the last century, the building had radiators with
hissing contraptions on the top side that reminded me of the valve
on a pressure cooker. If I remember right, there was steam coming
out of the thing that could very well have contributed to keeping
the humidity up in the building.

TDD

It's called "steam heat".

I think the nuns were trying to cook us.

TDD

That I don't doubt. On second thought, I don't think they would cook
you all the way, because then they couldn't torture you anymore.

Were you a fellow sufferer of the slings and arrows of the crazy women?


Yes, I've been Nunned (crying like a baby). Funny, just the other day
my sister was telling about the time she asked her teacher/nun if she
could be an alter girl. The nun told her that she has way too many sins
to stand up there, that she would desecrate the holiness of the church.
And that's putting it mildly, in her words it sounded a hundred times
worse.

Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
willshak wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote the following:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another
metal? Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to
deal with.

Thanks in advance,

Sam

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.

TDD
The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them). They have enclosures
especially built for them which also helps with the ugly part.
Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan
of water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.


When I was a kid and an inmate at the Catholic Parochial Gulag back
in the middle of the last century, the building had radiators with
hissing contraptions on the top side that reminded me of the valve
on a pressure cooker. If I remember right, there was steam coming
out of the thing that could very well have contributed to keeping
the humidity up in the building.

TDD

It's called "steam heat".

I think the nuns were trying to cook us.

TDD

That I don't doubt. On second thought, I don't think they would cook
you all the way, because then they couldn't torture you anymore.

Were you a fellow sufferer of the slings and arrows of the crazy women?


Yes, I've been Nunned (crying like a baby). Funny, just the other day
my sister was telling about the time she asked her teacher/nun if she
could be an alter girl. The nun told her that she has way too many sins
to stand up there, that she would desecrate the holiness of the church.
And that's putting it mildly, in her words it sounded a hundred times
worse.

My first grade teacher was Sister Godzilla, an American nun. In the
second grade the whole teaching staff was replaced with Irish nuns
who believe in capital punishment for small children for things like
talking in the restroom. There was Sister Torture, Sister Autopsy,
Sister Defenestration, Sister Vivisection, Mother Mothra and Father
Bigfoot. Because I had nuns as teachers when I was a small boy, I
have absolutely no fear of terrorists. I do have an inexplicable
fear of albino Penguins.

TDD

In article , willshak wrote:

In my very first message I said STEAM radiators. I never said HOT WATER
radiators, but somehow you seem to have missed that.

No, I didn't miss that. You apparently missed the fact that the whole thread
was about cast iron radiators, though, not "steam radiators". [Hint: check the
title of the thread.]

"I was brought up in homes with STEAM radiators in NYC".
Then, in my response to you. where you somehow read STEAM as HOT WATER,
I said
"STEAM" was the main heating source for many homes and buildings".
Yet you still contend that I am talking about HOT WATER.

I never contended that you're talking about hot water. Quite the contrary, in
fact, as you appear to have been completely ignorant of the existence of hot
water systems -- you stated that cast iron radiators are dangerously hot.
That's not true. Radiators _in steam systems_ are dangerously hot, regardless
of what they're made of. Cast iron radiators _in hot water systems_ are *not*
dangerously hot.

Do you deny that a STEAM radiator, which you have obviously have never
seen or heard of, can get much hotter than a HOT WATER radiator?

Of course it can. Do you deny that a cast iron radiator in a hot water system
is nowhere nearly as hot as a cast iron radiator in a steam system? And can
you figure out that the dangerous temperatures are the result of the use of
_steam_, not the material that the radiator is made from?

Sheesh.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.

You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.

OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass. Just like there is no
comfort gained with hot water baseboard vs hot air. The copper,
aluminum, and mostly the hot water left inside convectors doesn't have
any more mass then hot air. Yes you are correct, no one likes hot water
baseboard more than hot air. Just because it has more mass than hot air
doesn't make it any better. You are right.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:03:37 -0500, Tony wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:31:51 -0500, Tony wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
Finally, a correct answer.
I guess majoring in physics wasn't useless after all. *snicker*
Guess not. But, yes, you hit the nail on the head. The principal advantage of
cast iron radiators is that they retain heat very well, which provides a much
more even heat than the aluminum fin-tube radiators do.
The aluminum fin baseboard "radiators" are actually "convectors", not
radiators. Most of the heat from them is cold air going in the bottom
and warm air coming out the top, known as a "convection current". If
you sit in front, 2 feet away, you won't feel the heat on your body like
you do if you sit in front of a radiator. Radiators also have
convection currents but not nearly the same as a convector.
Nope. I this sense they're both "convectors". A "radiator" (without
convection) wouldn't be at all efficient. The source temperature would have
to be much too high.
Yes, heating systems with radiators normally run at higher temps then
convectors. Besides, Google is your friend. Do a search for
"baseboard convectors".

Do you believe every sloppily worded article on the Internet? The fact is
that for a "radiator" to work the temperature difference would have to be
*far* more than 100F. Think of an infrared heater. A boiler isn't going to
do it. Convection is a *large* percentage of the heat transfer. Radiation is
miniscule.

Here is some more for you!

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...ator-heat.aspx

"A: Mark Eatherton, a plumbing and heating contractor in Denver,
Colorado, replies: Radiators and baseboard convectors both depend on hot
water as their heat source. The similarity stops there. As their name
implies, radiators deliver heat in the form of radiant energy. In other
words, the energy from a radiator travels through the air without
heating the air until it strikes a solid object. The object is warmed,
which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator’s primary function
is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.

Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off.

No they *CONVECT* heat long after they're shut off.

In some cases,
they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
minimal compared with their overall output potential."

More sloppy wording to go with the sloppy thought.

Yes, you are right and all the internet info is wrong. You are so much
smarter than most of the world. You are incredible. Companies call
their product "convectors" but you are so smart, you know they really
aren't convectors, and all the silly people in the world call, and have
called for 100 years, those heavy cast iron things that radiate heat
"radiators" but you, you are so damn smart that you know more than the
rest of the world. You know the cast iron things are really convectors.
Damn, the whole world had it wrong all this time. Thank Gawd you came
to teach us the truth!

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:

willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote the following:

In article , willshak

wrote:


The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them).
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.


They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.

Some do. Many don't.


Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.

I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.


I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.


Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.

Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems.

Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+. And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F, and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. How do you do it? You are
todays Einstein!

On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:10:40 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.

You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.

OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass.

No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.

Just like there is no
comfort gained with hot water baseboard vs hot air.

There is a difference, though not all will agree on which is better.

The copper,
aluminum, and mostly the hot water left inside convectors doesn't have
any more mass then hot air.

Water doesn't have more thermal mass than air? Ok, if you say so...

Yes you are correct, no one likes hot water
baseboard more than hot air. Just because it has more mass than hot air
doesn't make it any better. You are right.

Of course..

On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:03:25 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:03:37 -0500, Tony wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:31:51 -0500, Tony wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
Finally, a correct answer.
I guess majoring in physics wasn't useless after all. *snicker*
Guess not. But, yes, you hit the nail on the head. The principal advantage of
cast iron radiators is that they retain heat very well, which provides a much
more even heat than the aluminum fin-tube radiators do.
The aluminum fin baseboard "radiators" are actually "convectors", not
radiators. Most of the heat from them is cold air going in the bottom
and warm air coming out the top, known as a "convection current". If
you sit in front, 2 feet away, you won't feel the heat on your body like
you do if you sit in front of a radiator. Radiators also have
convection currents but not nearly the same as a convector.
Nope. I this sense they're both "convectors". A "radiator" (without
convection) wouldn't be at all efficient. The source temperature would have
to be much too high.
Yes, heating systems with radiators normally run at higher temps then
convectors. Besides, Google is your friend. Do a search for
"baseboard convectors".

Do you believe every sloppily worded article on the Internet? The fact is
that for a "radiator" to work the temperature difference would have to be
*far* more than 100F. Think of an infrared heater. A boiler isn't going to
do it. Convection is a *large* percentage of the heat transfer. Radiation is
miniscule.

Here is some more for you!

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...ator-heat.aspx

"A: Mark Eatherton, a plumbing and heating contractor in Denver,
Colorado, replies: Radiators and baseboard convectors both depend on hot
water as their heat source. The similarity stops there. As their name
implies, radiators deliver heat in the form of radiant energy. In other
words, the energy from a radiator travels through the air without
heating the air until it strikes a solid object. The object is warmed,
which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator’s primary function
is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.

Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off.

No they *CONVECT* heat long after they're shut off.

In some cases,
they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
minimal compared with their overall output potential."

More sloppy wording to go with the sloppy thought.

Yes, you are right and all the internet info is wrong.

The *words* are used improperly, but what's new?

You are so much
smarter than most of the world. You are incredible.

Smarter than you, obviously. The fact that *you* are in awe is
understandable.

Companies call
their product "convectors" but you are so smart, you know they really
aren't convectors, and all the silly people in the world call, and have
called for 100 years, those heavy cast iron things that radiate heat
"radiators" but you, you are so damn smart that you know more than the
rest of the world. You know the cast iron things are really convectors.
Damn, the whole world had it wrong all this time. Thank Gawd you came
to teach us the truth!

Do try to think some time. You might learn something.

On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:13:27 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:

willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote the following:

In article , willshak

wrote:


The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them).
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.


They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.

Some do. Many don't.


Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.

I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.


I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.


Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.

Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems.

Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+.

I see you're illiterate, as well as being stupid as a stump.

And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F

Bull****. Most are set for 180F to 200F. The higher the temperature the
higher the efficiency.

and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+.

Of course you're a liar, too.

How do you do it? You are todays Einstein!

With you as a reference, I can see how you would come to that conclusion.

wrote
And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F

Bull****. Most are set for 180F to 200F. The higher the temperature the
higher the efficiency.

They may be set at 180, but the actual temperature downstream is much less
and declines as it goes.

In article , " wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:10:40 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.

You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still
matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast
iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.

OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass.

No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.

*And* cool off, which means that the temperature changes much more gradually.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:10:40 -0500, Tony wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.
You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.
OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass.

No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.

Just like there is no
comfort gained with hot water baseboard vs hot air.

There is a difference, though not all will agree on which is better.

The copper,
aluminum, and mostly the hot water left inside convectors doesn't have
any more mass then hot air.

Water doesn't have more thermal mass than air? Ok, if you say so...

Yes you are correct, no one likes hot water
baseboard more than hot air. Just because it has more mass than hot air
doesn't make it any better. You are right.

Of course..

This poor boy never heard sarcasm before.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:03:25 -0500, Tony wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:03:37 -0500, Tony wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:31:51 -0500, Tony wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
Finally, a correct answer.
I guess majoring in physics wasn't useless after all. *snicker*
Guess not. But, yes, you hit the nail on the head. The principal advantage of
cast iron radiators is that they retain heat very well, which provides a much
more even heat than the aluminum fin-tube radiators do.
The aluminum fin baseboard "radiators" are actually "convectors", not
radiators. Most of the heat from them is cold air going in the bottom
and warm air coming out the top, known as a "convection current". If
you sit in front, 2 feet away, you won't feel the heat on your body like
you do if you sit in front of a radiator. Radiators also have
convection currents but not nearly the same as a convector.
Nope. I this sense they're both "convectors". A "radiator" (without
convection) wouldn't be at all efficient. The source temperature would have
to be much too high.
Yes, heating systems with radiators normally run at higher temps then
convectors. Besides, Google is your friend. Do a search for
"baseboard convectors".
Do you believe every sloppily worded article on the Internet? The fact is
that for a "radiator" to work the temperature difference would have to be
*far* more than 100F. Think of an infrared heater. A boiler isn't going to
do it. Convection is a *large* percentage of the heat transfer. Radiation is
miniscule.

Here is some more for you!

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...ator-heat.aspx

"A: Mark Eatherton, a plumbing and heating contractor in Denver,
Colorado, replies: Radiators and baseboard convectors both depend on hot
water as their heat source. The similarity stops there. As their name
implies, radiators deliver heat in the form of radiant energy. In other
words, the energy from a radiator travels through the air without
heating the air until it strikes a solid object. The object is warmed,
which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator’s primary function
is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.

Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off.
No they *CONVECT* heat long after they're shut off.

In some cases,
they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
minimal compared with their overall output potential."
More sloppy wording to go with the sloppy thought.
Yes, you are right and all the internet info is wrong.

The *words* are used improperly, but what's new?

You are so much
smarter than most of the world. You are incredible.

Smarter than you, obviously. The fact that *you* are in awe is
understandable.

Nope, no idea what sarcasm is, he really thinks I think He's smart.
LOL!



Companies call
their product "convectors" but you are so smart, you know they really
aren't convectors, and all the silly people in the world call, and have
called for 100 years, those heavy cast iron things that radiate heat
"radiators" but you, you are so damn smart that you know more than the
rest of the world. You know the cast iron things are really convectors.
Damn, the whole world had it wrong all this time. Thank Gawd you came
to teach us the truth!

Do try to think some time. You might learn something.

He does! He really thinks I think He's smart.
LOL!

Plonk! Not worth my time.

On Mar 8, 4:30*am, Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.

Thanks in advance,

Sam

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much. There are lots
of disadvantages. As they are made in sections they often leak if
taken out and the joints are stressed. They are very expensive and
labour intensive to make. They heat up and cool slowly due to their
mass.

On Mar 8, 2:51*pm, "EXT" wrote:
"Sam Takoy" wrote in message

...

Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.

Thanks in advance,

Sam

I don't know that ALL radiators are made of cast iron, mostly old radiators
made around the time of WWII and earlier were cast iron. These days many are
fined tubes, or other materials. The ones used in Europe seem to be made
from pressed sheet steel.

Radiators made in Europe are indeed made of pressed steel. Cast iron
radiators went out in the 1950's. They rely on the water inside being
chemically treated to prevent corrosion. (The pipes are often copper).
Hower we are moving away from this technology towards plastic pipes
buried in the floor (usually though not always concrete). Water
temperatures are then much lower so increasing boiler efficiency.
Boiler efficiencies of over 100% are possible.

On Mar 8, 4:11*pm, willshak wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote the following:



Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another
metal? Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal
with.

Thanks in advance,

Sam

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.

TDD

The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot (don't
allow toddlers around them). They have enclosures especially built for
them which also helps with the ugly part.
Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Steam radiators don't have to be very hot.

On Mar 9, 9:13*pm, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:

willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote the following:

In article , willshak

wrote:

The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them). * * * * * *
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.

They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.

Some do. Many don't.

Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.

I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. *Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.

I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.

Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems. *

Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! *I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+. *And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F, and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. *How do you do it? *You are
todays Einstein!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are showing your ignorance here. The temperature of steam depends
on it's pressure. That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
pressure. If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
The upper limit can be as high as you like.

On Mar 11, 4:16*am, "
wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:13:27 -0500, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:

willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote the following:

In article , willshak

wrote:

The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them). * * * * * *
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.

They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.

Some do. Many don't.

Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.

I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. *Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.

I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.

Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems. *

Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! *I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+.

I see you're illiterate, as well as being stupid as a stump.

And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F

Bull****. *Most are set for 180F to 200F. *The higher the temperature the
higher the efficiency.

and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. *

Of course you're a liar, too.

How do you do it? *You are todays Einstein!

With you as a reference, I can see how you would come to that conclusion.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Afraid not. Lower temperature systems have a higher efficiency.
BTW, there are no efficient heating systems in America.

In article , harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all, actually.

There are lots
of disadvantages. As they are made in sections they often leak if
taken out and the joints are stressed.

Yeah, that's a pretty frequent occurrence, too, taking them out and stressing
the joints.

They are very expensive and
labour intensive to make.

What planet did you grow up on?

They heat up and cool slowly due to their
mass.

That is one of the biggest advantages.

In article , harry wrote:


Radiators made in Europe are indeed made of pressed steel. Cast iron
radiators went out in the 1950's. They rely on the water inside being
chemically treated to prevent corrosion.

Untrue. In a closed system, once all of the dissolved oxygen reacts with the
iron, no further oxidation will take place (unless additional oxygen is
introduced later).

Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

In article , harry wrote:

You are showing your ignorance here. The temperature of steam depends
on it's pressure. That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
pressure. If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
The upper limit can be as high as you like.

How many steam heating systems are you aware of that operate at, or below,
atmospheric pressure? Please cite specific examples.

harry wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:13 pm, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:
willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:
The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them).
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.
They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.
Some do. Many don't.
Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.
I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.
I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system
Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.
Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems.
Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+. And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F, and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. How do you do it? You are
todays Einstein!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are showing your ignorance here. The temperature of steam depends
on it's pressure. That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
pressure. If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
The upper limit can be as high as you like.

I thought we were talking about a one pipe system? Maybe that was
another thread, maybe not??

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:23:18 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:10:40 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.

You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still
matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast
iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.

OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass.

No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.

*And* cool off, which means that the temperature changes much more gradually.

Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the ramp
up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
nothing.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:46:09 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:10:40 -0500, Tony wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.
You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.
OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass.

No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.

Just like there is no
comfort gained with hot water baseboard vs hot air.

There is a difference, though not all will agree on which is better.

The copper,
aluminum, and mostly the hot water left inside convectors doesn't have
any more mass then hot air.

Water doesn't have more thermal mass than air? Ok, if you say so...

Yes you are correct, no one likes hot water
baseboard more than hot air. Just because it has more mass than hot air
doesn't make it any better. You are right.

Of course..

This poor boy never heard sarcasm before.

Poor dork can't read.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:46:13 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:03:25 -0500, Tony wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:03:37 -0500, Tony wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:31:51 -0500, Tony wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.

I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
Finally, a correct answer.
I guess majoring in physics wasn't useless after all. *snicker*
Guess not. But, yes, you hit the nail on the head. The principal advantage of
cast iron radiators is that they retain heat very well, which provides a much
more even heat than the aluminum fin-tube radiators do.
The aluminum fin baseboard "radiators" are actually "convectors", not
radiators. Most of the heat from them is cold air going in the bottom
and warm air coming out the top, known as a "convection current". If
you sit in front, 2 feet away, you won't feel the heat on your body like
you do if you sit in front of a radiator. Radiators also have
convection currents but not nearly the same as a convector.
Nope. I this sense they're both "convectors". A "radiator" (without
convection) wouldn't be at all efficient. The source temperature would have
to be much too high.
Yes, heating systems with radiators normally run at higher temps then
convectors. Besides, Google is your friend. Do a search for
"baseboard convectors".
Do you believe every sloppily worded article on the Internet? The fact is
that for a "radiator" to work the temperature difference would have to be
*far* more than 100F. Think of an infrared heater. A boiler isn't going to
do it. Convection is a *large* percentage of the heat transfer. Radiation is
miniscule.

Here is some more for you!

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...ator-heat.aspx

"A: Mark Eatherton, a plumbing and heating contractor in Denver,
Colorado, replies: Radiators and baseboard convectors both depend on hot
water as their heat source. The similarity stops there. As their name
implies, radiators deliver heat in the form of radiant energy. In other
words, the energy from a radiator travels through the air without
heating the air until it strikes a solid object. The object is warmed,
which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator’s primary function
is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.

Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off.
No they *CONVECT* heat long after they're shut off.

In some cases,
they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
minimal compared with their overall output potential."
More sloppy wording to go with the sloppy thought.
Yes, you are right and all the internet info is wrong.

The *words* are used improperly, but what's new?

You are so much
smarter than most of the world. You are incredible.

Smarter than you, obviously. The fact that *you* are in awe is
understandable.

Nope, no idea what sarcasm is, he really thinks I think He's smart.
LOL!

I think you're illiterate. In fact I *know* it.


Companies call
their product "convectors" but you are so smart, you know they really
aren't convectors, and all the silly people in the world call, and have
called for 100 years, those heavy cast iron things that radiate heat
"radiators" but you, you are so damn smart that you know more than the
rest of the world. You know the cast iron things are really convectors.
Damn, the whole world had it wrong all this time. Thank Gawd you came
to teach us the truth!

Do try to think some time. You might learn something.

He does! He really thinks I think He's smart.
LOL!

Plonk! Not worth my time.

Facts, apparently, never are.

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:20:12 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



wrote
And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F

Bull****. Most are set for 180F to 200F. The higher the temperature the
higher the efficiency.

They may be set at 180, but the actual temperature downstream is much less
and declines as it goes.

Not much less at the first radiator - certainly not 20F lower. Ideally there
is no loss inbetween the furnace and the first radiator (wasted heat).
Obviously the water is going to cool as it winds through the loop.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:45:48 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Mar 11, 4:16*am, "
wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:13:27 -0500, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:18:36 -0500, Tony wrote:

willshak wrote:
Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , willshak
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote the following:

In article , willshak

wrote:

The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
(don't allow toddlers around them). * * * * * *
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.

They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps
with the ugly part.

Some do. Many don't.

Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.

Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware
that many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.

I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. *Steam was the main heating source
for many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.

I didn't say you remembered incorrectly -- I said you have
misconceptions about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than
the water that's circulated through them.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.

Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems. *

Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! *I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+.

I see you're illiterate, as well as being stupid as a stump.

And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F

Bull****. *Most are set for 180F to 200F. *The higher the temperature the
higher the efficiency.

and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. *

Of course you're a liar, too.

How do you do it? *You are todays Einstein!

With you as a reference, I can see how you would come to that conclusion.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Afraid not. Lower temperature systems have a higher efficiency.

Wrong. In this case, the gas fire is hotter than the loop. You want the loop
to be as hot as possible to minimize the heat lost in the heat exchanger. Heat
pumps operate at a lower temperature for similar reasons (lower delta-T).

BTW, there are no efficient heating systems in America.

Now you're just being stupid.

In article , "chaniarts" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.

As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
actually.

huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.

Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.

In article , " wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:23:18 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:10:40 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.

You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still
matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast
iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is
more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.

OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass.

No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.

*And* cool off, which means that the temperature changes much more gradually.

Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the ramp
up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
nothing.

Perhaps you live someplace where you turn your heat on and off every day.
Where I live, it's cold enough in the winter that we leave the heating system
on all the time. We *want* those radiators to stay warm.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:29:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:23:18 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:10:40 -0500, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.

You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still
matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast
iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is
more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.

OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass.

No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.

*And* cool off, which means that the temperature changes much more gradually.

Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the ramp
up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
nothing.

Perhaps you live someplace where you turn your heat on and off every day.

When we lived in VT we changed it several times a day, four times
automatically and another one or two manually. Here we have heat pumps, so no
fiddling with the thermostat.

Where I live, it's cold enough in the winter that we leave the heating system
on all the time. We *want* those radiators to stay warm.

I like sleeping in a cold house and reasonable during the day (VT house
59night/64day with a boost to 68F in the evening) .