When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)

HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)



I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little windshield
wipers.

TDD

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:14:28 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)



I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras.

Yes, that would work. Wouldn't need much heat at all, either, I suspect.

Problem might be designing something and getting it all properly safety
tested before it can be used out in the wild; I expect LED lights have
been in the pipeline for a few years and for some reason some idiot never
thought of the cold-weather issues.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt
snow. The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot
enough to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem
blamed for dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)

Mebbe hire the assholes on alt.hvac? I'm pretty sure, tho not 100% certain,
they could be trained in time.

The LED arrays on the back of NYC buses get *plenty* hot, so hot I was
wondering just how much energy they were really saving.
Are some LEDs cooler/more efficient than others?
--
EA

The Daring Dufas wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)



I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little windshield
wipers.

TDD

I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and use that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient brightness when the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there actually was snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing cost, so sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing sticking snow.

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)


I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little windshield
wipers.

TDD

I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and use that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient brightness when the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there actually was snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing cost, so sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing sticking snow.

Using the same material as used in the manufacture of self regulating
heat tape, an inexpensive add on heater that worked automatically could
be produced.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)


I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little windshield
wipers.

TDD

I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and use that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient brightness when the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there actually was snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing cost, so sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing sticking snow.

Using the same material as used in the manufacture of self regulating
heat tape, an inexpensive add on heater that worked automatically could
be produced.

TDD

No point in heating all the time, or even just when it's cold. Much
better to heat only when it's cold and something (snow) is obscuring the
light. The minimal cost of the extra control components will be far
outweighed by the lifetime power savings of only having the heater
active during sticking snow events.

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)


I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little windshield
wipers.

TDD
I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and use that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient brightness when the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there actually was snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing cost, so sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing sticking snow.
Using the same material as used in the manufacture of self regulating
heat tape, an inexpensive add on heater that worked automatically could
be produced.

TDD

No point in heating all the time, or even just when it's cold. Much
better to heat only when it's cold and something (snow) is obscuring the
light. The minimal cost of the extra control components will be far
outweighed by the lifetime power savings of only having the heater
active during sticking snow events.

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)


I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little windshield
wipers.

TDD
I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and use that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient brightness when the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there actually was snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing cost, so sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing sticking snow.
Using the same material as used in the manufacture of self regulating
heat tape, an inexpensive add on heater that worked automatically could
be produced.

TDD

No point in heating all the time, or even just when it's cold. Much
better to heat only when it's cold and something (snow) is obscuring the
light. The minimal cost of the extra control components will be far
outweighed by the lifetime power savings of only having the heater
active during sticking snow events.

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

TDD

Yes, but that's an entirely different problem, and one that would
afflict both LED and incandescent signals.

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)


I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little windshield
wipers.

TDD
I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and use that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient brightness when the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there actually was snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing cost, so sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing sticking snow.
Using the same material as used in the manufacture of self regulating
heat tape, an inexpensive add on heater that worked automatically could
be produced.

TDD
No point in heating all the time, or even just when it's cold. Much
better to heat only when it's cold and something (snow) is obscuring the
light. The minimal cost of the extra control components will be far
outweighed by the lifetime power savings of only having the heater
active during sticking snow events.
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

TDD

Yes, but that's an entirely different problem, and one that would
afflict both LED and incandescent signals.

If it's a Hippie bird, it would build its nest in a flashing light
because it's psychedelic. *snicker*

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.


But the heat would serve to incubate the eggs, leaving momma free to flirt
with the flight. The chicks would then end up as unsupervised avians leading
to the spread of "feather delinquency."

What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers" proposal?

The LED bulb people should make "Cold climate" bulbs. Which
have a small heater filament in parallel with the LED.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Pete C." wrote in message
ter.com...


I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an
optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and
use that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient
brightness when the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there
actually was snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing
cost, so sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals
themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing
sticking snow.

Built into the LED module, even.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote
in message ...

Using the same material as used in the manufacture of self
regulating
heat tape, an inexpensive add on heater that worked
automatically could
be produced.

TDD

Temperature snap disk, no problem.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Pete C." wrote in message
ter.com...

No point in heating all the time, or even just when it's
cold. Much
better to heat only when it's cold and something (snow) is
obscuring the
light. The minimal cost of the extra control components will
be far
outweighed by the lifetime power savings of only having the
heater
active during sticking snow events.

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get
warm enough to melt snow.
[Christmas presents]

Even the birds are stoners, now?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote
in message ...

Yes, but that's an entirely different problem, and one
that would
afflict both LED and incandescent signals.

If it's a Hippie bird, it would build its nest in a flashing
light
because it's psychedelic. *snicker*

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough
to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient
traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't
burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem
blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights


Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the
signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals
clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the
training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)


I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little
windshield
wipers.

TDD
I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and use
that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient brightness when
the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there actually was
snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing cost, so sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals
themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing sticking snow.
Using the same material as used in the manufacture of self regulating
heat tape, an inexpensive add on heater that worked automatically
could
be produced.

TDD
No point in heating all the time, or even just when it's cold. Much
better to heat only when it's cold and something (snow) is obscuring
the
light. The minimal cost of the extra control components will be far
outweighed by the lifetime power savings of only having the heater
active during sticking snow events.
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

TDD

Yes, but that's an entirely different problem, and one that would
afflict both LED and incandescent signals.

If it's a Hippie bird, it would build its nest in a flashing light
because it's psychedelic. *snicker*

I think a Hippie bird would choose the red lights with the flashing
white strobe light in it. Cool man. That's cool.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:40:55 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.


But the heat would serve to incubate the eggs, leaving momma free to flirt
with the flight. The chicks would then end up as unsupervised avians leading
to the spread of "feather delinquency."

What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers" proposal?


Not enough "midgets" to fill the job demand?

Tony wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough
to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient
traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't
burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem
blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights


Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the
signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic
signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but
the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)


I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras. Another
way would be a simple snap on clear plastic cover that would
prevent
snow from getting into the hooded area. Oh yea, teeny little
windshield
wipers.

TDD
I would expect it wouldn't be that difficult to install an optical
sensor at the end of the hood looking back at the light and use
that to
switch on a heater if it did not detect sufficient brightness
when the
signal light was on. No extra energy use unless there actually
was snow
obscuring the signal. Probably around $20 manufacturing cost, so
sell
for $200, a fairly insignificant cost given what the signals
themselves
cost. Also only needed in climates that have blowing sticking snow.
Using the same material as used in the manufacture of self regulating
heat tape, an inexpensive add on heater that worked automatically
could
be produced.

TDD
No point in heating all the time, or even just when it's cold. Much
better to heat only when it's cold and something (snow) is
obscuring the
light. The minimal cost of the extra control components will be far
outweighed by the lifetime power savings of only having the heater
active during sticking snow events.
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

TDD

Yes, but that's an entirely different problem, and one that would
afflict both LED and incandescent signals.

If it's a Hippie bird, it would build its nest in a flashing light
because it's psychedelic. *snicker*

I think a Hippie bird would choose the red lights with the flashing
white strobe light in it. Cool man. That's cool.

Nah man, it's GROOVY.

TDD

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:40:55 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

But the heat would serve to incubate the eggs, leaving momma free to flirt
with the flight. The chicks would then end up as unsupervised avians leading
to the spread of "feather delinquency."

What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers" proposal?


Not enough "midgets" to fill the job demand?

You would have to find the cast of "Under the Rainbow" and
put them to work.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:40:55 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

But the heat would serve to incubate the eggs, leaving momma free to
flirt with the flight. The chicks would then end up as unsupervised
avians leading to the spread of "feather delinquency."

What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers" proposal?

Not enough "midgets" to fill the job demand?

You would have to find the cast of "Under the Rainbow" and
put them to work.

TDD
sounds like a good project for obama to create jobs and put folks back
to work. would it work better with tall people instead of short people
on ladders? Maybe a Cash For Blinkers program.

--

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:48:20 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:40:55 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

But the heat would serve to incubate the eggs, leaving momma free to
flirt with the flight. The chicks would then end up as unsupervised
avians leading to the spread of "feather delinquency."

What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers" proposal?

Not enough "midgets" to fill the job demand?

You would have to find the cast of "Under the Rainbow" and
put them to work.

TDD
sounds like a good project for obama to create jobs and put folks back
to work. would it work better with tall people instead of short people
on ladders? Maybe a Cash For Blinkers program.

Don't be silly, the "Cash for Caulkers" program is for tall people.

"Obama at Home Depot Declares Home Improvements Sexy"

"“Insulation is sexy stuff. Saving money is sexy stuff,” the
Washington Times quoted the President as saying. "

http://www.huliq.com/9204/89692/obam...rovements-sexy

In , HeyBub said:

When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)

This hit sci.engr.lighting today also, but the discussion was less silly
there.

For one thing, there was even mention of statistics for number of
crashes and body count to be attributable to snow-obscured LED traffic
signals, and that was in combination with drivers being incompetent at
driving through intersections controlled by snow-disabled LED traffic
signals.

It appears to me so far from what was posted in S.E.L. that the crash
count tallied so far is around 40 and the body count tallied so far is 1
nationwide through USA throughout its entire history so far with LED
traffic signals. Most that I see were in existence for at least a few
years already.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:41:40 -0600, Jules
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:14:28 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt snow.
The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot enough
to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem blamed for
dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)



I can see a couple of ways to prevent the problem and one is to use
the type of heater that is used in outdoor CCTV cameras.

Yes, that would work. Wouldn't need much heat at all, either, I suspect.

Problem might be designing something and getting it all properly safety
tested before it can be used out in the wild; I expect LED lights have
been in the pipeline for a few years and for some reason some idiot never
thought of the cold-weather issues.


There are an awful lot of places where it simply isn't an issue.

As it turns out, I have yet to see even one LED traffic signal
effectively obscured by snow or any other form of water in Philadelphia
and that city's suburbs. It does snow there, with only one of the past
135 winters there officially having only a trace of snowfall, an average
one having about 21-22 inches of snow, and the worst one of the past 135
(1995-1996) having 66-67 or so inches of snow, including over 30 inches in
a record-breaking storm. And by-and-large, northwestern parts of the city
that I grew up in and most of the city's northern and western suburbs that
most of my family has lived in since 1991 and that I know well usually
get substantially more due to higher elevation.

And quite the share at least of the snow there is the wet sticky kind
blamed for obscuring LED traffic signals. And most of it falls with wind
in the range of "moderate breeze", "fresh breeze" or "strong breeze".

- Don Klipstein )

In article , The Daring Dufas wrote:
Pete C. wrote:

SNIP material otherwise getting more than 2 quotation symbols per line

No point in heating all the time, or even just when it's cold. Much
better to heat only when it's cold and something (snow) is obscuring the
light. The minimal cost of the extra control components will be far
outweighed by the lifetime power savings of only having the heater
active during sticking snow events.

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

Although I don't doubt that birds have built nests in traffic signals, I
have yet to see this even once so far atage in late 40's and living and
working entirely in urban and inner-ring-suburb locations. And I have
roughly 50,000 miles experience driving cars almost entirely in such
areas, along with a goodly 300,000 miles driving bicycles on streets in
such areas, and walking on streets in such areas likely having lifetime
mileage for me to be an additional 30,000 miles.

Perchance Philadelphia's birds are not as birdbrained as their
politicians and Philadelphians electing/re-electing them to office are?

- Don Klipstein )

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:48:20 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:40:55 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

But the heat would serve to incubate the eggs, leaving momma free to
flirt with the flight. The chicks would then end up as unsupervised
avians leading to the spread of "feather delinquency."

What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers" proposal?
Not enough "midgets" to fill the job demand?
You would have to find the cast of "Under the Rainbow" and
put them to work.

TDD
sounds like a good project for obama to create jobs and put folks back
to work. would it work better with tall people instead of short people
on ladders? Maybe a Cash For Blinkers program.

Don't be silly, the "Cash for Caulkers" program is for tall people.

"Obama at Home Depot Declares Home Improvements Sexy"

"“Insulation is sexy stuff. Saving money is sexy stuff,” the
Washington Times quoted the President as saying. "

http://www.huliq.com/9204/89692/obam...rovements-sexy


Oh no! Are we going to see cute young girls dancing around proclaiming
"I'm an insulation girl!" Well, it gets the attention of the guys.

TDD

In article , Stormin Mormon wrote:

The LED bulb people should make "Cold climate" bulbs. Which
have a small heater filament in parallel with the LED.

SNIP what that responded to in order to edit-for-space

Should that one be the one to be the cream that rises to the top, I
propose that it be an incandescent lightbulb designed to last 100,000
or 200,000 hours, or for that matter a 230V lightbulb with life expectancy
at 120V of a couple million hours, even around a million at 130V.

A 100W 230V 1000-hour (or is it 1500?) Europe-typical big-brand (Philips
or Osram) incandescent typically achieves IIRC around 1300 lumens at 230V.

At 120V, that one produces around 100 or mid-upper-90's lumens, and
consumes 37 maybe 38 watts. I would take 2.5 lumens/watt (before losses
from colored lenses) over zero when power consumption has to incur a large
uptick and there is need for more light.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Existential Angst wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
om...
When used in traffic signals, the lights don't get warm enough to melt
snow. The snow obscures the signal and people die.

"Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic
lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don't burn hot
enough to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm - a problem
blamed for dozens of accidents and at least one death."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/...red_stoplights

Some cities are considering hiring midgets to sit atop the signals with
hair-dryers and long extension cords to keep the traffic signals clear.
(Some species of monkeys could be trained to do the job, but the training
time would take too long to be effective this season.)

Mebbe hire the assholes on alt.hvac? I'm pretty sure, tho not 100% certain,
they could be trained in time.

The LED arrays on the back of NYC buses get *plenty* hot, so hot I was
wondering just how much energy they were really saving.
Are some LEDs cooler/more efficient than others?

That part of diversity of efficiency of LEDs is true.

However, this touches onto another point: Even stellarly-efficient
LEDs are mostly more efficient at producing non-radiant heat than
incandescents are. This is often by a factor of around 2.

LEDs intended to produce visible light produce little radiation
elsewhere, same for CFLs. Incandescents tend to be fairly efficient at
producing infrared wavelengths in the wavelength range of 700-2800 nm,
which mostly goes where the light goes. Such infrared escaping the bulb
unabsorbed by the bulb does not heat the bulb, and such infrared escaping
the fixture does not heat the fixture, same as visible light getting as
far as exiting the fixture. But such radiation escaping the fixture is
usually mostly absorbed in the same room that the light fixture is in, or
in rooms accessible through bigwide archways. The radiation still
generally heats the room and the building even from much of the radiation
that escapes the fixture. This explains the "paradox" of LEDs and CFLs
being more efficient both at heating fixtures and producing light.

For a specic data point of measurement - I did an experiment with a
specific fixture, with comparative temperature measurements repeated for
60 watt incandescentand 42 watt CFL. By a small margin, the 42 watt CFL
heated the fixture slightly more than the 60 watt incandescent. CFLs also
don't take heat nearly as well as incandescents do.

In terms of heat tolerance for both aging and efficiency of producing
light, LEDs and "LED lightbulbs" appear to me to have heat tolerance
somewhat better than CFL but well short of incandescent.

- Don Klipstein )

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 05:25:17 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

Although I don't doubt that birds have built nests in traffic signals, I
have yet to see this even once so far atage in late 40's and living and
working entirely in urban and inner-ring-suburb locations. And I have
roughly 50,000 miles experience driving cars almost entirely in such
areas, along with a goodly 300,000 miles driving bicycles on streets in
such areas, and walking on streets in such areas likely having lifetime
mileage for me to be an additional 30,000 miles.

Perchance Philadelphia's birds are not as birdbrained as their
politicians and Philadelphians electing/re-electing them to office are?

I can't speak for Philly, but in Black, AL there has only been one
signal light (period). Years ago (70/80s) "The boys" shot the lamps
out of the blinker light (red/amber). Martins (birdies) made a nest in
the signal. Eventually, a new highway was built around Black, Al and
the signal was still the only one ever placed at the only intersection
- if you visit Black, AL.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:40:01 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:48:20 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:40:55 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.

But the heat would serve to incubate the eggs, leaving momma free to
flirt with the flight. The chicks would then end up as unsupervised
avians leading to the spread of "feather delinquency."

What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers" proposal?
Not enough "midgets" to fill the job demand?
You would have to find the cast of "Under the Rainbow" and
put them to work.

TDD
sounds like a good project for obama to create jobs and put folks back
to work. would it work better with tall people instead of short people
on ladders? Maybe a Cash For Blinkers program.

Don't be silly, the "Cash for Caulkers" program is for tall people.

"Obama at Home Depot Declares Home Improvements Sexy"

"“Insulation is sexy stuff. Saving money is sexy stuff,” the
Washington Times quoted the President as saying. "

http://www.huliq.com/9204/89692/obam...rovements-sexy


Oh no! Are we going to see cute young girls dancing around proclaiming
"I'm an insulation girl!" Well, it gets the attention of the guys.

TDD

I wish the local Vegas girls would proclaim the "Cash for Caulkers"
program. I can hear it now, "I like caulk!" Them girls can dance.

Oren wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 05:25:17 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.
Although I don't doubt that birds have built nests in traffic signals, I
have yet to see this even once so far atage in late 40's and living and
working entirely in urban and inner-ring-suburb locations. And I have
roughly 50,000 miles experience driving cars almost entirely in such
areas, along with a goodly 300,000 miles driving bicycles on streets in
such areas, and walking on streets in such areas likely having lifetime
mileage for me to be an additional 30,000 miles.

Perchance Philadelphia's birds are not as birdbrained as their
politicians and Philadelphians electing/re-electing them to office are?

I can't speak for Philly, but in Black, AL there has only been one
signal light (period). Years ago (70/80s) "The boys" shot the lamps
out of the blinker light (red/amber). Martins (birdies) made a nest in
the signal. Eventually, a new highway was built around Black, Al and
the signal was still the only one ever placed at the only intersection
- if you visit Black, AL.

I think Walnut Grove, AL may have had two blinking lights. Funny
thing about Black, AL, there are few Black folks residing there.

TDD

Oren wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 05:25:17 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.
Although I don't doubt that birds have built nests in traffic signals, I
have yet to see this even once so far atage in late 40's and living and
working entirely in urban and inner-ring-suburb locations. And I have
roughly 50,000 miles experience driving cars almost entirely in such
areas, along with a goodly 300,000 miles driving bicycles on streets in
such areas, and walking on streets in such areas likely having lifetime
mileage for me to be an additional 30,000 miles.

Perchance Philadelphia's birds are not as birdbrained as their
politicians and Philadelphians electing/re-electing them to office are?

I can't speak for Philly, but in Black, AL there has only been one
signal light (period). Years ago (70/80s) "The boys" shot the lamps
out of the blinker light (red/amber). Martins (birdies) made a nest in
the signal. Eventually, a new highway was built around Black, Al and
the signal was still the only one ever placed at the only intersection
- if you visit Black, AL.

Oh my God! This is funny, I tripped over this link:

http://tinyurl.com/y9qdoct

TDD

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 01:07:03 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 05:25:17 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.
Although I don't doubt that birds have built nests in traffic signals, I
have yet to see this even once so far atage in late 40's and living and
working entirely in urban and inner-ring-suburb locations. And I have
roughly 50,000 miles experience driving cars almost entirely in such
areas, along with a goodly 300,000 miles driving bicycles on streets in
such areas, and walking on streets in such areas likely having lifetime
mileage for me to be an additional 30,000 miles.

Perchance Philadelphia's birds are not as birdbrained as their
politicians and Philadelphians electing/re-electing them to office are?

I can't speak for Philly, but in Black, AL there has only been one
signal light (period). Years ago (70/80s) "The boys" shot the lamps
out of the blinker light (red/amber). Martins (birdies) made a nest in
the signal. Eventually, a new highway was built around Black, Al and
the signal was still the only one ever placed at the only intersection
- if you visit Black, AL.

Oh my God! This is funny, I tripped over this link:

http://tinyurl.com/y9qdoct

TDD

"Two Words -- Sounds Like "Black Alabama"

Ain't that some ****!

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:52:52 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 05:25:17 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a heater
every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn on heat.
Although I don't doubt that birds have built nests in traffic signals, I
have yet to see this even once so far atage in late 40's and living and
working entirely in urban and inner-ring-suburb locations. And I have
roughly 50,000 miles experience driving cars almost entirely in such
areas, along with a goodly 300,000 miles driving bicycles on streets in
such areas, and walking on streets in such areas likely having lifetime
mileage for me to be an additional 30,000 miles.

Perchance Philadelphia's birds are not as birdbrained as their
politicians and Philadelphians electing/re-electing them to office are?

I can't speak for Philly, but in Black, AL there has only been one
signal light (period). Years ago (70/80s) "The boys" shot the lamps
out of the blinker light (red/amber). Martins (birdies) made a nest in
the signal. Eventually, a new highway was built around Black, Al and
the signal was still the only one ever placed at the only intersection
- if you visit Black, AL.

I think Walnut Grove, AL may have had two blinking lights. Funny
thing about Black, AL, there are few Black folks residing there.

TDD

If I had the money, I'd buy the whole intersection..pending a cousin
approval...

Make peanut brittle and listen to the girls sing in church.

All midgets outsourced to India, and China.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Oren"
wrote in message
...


What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers"
proposal?


Not enough "midgets" to fill the job demand?

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:40:55 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Birds have actually built nests in the lights so turning on a
heater every time a bird lights in the light (pun) you would turn
on heat.
But the heat would serve to incubate the eggs, leaving momma free
to flirt with the flight. The chicks would then end up as
unsupervised avians leading to the spread of "feather delinquency."

What the heck's wrong with the "midgets with hair-dryers" proposal?


Not enough "midgets" to fill the job demand?

You would have to find the cast of "Under the Rainbow" and
put them to work.


Look, if the federal government can settle a "little people" lawsuit over
discrimination in public housing by building an entire apartment house in
Chicago and letting about a thousand midgets, dwarfs, leprechauns, elves,
and pygmies live there at no cost, they ought to be able to recruit enough
workers for a few crucial intersections.

I've seen the apartment house. It's called the "Chicago Stay Free
Mini-Pads."

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Stormin Mormon wrote:

The LED bulb people should make "Cold climate" bulbs. Which
have a small heater filament in parallel with the LED.

SNIP what that responded to in order to edit-for-space

Should that one be the one to be the cream that rises to the top, I
propose that it be an incandescent lightbulb designed to last 100,000
or 200,000 hours, or for that matter a 230V lightbulb with life expectancy
at 120V of a couple million hours, even around a million at 130V.

I believe some of Thomas Edison's light bulbs are still working. They
are on DC and I'm sure the voltage is low. I don't think they ever turn
them off or if they do it's slowly decreasing the voltage and the
opposite for on.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
The LED bulb people should make "Cold climate" bulbs. Which
have a small heater filament in parallel with the LED.


And we all complained about the heaters to keep refrigerators from
getting condensation.

(Not aimed at anyone, just at the whole thread.)

On Dec 17, 10:51*am, Tony wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
The LED bulb people should make "Cold climate" bulbs. Which
have a small heater filament in parallel with the LED.

And we all complained about the heaters to keep refrigerators from
getting condensation.

(Not aimed at anyone, just at the whole thread.)

Seems to me that if you come to an intersection with a light and the
snow is obscuring a smart person would want to stop. So maybe this is
just another darwin example.

I'd forgotten about that. You're totally correct.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tony" wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
The LED bulb people should make "Cold climate" bulbs.
Which
have a small heater filament in parallel with the LED.


And we all complained about the heaters to keep
refrigerators from
getting condensation.

(Not aimed at anyone, just at the whole thread.)