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#1
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90 amps for electric car charge!
Is your garage electric car ready?
Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection... http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html |
#2
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On Feb 15, 9:01*am, "Bill" wrote:
Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html Yeah, what you have to plug it into is one of the key facts the green folks promoting electric cars as a big solution fail to mention. Aside from the installation cost of an appropriate circuit, it's not exactly that awful either. True, it takes a 90A circuit to fully charge the car in 4 hours. But if you look at the table there are other very viable options: 90A 4 hours 60A 5 hours 40A 7.5 30A 10 That gets you to fully charged with a range I guess of about 225 miles. If you use the car mainly as a second car for short drives around town, driving to a commuter lot, etc., it sounds viable. The second big omission is that you always hear the media gushing over this cars as "zero emissions". Which is true only if you conveniently ignore that all this power still has to be generated someplace. In some small amount of cases today, it could be green, eg where the car is charged at night using excess hydroelectric. But for most of the country, the power today still has to come from conventional fuels and all you're doing is moving the pollution from one place to another. And possible introducing more, as I'm not sure what the total energy/emissions balance looks like, ie burning a gallon of gasoline in a car vs burning say coal to generate the electricity, then sending it over a transmission system with losses, etc. |
#3
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90 amps for electric car charge!
? ?????? ??? ?????? ... On Feb 15, 9:01 am, "Bill" wrote: Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html snip Yeah, I've read in a german magazine (www.spiegel.de) that even the best car battery has no more energy than 2 pints of gas. To become viable, they have to be 3 times as good and 3 times as cheap. Not to mention, that if you put the pedal to the metal, the bat will drain in very little time. And of course, it's worse efficiency to burn coal, generate electricity and transmit, distribute it etc. over 5-6 transformation stages than using an ICE with gasoline... -- Tzortzakakis Dimitrios major in electrical engineering mechanized infantry reservist hordad AT otenet DOT gr |
#4
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On Feb 15, 7:43*am, "Tzortzakakis Dimitrios" wrote:
? ?????? ??? ... On Feb 15, 9:01 am, "Bill" wrote: Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html snip Yeah, I've read in a german magazine (www.spiegel.de) that even the best car battery has no more energy than 2 pints of gas. To become viable, they have to be 3 times as good and 3 times as cheap. Not to mention, that if you put the pedal to the metal, the bat will drain in very little time. And of course, it's worse efficiency to burn coal, generate electricity and transmit, distribute it etc. over 5-6 transformation stages than using an ICE with gasoline... -- Tzortzakakis Dimitrios major in electrical engineering mechanized infantry reservist hordad AT otenet DOT gr Important piece of advice from an experienced engineer.....don't believe everything you read without verifying with other reliable sources. cheers Bob |
#5
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.engineering.electrical,alt.home.repair
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90 amps for electric car charge!
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
? ?????? ??? ?????? ... On Feb 15, 9:01 am, "Bill" wrote: Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html snip Yeah, I've read in a german magazine (www.spiegel.de) that even the best car battery has no more energy than 2 pints of gas. To become viable, they have to be 3 times as good and 3 times as cheap. Not to mention, that if you put the pedal to the metal, the bat will drain in very little time. And of course, it's worse efficiency to burn coal, generate electricity and transmit, distribute it etc. over 5-6 transformation stages than using an ICE with gasoline... 'Worse efficiency' but it could still cost less to the consumer. And not all electricity comes from coal. daestrom |
#6
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.engineering.electrical,alt.home.repair
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90 amps for electric car charge!
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#7
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On Feb 15, 11:15*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote: [...] The second big omission is that you always hear the media gushing over this cars as "zero emissions". * *Which is true only if you conveniently ignore that all this power still has to be generated someplace. *In some small amount of cases today, it could be green, eg where the car is charged at night using excess hydroelectric. * But for most of the country, the power today still has to come from conventional fuels and all you're doing is moving the pollution from one place to another. * Moving the pollution from one place to another is, in itself, a laudable goal; seen what the air looks like in LA or Chicago recently? And how politically feasible do you think it's going to be to do that? What area wants to receive the pollution to help clean the air for someplace else? Especially in todays political climate, that is a non-starter. And possible introducing more, as I'm not sure what the total energy/emissions balance looks like, ie burning a gallon of gasoline in a car vs burning say coal to generate the electricity, then sending it over a transmission system with losses, etc. You're overlooking a few points in favor of the electric cars. First off, by concentrating the emissions at the power plant, the air quality in most major cities will be tremendously improved. Second, again by concentrating the emissions in one place, it's easier to scrub them; one power plant producing the electricity to power a million electric cars will likely produce much less pollution than a million cars with internal combustion engines. Third, one large power plant has the potential for economies of scale that a million point sources lack. Fourth, and perhaps most important, the internal combustion engine is terribly inefficient, since it derives all its power from the mechanical energy of the expanding exhaust gases and wastes all of the heat; coal-fired power plants are *far* more efficient. I never overlooked ANY of that. All I said was that I have yet to see an unbiased analysis of the TOTAL cost of driving electric cars. What the future energy sources to make the electric are going to be, the cost of the fuels, new clean plants, where you can build them, distribution system upgrades, etc. If you have an objective study, I'd be happy to look at it. As a small example of what you are dealing with, it's already clear that with the NIMBY mentality, it's unlikely you're going to find areas that are willing to be the recepients of pollution to lessen the pollution for people in nyc, la, etc. And it's even a regional issue. Much of the pollution here in NJ is due to coal fired plants in Ohio and the prevailing winds. Above you mention that coal- fired plants are far more efficient. If you believe we are going to have to reduce CO2 emissions going forward, which clearly is the intent right now, then any new coal plants are going to be extremely expensive compared to what we have today. Think carbon sequestration. |
#8
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On Feb 15, 9:16*am, wrote:
On Feb 15, 9:01*am, "Bill" wrote: Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html Yeah, what you have to plug it into is one of the key facts the green folks promoting electric cars as a big solution fail to mention. Aside from the installation cost of an appropriate circuit, it's not exactly that awful either. * True, it takes a 90A circuit to fully charge the car in 4 hours. * But if you look at the table there are other very viable options: 90A * *4 hours 60A * *5 hours 40A * *7.5 30A * *10 That gets you to fully charged with a range I guess of about 225 miles. *If you use the car mainly as a second car for short drives around town, driving to a commuter lot, etc., it sounds viable. The second big omission is that you always hear the media gushing over this cars as "zero emissions". * *Which is true only if you conveniently ignore that all this power still has to be generated someplace. *In some small amount of cases today, it could be green, eg where the car is charged at night using excess hydroelectric. * But for most of the country, the power today still has to come from conventional fuels and all you're doing is moving the pollution from one place to another. * And possible introducing more, as I'm not sure what the total energy/emissions balance looks like, ie burning a gallon of gasoline in a car vs burning say coal to generate the electricity, then sending it over a transmission system with losses, etc. Power plants convert a much higher percentage of fuel into energy than any car that runs on gas can, a gas car actualy uses about 1/3rd of the energy from gas to move it, It would be cleaner, and cleaner where you need it in cities and roads. But batteries cost to much and dont last. |
#9
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.engineering.electrical,alt.home.repair
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90 amps for electric car charge!
When I go camping, I bring my zero emissions
electric heater for my tent. I plug it into the generator that burns oil, and pumps out carbon monoxide. But, the heater is zero emissions. Same deal with the car. Except that manufacturing of the car pollutes, and that the batteries eventually have to be thrown out, and, and, and. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message ... The second big omission is that you always hear the media gushing over this cars as "zero emissions". Which is true only if you conveniently ignore that all this power still has to be generated someplace. |
#10
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90 amps for electric car charge!
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#11
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.engineering.electrical,alt.home.repair
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90 amps for electric car charge!
David Nebenzahl wrote:
Just last night I heard a local news report about recovering methane from landfills for use as fuel. While this is a good thing overall, the stupid reporter (or editor) got away with saying that this would reduce carbon dioxide emissions! Of course this is totally untrue: while the methane would be captured instead of simply venting to the atmosphere, the carbon dioxide would be released later when it was burned. All that's being done is delaying the release of the CO2. Sheesh; are we *really* that much a nation of idiots? Nope. Just you. Methane produces less CO2 per unit of energy produced than coal or gasoline. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/co...ls-d_1085.html Plus, recovering methane and using it to create energy prevents the methane from escaping to become a greenhouse gas. The energy produced is a bonus. |
#12
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On 2/16/2010 4:23 PM Bob F spake thus:
David Nebenzahl wrote: Just last night I heard a local news report about recovering methane from landfills for use as fuel. While this is a good thing overall, the stupid reporter (or editor) got away with saying that this would reduce carbon dioxide emissions! Of course this is totally untrue: while the methane would be captured instead of simply venting to the atmosphere, the carbon dioxide would be released later when it was burned. All that's being done is delaying the release of the CO2. Sheesh; are we *really* that much a nation of idiots? Nope. Just you. Methane produces less CO2 per unit of energy produced than coal or gasoline. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/co...ls-d_1085.html Plus, recovering methane and using it to create energy prevents the methane from escaping to become a greenhouse gas. The energy produced is a bonus. Totally beside the point; the news report said specifically that capturing the methane and burning it would mean that the carbon in the methane wouldn't be released into the atmosphere. The CO2 released when the methane is burned is most definitely a greenhouse gas. (Remember the formula from high school chemistry? CH4 + 02 -- CO2 + H20) Try to read more carefully. -- You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it. - a Usenet "apology" |
#13
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On Feb 15, 8:01*am, "Bill" wrote:
Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html What concerns me most is maintainability. The NYT article states that the battery costs $12000. That is a big chunk of change down the road a few miles. I've never owned anything with a rechargeable battery, where the first few months weren't the best of the experience, with a death spiral from there. So what becomes of the electric car with a dead battery? What is your trade in or resale value of a car with the electric equivalent of a blown engine. |
#14
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XPOST 90 amps for electric car charge!
On 2/15/2010 8:01 AM, Bill wrote:
Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection... http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html Supply and demand. As more electricity is needed to power cars the cost per KW hour will increase proportionately. If you don't own an electric car you'll be paying for your neighbors every time you turn on a switch. If they can't get it out of one pocket they'll get it out of another. LdB |
#15
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90 amps for electric car charge!
"Bill" wrote in message ... Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection... http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php It's a 90A Circuit Breaker. However, the maximum current for the vehicle is 70A, as set by the duty cycle of the Pilot waveform. At 240v that is 16.8 kw*4 to do a full charge, or 67.2 kw total. At the national average of $.12 per kw that is about $8 ($.04/mile) for a full charge to drive those 200 or so miles. This is about 1/3 the cost to drive an average gas vehicle at 20 MPG and $2.60 per gallon. |
#16
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On Feb 15, 1:50*pm, "Rich." wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message ... Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection... http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php It's a 90A Circuit Breaker. However, the maximum current for the vehicle is 70A, as set by the duty cycle of the Pilot waveform. At 240v that is 16.8 kw*4 to do a full charge, or 67.2 kw total. At the national average of $.12 per kw that is about $8 ($.04/mile) for a full charge to drive those 200 or so miles. This is about 1/3 the cost to drive an average gas vehicle at 20 MPG and $2.60 per gallon. And again, this is an example of comparing apples to oranges. These electric vehicles are relatively small cars. And they should be compared to similar size fuel efficient cars, not the average gas vehicle. There are lots of car choices getting 30 city, 45 highway or better. The Toyota Prius gets 51 city 48 highway giving a fuel cost of about $12. Here in the northeast with electric at 17c kwh, and using your above math, the fuel cost on the Prius vs the electric is a wash here. But I bet the Prius is a far more drivable vehicle, capable of higher sustained highway speeds, etc. and doesn't have the obvious drawbacks for the user that the electric car has. |
#17
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90 amps for electric car charge!
Well I'm getting out my popcorn to sit back and watch the show in California
with this. They [California] had a fit with everyone buying those new TV's which use a bit more energy. (Overloading the electric grid.) In California no one wants any new major electric transmission lines built in their backyard. If quite a few people buy these cars in California, it will be interesting to see what they do when it places a strain on their electric grid. Neighborhood nukes? Or for that matter if there was a concentration of these new cars in one neighborhood anywhere. Say 3 homes all on the same electric company transformer. Then all 3 homes get electric vehicles, and they all recharge them at 6:00 pm when they get home on a hot summer day, and also have their AC and everything else going full blast??? Neighborhood Nuclear Power... http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/about.html |
#18
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On 2/15/2010 4:08 PM, Bill wrote:
Well I'm getting out my popcorn to sit back and watch the show in California with this. They [California] had a fit with everyone buying those new TV's which use a bit more energy. (Overloading the electric grid.) In California no one wants any new major electric transmission lines built in their backyard. If quite a few people buy these cars in California, it will be interesting to see what they do when it places a strain on their electric grid. Neighborhood nukes? Or for that matter if there was a concentration of these new cars in one neighborhood anywhere. Say 3 homes all on the same electric company transformer. Then all 3 homes get electric vehicles, and they all recharge them at 6:00 pm when they get home on a hot summer day, and also have their AC and everything else going full blast??? Neighborhood Nuclear Power... http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/about.html Aren't you assuming worst case? I think a lot of diversity will be involved. Many would likely just use a longer term lower current draw charge. |
#19
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.engineering.electrical,alt.home.repair
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90 amps for electric car charge!
George wrote:
On 2/15/2010 4:08 PM, Bill wrote: Well I'm getting out my popcorn to sit back and watch the show in California with this. They [California] had a fit with everyone buying those new TV's which use a bit more energy. (Overloading the electric grid.) In California no one wants any new major electric transmission lines built in their backyard. If quite a few people buy these cars in California, it will be interesting to see what they do when it places a strain on their electric grid. Neighborhood nukes? Or for that matter if there was a concentration of these new cars in one neighborhood anywhere. Say 3 homes all on the same electric company transformer. Then all 3 homes get electric vehicles, and they all recharge them at 6:00 pm when they get home on a hot summer day, and also have their AC and everything else going full blast??? Neighborhood Nuclear Power... http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/about.html Aren't you assuming worst case? I think a lot of diversity will be involved. Many would likely just use a longer term lower current draw charge. And a lot more people would be going to off peak rates so they don't start to recharge until people are going to bed. |
#20
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90 amps for electric car charge!
Bill wrote:
Well I'm getting out my popcorn to sit back and watch the show in California with this. They [California] had a fit with everyone buying those new TV's which use a bit more energy. (Overloading the electric grid.) In California no one wants any new major electric transmission lines built in their backyard. If quite a few people buy these cars in California, it will be interesting to see what they do when it places a strain on their electric grid. Neighborhood nukes? Or for that matter if there was a concentration of these new cars in one neighborhood anywhere. Say 3 homes all on the same electric company transformer. Then all 3 homes get electric vehicles, and they all recharge them at 6:00 pm when they get home on a hot summer day, and also have their AC and everything else going full blast??? Neighborhood Nuclear Power... http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/about.html I remember the Toshiba Corporation small reactor project for Alaska. I wonder how it's going? http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/advanced/4s.html TDD |
#22
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90 amps for electric car charge!
On Feb 15, 1:15*pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote: On Feb 15, 1:50 pm, "Rich." wrote: "Bill" wrote in message ... Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection... http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php It's a 90A Circuit Breaker. However, the maximum current for the vehicle is 70A, as set by the duty cycle of the Pilot waveform. At 240v that is 16.8 kw*4 to do a full charge, or 67.2 kw total. At the national average of $.12 per kw that is about $8 ($.04/mile) for a full charge to drive those 200 or so miles. This is about 1/3 the cost to drive an average gas vehicle at 20 MPG and $2.60 per gallon. And again, this is an example of comparing apples to oranges. * These electric vehicles are relatively small cars. *And they should be compared to similar size fuel efficient cars, not the average gas vehicle. * There are lots of car choices getting 30 city, 45 highway or better. * *The Toyota Prius gets 51 city 48 highway giving a fuel cost of about $12. *Here in the northeast with electric at 17c kwh, and using your above math, the fuel cost on the Prius vs the electric is a wash here. But I bet the Prius is a far more drivable vehicle, capable of higher sustained highway speeds, etc. and doesn't have the obvious drawbacks for the user that the electric car has. Interesting choice for comparison since the Prius is a hybrid (partly electric) car. It is likely to include an option to charge the (relatively small) battery off the grid in the not-too-distant future. *From what little I have seen, the Tesla is a sports car - high acceleration, probably better high speed behavior. -- bud--- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This talk about loads gets one thinking. Since 99% of homes and 100% of new ones here are electrically heated. And as it happens our island wide electrical sytem for a population of some half million persons is not connected to the North American grid. Any new domestic installations for last 30/40 years or more have required 200 amp services. Distribution transformer loadings (with anywhere from 3 to say 8 homes per transformer in suburban areas) must be installed on some sort of diversity. My heating won't be on simultaneously with all my neighbours, eh? I won't be cooking dinner, or taking a shower at exactly the same time etc. And in fact I will never be using all that 200 amps anyway? But if I were to plug in my 90 amp car recharger ...................... ! Hmmm! |
#23
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90 amps for electric car charge!
Bill wrote:
Is your garage electric car ready? Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection... http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/bu...5electric.html The last one is a good example of the law of unintended results. TDD |
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