On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New Year's Eve by a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion before with
people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.
Terminal velocity is terminal velocity. Maybe a 50cal steel jacketed
pointed bullet would have enough force to pierce a roof - and still be
lethal.

I'd be more likely to believe some gangbanger shot his 9mm a block
away- the shot went high, hit the roof & ricocheted down. [tile roof?
hit a pipe?]

48hours later and no Reuters or AP followup. It is a holiday
weekend-- but "4yr-old shot in church" seems like what the news-sharks
love. Maybe they're all still too hungover.

This impossible bullet penetrated
both the roof and the boy's skull.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581741,00.html


Little more detail here-
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/4-yea...602.html?imw=Y

Jim

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:
I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.
Terminal velocity is terminal velocity. Maybe a 50cal steel jacketed
pointed bullet would have enough force to pierce a roof - and still be
lethal.

I'd be more likely to believe some gangbanger shot his 9mm a block
away- the shot went high, hit the roof & ricocheted down. [tile roof?
hit a pipe?]

48hours later and no Reuters or AP followup. It is a holiday
weekend-- but "4yr-old shot in church" seems like what the news-sharks
love. Maybe they're all still too hungover.

This impossible bullet penetrated
both the roof and the boy's skull.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581741,00.html


Little more detail here-
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/4-yea...602.html?imw=Y

Jim

Will you people do a little research on the guns and bullets.

A bullet fired from small caliber guns (say a 30/06 or smaller) at a 90 deg
angle will fall back to earth at the terminal velocity of a droped bullet
from a great height. This is usually not high enough to do much if any
damage unless hit in the eye. If the bullet is fired at any other angel
the velocity will be much greater.
At around 3 miles the 30/06 will hit around 800 fps. This is almost as fast
as a bullet fired at close range out of a 38 special handgun. The bullets
from many small caliber guns can kill at ranges from 1/2 to 2 miles.

http://askville.amazon.com/shooting-...uestId=3928729

On 1/2/2010 10:31 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 07:41:00 -0600, Jim
wrote:

there's one revolver that moves the cylinder against the frame and seals
the gap,it was designed to accept a suppressor. Nagant,IIRC.

Dan Wesson makes a line of revolvers with an adjustable
cylinder/barrel gap that does fairly well with a suppressor.


Don't forget the Russian Nagant revolver. (no cylinder gap, and the
front of the cartridge forms a gasket with the right ammo)

I've got one; it's so ugly it's cute. :-)

Bob

On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 16:09:47 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New Year's Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion before with
people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.
Terminal velocity is terminal velocity. Maybe a 50cal steel jacketed
pointed bullet would have enough force to pierce a roof - and still be
lethal.

I'd be more likely to believe some gangbanger shot his 9mm a block
away- the shot went high, hit the roof & ricocheted down. [tile roof?
hit a pipe?]

48hours later and no Reuters or AP followup. It is a holiday
weekend-- but "4yr-old shot in church" seems like what the news-sharks
love. Maybe they're all still too hungover.

This impossible bullet penetrated
both the roof and the boy's skull.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581741,00.html


Little more detail here-
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/4-yea...602.html?imw=Y

Jim

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT believe
me. Google it and read about real deaths.

Steve


One .50 cal round may have traveled 5 miles...

"A NASCAR fan hit by a stray bullet inside her RV is recovering at
Harris Methodist Hospital in Fort Worth."

""I thought I was hit by lightning, the explosion was so loud," Jill
King said from her hospital bed. "I still can feel it all. I still can
hear that explosion."

"Jill was at the Texas Motor Speedway, with her family, when the
bullet pierced the roof of RV and hit her right arm. "

video:

http://cbs11tv.com/local/Jill.King.TMS.2.855534.html

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New Year's Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion before with
people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.
Terminal velocity is terminal velocity. Maybe a 50cal steel jacketed
pointed bullet would have enough force to pierce a roof - and still be
lethal.

I'd be more likely to believe some gangbanger shot his 9mm a block
away- the shot went high, hit the roof & ricocheted down. [tile roof?
hit a pipe?]

48hours later and no Reuters or AP followup. It is a holiday
weekend-- but "4yr-old shot in church" seems like what the news-sharks
love. Maybe they're all still too hungover.

This impossible bullet penetrated
both the roof and the boy's skull.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581741,00.html


Little more detail here-
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/4-yea...602.html?imw=Y

Jim

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT believe
me. Google it and read about real deaths.

Steve

"Steve B" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New Year's Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion before with
people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.

-snip-

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT believe
me. Google it and read about real deaths.

I've searched today and in the past. I haven't seen any credible
evidence that a *falling* bullet is likely to kill anyone.

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times. Both
times they determined that there is very little umph left in a falling
bullet.

I did find this interesting page-
In 1920 the Army determined that a 150 gr. bullet shot straight up
came down blunt end first and only had 30 foot-pounds of energy. It
made a 1/16" dent in softwood.
"They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity
of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed
time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated
that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in
31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds."
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

It would take *some* falling bullet to penetrate a roof- then kill
even a child.

I don't doubt that people die every day from *stray* bullets-- but
there is a world of difference between stray and falling.

Jim

On Dec 31 2009, 11:07*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Some years ago, my father's friend Vic got tired of the
squirrel in his feeder. As, I remember Dad telling the
story. Vic used to be a machinist. He is a vetran of world
war II. He died, some years ago. So, Vic's answer was to get
his .22 rifle, and shoot the squirrel. Another squirrel came
along, and also met his death. Vic gave up, after the 300th
squirrel.

A few years back, a series of drought years brought the squirrels out
of the woods and onto our bird feeder. I put out two Have-A-Heart
traps and it was a rare day when I didn't catch a pair. I'd drive them
across the river on the way to work the next morning and drop them off
in a deserted area. I kept track of this activity and after
transporting 70+ squirrels, I'd had enough. The next Saturday morning,
I saw a squirrel in the yard and dropped him with the 20 gauge. That
afternoon, I shot another. After that, we didn't see a squirrel for
months.

I guess word gets around in the squirrel community. At first, they
knew they could get a good meal at my place, followed by a fun ride
across the river. Then they heard it was dangerous out there and stuck
to the woods.

We live out in a semi-rural area. If we hear a shot nearby, we figure
one of the neighbors had good cause to shoot something and is skilled
enough that we don't have to worry about stray shots.

Paul

On Dec 30 2009, 7:13 pm, "Walter R." wrote:
I am sick and tired of seeing the rabbits eat my newly planted aptenia
iceplant.

They do not even look at my new rabbit trap, what with all the lush green
plants around them.

This is war. What kind of air rifle and pellets should I look for to shoot
rabbits at about 50 feet?


Andy comments;

I use a Crossman with a 4X scope on it. It shoots at 1200 feet per
second
and I use it with good effect on both squirrels (tree rats) and
rabbits (ground rats).

You can get a look at air rifles of this type by googling "high
power air rifles"

Gamo currently has one for around $130 including the scopy, and
you DO
want the scope, since you only have one shot at a time and need to
make it
count.

Good luck, I have felt your pain and my situation has been dealt
with
successfully....

Also, you can google "rabbit recipes" and "squirrel recipes" and
there
are hundreds, tho I would recommend stewing the victim until the meat
falls off (about 1 hour at just boiling) and throwing in some potatoes
and carrots, then garlic/salt/black pepper... or whatever.....

Be careful when cleaning the rabbit. You need to be on the
lookout
for tuleremia (rabbit fever) and that is done by checking the liver.
It can
all be googled. Lots of stuff....

Andy in Eureka, Texas


Eureka, site of the best Korean Barbeque Restaurant in Texas, located
on the main highway beside the animal shelter......

Pavel314 wrote:
On Dec 31 2009, 11:07 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Some years ago, my father's friend Vic got tired of the
squirrel in his feeder. As, I remember Dad telling the
story. Vic used to be a machinist. He is a vetran of world
war II. He died, some years ago. So, Vic's answer was to get
his .22 rifle, and shoot the squirrel. Another squirrel came
along, and also met his death. Vic gave up, after the 300th
squirrel.

A few years back, a series of drought years brought the squirrels out
of the woods and onto our bird feeder. I put out two Have-A-Heart
traps and it was a rare day when I didn't catch a pair. I'd drive them
across the river on the way to work the next morning and drop them off
in a deserted area. I kept track of this activity and after
transporting 70+ squirrels, I'd had enough. The next Saturday morning,
I saw a squirrel in the yard and dropped him with the 20 gauge. That
afternoon, I shot another. After that, we didn't see a squirrel for
months.

I guess word gets around in the squirrel community. At first, they
knew they could get a good meal at my place, followed by a fun ride
across the river. Then they heard it was dangerous out there and stuck
to the woods.

We live out in a semi-rural area. If we hear a shot nearby, we figure
one of the neighbors had good cause to shoot something and is skilled
enough that we don't have to worry about stray shots.

Paul

Sure it wasn't the same couple of squirrels, over and over? Mice, you
have to take at least a mile. Racoon, several miles. (Buddy of mine at
work got curious, and painted the tails of the ones he caught before he
took them 2-3 miles. Back within 48 hours. He said the hell with being
nice, and shot them.) I imagine squirrels fall someplace in the middle.

--
aem sends...

Angels can fly, and thus dodge the bullets.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

If the bullet is fired at any other angel
the velocity will be much greater.

[snip]

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times. Both
times they determined that there is very little umph left in a falling
bullet.

You left out the other part. While the vertical velocity (falling) is
too small, it's nearly impossible to fire a gun straight up (0
horizontal velocity). People can still be shot be those bullets.

[snip]

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
"Steve B" wrote:

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-
Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New Year's Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion before with
people wailing that it is impossible.
I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.

-snip-

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT believe
me. Google it and read about real deaths.

I've searched today and in the past. I haven't seen any credible
evidence that a *falling* bullet is likely to kill anyone.

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times. Both
times they determined that there is very little umph left in a falling
bullet.

I did find this interesting page-
In 1920 the Army determined that a 150 gr. bullet shot straight up
came down blunt end first and only had 30 foot-pounds of energy. It
made a 1/16" dent in softwood.
"They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity
of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed
time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated
that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in
31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds."
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

It would take *some* falling bullet to penetrate a roof- then kill
even a child.

I don't doubt that people die every day from *stray* bullets-- but
there is a world of difference between stray and falling.

Jim

Here's the Mythbuster's take on the subject:

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/e...red_up_vo.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDB838Vi6hw

TDD

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New Year's Eve
by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion before with
people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.

-snip-

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT believe
me. Google it and read about real deaths.

I've searched today and in the past. I haven't seen any credible
evidence that a *falling* bullet is likely to kill anyone.

Perhaps you should have just googled "falling bullet kills". Where did you
look? In your garage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-it-comes-down

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22105604/detail.html

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/u...4;t=000739;p=1

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4084756/detail.html

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times. Both
times they determined that there is very little umph left in a falling
bullet.

Ahhhh. True scientists and forensic experts. Not to mention both are on
medical marijuana.


I did find this interesting page-
In 1920 the Army determined that a 150 gr. bullet shot straight up
came down blunt end first and only had 30 foot-pounds of energy. It
made a 1/16" dent in softwood.
"They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity
of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed
time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated
that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in
31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds."
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

Ninety year old science?


It would take *some* falling bullet to penetrate a roof- then kill
even a child.

Small children have very very very very very soft bones in their heads. Did
I say they have soft bones in their heads, particularly on top where it
takes decades to completely grow thicker and toughen?


I don't doubt that people die every day from *stray* bullets-- but
there is a world of difference between stray and falling.

Jim

Not if you're the dead person. They don't wonder a lot at all.

Well, then, I guess that ends the matter. You have spoken. We can throw
out all the facts, anecdotal evidence, and files on people killed from
falling bullets.

But, I would say that several stories where the bullet came through the
roof, then entered the person establishes a trajectory. But then, I am
nowhere as smart as you, as you can examine evidence thousands of miles
away, and determine forensics without ever being at the site.

You may and will continue to believe whatever you want. As for me, I shall
read the reports from time to time on deaths caused from falling bullets.

And as for Mythbusters ................... They should get hold of the
police agencies and point out the errors of their investigations and get the
REAL perpetrators. We all know that if it is on TV or on the radio or in
the papers, it HAS to be true.

Have you heard the latest rumor? The earth is round!

Steve

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 30 2009, 7:13 pm, "Walter R." wrote:
I am sick and tired of seeing the rabbits eat my newly planted aptenia
iceplant.

They do not even look at my new rabbit trap, what with all the lush green
plants around them.

This is war. What kind of air rifle and pellets should I look for to
shoot
rabbits at about 50 feet?

I am making a 55 gallon trap. It is a plastic barrel with a trap door on
top that they activate by pushing a release. They then drown in the barrel,
and a small spring returns the door to ready position. I have used the soda
can on a string over a barrel of water, and it works quite well. With this,
they won't be able to see the dead ones, and may be less cautious. Our rock
squirrels in Utah are very wary.

Steve

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 30 2009, 7:13 pm, "Walter R." wrote:
I am sick and tired of seeing the rabbits eat my newly planted aptenia
iceplant.

They do not even look at my new rabbit trap, what with all the lush
green
plants around them.

This is war. What kind of air rifle and pellets should I look for to
shoot
rabbits at about 50 feet?

I am making a 55 gallon trap. It is a plastic barrel with a trap door on
top that they activate by pushing a release. They then drown in the
barrel, and a small spring returns the door to ready position. I have
used the soda can on a string over a barrel of water, and it works quite
well. With this, they won't be able to see the dead ones, and may be
less cautious. Our rock squirrels in Utah are very wary.

Steve
You ever heard the term 'sweeping the beach'?

--
aem sends...

Yabbut .......

In our part of the country, the squirrels are special.

http://www.desertusa.com/animals/rock_squirrel.html

There are few trees big enough for them to nest in. The ones who do nest
there don't last for long. They live in burrows. I have a small canyon
next to my house. Other than that, there is very little habitat for them,
and a lot of coyotes, their main predator. If we hit the populations in the
canyon early and often, we can limit the number greatly because they will
not pass over great distances of bare ground to expose themselves. We do
have new ones from year to year, but no great population explosions.

Steve

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
m...
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New Year's
Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion before
with people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.

-snip-

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT
believe me. Google it and read about real deaths.

I've searched today and in the past. I haven't seen any credible
evidence that a *falling* bullet is likely to kill anyone.

Perhaps you should have just googled "falling bullet kills". Where
did you look? In your garage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...t-fired-into-t
he-air-kill-someone-when-it-comes-down

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22105604/detail.html

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/u..._topic;f=104;t
=000739;p=1

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4084756/detail.html

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times.
Both times they determined that there is very little umph left in a
falling bullet.

Ahhhh. True scientists and forensic experts. Not to mention both are
on medical marijuana.


I did find this interesting page-
In 1920 the Army determined that a 150 gr. bullet shot straight up
came down blunt end first and only had 30 foot-pounds of energy. It
made a 1/16" dent in softwood.
"They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a
velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and
elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they
calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell
to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds."
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

Ninety year old science?


It would take *some* falling bullet to penetrate a roof- then kill
even a child.

Small children have very very very very very soft bones in their
heads. Did I say they have soft bones in their heads, particularly on
top where it takes decades to completely grow thicker and toughen?


I don't doubt that people die every day from *stray* bullets-- but
there is a world of difference between stray and falling.

Jim

Not if you're the dead person. They don't wonder a lot at all.

Well, then, I guess that ends the matter. You have spoken. We can
throw out all the facts, anecdotal evidence, and files on people
killed from falling bullets.

But, I would say that several stories where the bullet came through
the roof, then entered the person establishes a trajectory. But then,
I am nowhere as smart as you, as you can examine evidence thousands of
miles away, and determine forensics without ever being at the site.

You may and will continue to believe whatever you want. As for me, I
shall read the reports from time to time on deaths caused from falling
bullets.

And as for Mythbusters ................... They should get hold of
the police agencies and point out the errors of their investigations
and get the REAL perpetrators. We all know that if it is on TV or on
the radio or in the papers, it HAS to be true.

Have you heard the latest rumor? The earth is round!

Steve




the discrepancy here is that this guy is talking about bullets falling
straight down,no horizontal velocity. NOT a real-life situation.

NONE of the people killed by "falling" bullets were from bullets falling
straight down,but down in ballistic arcs,where the bullet still had
horizontal velocity adding to it's kinetic energy.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

You got me there. If it was falling straight down, it would go back into
the gun's barrel.

Steve

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 30 2009, 7:13 pm, "Walter R." wrote:
I am sick and tired of seeing the rabbits eat my newly planted
aptenia iceplant.

They do not even look at my new rabbit trap, what with all the lush
green plants around them.

This is war. What kind of air rifle and pellets should I look for to
shoot
rabbits at about 50 feet?

I am making a 55 gallon trap. It is a plastic barrel with a trap door
on top that they activate by pushing a release. They then drown in
the barrel, and a small spring returns the door to ready position. I
have used the soda can on a string over a barrel of water, and it
works quite well. With this, they won't be able to see the dead ones,
and may be less cautious. Our rock squirrels in Utah are very wary.

Steve



heh,reminds me of this video I saw on TV that an English couple shot;they
had a squirrel/bird feeder problem,and begin engineering more
difficult-to-
access bird feeders,and taped the squirrels defeating them,and it was
amazing what the rodents could get past.
it was literally squirrels running obstacle courses.
VERY entertaining.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

I have seen some of the English competitions, and it took some of the
squirrels weeks to figure out and master the course.

Steve

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
Jim Yanik wrote:
(snip)

heh,reminds me of this video I saw on TV that an English couple shot;they
had a squirrel/bird feeder problem,and begin engineering more
difficult-to-
access bird feeders,and taped the squirrels defeating them,and it was
amazing what the rodents could get past.
it was literally squirrels running obstacle courses.
VERY entertaining.


Oh, I quite agree- I don't garden (other than the weeds), so I don't care
if the rabbits and squirrels steal the birdseed that the sloppy birds
spill out of the feeders, which hang on skinny iron poles too far out in
space for the squirrels to get to directly. And they are fun to watch.
(along with the turkey and deer that wander by.) I don't use yard
chemicals or fertilizer, since I'm cheap, so I suppose my yard tastes
better to all my 4-legged guests.

I could do without the damn woodpecker boring holes in my faux chimney
stack, however.

--
aem sends...

The squirrels do damage to the fruit trees here.

Steve

I watched a guy shoot rabbits at an elementary school in a housing
neighborhood.

He used a long barrel .22 rifle and .22 short ammunition. Nobody
noticed. He shot 20 or so in an afternoon.

In my neighborhood that would be illegal AND you'd get caught. An
airgun is a bit questionable for legality but with some care I don't
think you'd get caught. You don't want a lot of power - the larger
ones are as loud as a .22 RF. You do want very careful shot
placement. That means knowing your range and trajectory very well.
Pellets don't shoot anywhere near as flat as a .22, and aren't as
forgiving with small placement errors.

But if you really want to see a guy who knows what he's doing, check
out this article in the European Stars & Stripes.
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?s...&article=39467 This guy
shoots 100 in a night!

On 1/3/2010 11:25 AM, Steve B wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Dec 30 2009, 7:13 pm, "Walter wrote:
I am sick and tired of seeing the rabbits eat my newly planted aptenia
iceplant.

They do not even look at my new rabbit trap, what with all the lush green
plants around them.

This is war. What kind of air rifle and pellets should I look for to
shoot
rabbits at about 50 feet?

I am making a 55 gallon trap. It is a plastic barrel with a trap door on
top that they activate by pushing a release. They then drown in the barrel,
and a small spring returns the door to ready position. I have used the soda
can on a string over a barrel of water, and it works quite well. With this,
they won't be able to see the dead ones, and may be less cautious. Our rock
squirrels in Utah are very wary.

Steve




OK, I'll bite. How do you teach them to climb up and push the release
button?

Bob

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:56:04 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

But if you really want to see a guy who knows what he's doing, check
out this article in the European Stars & Stripes.
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?s...&article=39467 This guy
shoots 100 in a night!

Check out Rufus _THE Bean Shooter Man_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ieWrWLjii0

Pest control, weeding his corn field or cracking walnuts.

"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
om...
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New
Year's Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion
before with people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.

-snip-

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT
believe me. Google it and read about real deaths.

I've searched today and in the past. I haven't seen any credible
evidence that a *falling* bullet is likely to kill anyone.

Perhaps you should have just googled "falling bullet kills". Where
did you look? In your garage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...let-fired-into
-t he-air-kill-someone-when-it-comes-down

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22105604/detail.html

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/u...et_topic;f=104
;t =000739;p=1

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4084756/detail.html

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times.
Both times they determined that there is very little umph left in a
falling bullet.

Ahhhh. True scientists and forensic experts. Not to mention both
are on medical marijuana.


I did find this interesting page-
In 1920 the Army determined that a 150 gr. bullet shot straight up
came down blunt end first and only had 30 foot-pounds of energy.
It made a 1/16" dent in softwood.
"They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a
velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and
elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they
calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and
fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds."
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

Ninety year old science?


It would take *some* falling bullet to penetrate a roof- then kill
even a child.

Small children have very very very very very soft bones in their
heads. Did I say they have soft bones in their heads, particularly
on top where it takes decades to completely grow thicker and
toughen?


I don't doubt that people die every day from *stray* bullets-- but
there is a world of difference between stray and falling.

Jim

Not if you're the dead person. They don't wonder a lot at all.

Well, then, I guess that ends the matter. You have spoken. We can
throw out all the facts, anecdotal evidence, and files on people
killed from falling bullets.

But, I would say that several stories where the bullet came through
the roof, then entered the person establishes a trajectory. But
then, I am nowhere as smart as you, as you can examine evidence
thousands of miles away, and determine forensics without ever being
at the site.

You may and will continue to believe whatever you want. As for me,
I shall read the reports from time to time on deaths caused from
falling bullets.

And as for Mythbusters ................... They should get hold of
the police agencies and point out the errors of their investigations
and get the REAL perpetrators. We all know that if it is on TV or
on the radio or in the papers, it HAS to be true.

Have you heard the latest rumor? The earth is round!

Steve




the discrepancy here is that this guy is talking about bullets
falling straight down,no horizontal velocity. NOT a real-life
situation.

NONE of the people killed by "falling" bullets were from bullets
falling straight down,but down in ballistic arcs,where the bullet
still had horizontal velocity adding to it's kinetic energy.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

You got me there. If it was falling straight down, it would go back
into the gun's barrel.

Steve




minor wind drift would preclude that from happening.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"Steve B" wrote in
news

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Andy" wrote in message
.
..
On Dec 30 2009, 7:13 pm, "Walter R." wrote:
I am sick and tired of seeing the rabbits eat my newly planted
aptenia iceplant.

They do not even look at my new rabbit trap, what with all the
lush green plants around them.

This is war. What kind of air rifle and pellets should I look for
to shoot
rabbits at about 50 feet?

I am making a 55 gallon trap. It is a plastic barrel with a trap
door on top that they activate by pushing a release. They then
drown in the barrel, and a small spring returns the door to ready
position. I have used the soda can on a string over a barrel of
water, and it works quite well. With this, they won't be able to
see the dead ones, and may be less cautious. Our rock squirrels in
Utah are very wary.

Steve



heh,reminds me of this video I saw on TV that an English couple
shot;they had a squirrel/bird feeder problem,and begin engineering
more difficult-to-
access bird feeders,and taped the squirrels defeating them,and it was
amazing what the rodents could get past.
it was literally squirrels running obstacle courses.
VERY entertaining.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

I have seen some of the English competitions, and it took some of the
squirrels weeks to figure out and master the course.

Steve




On America's Funniest Home Videos tonight,they had a clip of a plastic bird
feeder suction-cupped to a window,and the squirrel was leaping from a patio
chair straight into the feeder opening,more than once.
Not any great acrobatic stuff,but funny.The opening in the feeder wasn't
all that big.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
news:11ruj5hkddpgf1e1n2c7ukg62a5gjlq7nj@4ax. com...
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New
Year's Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion
before with people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.

-snip-

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT
believe me. Google it and read about real deaths.

I've searched today and in the past. I haven't seen any credible
evidence that a *falling* bullet is likely to kill anyone.

Perhaps you should have just googled "falling bullet kills". Where
did you look? In your garage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...let-fired-into
-t he-air-kill-someone-when-it-comes-down

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22105604/detail.html

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/u...et_topic;f=104
;t =000739;p=1

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4084756/detail.html

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times.
Both times they determined that there is very little umph left in a
falling bullet.

Ahhhh. True scientists and forensic experts. Not to mention both
are on medical marijuana.


I did find this interesting page-
In 1920 the Army determined that a 150 gr. bullet shot straight up
came down blunt end first and only had 30 foot-pounds of energy.
It made a 1/16" dent in softwood.
"They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a
velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and
elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they
calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and
fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds."
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

Ninety year old science?


It would take *some* falling bullet to penetrate a roof- then kill
even a child.

Small children have very very very very very soft bones in their
heads. Did I say they have soft bones in their heads, particularly
on top where it takes decades to completely grow thicker and
toughen?


I don't doubt that people die every day from *stray* bullets-- but
there is a world of difference between stray and falling.

Jim

Not if you're the dead person. They don't wonder a lot at all.

Well, then, I guess that ends the matter. You have spoken. We can
throw out all the facts, anecdotal evidence, and files on people
killed from falling bullets.

But, I would say that several stories where the bullet came through
the roof, then entered the person establishes a trajectory. But
then, I am nowhere as smart as you, as you can examine evidence
thousands of miles away, and determine forensics without ever being
at the site.

You may and will continue to believe whatever you want. As for me,
I shall read the reports from time to time on deaths caused from
falling bullets.

And as for Mythbusters ................... They should get hold of
the police agencies and point out the errors of their investigations
and get the REAL perpetrators. We all know that if it is on TV or
on the radio or in the papers, it HAS to be true.

Have you heard the latest rumor? The earth is round!

Steve




the discrepancy here is that this guy is talking about bullets
falling straight down,no horizontal velocity. NOT a real-life
situation.

NONE of the people killed by "falling" bullets were from bullets
falling straight down,but down in ballistic arcs,where the bullet
still had horizontal velocity adding to it's kinetic energy.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

You got me there. If it was falling straight down, it would go back
into the gun's barrel.

Steve




minor wind drift would preclude that from happening.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Then wouldn't that make the trajectory parabolic, and thus meet the
parameters you set to make it fatal?

Steve

"Steve B" wrote in news:63d817-
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
news:11ruj5hkddpgf1e1n2c7ukg62a5gjlq7nj@4ax .com...
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New
Year's Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion
before with people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.

-snip-

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT
believe me. Google it and read about real deaths.

I've searched today and in the past. I haven't seen any credible
evidence that a *falling* bullet is likely to kill anyone.

Perhaps you should have just googled "falling bullet kills". Where
did you look? In your garage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...let-fired-into
-t he-air-kill-someone-when-it-comes-down

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22105604/detail.html

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/u...et_topic;f=104
;t =000739;p=1

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4084756/detail.html

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times.
Both times they determined that there is very little umph left in a
falling bullet.

Ahhhh. True scientists and forensic experts. Not to mention both
are on medical marijuana.


I did find this interesting page-
In 1920 the Army determined that a 150 gr. bullet shot straight up
came down blunt end first and only had 30 foot-pounds of energy.
It made a 1/16" dent in softwood.
"They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a
velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and
elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they
calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and
fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds."
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

Ninety year old science?


It would take *some* falling bullet to penetrate a roof- then kill
even a child.

Small children have very very very very very soft bones in their
heads. Did I say they have soft bones in their heads, particularly
on top where it takes decades to completely grow thicker and
toughen?


I don't doubt that people die every day from *stray* bullets-- but
there is a world of difference between stray and falling.

Jim

Not if you're the dead person. They don't wonder a lot at all.

Well, then, I guess that ends the matter. You have spoken. We can
throw out all the facts, anecdotal evidence, and files on people
killed from falling bullets.

But, I would say that several stories where the bullet came through
the roof, then entered the person establishes a trajectory. But
then, I am nowhere as smart as you, as you can examine evidence
thousands of miles away, and determine forensics without ever being
at the site.

You may and will continue to believe whatever you want. As for me,
I shall read the reports from time to time on deaths caused from
falling bullets.

And as for Mythbusters ................... They should get hold of
the police agencies and point out the errors of their investigations
and get the REAL perpetrators. We all know that if it is on TV or
on the radio or in the papers, it HAS to be true.

Have you heard the latest rumor? The earth is round!

Steve




the discrepancy here is that this guy is talking about bullets
falling straight down,no horizontal velocity. NOT a real-life
situation.

NONE of the people killed by "falling" bullets were from bullets
falling straight down,but down in ballistic arcs,where the bullet
still had horizontal velocity adding to it's kinetic energy.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

You got me there. If it was falling straight down, it would go back
into the gun's barrel.

Steve




minor wind drift would preclude that from happening.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Then wouldn't that make the trajectory parabolic, and thus meet the
parameters you set to make it fatal?

Steve




No,wind drift could move it in several directions,depending on prevalent
winds at different altitudes,even move it one way then back like a "s",and
possibly at different rates of drift,too.
And a parabolic trajectory would mean the pointy end is coming down.

what I'm trying to say is that no one has been killed by a bullet dropping
back on them or even right next to the shooter;the kills have all been
large distances away,meaning a parabolic trajectory.
(IOW,they were not shooting "straight up",probably not even nearly straight
up.)

Now,a bullet travelling long distances will still lose a lot of energy,but
keep enough to harm someone.(muzzle velocity vs terminal velocity)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Jan 3, 4:56*pm, TimR wrote:


But if you really want to see a guy who knows what he's doing, check
out this article in the European Stars & Stripes.http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?s...cle=39467*This guy
shoots 100 in a night!

That shooter is in the UK and limited to 12 foot-pounds before his
airrifle becomes a firearm. I don't remember offhand how fast that
is, somewhere in the 800 fps range though.

Note that he does most of his shooting at night with a light.
"lamping"

I didn't recognize the particular airgun but have been told it's
probably a Theoben Fenman, which is going to be above your budget.

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Steve B" wrote in news:63d817-
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Steve B" wrote in
:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
news:11ruj5hkddpgf1e1n2c7ukg62a5gjlq7nj@4a x.com...
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:01:48 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

-snip-

Heard today that a 4 year old child was killed at church New
Year's Eve by
a
falling bullet in Decatur, Ga. I have seen this discussion
before with people wailing that it is impossible.

I'm not wailing-- but I am skeptical.

-snip-

Count the dead people. That should cure your skepticism. DO NOT
believe me. Google it and read about real deaths.

I've searched today and in the past. I haven't seen any credible
evidence that a *falling* bullet is likely to kill anyone.

Perhaps you should have just googled "falling bullet kills". Where
did you look? In your garage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...let-fired-into
-t he-air-kill-someone-when-it-comes-down

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22105604/detail.html

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/u...et_topic;f=104
;t =000739;p=1

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4084756/detail.html

Mythbusters has visited the falling bullet theory a couple times.
Both times they determined that there is very little umph left in a
falling bullet.

Ahhhh. True scientists and forensic experts. Not to mention both
are on medical marijuana.


I did find this interesting page-
In 1920 the Army determined that a 150 gr. bullet shot straight up
came down blunt end first and only had 30 foot-pounds of energy.
It made a 1/16" dent in softwood.
"They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a
velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and
elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they
calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and
fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds."
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

Ninety year old science?


It would take *some* falling bullet to penetrate a roof- then kill
even a child.

Small children have very very very very very soft bones in their
heads. Did I say they have soft bones in their heads, particularly
on top where it takes decades to completely grow thicker and
toughen?


I don't doubt that people die every day from *stray* bullets-- but
there is a world of difference between stray and falling.

Jim

Not if you're the dead person. They don't wonder a lot at all.

Well, then, I guess that ends the matter. You have spoken. We can
throw out all the facts, anecdotal evidence, and files on people
killed from falling bullets.

But, I would say that several stories where the bullet came through
the roof, then entered the person establishes a trajectory. But
then, I am nowhere as smart as you, as you can examine evidence
thousands of miles away, and determine forensics without ever being
at the site.

You may and will continue to believe whatever you want. As for me,
I shall read the reports from time to time on deaths caused from
falling bullets.

And as for Mythbusters ................... They should get hold of
the police agencies and point out the errors of their investigations
and get the REAL perpetrators. We all know that if it is on TV or
on the radio or in the papers, it HAS to be true.

Have you heard the latest rumor? The earth is round!

Steve




the discrepancy here is that this guy is talking about bullets
falling straight down,no horizontal velocity. NOT a real-life
situation.

NONE of the people killed by "falling" bullets were from bullets
falling straight down,but down in ballistic arcs,where the bullet
still had horizontal velocity adding to it's kinetic energy.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

You got me there. If it was falling straight down, it would go back
into the gun's barrel.

Steve




minor wind drift would preclude that from happening.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Then wouldn't that make the trajectory parabolic, and thus meet the
parameters you set to make it fatal?

Steve




No,wind drift could move it in several directions,depending on prevalent
winds at different altitudes,even move it one way then back like a "s",and
possibly at different rates of drift,too.
And a parabolic trajectory would mean the pointy end is coming down.

what I'm trying to say is that no one has been killed by a bullet dropping
back on them or even right next to the shooter;the kills have all been
large distances away,meaning a parabolic trajectory.
(IOW,they were not shooting "straight up",probably not even nearly
straight
up.)

Now,a bullet travelling long distances will still lose a lot of energy,but
keep enough to harm someone.(muzzle velocity vs terminal velocity)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Many cases have been unproven. I am not omnipotent and all knowing, so I
don't make statements like "no one has been killed by a bullet dropping
back on them or even right next to the shooter". I shall go out on a
limb, though, and say "dead is dead," and leave it at that.

I've lived long enough to think that just about anything can happen.
Unless, of course experts, the Mythbusters, or omnipotents say otherwise.

Steve