wrote:
clipped

ideas appreciated, although I'm tempted to continue with my original
approach and just shave the corner off the baseboard molding.

(y'know, it would have saved me a lot of trouble if whoever had split
the one big room into two little ones and a hallway had done the
wiring *right,* but hey, where's the challenge in that?)

nate

It might be an off the wall idea (now I know where that expression comes
from), but the Dremel tile grout remover might work. Any bit that works
on wood plus the little jig for grout removing. I haven't tried it on
wood, and the jig has a little tip that fits into the grout space as a
guide....you can push or pull along a line (one is the approved method
for grout and I don't recall which it was, as I did both). Should be
quick work to run a fine channel in wood; went pretty quickly in grout.

hmm, my dad got me a Craftsman thing that looks like a Fein Multimaster
clone for xmas, maybe I'll get an excuse to use it right away? Maybe
channelling plaster might be easier than trying to shave the molding.
If you see my other post, I think I can get away from running around the
baseboard in the one bedroom; the one that I'd still need to do would
involve running it around two walls that are plaster.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Twayne wrote:
In ,
Nate Nagel typed:
RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 24, 6:01 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
I'm still trying to put all my electrical stuff to rights... part of
that process is providing a few auxiliary grounds upstairs so that
the previous renovation work that was wired with grounded Romex
will in fact be properly grounded. I need to peel back some
baseboard to do this. Unfortunately, one wall is thin wood
paneling, not plaster. I started by trying to pull the baseboard
there, as that's where I need to run the first wire. Apparently
the baseboard is held on by nails that are stronger than your
average finishing nail. I cut through the paint and managed to
separate the top of the baseboard from the wall with a thick putty
knife; that's where I'm stuck. The putty knife is not strong
enough to pry it free; I haven't pulled it away from the wall far
enough to try a pry bar, and a screwdriver mars the paneling. Any
ideas? Should I just keep doing what I'm doing, then cut the nails
with a hacksaw blade, or is there a tool that I ought to have
that'd work for this? Am thinking maybe run to FLAPS and buy a
gasket scraper? In case it matters, this is a three piece
baseboard - main
baseboard is a 1x4 with a piece of molding on top and a quarter
round at the floor. I really only want to get the top piece off as
I'm just going to hide a 14 AWG ground wire behind it and nail it
back on.

I like the Shark pry bar.
http://www.amazon.com/Shark-21-2225-.../dp/B0000224TY
It's got a wide whale-tail that's thin and gently curved. Does an
excellent job of getting behind trim without damaging it. As others
have noted, use something to protect the wall regardless of what type
of pry bar you use.

R

Wow, all these replies! Well, I went to the Orange Colored Store this
AM and picked up a couple different varieties of prying technology,
what ended up working was something like described above, with a 3"
paint scraper behind it to protect the paneling.

Unfortunately I seem to have come to another "gotcha." I just ASSumed
that the top part of my baseboard molding would have a little dead
space behind it, like a typical inside corner molding

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...INE&lpage=none


however, it does NOT. Now the one piece of molding that I have about
half removed has a corner missing from the one-by that makes up the
main part of the baseboard. but I can't count on this being the case
everywhere that I need to run grounds. If I had a table saw I would
be tempted to rig it up and zing the hidden part of the molding off
at a 45 degree angle to provide the space that I need, but I don't.
Do you think I should just get a small block plane and have at it?
Another approach to running ground wires? I'd originally thought to
drop them down through the walls from the attic by drilling holes in
the sill plates of the walls, but previous experience fishing wires
in this house leads me to expect lots of firestops.

It doesn't help that I have at least three different types of wall
construction that I need to deal with - wood paneling over framing
(interior walls added in previous renovation) plaster over framing
(original walls) and finally plaster over masonry (exterior wall
against chimney)

ideas appreciated, although I'm tempted to continue with my original
approach and just shave the corner off the baseboard molding.

(y'know, it would have saved me a lot of trouble if whoever had split
the one big room into two little ones and a hallway had done the
wiring *right,* but hey, where's the challenge in that?)

nate

Nate, First:
How about considering SURFACE MOUNT wiring products that might, if
conditions were right, allow you to run new, 3-wire wiring to all of
the ungrounded circuits. They don't look bad, are mostly hidden by
furniture, and can go wherever there is a place to mount them. That
would sure be faster and easier than the jerry-rig of pulling all the
baseboards. You can even add outlets along the way as you run the
surface mount wiring. It's simple, easy to use, and made for such
purposes as you seem to have. They come in pre-wired sections you
just connect together, cuttable for different lengths, and usually
made of hard plastic or aluminum so most any saw can cut them. They
have a counterpart for about anything a conduit fitting can do,
including sharp, 90 degree turns since they're molded & prewired.
WATCH THE AMPERAGES CAPABILITIES. It must be equal to or greater than
the outlet, etc. ratings. I don't recall seeing it for more than 20A
services. It costs a bit, but so does the blood, sweat, tears and
frustrations of your current approach.
Plus, you could run two easily, right from the breaker/fuse box and
everything would be a LOT closer to code, besides being so much easier.

Otherwise:
I think I understand why you're doing this, but ... are you aware that
EACH circuit from your fuse/breaker box actually should have its OWN
earth ground? It sounds like you are going to run one earth ground
wire to any/all outlets/switches etc.. They should only connect to
each other back at the breaker/fuse box.
What you're doing will work OK under no-fault conditions, but using
one wire for all circuits creates some special conditions for safety
and some headaches for future people working on the wiring. At a
minimum, IMO, you should put a sticker in your power panel indicating
which ckts share a common earth ground so that future electricians,
etc. will be forewarned of the additional work such ckts might require
for repairs. It's not as dangerous as a common neutral, but it can
create problems, some related to safety, especially in the future when
work is done for repair or maintenance.
Although earth grounds should never carry any current, under fault
conditions they -might- carry substantial current, possibly leading to
heating and overheating. If you're running plain TW this might not be
a good thing. It also seems you might be making some splices, etc.,
under that baseboard and technically those have to be done in boxes.
If I were you I'd run the wires in the attic or basement, whichever
is closest, going up and down as required. If you're talking
single-story here, the basement is going to be closest to most
outlets, of course, and likely not more than one firestop. If they're
not close enough to you for normal drill bits, get a long jobber's
drill for the task.

But I think I'd consider the surface mount idea if it were me.

Good luck,

Twayne


I'm not enamored of the wiremold option... I think I can do this
without going down that road. This is all on one circuit, and it's the
second floor of a two story house.

On thinking about this more, I think tomorrow I will go up in the attic
and replace the ceiling light box in one of the bedrooms (SWMBO wants a
ceiling fan, and the box isn't installed right to begin with) and see if
I can repull the wire from the first outlet to the ceiling box. If I
can manage that that will solve the actual code violations (wiring done
with grounded cable but not grounded, so there are boxes whose grounds
are interconnected but not connected to earth ground) I was trying to
avoid doing this due to all the insulation up there and lack of attic
floor but it seems like the only way. Then if I still have any ambition
left I will see what I can do about supplemental grounds to the existing
receps that were original to the house. The first box is grounded as it
was fed with BX unlike the rest of the wiring upstairs.

nate


Update - I just dropped all the light fixtures in the areas of concern
(two small bedrooms and a hallway; used to be one large bedroom)

when I replaced the switches I assumed this was old school switch leg
wiring because there's only one cable in each of the switch boxes, save
for the one in the hallway, which has one 3-wire coming in the top and
one 2-wire leaving the bottom, I ASSume to feed the recep a couple feet
away.

Well, there's only one cable entering each of the three ceiling boxes.
Only way I can think that this could work is if there's multiple
concealed junctions in the attic. (as a bonus all three were apparently
installed by someone who is unable to measure for height appropriately
as they are hanging down below the finished plaster. this was concealed
by large diameter light fixture bases)

Tomorrow will be a fun day. I see (puts hands to head and concentrates)
a lot of rewiring in my near future. Fun stuff!

nate

(@#$%$%^&@# previous "contractors")

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:
clipped

ideas appreciated, although I'm tempted to continue with my original
approach and just shave the corner off the baseboard molding.

(y'know, it would have saved me a lot of trouble if whoever had split
the one big room into two little ones and a hallway had done the
wiring *right,* but hey, where's the challenge in that?)

nate

It might be an off the wall idea (now I know where that expression
comes from), but the Dremel tile grout remover might work. Any bit
that works on wood plus the little jig for grout removing. I haven't
tried it on wood, and the jig has a little tip that fits into the
grout space as a guide....you can push or pull along a line (one is
the approved method for grout and I don't recall which it was, as I
did both). Should be quick work to run a fine channel in wood; went
pretty quickly in grout.

hmm, my dad got me a Craftsman thing that looks like a Fein Multimaster
clone for xmas, maybe I'll get an excuse to use it right away? Maybe
channelling plaster might be easier than trying to shave the molding. If
you see my other post, I think I can get away from running around the
baseboard in the one bedroom; the one that I'd still need to do would
involve running it around two walls that are plaster.

nate


If it works on grout, it ought to work on plaster, but haven't seen real
plaster in a long time. You would have it embedded in plaster and then
have to patch plaster. Hmm... I don't know the size of the wire you
need to run, and I'm not up on big repair jobs .. just the tinkering
level. When we moved into our condo, my hubby ran the cable for
satellite TV from the satellite in through the patio sliding door, which
always kept the door ajar a little bit. There was a hole in the outside
concrete block wall and a hole inside same place .. I got a length of
stiff plastic tubing to go through both holes, then ran the TV cable
through the tubing and pulled the tubing out from the inside when the
cable was through.

My hubby is a lot stronger than I so when I want to do something
requiring muscle and he isn't around (preferable when I am truly
inspired about a task), I need to engineer it. Usually works.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:
Twayne wrote:
In ,
Nate Nagel typed:
RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 24, 6:01 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
I'm still trying to put all my electrical stuff to rights... part of
that process is providing a few auxiliary grounds upstairs so that
the previous renovation work that was wired with grounded Romex
will in fact be properly grounded. I need to peel back some
baseboard to do this. Unfortunately, one wall is thin wood
paneling, not plaster. I started by trying to pull the baseboard
there, as that's where I need to run the first wire. Apparently
the baseboard is held on by nails that are stronger than your
average finishing nail. I cut through the paint and managed to
separate the top of the baseboard from the wall with a thick putty
knife; that's where I'm stuck. The putty knife is not strong
enough to pry it free; I haven't pulled it away from the wall far
enough to try a pry bar, and a screwdriver mars the paneling. Any
ideas? Should I just keep doing what I'm doing, then cut the nails
with a hacksaw blade, or is there a tool that I ought to have
that'd work for this? Am thinking maybe run to FLAPS and buy a
gasket scraper? In case it matters, this is a three piece
baseboard - main
baseboard is a 1x4 with a piece of molding on top and a quarter
round at the floor. I really only want to get the top piece off as
I'm just going to hide a 14 AWG ground wire behind it and nail it
back on.

I like the Shark pry bar.
http://www.amazon.com/Shark-21-2225-.../dp/B0000224TY
It's got a wide whale-tail that's thin and gently curved. Does an
excellent job of getting behind trim without damaging it. As others
have noted, use something to protect the wall regardless of what type
of pry bar you use.

R

Wow, all these replies! Well, I went to the Orange Colored Store this
AM and picked up a couple different varieties of prying technology,
what ended up working was something like described above, with a 3"
paint scraper behind it to protect the paneling.

Unfortunately I seem to have come to another "gotcha." I just ASSumed
that the top part of my baseboard molding would have a little dead
space behind it, like a typical inside corner molding

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...INE&lpage=none

however, it does NOT. Now the one piece of molding that I have about
half removed has a corner missing from the one-by that makes up the
main part of the baseboard. but I can't count on this being the case
everywhere that I need to run grounds. If I had a table saw I would
be tempted to rig it up and zing the hidden part of the molding off
at a 45 degree angle to provide the space that I need, but I don't. Do
you think I should just get a small block plane and have at it? Another
approach to running ground wires? I'd originally thought to
drop them down through the walls from the attic by drilling holes in
the sill plates of the walls, but previous experience fishing wires
in this house leads me to expect lots of firestops.

It doesn't help that I have at least three different types of wall
construction that I need to deal with - wood paneling over framing
(interior walls added in previous renovation) plaster over framing
(original walls) and finally plaster over masonry (exterior wall
against chimney)

ideas appreciated, although I'm tempted to continue with my original
approach and just shave the corner off the baseboard molding.

(y'know, it would have saved me a lot of trouble if whoever had split
the one big room into two little ones and a hallway had done the
wiring *right,* but hey, where's the challenge in that?)

nate

Nate, First:
How about considering SURFACE MOUNT wiring products that might, if
conditions were right, allow you to run new, 3-wire wiring to all of the
ungrounded circuits. They don't look bad, are mostly hidden by
furniture, and can go wherever there is a place to mount them. That
would sure be faster and easier than the jerry-rig of pulling all the
baseboards. You can even add outlets along the way as you run the
surface mount wiring. It's simple, easy to use, and made for such
purposes as you seem to have. They come in pre-wired sections you just
connect together, cuttable for different lengths, and usually made of
hard plastic or aluminum so most any saw can cut them. They have a
counterpart for about anything a conduit fitting can do, including
sharp, 90 degree turns since they're molded & prewired. WATCH THE
AMPERAGES CAPABILITIES. It must be equal to or greater than the outlet,
etc. ratings. I don't recall seeing it for more than 20A services. It
costs a bit, but so does the blood, sweat, tears and frustrations of
your current approach.
Plus, you could run two easily, right from the breaker/fuse box and
everything would be a LOT closer to code, besides being so much easier.

Otherwise:
I think I understand why you're doing this, but ... are you aware that
EACH circuit from your fuse/breaker box actually should have its OWN
earth ground? It sounds like you are going to run one earth ground wire
to any/all outlets/switches etc.. They should only connect to each
other back at the breaker/fuse box.
What you're doing will work OK under no-fault conditions, but using
one wire for all circuits creates some special conditions for safety and
some headaches for future people working on the wiring. At a minimum,
IMO, you should put a sticker in your power panel indicating which ckts
share a common earth ground so that future electricians, etc. will be
forewarned of the additional work such ckts might require for repairs.
It's not as dangerous as a common neutral, but it can create problems,
some related to safety, especially in the future when work is done for
repair or maintenance.
Although earth grounds should never carry any current, under fault
conditions they -might- carry substantial current, possibly leading to
heating and overheating. If you're running plain TW this might not be a
good thing. It also seems you might be making some splices, etc., under
that baseboard and technically those have to be done in boxes.
If I were you I'd run the wires in the attic or basement, whichever is
closest, going up and down as required. If you're talking single-story
here, the basement is going to be closest to most outlets, of course,
and likely not more than one firestop. If they're not close enough to
you for normal drill bits, get a long jobber's drill for the task.

But I think I'd consider the surface mount idea if it were me.

Good luck,

Twayne


I'm not enamored of the wiremold option... I think I can do this without
going down that road. This is all on one circuit, and it's the second
floor of a two story house.

On thinking about this more, I think tomorrow I will go up in the attic
and replace the ceiling light box in one of the bedrooms (SWMBO wants a
ceiling fan, and the box isn't installed right to begin with) and see if
I can repull the wire from the first outlet to the ceiling box. If I can
manage that that will solve the actual code violations (wiring done with
grounded cable but not grounded, so there are boxes whose grounds are
interconnected but not connected to earth ground) I was trying to avoid
doing this due to all the insulation up there and lack of attic floor but
it seems like the only way. Then if I still have any ambition left I
will see what I can do about supplemental grounds to the existing receps
that were original to the house. The first box is grounded as it was fed
with BX unlike the rest of the wiring upstairs.

nate


Update - I just dropped all the light fixtures in the areas of concern
(two small bedrooms and a hallway; used to be one large bedroom)

when I replaced the switches I assumed this was old school switch leg
wiring because there's only one cable in each of the switch boxes, save
for the one in the hallway, which has one 3-wire coming in the top and one
2-wire leaving the bottom, I ASSume to feed the recep a couple feet away.

Well, there's only one cable entering each of the three ceiling boxes.
Only way I can think that this could work is if there's multiple concealed
junctions in the attic. (as a bonus all three were apparently installed
by someone who is unable to measure for height appropriately as they are
hanging down below the finished plaster. this was concealed by large
diameter light fixture bases)

Tomorrow will be a fun day. I see (puts hands to head and concentrates) a
lot of rewiring in my near future. Fun stuff!

nate

(@#$%$%^&@# previous "contractors")

More likely the neighborhood "handyman" who worked for beer money....LOL...

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Not@home" wrote in
:



Nate Nagel wrote:
I'm still trying to put all my electrical stuff to rights... part of
that process is providing a few auxiliary grounds upstairs so that
the previous renovation work that was wired with grounded Romex will
in fact be properly grounded. I need to peel back some baseboard to
do this. Unfortunately, one wall is thin wood paneling, not plaster.
I started by trying to pull the baseboard there, as that's where I
need to run the first wire. Apparently the baseboard is held on by
nails that are stronger than your average finishing nail. I cut
through the paint and managed to separate the top of the baseboard
from the wall with a thick putty knife; that's where I'm stuck. The
putty knife is not strong enough to pry it free; I haven't pulled it
away from the wall far enough to try a pry bar, and a screwdriver
mars the paneling. Any ideas? Should I just keep doing what I'm
doing, then cut the nails with a hacksaw blade, or is there a tool
that I ought to have that'd work for this? Am thinking maybe run to
FLAPS and buy a gasket scraper?

In case it matters, this is a three piece baseboard - main baseboard
is a 1x4 with a piece of molding on top and a quarter round at the
floor. I really only want to get the top piece off as I'm just going
to hide a 14 AWG ground wire behind it and nail it back on.

nate

Find a piece of thin strong metal and put it on the paneling to
protect it and spread the pressure over a larger area. (The metal in
a putty knife is about the thickness and strength you want. Then us
whatever you have (the screwdriver will work) to pry the molding out
enough that you can get the claw on a claw hammer under it, and use
that to pull off the molding.

I like to keep the nails in the molding and just use them and the old
holes to reinstall it

My thought is that leads to a loose fit or one that will work loose,
have gaps show up later or crack any caulk that was used between the
molding and wall. I've never tried it because of that but I guess it
works for you.

(use a small piece of hardwood over the molding
and pound that, rather than the molding, to preserve the molding); I'm
frugal, and I don't like making and fixing extra holes, too.

Doing each nail halfway at a time, then redoing them takes a little
longer, but will reduce the risk of breaking the molding. Take care
to see how the corners are done. In most situations each leg is cut
at 45 degrees, but in better construction one piece is cut square and
the other shaped to fit over it;

coped

in that case, you would want to remove the
shaped piece first.

On Dec 26, 3:56*pm, "
wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:
clipped

ideas appreciated, although I'm tempted to continue with my original
approach and just shave the corner off the baseboard molding.

(y'know, it would have saved me a lot of trouble if whoever had split
the one big room into two little ones and a hallway had done the
wiring *right,* but hey, where's the challenge in that?)

nate

It might be an off the wall idea (now I know where that expression
comes from), but the Dremel tile grout remover might work. *Any bit
that works on wood plus the little jig for grout removing. *I haven't
tried it on wood, and the jig has a little tip that fits into the
grout space as a guide....you can push or pull along a line (one is
the approved method for grout and I don't recall which it was, as I
did both). *Should be quick work to run a fine channel in wood; went
pretty quickly in grout.

hmm, my dad got me a Craftsman thing that looks like a Fein Multimaster
clone for xmas, maybe I'll get an excuse to use it right away? *Maybe
channelling plaster might be easier than trying to shave the molding. If
you see my other post, I think I can get away from running around the
baseboard in the one bedroom; the one that I'd still need to do would
involve running it around two walls that are plaster.

nate

If it works on grout, it ought to work on plaster, but haven't seen real
plaster in a long time. You would have it embedded in plaster and then
have to patch plaster. *Hmm... I don't know the size of the wire you
need to run, and I'm not up on big repair jobs .. just the tinkering
level. *When we moved into our condo, my hubby ran the cable for
satellite TV from the satellite in through the patio sliding door, which
always kept the door ajar a little bit. *There was a hole in the outside
concrete block wall and a hole inside same place .. I got a length of
stiff plastic tubing to go through both holes, then ran the TV cable
through the tubing and pulled the tubing out from the inside when the
cable was through.

My hubby is a lot stronger than I so when I want to do something
requiring muscle and he isn't around (preferable when I am truly
inspired about a task), I need to engineer it. *Usually works.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hope you put a drip loop on the outside cable where it enters the
exterior wall. Just dress the wire to below the hole and then back up
and thru the wall and caulk to keep water out.

Nate Nagel wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Twayne wrote:
In ,
Nate Nagel typed:
RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 24, 6:01 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
I'm still trying to put all my electrical stuff to rights... part of
that process is providing a few auxiliary grounds upstairs so that
the previous renovation work that was wired with grounded Romex
will in fact be properly grounded. I need to peel back some
baseboard to do this. Unfortunately, one wall is thin wood
paneling, not plaster. I started by trying to pull the baseboard
there, as that's where I need to run the first wire. Apparently
the baseboard is held on by nails that are stronger than your
average finishing nail. I cut through the paint and managed to
separate the top of the baseboard from the wall with a thick putty
knife; that's where I'm stuck. The putty knife is not strong
enough to pry it free; I haven't pulled it away from the wall far
enough to try a pry bar, and a screwdriver mars the paneling. Any
ideas? Should I just keep doing what I'm doing, then cut the nails
with a hacksaw blade, or is there a tool that I ought to have
that'd work for this? Am thinking maybe run to FLAPS and buy a
gasket scraper? In case it matters, this is a three piece
baseboard - main
baseboard is a 1x4 with a piece of molding on top and a quarter
round at the floor. I really only want to get the top piece off as
I'm just going to hide a 14 AWG ground wire behind it and nail it
back on.

I like the Shark pry bar.
http://www.amazon.com/Shark-21-2225-.../dp/B0000224TY

It's got a wide whale-tail that's thin and gently curved. Does an
excellent job of getting behind trim without damaging it. As others
have noted, use something to protect the wall regardless of what type
of pry bar you use.

R

Wow, all these replies! Well, I went to the Orange Colored Store this
AM and picked up a couple different varieties of prying technology,
what ended up working was something like described above, with a 3"
paint scraper behind it to protect the paneling.

Unfortunately I seem to have come to another "gotcha." I just ASSumed
that the top part of my baseboard molding would have a little dead
space behind it, like a typical inside corner molding

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...INE&lpage=none


however, it does NOT. Now the one piece of molding that I have about
half removed has a corner missing from the one-by that makes up the
main part of the baseboard. but I can't count on this being the case
everywhere that I need to run grounds. If I had a table saw I would
be tempted to rig it up and zing the hidden part of the molding off
at a 45 degree angle to provide the space that I need, but I don't.
Do you think I should just get a small block plane and have at it?
Another approach to running ground wires? I'd originally thought to
drop them down through the walls from the attic by drilling holes in
the sill plates of the walls, but previous experience fishing wires
in this house leads me to expect lots of firestops.

It doesn't help that I have at least three different types of wall
construction that I need to deal with - wood paneling over framing
(interior walls added in previous renovation) plaster over framing
(original walls) and finally plaster over masonry (exterior wall
against chimney)

ideas appreciated, although I'm tempted to continue with my original
approach and just shave the corner off the baseboard molding.

(y'know, it would have saved me a lot of trouble if whoever had split
the one big room into two little ones and a hallway had done the
wiring *right,* but hey, where's the challenge in that?)

nate

Nate, First:
How about considering SURFACE MOUNT wiring products that might, if
conditions were right, allow you to run new, 3-wire wiring to all of
the ungrounded circuits. They don't look bad, are mostly hidden by
furniture, and can go wherever there is a place to mount them. That
would sure be faster and easier than the jerry-rig of pulling all the
baseboards. You can even add outlets along the way as you run the
surface mount wiring. It's simple, easy to use, and made for such
purposes as you seem to have. They come in pre-wired sections you
just connect together, cuttable for different lengths, and usually
made of hard plastic or aluminum so most any saw can cut them. They
have a counterpart for about anything a conduit fitting can do,
including sharp, 90 degree turns since they're molded & prewired.
WATCH THE AMPERAGES CAPABILITIES. It must be equal to or greater than
the outlet, etc. ratings. I don't recall seeing it for more than 20A
services. It costs a bit, but so does the blood, sweat, tears and
frustrations of your current approach.
Plus, you could run two easily, right from the breaker/fuse box and
everything would be a LOT closer to code, besides being so much easier.

Otherwise:
I think I understand why you're doing this, but ... are you aware
that EACH circuit from your fuse/breaker box actually should have its
OWN earth ground? It sounds like you are going to run one earth
ground wire to any/all outlets/switches etc.. They should only
connect to each other back at the breaker/fuse box.
What you're doing will work OK under no-fault conditions, but using
one wire for all circuits creates some special conditions for safety
and some headaches for future people working on the wiring. At a
minimum, IMO, you should put a sticker in your power panel indicating
which ckts share a common earth ground so that future electricians,
etc. will be forewarned of the additional work such ckts might
require for repairs. It's not as dangerous as a common neutral, but
it can create problems, some related to safety, especially in the
future when work is done for repair or maintenance.
Although earth grounds should never carry any current, under fault
conditions they -might- carry substantial current, possibly leading
to heating and overheating. If you're running plain TW this might not
be a good thing. It also seems you might be making some splices,
etc., under that baseboard and technically those have to be done in
boxes.
If I were you I'd run the wires in the attic or basement, whichever
is closest, going up and down as required. If you're talking
single-story here, the basement is going to be closest to most
outlets, of course, and likely not more than one firestop. If they're
not close enough to you for normal drill bits, get a long jobber's
drill for the task.

But I think I'd consider the surface mount idea if it were me.

Good luck,

Twayne


I'm not enamored of the wiremold option... I think I can do this
without going down that road. This is all on one circuit, and it's
the second floor of a two story house.

On thinking about this more, I think tomorrow I will go up in the
attic and replace the ceiling light box in one of the bedrooms (SWMBO
wants a ceiling fan, and the box isn't installed right to begin with)
and see if I can repull the wire from the first outlet to the ceiling
box. If I can manage that that will solve the actual code violations
(wiring done with grounded cable but not grounded, so there are boxes
whose grounds are interconnected but not connected to earth ground) I
was trying to avoid doing this due to all the insulation up there and
lack of attic floor but it seems like the only way. Then if I still
have any ambition left I will see what I can do about supplemental
grounds to the existing receps that were original to the house. The
first box is grounded as it was fed with BX unlike the rest of the
wiring upstairs.

nate


Update - I just dropped all the light fixtures in the areas of concern
(two small bedrooms and a hallway; used to be one large bedroom)

when I replaced the switches I assumed this was old school switch leg
wiring because there's only one cable in each of the switch boxes, save
for the one in the hallway, which has one 3-wire coming in the top and
one 2-wire leaving the bottom, I ASSume to feed the recep a couple feet
away.

Well, there's only one cable entering each of the three ceiling boxes.
Only way I can think that this could work is if there's multiple
concealed junctions in the attic. (as a bonus all three were apparently
installed by someone who is unable to measure for height appropriately
as they are hanging down below the finished plaster. this was concealed
by large diameter light fixture bases)

Tomorrow will be a fun day. I see (puts hands to head and concentrates)
a lot of rewiring in my near future. Fun stuff!

nate

(@#$%$%^&@# previous "contractors")


yup, sho 'nuff. Crawled up into the attic with a flashlight and a
fistful of plant stakes (to mark the location of the ceiling boxes and
switch leg drops. There's a LOT of insulation up there.) Found the
"original" ceiling box hanging loose but at least covered with a cover
plate. My legs were starting to quiver so I'm going to run to the store
and get myself a miner's headlight and a big long extension cord and get
back at it. And the girl was wondering why I bought a full 250 foot
roll of Romex! hah! Now I'm worried that I might run out before I have
this all put to rights.

To make matters worse, the wiring wasn't even bored through the ceiling
joists but laid on top loose. Come on guys, if you're gonna do it, do
it right. I am not totally cool with inadvertantly stepping on 60 year
old cables that are concealed under a mess of insulation.

I have a plan, but I still need to locate the feed to the master bedroom
so I don't kill that while trying to fix the other side of the house.
Good times.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Twayne wrote:
In ,
Nate Nagel typed:
RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 24, 6:01 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
I'm still trying to put all my electrical stuff to rights... part of
that process is providing a few auxiliary grounds upstairs so that
the previous renovation work that was wired with grounded Romex
will in fact be properly grounded. I need to peel back some
baseboard to do this. Unfortunately, one wall is thin wood
paneling, not plaster. I started by trying to pull the baseboard
there, as that's where I need to run the first wire. Apparently
the baseboard is held on by nails that are stronger than your
average finishing nail. I cut through the paint and managed to
separate the top of the baseboard from the wall with a thick putty
knife; that's where I'm stuck. The putty knife is not strong
enough to pry it free; I haven't pulled it away from the wall far
enough to try a pry bar, and a screwdriver mars the paneling. Any
ideas? Should I just keep doing what I'm doing, then cut the nails
with a hacksaw blade, or is there a tool that I ought to have
that'd work for this? Am thinking maybe run to FLAPS and buy a
gasket scraper? In case it matters, this is a three piece
baseboard - main
baseboard is a 1x4 with a piece of molding on top and a quarter
round at the floor. I really only want to get the top piece off as
I'm just going to hide a 14 AWG ground wire behind it and nail it
back on.

I like the Shark pry bar.
http://www.amazon.com/Shark-21-2225-.../dp/B0000224TY
It's got a wide whale-tail that's thin and gently curved. Does an
excellent job of getting behind trim without damaging it. As others
have noted, use something to protect the wall regardless of what type
of pry bar you use.

R

Wow, all these replies! Well, I went to the Orange Colored Store this
AM and picked up a couple different varieties of prying technology,
what ended up working was something like described above, with a 3"
paint scraper behind it to protect the paneling.

Unfortunately I seem to have come to another "gotcha." I just ASSumed
that the top part of my baseboard molding would have a little dead
space behind it, like a typical inside corner molding

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...INE&lpage=none

however, it does NOT. Now the one piece of molding that I have about
half removed has a corner missing from the one-by that makes up the
main part of the baseboard. but I can't count on this being the case
everywhere that I need to run grounds. If I had a table saw I would
be tempted to rig it up and zing the hidden part of the molding off
at a 45 degree angle to provide the space that I need, but I don't. Do
you think I should just get a small block plane and have at it?
Another approach to running ground wires? I'd originally thought to
drop them down through the walls from the attic by drilling holes in
the sill plates of the walls, but previous experience fishing wires
in this house leads me to expect lots of firestops.

It doesn't help that I have at least three different types of wall
construction that I need to deal with - wood paneling over framing
(interior walls added in previous renovation) plaster over framing
(original walls) and finally plaster over masonry (exterior wall
against chimney)

ideas appreciated, although I'm tempted to continue with my original
approach and just shave the corner off the baseboard molding.

(y'know, it would have saved me a lot of trouble if whoever had split
the one big room into two little ones and a hallway had done the
wiring *right,* but hey, where's the challenge in that?)

nate

Nate, First:
How about considering SURFACE MOUNT wiring products that might, if
conditions were right, allow you to run new, 3-wire wiring to all of
the ungrounded circuits. They don't look bad, are mostly hidden by
furniture, and can go wherever there is a place to mount them. That
would sure be faster and easier than the jerry-rig of pulling all the
baseboards. You can even add outlets along the way as you run the
surface mount wiring. It's simple, easy to use, and made for such
purposes as you seem to have. They come in pre-wired sections you just
connect together, cuttable for different lengths, and usually made of
hard plastic or aluminum so most any saw can cut them. They have a
counterpart for about anything a conduit fitting can do, including
sharp, 90 degree turns since they're molded & prewired. WATCH THE
AMPERAGES CAPABILITIES. It must be equal to or greater than the outlet,
etc. ratings. I don't recall seeing it for more than 20A services. It
costs a bit, but so does the blood, sweat, tears and frustrations of
your current approach.
Plus, you could run two easily, right from the breaker/fuse box and
everything would be a LOT closer to code, besides being so much easier.

Otherwise:
I think I understand why you're doing this, but ... are you aware that
EACH circuit from your fuse/breaker box actually should have its OWN
earth ground? It sounds like you are going to run one earth ground wire
to any/all outlets/switches etc.. They should only connect to each
other back at the breaker/fuse box.
What you're doing will work OK under no-fault conditions, but using
one wire for all circuits creates some special conditions for safety
and some headaches for future people working on the wiring. At a
minimum, IMO, you should put a sticker in your power panel indicating
which ckts share a common earth ground so that future electricians,
etc. will be forewarned of the additional work such ckts might require
for repairs. It's not as dangerous as a common neutral, but it can
create problems, some related to safety, especially in the future when
work is done for repair or maintenance.
Although earth grounds should never carry any current, under fault
conditions they -might- carry substantial current, possibly leading to
heating and overheating. If you're running plain TW this might not be a
good thing. It also seems you might be making some splices, etc.,
under that baseboard and technically those have to be done in boxes.
If I were you I'd run the wires in the attic or basement, whichever
is closest, going up and down as required. If you're talking
single-story here, the basement is going to be closest to most outlets,
of course, and likely not more than one firestop. If they're not close
enough to you for normal drill bits, get a long jobber's drill for the
task.

But I think I'd consider the surface mount idea if it were me.

Good luck,

Twayne


I'm not enamored of the wiremold option... I think I can do this
without going down that road. This is all on one circuit, and it's the
second floor of a two story house.

On thinking about this more, I think tomorrow I will go up in the attic
and replace the ceiling light box in one of the bedrooms (SWMBO wants a
ceiling fan, and the box isn't installed right to begin with) and see if
I can repull the wire from the first outlet to the ceiling box. If I
can manage that that will solve the actual code violations (wiring done
with grounded cable but not grounded, so there are boxes whose grounds
are interconnected but not connected to earth ground) I was trying to
avoid doing this due to all the insulation up there and lack of attic
floor but it seems like the only way. Then if I still have any ambition
left I will see what I can do about supplemental grounds to the existing
receps that were original to the house. The first box is grounded as it
was fed with BX unlike the rest of the wiring upstairs.

nate


Update - I just dropped all the light fixtures in the areas of concern
(two small bedrooms and a hallway; used to be one large bedroom)

when I replaced the switches I assumed this was old school switch leg
wiring because there's only one cable in each of the switch boxes, save
for the one in the hallway, which has one 3-wire coming in the top and
one 2-wire leaving the bottom, I ASSume to feed the recep a couple feet
away.

Well, there's only one cable entering each of the three ceiling boxes.
Only way I can think that this could work is if there's multiple
concealed junctions in the attic. (as a bonus all three were apparently
installed by someone who is unable to measure for height appropriately as
they are hanging down below the finished plaster. this was concealed by
large diameter light fixture bases)

Tomorrow will be a fun day. I see (puts hands to head and concentrates)
a lot of rewiring in my near future. Fun stuff!

nate

(@#$%$%^&@# previous "contractors")


yup, sho 'nuff. Crawled up into the attic with a flashlight and a fistful
of plant stakes (to mark the location of the ceiling boxes and switch leg
drops. There's a LOT of insulation up there.) Found the "original"
ceiling box hanging loose but at least covered with a cover plate. My
legs were starting to quiver so I'm going to run to the store and get
myself a miner's headlight and a big long extension cord and get back at
it. And the girl was wondering why I bought a full 250 foot roll of
Romex! hah! Now I'm worried that I might run out before I have this all
put to rights.

To make matters worse, the wiring wasn't even bored through the ceiling
joists but laid on top loose. Come on guys, if you're gonna do it, do it
right. I am not totally cool with inadvertantly stepping on 60 year old
cables that are concealed under a mess of insulation.

I have a plan, but I still need to locate the feed to the master bedroom
so I don't kill that while trying to fix the other side of the house. Good
times.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Unless there is a floor in the attic running them on top is the way it is
done...Bring a small piece of plywood up with you to work on....Makes it
MUCH easier on the legs and feet.....Sounds like you're having fun....BTDT
got the t-shirt....LOL...

"HeyBub" writes:
Right. I've got that tool and it does what it's supposed to do. However, I
bought mine at HF for $4 instead of the $14.00 that Amazon wants (discounted
from $27.00).
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=43651

I have one of those and also a name brand one.
I must say though that the fit-and-finish on the HF one is not as
nice. The steel is rougher, the cat's paw end is not as sharp for
catching nails with small heads, the pry bar end is not as nicely
tapered, etc...

Still worth $4 but not the same tool

Nate Nagel wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Twayne wrote:
In ,
Nate Nagel typed:
RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 24, 6:01 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
I'm still trying to put all my electrical stuff to rights... part of
that process is providing a few auxiliary grounds upstairs so that
the previous renovation work that was wired with grounded Romex
will in fact be properly grounded. I need to peel back some
baseboard to do this. Unfortunately, one wall is thin wood
paneling, not plaster. I started by trying to pull the baseboard
there, as that's where I need to run the first wire. Apparently
the baseboard is held on by nails that are stronger than your
average finishing nail. I cut through the paint and managed to
separate the top of the baseboard from the wall with a thick putty
knife; that's where I'm stuck. The putty knife is not strong
enough to pry it free; I haven't pulled it away from the wall far
enough to try a pry bar, and a screwdriver mars the paneling. Any
ideas? Should I just keep doing what I'm doing, then cut the nails
with a hacksaw blade, or is there a tool that I ought to have
that'd work for this? Am thinking maybe run to FLAPS and buy a
gasket scraper? In case it matters, this is a three piece
baseboard - main
baseboard is a 1x4 with a piece of molding on top and a quarter
round at the floor. I really only want to get the top piece off as
I'm just going to hide a 14 AWG ground wire behind it and nail it
back on.

I like the Shark pry bar.
http://www.amazon.com/Shark-21-2225-.../dp/B0000224TY

It's got a wide whale-tail that's thin and gently curved. Does an
excellent job of getting behind trim without damaging it. As others
have noted, use something to protect the wall regardless of what type
of pry bar you use.

R

Wow, all these replies! Well, I went to the Orange Colored Store this
AM and picked up a couple different varieties of prying technology,
what ended up working was something like described above, with a 3"
paint scraper behind it to protect the paneling.

Unfortunately I seem to have come to another "gotcha." I just ASSumed
that the top part of my baseboard molding would have a little dead
space behind it, like a typical inside corner molding

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...INE&lpage=none


however, it does NOT. Now the one piece of molding that I have about
half removed has a corner missing from the one-by that makes up the
main part of the baseboard. but I can't count on this being the case
everywhere that I need to run grounds. If I had a table saw I would
be tempted to rig it up and zing the hidden part of the molding off
at a 45 degree angle to provide the space that I need, but I don't.
Do you think I should just get a small block plane and have at it?
Another approach to running ground wires? I'd originally thought to
drop them down through the walls from the attic by drilling holes in
the sill plates of the walls, but previous experience fishing wires
in this house leads me to expect lots of firestops.

It doesn't help that I have at least three different types of wall
construction that I need to deal with - wood paneling over framing
(interior walls added in previous renovation) plaster over framing
(original walls) and finally plaster over masonry (exterior wall
against chimney)

ideas appreciated, although I'm tempted to continue with my original
approach and just shave the corner off the baseboard molding.

(y'know, it would have saved me a lot of trouble if whoever had split
the one big room into two little ones and a hallway had done the
wiring *right,* but hey, where's the challenge in that?)

nate

Nate, First:
How about considering SURFACE MOUNT wiring products that might, if
conditions were right, allow you to run new, 3-wire wiring to all of
the ungrounded circuits. They don't look bad, are mostly hidden by
furniture, and can go wherever there is a place to mount them. That
would sure be faster and easier than the jerry-rig of pulling all
the baseboards. You can even add outlets along the way as you run
the surface mount wiring. It's simple, easy to use, and made for
such purposes as you seem to have. They come in pre-wired sections
you just connect together, cuttable for different lengths, and
usually made of hard plastic or aluminum so most any saw can cut
them. They have a counterpart for about anything a conduit fitting
can do, including sharp, 90 degree turns since they're molded &
prewired. WATCH THE AMPERAGES CAPABILITIES. It must be equal to or
greater than the outlet, etc. ratings. I don't recall seeing it for
more than 20A services. It costs a bit, but so does the blood,
sweat, tears and frustrations of your current approach.
Plus, you could run two easily, right from the breaker/fuse box
and everything would be a LOT closer to code, besides being so much
easier.

Otherwise:
I think I understand why you're doing this, but ... are you aware
that EACH circuit from your fuse/breaker box actually should have
its OWN earth ground? It sounds like you are going to run one earth
ground wire to any/all outlets/switches etc.. They should only
connect to each other back at the breaker/fuse box.
What you're doing will work OK under no-fault conditions, but
using one wire for all circuits creates some special conditions for
safety and some headaches for future people working on the wiring.
At a minimum, IMO, you should put a sticker in your power panel
indicating which ckts share a common earth ground so that future
electricians, etc. will be forewarned of the additional work such
ckts might require for repairs. It's not as dangerous as a common
neutral, but it can create problems, some related to safety,
especially in the future when work is done for repair or maintenance.
Although earth grounds should never carry any current, under fault
conditions they -might- carry substantial current, possibly leading
to heating and overheating. If you're running plain TW this might
not be a good thing. It also seems you might be making some
splices, etc., under that baseboard and technically those have to be
done in boxes.
If I were you I'd run the wires in the attic or basement,
whichever is closest, going up and down as required. If you're
talking single-story here, the basement is going to be closest to
most outlets, of course, and likely not more than one firestop. If
they're not close enough to you for normal drill bits, get a long
jobber's drill for the task.

But I think I'd consider the surface mount idea if it were me.

Good luck,

Twayne


I'm not enamored of the wiremold option... I think I can do this
without going down that road. This is all on one circuit, and it's
the second floor of a two story house.

On thinking about this more, I think tomorrow I will go up in the
attic and replace the ceiling light box in one of the bedrooms (SWMBO
wants a ceiling fan, and the box isn't installed right to begin with)
and see if I can repull the wire from the first outlet to the ceiling
box. If I can manage that that will solve the actual code violations
(wiring done with grounded cable but not grounded, so there are boxes
whose grounds are interconnected but not connected to earth ground)
I was trying to avoid doing this due to all the insulation up there
and lack of attic floor but it seems like the only way. Then if I
still have any ambition left I will see what I can do about
supplemental grounds to the existing receps that were original to the
house. The first box is grounded as it was fed with BX unlike the
rest of the wiring upstairs.

nate


Update - I just dropped all the light fixtures in the areas of concern
(two small bedrooms and a hallway; used to be one large bedroom)

when I replaced the switches I assumed this was old school switch leg
wiring because there's only one cable in each of the switch boxes,
save for the one in the hallway, which has one 3-wire coming in the
top and one 2-wire leaving the bottom, I ASSume to feed the recep a
couple feet away.

Well, there's only one cable entering each of the three ceiling boxes.
Only way I can think that this could work is if there's multiple
concealed junctions in the attic. (as a bonus all three were
apparently installed by someone who is unable to measure for height
appropriately as they are hanging down below the finished plaster.
this was concealed by large diameter light fixture bases)

Tomorrow will be a fun day. I see (puts hands to head and
concentrates) a lot of rewiring in my near future. Fun stuff!

nate

(@#$%$%^&@# previous "contractors")


yup, sho 'nuff. Crawled up into the attic with a flashlight and a
fistful of plant stakes (to mark the location of the ceiling boxes and
switch leg drops. There's a LOT of insulation up there.) Found the
"original" ceiling box hanging loose but at least covered with a cover
plate. My legs were starting to quiver so I'm going to run to the store
and get myself a miner's headlight and a big long extension cord and get
back at it. And the girl was wondering why I bought a full 250 foot
roll of Romex! hah! Now I'm worried that I might run out before I have
this all put to rights.

To make matters worse, the wiring wasn't even bored through the ceiling
joists but laid on top loose. Come on guys, if you're gonna do it, do
it right. I am not totally cool with inadvertantly stepping on 60 year
old cables that are concealed under a mess of insulation.

I have a plan, but I still need to locate the feed to the master bedroom
so I don't kill that while trying to fix the other side of the house.
Good times.

nate

Hoo boy... today I started off by hanging a string of construction
lights in my attic (at some point I'd like a keyed lampholder up there
permanently wired, but I can't exactly do that yet) and putting
everything "mission critical" on the 2nd floor on extension cords to an
unused A/C recep. I replaced three ceiling boxes, two of 'em with fan
rated boxes (two small bedrooms) and one I just moved up higher and
added an extension ring (small hallway.) Pulled a new 14/2 romex up
into the attic from the recep that is fed by the breaker box (homerun is
BX so I didn't replace that. That would have been a whole 'nother
project.) Got lucky, just yanked on the old wire and it came up, so I
just tied the new to the old and pulled it through. Got three ceiling
boxes all wired with new romex and drilled through joists rather than
laying it on top. Found TWO concealed junction boxes and cut 'em out.
Heh, did ya see me post asking about box fill calcs? The guy there
before me didn't think of that apparently, I think each of two 1-1/2"
octagon boxes just laying loose had five cables coming into each, all
spliced together inside. Yeah, this *needed* to be done. Had to repull
one switch leg because it was too short to make it to the ceiling box.
Wire nutted everything through and tried it. I got everything right but
I lost a cable somewhere, MBR and bath are still dead. Circuit is
protected by both an AFCI breaker and GFCI at first recep, neither
tripped, so that is a good sign. Had to run out and get an old work box
for the switch I had to repull, I just couldn't fish it through the
knockout so I busted the box out of the wall. Killed the circuit
because obviously I missed something (wouldn't *that* be a fun
conversation with the insurance people?) looks like house was originally
wired hot to all the ceiling boxes, then switch leg and a drop to each
room's receps so I will start tracing cable at the MBR ceiling box tomorrow.

Holy heck I feel like I was working today. This is my VACATION????

If I feel froggy I will repull the other two switch legs and also the
drops to the receps in the two little bedrooms (to get rid of the old
cloth covered **** and provide a proper ground there as well.) First
priority is figuring out where I messed up though so I can cut the power
back on with confidence, and have lights that work...

*whew*

it is nice to see all that nice new grounded Romex and 90C wire in the
ceiling boxes though... and getting rid of those junctions just flopping
around under the insulation is also a Good Thing... oh yeah and the
boxes are now flush with the ceiling like they should be...

Did I mention that that my attic floor has two layers of fiberglass
covered by another big ol' mess of cellulose insulation? had to shove
all that mess to the side every time I found a box or traced a cable.
Just finding where everything goes is a project in and of itself!

gonna pour me a shot of bourbon and just relax for a bit methinks.

I *hope* if I ever sell this place that someone appreciates all this
crap. I remember my grandpa (RIP) telling me to get a good education so
I could get a good job and wouldn't have to kill my body doing manual
labor. You know what, grandpa? You were right, but the sad thing is, I
do know people that I would trust to do this work right (matter of fact
one of 'em called me today because he didn't realize I was on vacation,)
and I still can't afford 'em.

I always had respect for the electricians that specialized in retrofits
(there are a couple that I use for subcontract work professionally) but
if anything I just got a little more.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

snip


yup, sho 'nuff. Crawled up into the attic with a flashlight and a
fistful of plant stakes (to mark the location of the ceiling boxes and
switch leg drops. There's a LOT of insulation up there.) Found the
"original" ceiling box hanging loose but at least covered with a cover
plate. My legs were starting to quiver so I'm going to run to the
store and get myself a miner's headlight and a big long extension cord
and get back at it. And the girl was wondering why I bought a full
250 foot roll of Romex! hah! Now I'm worried that I might run out
before I have this all put to rights.

To make matters worse, the wiring wasn't even bored through the
ceiling joists but laid on top loose. Come on guys, if you're gonna
do it, do it right. I am not totally cool with inadvertantly stepping
on 60 year old cables that are concealed under a mess of insulation.

I have a plan, but I still need to locate the feed to the master
bedroom so I don't kill that while trying to fix the other side of the
house. Good times.

nate

Hoo boy... today I started off by hanging a string of construction
lights in my attic (at some point I'd like a keyed lampholder up there
permanently wired, but I can't exactly do that yet) and putting
everything "mission critical" on the 2nd floor on extension cords to an
unused A/C recep. I replaced three ceiling boxes, two of 'em with fan
rated boxes (two small bedrooms) and one I just moved up higher and
added an extension ring (small hallway.) Pulled a new 14/2 romex up
into the attic from the recep that is fed by the breaker box (homerun is
BX so I didn't replace that. That would have been a whole 'nother
project.) Got lucky, just yanked on the old wire and it came up, so I
just tied the new to the old and pulled it through. Got three ceiling
boxes all wired with new romex and drilled through joists rather than
laying it on top. Found TWO concealed junction boxes and cut 'em out.
Heh, did ya see me post asking about box fill calcs? The guy there
before me didn't think of that apparently, I think each of two 1-1/2"
octagon boxes just laying loose had five cables coming into each, all
spliced together inside. Yeah, this *needed* to be done. Had to repull
one switch leg because it was too short to make it to the ceiling box.
Wire nutted everything through and tried it. I got everything right but
I lost a cable somewhere, MBR and bath are still dead. Circuit is
protected by both an AFCI breaker and GFCI at first recep, neither
tripped, so that is a good sign. Had to run out and get an old work box
for the switch I had to repull, I just couldn't fish it through the
knockout so I busted the box out of the wall. Killed the circuit
because obviously I missed something (wouldn't *that* be a fun
conversation with the insurance people?) looks like house was originally
wired hot to all the ceiling boxes, then switch leg and a drop to each
room's receps so I will start tracing cable at the MBR ceiling box
tomorrow.

Holy heck I feel like I was working today. This is my VACATION????

If I feel froggy I will repull the other two switch legs and also the
drops to the receps in the two little bedrooms (to get rid of the old
cloth covered **** and provide a proper ground there as well.) First
priority is figuring out where I messed up though so I can cut the power
back on with confidence, and have lights that work...

*whew*

it is nice to see all that nice new grounded Romex and 90C wire in the
ceiling boxes though... and getting rid of those junctions just flopping
around under the insulation is also a Good Thing... oh yeah and the
boxes are now flush with the ceiling like they should be...

Did I mention that that my attic floor has two layers of fiberglass
covered by another big ol' mess of cellulose insulation? had to shove
all that mess to the side every time I found a box or traced a cable.
Just finding where everything goes is a project in and of itself!

gonna pour me a shot of bourbon and just relax for a bit methinks.

I *hope* if I ever sell this place that someone appreciates all this
crap. I remember my grandpa (RIP) telling me to get a good education so
I could get a good job and wouldn't have to kill my body doing manual
labor. You know what, grandpa? You were right, but the sad thing is, I
do know people that I would trust to do this work right (matter of fact
one of 'em called me today because he didn't realize I was on vacation,)
and I still can't afford 'em.

I always had respect for the electricians that specialized in retrofits
(there are a couple that I use for subcontract work professionally) but
if anything I just got a little more.

nate

Just in case anyone is still following this saga...

Got back at it this AM, found that ceiling box in MBR is NOT fed
directly from one of the ceiling boxes. It is fed by a recep in the
bedroom, which is fed by a recep in the hallway on the other side of the
stairs (cable apparently runs above ceiling of stairs, below sloping
"floor" of closet.) Which is fed by a 14/3 switch leg... which I
*didn't* hook up last night. So that's why my stuff was dead. I didn't
miss anything, I just didn't remember there being two cables in that
receptacle box in the hallway (I ASSumed that that was the only thing
being fed by the 14/3 switch leg.) I didn't hook it up because I
figured that was something that I could do after all the heavy lifting
was done and I was neatening stuff up and rehanging the light fixtures etc.

So all is good. I just repulled the drop to the "new" receps from the
renovation 30 years or so ago and am taking a break before crawling back
up there to run the wire over to the ceiling box and hook it up. Life
is good! (although now that I'm learning more about how this house is
wired, breaking the bathroom off onto its own circuit is going to be,
um, challenging. I need to do that because there's no recep in there
nor is there an exhaust fan, which I've purchased but have yet to
install...)

I know, y'all are just so relieved that I figured it out, aren't you?

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:

Just in case anyone is still following this saga...

Got back at it this AM, found that ceiling box in MBR is NOT fed directly
from one of the ceiling boxes. It is fed by a recep in the bedroom, which
is fed by a recep in the hallway on the other side of the stairs (cable
apparently runs above ceiling of stairs, below sloping "floor" of closet.)
Which is fed by a 14/3 switch leg... which I *didn't* hook up last night.
So that's why my stuff was dead. I didn't miss anything, I just didn't
remember there being two cables in that receptacle box in the hallway (I
ASSumed that that was the only thing being fed by the 14/3 switch leg.) I
didn't hook it up because I figured that was something that I could do
after all the heavy lifting was done and I was neatening stuff up and
rehanging the light fixtures etc.

So all is good. I just repulled the drop to the "new" receps from the
renovation 30 years or so ago and am taking a break before crawling back
up there to run the wire over to the ceiling box and hook it up. Life is
good! (although now that I'm learning more about how this house is wired,
breaking the bathroom off onto its own circuit is going to be, um,
challenging. I need to do that because there's no recep in there nor is
there an exhaust fan, which I've purchased but have yet to install...)

I know, y'all are just so relieved that I figured it out, aren't you?

I'm still following the saga, and I am glad that you figured it out :-).

It's always nice to see other people going through the same struggles and
pleasures that I do when I take on these types of projects. And, I like it
when the OP of a thread actually does follow up as you did -- either by
responding to the replies and/or writing what the final outcome was. I hate
it when people post a question and are never heard from again despite
receiving a lot of replies to their question (which is the opposite of what
you did).

Jay-T wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:

Just in case anyone is still following this saga...

Got back at it this AM, found that ceiling box in MBR is NOT fed
directly from one of the ceiling boxes. It is fed by a recep in the
bedroom, which is fed by a recep in the hallway on the other side of
the stairs (cable apparently runs above ceiling of stairs, below
sloping "floor" of closet.) Which is fed by a 14/3 switch leg...
which I *didn't* hook up last night. So that's why my stuff was dead.
I didn't miss anything, I just didn't remember there being two cables
in that receptacle box in the hallway (I ASSumed that that was the
only thing being fed by the 14/3 switch leg.) I didn't hook it up
because I figured that was something that I could do after all the
heavy lifting was done and I was neatening stuff up and rehanging the
light fixtures etc.

So all is good. I just repulled the drop to the "new" receps from the
renovation 30 years or so ago and am taking a break before crawling
back up there to run the wire over to the ceiling box and hook it up.
Life is good! (although now that I'm learning more about how this
house is wired, breaking the bathroom off onto its own circuit is
going to be, um, challenging. I need to do that because there's no
recep in there nor is there an exhaust fan, which I've purchased but
have yet to install...)

I know, y'all are just so relieved that I figured it out, aren't you?

I'm still following the saga, and I am glad that you figured it out :-).

It's always nice to see other people going through the same struggles
and pleasures that I do when I take on these types of projects. And, I
like it when the OP of a thread actually does follow up as you did --
either by responding to the replies and/or writing what the final
outcome was. I hate it when people post a question and are never heard
from again despite receiving a lot of replies to their question (which
is the opposite of what you did).

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it

The downside is, I am sorely tempted to keep on rolling and keep
rewiring more of the upstairs, and I think I am trying SWMBO's
patience... but even though everything works now and there's not any
code violations left that I'm aware of, I would like to provide grounds
at all the receps so I can get rid of the GFCI, and also get rid of the
original (to the house) wiring that's left in two ceiling boxes, because
of the higher insulation temperature rating of NM-B... although I
believe I've stated before, I am amazed at how well the original wiring
in this house has held up, I used to live in a house that was built
within a year or two of this one and every time I opened a box I'd have
to bring some heat shrink and a lighter with me because the insulation
would just crumble as soon as I flexed the wires. In this house the
insulation is still nice and supple... weird. Not that I'm complaining,
mind you.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it

The downside is, I am sorely tempted to keep on rolling and keep
rewiring more of the upstairs, and I think I am trying SWMBO's
patience... but even though everything works now and there's not any
code violations left that I'm aware of, I would like to provide
grounds at all the receps so I can get rid of the GFCI, and also get
rid of the original (to the house) wiring that's left in two ceiling
boxes, because of the higher insulation temperature rating of NM-B...
although I believe I've stated before, I am amazed at how well the
original wiring in this house has held up, I used to live in a house
that was built within a year or two of this one and every time I
opened a box I'd have to bring some heat shrink and a lighter with me
because the insulation would just crumble as soon as I flexed the
wires. In this house the insulation is still nice and supple...
weird. Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

nate

I'm the same way when it comes to electrical wiring -- once I get started, I
want to get rid of all of the old stuff completely. I'm just finishing
doing that in one property and I recently finished doing that in another.
One had all knob and tube wiring and the other had whatever the next
generation of wiring was after that (the 2-wire, no ground stuff). Both are
rental properties so I especially wanted them to have all new wiring. Of
course, I haven't done the house where I live yet, which still has mostly
all knob and tube wiring.

By the way, what is the "heat shrink and a lighter" trick? I never heard of
that, but I have run into old brittle wiring once in a while that I would
like to at least be able to do a temporary fix on.

Jay-T wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it

The downside is, I am sorely tempted to keep on rolling and keep
rewiring more of the upstairs, and I think I am trying SWMBO's
patience... but even though everything works now and there's not any
code violations left that I'm aware of, I would like to provide
grounds at all the receps so I can get rid of the GFCI, and also get
rid of the original (to the house) wiring that's left in two ceiling
boxes, because of the higher insulation temperature rating of NM-B...
although I believe I've stated before, I am amazed at how well the
original wiring in this house has held up, I used to live in a house
that was built within a year or two of this one and every time I
opened a box I'd have to bring some heat shrink and a lighter with me
because the insulation would just crumble as soon as I flexed the
wires. In this house the insulation is still nice and supple...
weird. Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

nate

I'm the same way when it comes to electrical wiring -- once I get started, I
want to get rid of all of the old stuff completely. I'm just finishing
doing that in one property and I recently finished doing that in another.
One had all knob and tube wiring and the other had whatever the next
generation of wiring was after that (the 2-wire, no ground stuff). Both are
rental properties so I especially wanted them to have all new wiring. Of
course, I haven't done the house where I live yet, which still has mostly
all knob and tube wiring.

By the way, what is the "heat shrink and a lighter" trick? I never heard of
that, but I have run into old brittle wiring once in a while that I would
like to at least be able to do a temporary fix on.

Used to be there was a place around here called "Chesapeake Marine
Fasteners" (RIP) that specialized in hardware for boats etc. (go
figure!) They had an excellent selection of Grade 8 and stainless
bolts, screws, nuts, washers, etc. - I spent a lot of money there
because my real hobby is messing around with old cars. Anyway, they'd
also sell 4' lengths of heat shrink in at least red and black. I always
bought my heat shrink there because the little carded packs you get at
the auto parts stores weren't long enough lengths. What I'd do is if I
had to replace a switch or something and the wiring's insulation fell
apart, I'd just cut a piece of heat shrink long enough to cover each
wire all the way back to the cable clamp and shrink it right over top of
the old insulation. For white wires I'd use the black and then tape
over it with a ring of white tape. I have no idea if this is actually
code compliant, but it is WAY neater than trying to tape wires that are
physically inside a box - I can never seem to do it neatly.

I did this a lot in one house that I lived in... the current place is
the first one that I've actually owned, but several places I;ve lived it
seems that I was far more handy than the landlord, so I preferred to do
small repairs myself rather than watch someone either do a complete hack
job and/or spend lots of money to pay someone else to do it.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote in
:

Jay-T wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:

Just in case anyone is still following this saga...

Got back at it this AM, found that ceiling box in MBR is NOT fed
directly from one of the ceiling boxes. It is fed by a recep in the
bedroom, which is fed by a recep in the hallway on the other side of
the stairs (cable apparently runs above ceiling of stairs, below
sloping "floor" of closet.) Which is fed by a 14/3 switch leg...
which I *didn't* hook up last night. So that's why my stuff was
dead. I didn't miss anything, I just didn't remember there being
two cables in that receptacle box in the hallway (I ASSumed that
that was the only thing being fed by the 14/3 switch leg.) I didn't
hook it up because I figured that was something that I could do
after all the heavy lifting was done and I was neatening stuff up
and rehanging the light fixtures etc.

So all is good. I just repulled the drop to the "new" receps from
the renovation 30 years or so ago and am taking a break before
crawling back up there to run the wire over to the ceiling box and
hook it up. Life is good! (although now that I'm learning more
about how this house is wired, breaking the bathroom off onto its
own circuit is going to be, um, challenging. I need to do that
because there's no recep in there nor is there an exhaust fan, which
I've purchased but have yet to install...)

I know, y'all are just so relieved that I figured it out, aren't
you?

I'm still following the saga, and I am glad that you figured it out
:-).

It's always nice to see other people going through the same struggles
and pleasures that I do when I take on these types of projects. And,
I like it when the OP of a thread actually does follow up as you did
-- either by responding to the replies and/or writing what the final
outcome was. I hate it when people post a question and are never
heard from again despite receiving a lot of replies to their question
(which is the opposite of what you did).

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it

The downside is, I am sorely tempted to keep on rolling and keep
rewiring more of the upstairs, and I think I am trying SWMBO's
patience... but even though everything works now and there's not any
code violations left that I'm aware of, I would like to provide
grounds at all the receps so I can get rid of the GFCI, and also get
rid of the original (to the house) wiring that's left in two ceiling
boxes, because of the higher insulation temperature rating of NM-B...
although I believe I've stated before, I am amazed at how well the
original wiring in this house has held up, I used to live in a house
that was built within a year or two of this one and every time I
opened a box I'd have to bring some heat shrink and a lighter with me
because the insulation would just crumble as soon as I flexed the
wires. In this house the insulation is still nice and supple...
weird. Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

nate


Rumor has it Jo Ann wants to send you a bus ticket :-)

Red Green wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote in
:

Jay-T wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:

Just in case anyone is still following this saga...

Got back at it this AM, found that ceiling box in MBR is NOT fed
directly from one of the ceiling boxes. It is fed by a recep in the
bedroom, which is fed by a recep in the hallway on the other side of
the stairs (cable apparently runs above ceiling of stairs, below
sloping "floor" of closet.) Which is fed by a 14/3 switch leg...
which I *didn't* hook up last night. So that's why my stuff was
dead. I didn't miss anything, I just didn't remember there being
two cables in that receptacle box in the hallway (I ASSumed that
that was the only thing being fed by the 14/3 switch leg.) I didn't
hook it up because I figured that was something that I could do
after all the heavy lifting was done and I was neatening stuff up
and rehanging the light fixtures etc.

So all is good. I just repulled the drop to the "new" receps from
the renovation 30 years or so ago and am taking a break before
crawling back up there to run the wire over to the ceiling box and
hook it up. Life is good! (although now that I'm learning more
about how this house is wired, breaking the bathroom off onto its
own circuit is going to be, um, challenging. I need to do that
because there's no recep in there nor is there an exhaust fan, which
I've purchased but have yet to install...)

I know, y'all are just so relieved that I figured it out, aren't
you?
I'm still following the saga, and I am glad that you figured it out
:-).

It's always nice to see other people going through the same struggles
and pleasures that I do when I take on these types of projects. And,
I like it when the OP of a thread actually does follow up as you did
-- either by responding to the replies and/or writing what the final
outcome was. I hate it when people post a question and are never
heard from again despite receiving a lot of replies to their question
(which is the opposite of what you did).
Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it

The downside is, I am sorely tempted to keep on rolling and keep
rewiring more of the upstairs, and I think I am trying SWMBO's
patience... but even though everything works now and there's not any
code violations left that I'm aware of, I would like to provide
grounds at all the receps so I can get rid of the GFCI, and also get
rid of the original (to the house) wiring that's left in two ceiling
boxes, because of the higher insulation temperature rating of NM-B...
although I believe I've stated before, I am amazed at how well the
original wiring in this house has held up, I used to live in a house
that was built within a year or two of this one and every time I
opened a box I'd have to bring some heat shrink and a lighter with me
because the insulation would just crumble as soon as I flexed the
wires. In this house the insulation is still nice and supple...
weird. Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

nate


Rumor has it Jo Ann wants to send you a bus ticket :-)

Hey, if she can work a fish tape, we can just do both our places! (my
problem is, it's hard to fish a wire through a wall by yourself...)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

replying to Jim Elbrecht, DIYDon wrote:
Been renovating a 100 year old house and salvaging for re-use as much
baseboard and casing as possible. Absolute best tool to use once the nail
head is up 1/16 inch is an end-nipper. Generous rounded face and huge leverage
as you roll the tool and the take a new grip and do it again. Photo link
below is a small one, but a 7 inch handle works for brads up through 16D
common nails. I tried a lot of things before discovering this.
https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Nipper.../dp/B00524WTO4


--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ge-414584-.htm