I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

you don't need to staple if you are pulling through an existing wall.

have you thought about roughing in for hardwired smoke detectors while
you are at it?

my local inspector says if I rewire a circuit that requires an AFCI by
current code, I need to add the AFCI. Your inspector may have a
different opinion.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

Just my 2 cents worth. I expect that you have the minimum figured out
right, but I would consider adding quite a few more outlets. If you
are like me you will probably find that putting in the number of
outlets required by the NEC will leave you searching for outlets
to plug 'just one more thing' into. I would seriously consider if you
are completely rewiring that you put in twice as many outlets as the
requirement.

Bill

Just my 2 cents worth. �I expect that you have the minimum figured out
right, but I would consider adding quite a few more outlets. �If you
are like me you will probably find that putting in the number of
outlets required by the NEC will leave you searching for outlets
to plug 'just one more thing' into. �I would seriously consider if you
are completely rewiring that you put in twice as many outlets as the
requirement.

Bill-

yes and upgrade main service to at least 200 amps.

besides a general lighting circuit, with NO receptables on it, its
best to put each bedroom individual room on its own circuit.

makes troubleshooting later much easier

On Jan 10, 9:31*am, BillGill wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. *From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
* *(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. *Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. *I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. *Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

Just my 2 cents worth. *I expect that you have the minimum figured out
right, but I would consider adding quite a few more outlets. *If you
are like me you will probably find that putting in the number of
outlets required by the NEC will leave you searching for outlets
to plug 'just one more thing' into. *I would seriously consider if you
are completely rewiring that you put in twice as many outlets as the
requirement.

Bill

If the OP is married I strongly urge him to get his wife in on the
placement and number of the outlets.

Jimmie

On Jan 10, 9:47*am, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 10, 9:31*am, BillGill wrote:





Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. *From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
* *(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. *Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. *I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. *Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

Just my 2 cents worth. *I expect that you have the minimum figured out
right, but I would consider adding quite a few more outlets. *If you
are like me you will probably find that putting in the number of
outlets required by the NEC will leave you searching for outlets
to plug 'just one more thing' into. *I would seriously consider if you
are completely rewiring that you put in twice as many outlets as the
requirement.

Bill

If the OP is married I strongly urge him to get his wife in on the
placement and number of the outlets.

Jimmie



SWMBO has already informed me that I will be putting ceiling lights in
every room. Currently they are only in the kitchen, dining room and
bathrooms. The hardest one will be the living room since the center
of the room has a window on one side and a doorway on the other. I'll
probably use one of these so when two months later she tells me it
should be a fan I can just replace the light.
http://www.amazon.com/Pass-Seymour-3.../dp/B0000DG9BH

For the bedrooms I'll put a 2x4 between the joists to support those
light/fan boxes.

In article , Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit
1 microwave/hood
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
GFCI required in unfinished areas of basement; not smart to plug refrigerator
into a GFCI
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
Not required by Code to be limited to 2 outlets per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit
1 radon fan
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit
1 dining room
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jan 10, 9:47 am, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 10, 9:31 am, BillGill wrote:





Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft
Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?
Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?
Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?
Just my 2 cents worth. I expect that you have the minimum figured out
right, but I would consider adding quite a few more outlets. If you
are like me you will probably find that putting in the number of
outlets required by the NEC will leave you searching for outlets
to plug 'just one more thing' into. I would seriously consider if you
are completely rewiring that you put in twice as many outlets as the
requirement.
Bill
If the OP is married I strongly urge him to get his wife in on the
placement and number of the outlets.

Jimmie



SWMBO has already informed me that I will be putting ceiling lights in
every room. Currently they are only in the kitchen, dining room and
bathrooms. The hardest one will be the living room since the center
of the room has a window on one side and a doorway on the other. I'll
probably use one of these so when two months later she tells me it
should be a fan I can just replace the light.
http://www.amazon.com/Pass-Seymour-3.../dp/B0000DG9BH

For the bedrooms I'll put a 2x4 between the joists to support those
light/fan boxes.



if you do that pull 14/3 to the ceiling boxes instead of 14/2 so you
don't have to repull when you install fans

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jan 10, 12:40*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jan 10, 9:47 am, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 10, 9:31 am, BillGill wrote:

Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. *From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
* *(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft
Doesn't seem like overkill to me. *Am I missing anything?
Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. *I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. *Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?
Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?
Just my 2 cents worth. *I expect that you have the minimum figured out
right, but I would consider adding quite a few more outlets. *If you
are like me you will probably find that putting in the number of
outlets required by the NEC will leave you searching for outlets
to plug 'just one more thing' into. *I would seriously consider if you
are completely rewiring that you put in twice as many outlets as the
requirement.
Bill
If the OP is married I strongly urge him to get his wife in on the
placement and number of the outlets.

Jimmie

SWMBO has already informed me that I will be putting ceiling lights in
every room. *Currently they are only in the kitchen, dining room and
bathrooms. *The hardest one will be the living room since the center
of the room has a window on one side and a doorway on the other. *I'll
probably use one of these so when two months later she tells me it
should be a fan I can just replace the light.
http://www.amazon.com/Pass-Seymour-3.../dp/B0000DG9BH

For the bedrooms I'll put a 2x4 between the joists to support those
light/fan boxes.

if you do that pull 14/3 to the ceiling boxes instead of 14/2 so you
don't have to repull when you install fans

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Also suggest use 14/3 for the last run-in to any outside motion
lights. Can explain that suggestion if you wish.
Also; haven't done this but sometimes wish I had. There are certain
places where we wish we would have put in double duplex outlets. It's
incredible how 'things to plug in' can multiply; for example behind an
'Entertainment Centre'. TV, DVD player, stereo amp. Game-boy or
equiv.? etc. etc.

Also there's a spot on one of our counters where we plug and keep an
eye on rechargeable AA cells etc. With different chargers constantly
unplugging and plugging in another! And then a relative arrives with a
coffee pot; could use double the number of outlets, easily! And the
food processor is not plugged in at all.

Unlikley will ever build again; but if we did would seriously consider
two duplex per box and possibly more numerous outlets. Some bedroom
ones always seem to end up behind furniture!

Even bedroom outlets get filled up. Side of one relative's bed, for
example, a) Bedside lamp, b) Small radio, c) AC powered phone, d)
Charger for her cell phone. Her husband, other side of bed has one
less item; only three! So there is the inevitable and to me
potentially unsafe adapters/extensions.

One of their two fish tanks in another room needs three plugs, from
one duplex outlet, thereby served by a very unsatisfactory extension
cord!!!! Another fish tank, in the kitchen similarly ties up the
duplex outlet near the kitchen window table. Hmm! Where to plug in the
toaster?

Another place where not enough outlets is work bench; unplug the
grinder to use something else on that end of work bench. And vacuum
cleaners never seem to have long enough cords? Central vacs. seem to
have gone out of style!
Some strategically placed 'outside' outlets for outside lights and/or
an inspection light or charger in case car battery goes flat? Those
may have to be GFCI or other wise protected.

When possible use red/black 14/2 for switch to ceiling (15 amp
circuits).

And 'Two way' lighting for stairs (basement and main staircase?).

terry wrote:

Also suggest use 14/3 for the last run-in to any outside motion
lights. Can explain that suggestion if you wish.

If you don't mind, could you explain that one? I have places where I want
outside motion lights and I have a hunch that the reason behind your 14/3
suggestion may resolve a question or two I have about how to get them to do
what I want them to do. Thanks.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

you don't need to staple if you are pulling through an existing wall.

have you thought about roughing in for hardwired smoke detectors while you
are at it?

my local inspector says if I rewire a circuit that requires an AFCI by
current code, I need to add the AFCI. Your inspector may have a different
opinion.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

You're gonna re-wire your whole house as a DIYer??? Very ambitious...Is the
house gonna be gutted and re-sheetrocked ??? If not I think you MAY be in
way over your head...I know I would be..That's ALOT of wire to pull thru
existing finished walls by yourself in one lifetime....LOL...Good Luck....

I don't see bathroom/dining room (20 amp). And ask your local electrical
inspector what is required for your area. There are local amendments to the
national rules sometimes. Find out where you can get a book or read the
local amendments if any.

Then don't be cheap. Do yourself a favor and install a 40 slot 200 amp
panel.

Best is all 120 volt outlets on 20 amp circuits. There is a thing called a
"vacuum" and this will trip a 15 amp circuit (with other things on it) with
a quickness!

And at a minimum each room should have its own circuit. Makes
troubleshooting much easier.

Separate 20 amp GFCI circuit for outside outlets. An electric lawnmower can
use a LOT of electricity!

And a bathroom needs its own 20 amp circuit and a GFCI outlet. But if you
install a wall heater in the bathroom, might want to place that on its own
circuit. The heater on and a hair dryer on at the same time might trip a 20
amp circuit breaker.

Might want to install several 4-plex outlets on their own 20 amp circuit
where the home entertainment center will go. Then you will not need a power
strip!

Basically I would suggest installing a separate 20 amp circuit to every
possible (and future) power hog.

Where might you install a window air conditioner?

Where might you use a space heater?

Install dedicated 20 amp outlets there.

Electric power is something you use everyday. It is nice to be able to use
the vacuum and not have a breaker trip. Or plug in a lawnmower and not have
a breaker trip. Or have the heater on in the bathroom and use a hair blow
dryer and not have a breaker trip. Etc. Makes life more pleasant!



"Limp Arbor" wrote in message
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

On Jan 10, 12:22*pm, "benick" wrote:


You're gonna re-wire your whole house as a DIYer???

Sure why not? The attic won't be 140deg and it is too cold to do
stuff outside.

Very ambitious...Is the house gonna be gutted and re-sheetrocked ???

Nope. Only holes cut where necessary like for existing ceiling
lights.

If not I think you MAY be in way over your head...I know I would be..That's ALOT of wire to pull thru existing finished walls by yourself in one lifetime....LOL...Good Luck

I'll have helper for some of it to work the 'dumb end' of the fish
tape. The downstairs will be fairly easy since the basement is
unfinished. A few things that will help:
Diversibit
Klein glow in the dark fish sticks
String with a nut on the bottom and a strong magnet
Jack chain

And in case you didn't know those giant outlet covers are made so you
can cut huge holes in the wall and cover them up without looking too
cheesey. :-)
My house actually has these throughout since the builder must have
used HS kids to hang the sheetrock when the house was built. Many
holes are already oversize.

"Limp Arbor" wrote in message
...
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?


The answers depend upon where you live, and if in the US, which code is
currently in effect. Your layout sounds fine, not necessarily required, but
a little overkill never hurt. Cables do have to be stapled unless they are
fished in voids that can't be accessed. If you are using the 2008 NEC,
pretty much all your lighting and outlets will be AFCI protected, except for
the areas that require GFCI protection. I would recommend checking a code
book for specifics

On 2010-01-10, Limp Arbor wrote:

I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need.

The first thing to do is to determine what version of the NEC you are
under (2005 or 2008), and whether there are any local amendments. You
could just wire to the 2008 NEC, but the 2005 NEC provides a bit more
flexibility in certain areas.

From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher

As fixed in place equipment, it is not required to be dedicated, but
it is often a good idea. If the nameplate current draws are low
enough, you could combine it with another piece of equipment, e.g. the
garbage disposal.

1 microwave/hood

Required to be on a dedicated circuit if cord and plug connected.
Otherwise, like the dishwasher.

1 refrigerator

You could put this on the kitchen circuits (the small appliance branch
circuits, SABC); otherwise, like the dishwasher.

1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)

There's nothing wrong with putting a fridge on a gfci. If the fridge
trips the gfci (as an old one may), then it is leaking current to
ground, and should be replaced.

Under the 2005 NEC, you have the option of using a simplex receptacle
and a dedicated circuit to avoid the GFCI requirement. Under the
2008, GFCI is mandatory for an unfinished basement.

1 washing machine

Since you list a laundry room below, this does not require a dedicated
circuit; if it is in the laundry room, plug it into the laundry
circuit.

3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit (two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')

The NEC just requires 2 SABCs, with no limitations on the number of
outlets on each. Is this a local requirement?

1 gas furnace

Likely requires a dedicated circuit, although I'm not sure.

1 radon fan

Like the dishwasher, as far as I know.

1 dining room

The dining room has to be on a SABC. So you could combine it with one
or more of the kitchen circuits. More common is to run a separate
SABC just for the dining room.

1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)

Right.

6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

How you divide up the remainder of the house is up to you, the NEC
does not have a 1 circuit per X square feet requirement. Is there a
local code?

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

Space in the panel for a surge protector?

Lighting circuits and smoke alarms? Whether to wire those separately
to mix them with general use receptacles is a personal preference.

Water heater?

Any other fixed in place equipment?

Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the basement?

Yes.

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

If you modify a circuit, then you have to put in an AFCI breaker if
required. Under the 2005 NEC, it is just circuit with outlets in
bedrooms ("outlet" includes receptacles and any other boxes, like
smoke detectors). Under the 2008 NEC, the requirement is much broader
and you should check the details.

Cheers, Wayne

Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jan 10, 12:22 pm, "benick" wrote:


You're gonna re-wire your whole house as a DIYer???

Sure why not? The attic won't be 140deg and it is too cold to do
stuff outside.

Very ambitious...Is the house gonna be gutted and re-sheetrocked ???

Nope. Only holes cut where necessary like for existing ceiling
lights.

If not I think you MAY be in way over your head...I know I would be..That's ALOT of wire to pull thru existing finished walls by yourself in one lifetime....LOL...Good Luck

I'll have helper for some of it to work the 'dumb end' of the fish
tape. The downstairs will be fairly easy since the basement is
unfinished. A few things that will help:
Diversibit
Klein glow in the dark fish sticks
String with a nut on the bottom and a strong magnet
Jack chain

And in case you didn't know those giant outlet covers are made so you
can cut huge holes in the wall and cover them up without looking too
cheesey. :-)
My house actually has these throughout since the builder must have
used HS kids to hang the sheetrock when the house was built. Many
holes are already oversize.



A skill you may wish to acquire is busting existing boxes out of the
wall without munging up the drywall. I started doing the same thing as
you but only on the second floor of my house. Sometimes you get lucky
and you can pull new Romex behind old because the old is bigger an it'll
slip right through the staples without ripping the outer cover.
Sometimes it'll hang up and you'll lose your nose, and just won't be
able to fish through the little hole in the box, then you have to bust
it out and use an old work box.

In my house most of the recep boxes are 2-3/4" deep. Current code
requires 3-1/2" even for 2x 14/2 and a recep. so even the ones I can
pull without removing, I have to remove anyway.

The "blue boxes" actually work pretty well. Nicer than Madison
hangers. But sometimes you need them (e.g. if you need one BX clamp and
one Romex clamp in the same box.) so it helps to have both metal and
plastic boxes on hand.

plan your wire runs. fan boxes only come in 2-1/8" deep so you can't
cram too many cables into a ceiling box. You can't fit a box much
deeper than 3-1/2" in a 2x4 wall so you're limited to two cables in a
recep box as well.

Your first floor will likely be very challenging because the wire wasn't
originally run in the basement but through the first floor walls and
ceiling. Second floor will be much easier but you'll still likely have
to make a few holes if you are following existing wire routing. (I'm
assuming a 2-story house like mine.)

The MOST challenging part will likely be the homeruns. I haven't done
that yet so no advice there. Am thinking of running a large PVC conduit
up a chase, if it's possible to do so, but may have to just free run the
Romex if I can't.

that's all I can think of off the top of my head but I'm sure I'll come
up with more stuff that I've learned along the way...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jan 10, 9:02*am, Limp Arbor wrote:

snip

*I'll
probably use one of these so when two months later she tells me it
should be a fan I can just replace the light.http://www.amazon.com/Pass-Seymour-3.../dp/B0000DG9BH

For the bedrooms I'll put a 2x4 between the joists to support those
light/fan boxes.

A Fasco 925 box is a whole lot cheaper if you just put a 2x4 in to
support it.

Joe

On Jan 10, 2:08*pm, "Jay-T" wrote:
terry wrote:

Also suggest use 14/3 for the last run-in to any outside motion
lights. Can explain that suggestion if you wish.

If you don't mind, could you explain that one? *I have places where I want
outside motion lights and I have a hunch that the reason behind your 14/3
suggestion may resolve a question or two I have about how to get them to do
what I want them to do. *Thanks.

Our reason is the when the light triggers, according to whatever dusk
and timing settings you have chosen, the third red wire which comes
from the control unit to the actual light bulbs can be wired back and
used to switch on, either another light or two, or operate a lamp
inside house (or a transformer to operate an indicator light or quiet
buzzer) that something has triggered the motion sensor light!
Our typical cheap sensor lights have two 75 watt bulbs, but the sensor/
switch unit is capable of several hundred watts, incandescent. I
believe ours have a small relay inside the sensor unit that switches
on the lights.
Wiring is; white = neutral, black = live in from lighting circuit/
breaker panel, red = switched live whenever the sensor unit operates.
Wire this red wire back out to nearest box and it can be used then, or
later, to switch on other lights.
In our case this may be the lights over our porch which would then
come on same time as the sensor light over the garage door is
triggered!
Just an idea and keeping options open!
Some sensor lights can be caused to stay-on continuously; I believe by
switching off and then on again immediately or after five seconds or
something (read the instructions). That satisfies the need if, for
example, unloading something at night. The light then stays on and is
not triggering on and then off again

On Jan 10, 9:16*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. *From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
* *(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. *Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. *I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. *Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

You may want to add a couple of 20 amp Edison circuits for the
kitchen. I have two double duplex circuits that are above the kitchen
counter for things like toasters, electric skillets, deep fryers.... A
third would sometimes be handy. Bathrooms can need more current than
you think. Two blow dryers going at once will pop a breaker. An outlet
inside a closet can come in handy. I use it to keep things like cell
phones and iPods recharged. My wireless router is there too. Another
closet has a vacuum cleaner plugged in and ready to go. If you
decorate for Xmas having outles handy for plugging in the tree and
such without having to drag out all the extension cords you can find
is really nice. Got a garage? having outlets just inside the doors is
very handy, mine had one in the middle of each wall. That location was
mostly useless. Think about your lifestyle, "where" may be more
important than "how many".

Jimmie

terry wrote:
On Jan 10, 2:08 pm, "Jay-T" wrote:
terry wrote:

Also suggest use 14/3 for the last run-in to any outside motion
lights. Can explain that suggestion if you wish.

If you don't mind, could you explain that one? I have places where I
want outside motion lights and I have a hunch that the reason behind
your 14/3 suggestion may resolve a question or two I have about how
to get them to do what I want them to do. Thanks.

Our reason is the when the light triggers, according to whatever dusk
and timing settings you have chosen, the third red wire which comes
from the control unit to the actual light bulbs can be wired back and
used to switch on, either another light or two, or operate a lamp
inside house (or a transformer to operate an indicator light or quiet
buzzer) that something has triggered the motion sensor light!
Our typical cheap sensor lights have two 75 watt bulbs, but the
sensor/ switch unit is capable of several hundred watts,
incandescent. I believe ours have a small relay inside the sensor
unit that switches on the lights.
Wiring is; white = neutral, black = live in from lighting circuit/
breaker panel, red = switched live whenever the sensor unit operates.
Wire this red wire back out to nearest box and it can be used then, or
later, to switch on other lights.
In our case this may be the lights over our porch which would then
come on same time as the sensor light over the garage door is
triggered!
Just an idea and keeping options open!
Some sensor lights can be caused to stay-on continuously; I believe by
switching off and then on again immediately or after five seconds or
something (read the instructions). That satisfies the need if, for
example, unloading something at night. The light then stays on and is
not triggering on and then off again.

Thanks. Maybe I should start a separate thread on this.

I would like to be able to: 1) turn the light on and leave it on; or, 2)
turn it off and leave it off. If I do the # 1) option, I would like it to
go off at dawn and come back on at dusk. In other words, by turning or
leaving the switch on, the light works like a dusk to dawn light; but
turning the switch off turns off the light. If I do the # 2) option, I
would like the light to come on if it detects motion. In that case, I have
the light switched off, but it still retains its motion sensing function and
comes on when it detects motion.

The problem I have is that the lights that I find for sale have that "flip
the switch on-and-off routine" as a way to enable or disable the functions I
want. I don't want to have to go through that process where the switching
sequence and timing supposedly programs the function(s) I want to work.
Maybe I could deal with that on my own house, but that is too confusing for
tenants or occupants of other properties that I own but do not live in
myself.

So, I was hoping that your 3-wire setup was a way to make the light function
the way I want it to function without the flip-a-switch programming routine.

But, I do like your idea of having the light trigger an inside buzzer or
pilot light to notify the occupants that the light outside has been trigered
by motion.

On Jan 10, 1:10*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2010-01-10, Limp Arbor wrote:

snip

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

If you modify a circuit, then you have to put in an AFCI breaker if
required. *Under the 2005 NEC, it is just circuit with outlets in
bedrooms ("outlet" includes receptacles and any other boxes, like
smoke detectors). *Under the 2008 NEC, the requirement is much broader
and you should check the details.

Cheers, Wayne

I guess I'll call the building inspector tomorrow to find out which
one has been adopted in NJ and what local changes if any have been
adopted in my town.

$50 a pop for AFCIs !

Any cheaper source?

On Jan 10, 5:37�pm, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jan 10, 1:10�pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2010-01-10, Limp Arbor wrote:

snip

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

If you modify a circuit, then you have to put in an AFCI breaker if
required. �Under the 2005 NEC, it is just circuit with outlets in
bedrooms ("outlet" includes receptacles and any other boxes, like
smoke detectors). �Under the 2008 NEC, the requirement is much broader
and you should check the details.

Cheers, Wayne

I guess I'll call the building inspector tomorrow to find out which
one has been adopted in NJ and what local changes if any have been
adopted in my town.

$50 a pop for AFCIs !

Any cheaper source?

Why is OP doing a COMPLETE rewire?

For a lot less work and expense he may be able to selectively upgrade
kitchen and bath, replace main service and just run new circuits to
heavy loads.

just wondering cause a complete gut and replace is hard work and very
disruptive, and better done if your gutting the home and say
insulating too.

Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:
1 dishwasher
1 microwave/hood
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
1 radon fan
1 dining room
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

Of course the biggest problem will be running wire to the attic for
the second floor circuits. I plan on using 12 ga for almost
everything to account for the distance even though it will be harder
to pull. Are you allowed to 'hang' wire from the attic to the
basement or do I have to make holes in the walls to staple it every
few feet?

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?


I'd worry more about the electricity usage than the square feet.
My house was wired by an idiot electrician. I have the living room,
two bathrooms and the master bedroom on ONE 15A circuit. It could
just about handle the six 60W lamps and the space heater in the
bathroom. Much more than that blew the breaker.

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:25:58 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Limp Arbor wrote:
I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need. From what I understand I need a dedicated circuit
for each of these:


I'm not 100% sure of what is currently required , and it will be
different in Canada and the US. Canada USUALLY has higher requirements
than the USA. To the best of my recollection:

1 dishwasher
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit

Definitely recommended, and I believe in Canada required if hardwired
- possibly get away with a "disconnect" - and it will depend if it has
a "sanitizer" (built in water heater)
1 microwave/hood
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit
Definitely required in Canada
1 refrigerator
1 basement fridge (gfci since basement? or not since fridge?)
GFCI required in unfinished areas of basement; not smart to plug refrigerator
into a GFCI

GFCI NOT required for refrigerator in Basement - but MUST be a
dedicated outlet.
1 washing machine
3 kitchen - minimum of two 20 amp circuits w/no more than two outlets
per circuit
Not required by Code to be limited to 2 outlets per circuit
I believe it is in Canada
(two counters 1 is 4' the other 8')
1 gas furnace
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit
Is in Canada
1 radon fan
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit

Definitely recommended
1 dining room
Not required by Code to be on a dedicated circuit
1 laundry room (in addition to washing machine)
6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

Canadian code is an outlet within 6 feet of any occupied area of the
house.

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:40:33 -0500, "Jay-T"
wrote:


Thanks. Maybe I should start a separate thread on this.

I would like to be able to: 1) turn the light on and leave it on; or, 2)
turn it off and leave it off. If I do the # 1) option, I would like it to
go off at dawn and come back on at dusk. In other words, by turning or
leaving the switch on, the light works like a dusk to dawn light; but
turning the switch off turns off the light. If I do the # 2) option, I
would like the light to come on if it detects motion. In that case, I have
the light switched off, but it still retains its motion sensing function and
comes on when it detects motion.

Easy way to do this. Get an electronic timer switch with an over-ride.
The light will not come on unless the timer says yes and the motion
sensor says yes. Then add a parallel "bypass" switch that turns the
lights on regardless of what the timer or motion detector says. The
over-ride function allows you to turn the motion detector portion of
the ,light off, or on, when the timer says to do the opposite.

The problem I have is that the lights that I find for sale have that "flip
the switch on-and-off routine" as a way to enable or disable the functions I
want. I don't want to have to go through that process where the switching
sequence and timing supposedly programs the function(s) I want to work.
Maybe I could deal with that on my own house, but that is too confusing for
tenants or occupants of other properties that I own but do not live in
myself.

So, I was hoping that your 3-wire setup was a way to make the light function
the way I want it to function without the flip-a-switch programming routine.

The 3 wire would be a requirement for the system I described.

But, I do like your idea of having the light trigger an inside buzzer or
pilot light to notify the occupants that the light outside has been trigered
by motion.

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:36:58 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 10, 5:37?pm, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jan 10, 1:10?pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2010-01-10, Limp Arbor wrote:

snip

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

If you modify a circuit, then you have to put in an AFCI breaker if
required. ?Under the 2005 NEC, it is just circuit with outlets in
bedrooms ("outlet" includes receptacles and any other boxes, like
smoke detectors). ?Under the 2008 NEC, the requirement is much broader
and you should check the details.

Cheers, Wayne

I guess I'll call the building inspector tomorrow to find out which
one has been adopted in NJ and what local changes if any have been
adopted in my town.

$50 a pop for AFCIs !

Any cheaper source?

Why is OP doing a COMPLETE rewire?

For a lot less work and expense he may be able to selectively upgrade
kitchen and bath, replace main service and just run new circuits to
heavy loads.

just wondering cause a complete gut and replace is hard work and very
disruptive, and better done if your gutting the home and say
insulating too.

Perhaps he has ungrounded early romex, or early aluminum wire?
Or perhaps the wiring has proven to be inadequate, and the original
layout is so convoluted that just rewiring is so much simpler to
figure out???

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2010-01-10, Limp Arbor wrote:

I'm going to be rewiring my entire 2 story 4 br house so how many
circuits do I need.


IMHO Wayne has the best and most complete answer.

6 remainder of house - 1 circuit per 600 square ft

How you divide up the remainder of the house is up to you, the NEC
does not have a 1 circuit per X square feet requirement. Is there a
local code?

One calculation is at 3 watts per square foot which gives 1 circuit
(15A) per 600 sq. ft. But there are alternate calculations and some of
the required circuits may count.

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Am I missing anything?

As someone said, a 20A circuit for the bathroom(s).

Lighting circuits and smoke alarms? Whether to wire those separately
to mix them with general use receptacles is a personal preference.

Smoke alarms and carbon monoxide alarms are not a NEC requirement but
may well be required by state or local codes.

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

If you modify a circuit, then you have to put in an AFCI breaker if
required. Under the 2005 NEC, it is just circuit with outlets in
bedrooms ("outlet" includes receptacles and any other boxes, like
smoke detectors). Under the 2008 NEC, the requirement is much broader
and you should check the details.

Generally in the 2008 NEC if a circuit does not require a GFCI it
requires AFCI protection. There is a list.

==============
I have major doubts the OP has a realistic idea of the difficulty if
walls are not open. Or the amount of work involved.

The OP should have _at least one real good book_ on wiring based on the
NEC version that will be enforced. That book should have answered many
of the questions that were asked. And, for example, there were minimal
questions about where GFCIs are required. Or what rooms the kitchen
appliance circuits have to supply.

The OP had best make a floor plan, with all the electric indicated, and
run it past the inspector. There are *numerous* gotchas that are
possible. Like, with a "complete rewire" will receptacle spacing have to
meet the requirements for new construction. The attitude of the
inspector will make a huge difference in how smoothly the job will go.
If I was the inspector my attitude would not be very good unless the OP
has done a *lot* more research. The inspector does not have to tell you
how to do the work, and you may find out there is a problem when the
inspector tags it.

While you can get good answers to limited questions on this newsgroup,
this question is way to broad to give a very complete answer.

--
bud--

On Jan 10, 10:53*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:36:58 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Jan 10, 5:37?pm, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jan 10, 1:10?pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2010-01-10, Limp Arbor wrote:

snip

Do I have to use the AFCI breakers or are they only required if I
replace the main panel?

If you modify a circuit, then you have to put in an AFCI breaker if
required. ?Under the 2005 NEC, it is just circuit with outlets in
bedrooms ("outlet" includes receptacles and any other boxes, like
smoke detectors). ?Under the 2008 NEC, the requirement is much broader
and you should check the details.

Cheers, Wayne

I guess I'll call the building inspector tomorrow to find out which
one has been adopted in NJ and what local changes if any have been
adopted in my town.

$50 a pop for AFCIs !

Any cheaper source?

Why is OP doing a COMPLETE rewire?

For a lot less work and expense he may be able to selectively upgrade
kitchen and bath, replace main service and just run new circuits to
heavy loads.

just wondering cause a complete gut and replace is hard work and very
disruptive, and better done if your gutting the home and say
insulating too.

Perhaps he has ungrounded early romex, or early aluminum wire?
Or perhaps the wiring has proven to be inadequate, and the original
layout is so convoluted that just rewiring is so much simpler to
figure out???- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why you ask? All 3 of the reasons you mention.
1 Aluminum wiring.
Ends have snapped off in 50% of the locations I have touched, like
when changing the ceiling fixtures. One flickering utility light in
the basement turned out to have burned loose wire in the box. I have
also had breakers trip because the load wires attached to the breakers
had softened and worked loose from deformation.
2 Inadequate.
SWMBO's 50,000 Watt hair dryer dims most of the upstairs lights when
powered on. House was built in 70s when nobody had computers,
monitors, printers, cell phones, etc.
3 Convoluted.
Before I start I'll need to map the entire house outlet by outlet
because things that may be up to code make no sense. When the toaster
and coffee pot are on and someone trips the breaker by turning on the
microwave the basement lights also go out.

On Jan 10, 4:40*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

You may want to add a couple of 20 amp Edison circuits for the
kitchen. I have two double duplex circuits that are above the kitchen
counter for things like toasters, electric skillets, deep fryers.... A
third would sometimes be handy. Bathrooms can need more current than
you think. Two blow dryers going at once will pop a breaker. An outlet
inside a closet can come in handy. I use it to keep things like cell
phones and iPods recharged. My wireless router is there too. Another
closet has a vacuum cleaner plugged in and ready to go. If you
decorate for Xmas having outles handy for plugging in the tree and
such without having to drag out all the extension cords you can find
is really nice. Got a garage? having outlets just inside the doors is
very handy, mine had one in the middle of each wall. That location was
mostly useless. Think about your lifestyle, "where" may be more
important than "how many".

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

While Edison circuits would make the number of pulls less I plan on
staying away from them.

I don't know how common the floating common or 'hot' common problems
are but I don't need to take the chance. Lowes has 1,000' of 12/2 for
$260 so wire isn't that expensive.

Also the next guy might be very surprised to find 220v in a junction
box under the sink.