A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.

"dgk" wrote in message
...
A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.



*Remove the cover and change the ballast or just change the entire fixture.
Rapid start and preheat bulbs are not interchangeable because they have
different pins on the ends and require different sockets for each.

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 08:43:46 -0500, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


"dgk" wrote in message
.. .
A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.



*Remove the cover and change the ballast or just change the entire fixture.
Rapid start and preheat bulbs are not interchangeable because they have
different pins on the ends and require different sockets for each.

Thanks.

dgk wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 08:43:46 -0500, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

"dgk" wrote in message
...
A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.


*Remove the cover and change the ballast or just change the entire fixture.
Rapid start and preheat bulbs are not interchangeable because they have
different pins on the ends and require different sockets for each.

Thanks.

I'd look for a starter. If not, a new electronic ballast energy saver
fixture at WalMart for about $11 or $12. Although the bulbs may be
cheaper somewhere else.

To diagnose florescent fixtures I used to remove the starter and insert
needle nose pliers to see if the bulb would light and stay lit. If it
stays lit, just replace the starter. Not saying this is how you should
test anything, just that it worked for me for 30 years.

There were many fixtures made that used a "start button" instead of a
starter (or instead of needle nose pliers) ;-). I have a old desk lamp
next to me that uses a red push button in place of a starter. (And a
black push button to turn it off.)

dgk wrote:
A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.

Hi,
B\New ballast will cost ~10.00, just replace the whole fixture it it's
that old.

"Tony" wrote in message ...
To diagnose florescent fixtures I used to remove the starter and insert needle nose pliers to see
if the bulb would light and stay lit.

I do hope those were *insulated* needlenose pliers!

Eric Law

dgk wrote:
A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.

It could be cold in your basement; cold temperatures cause unstable
performance in fluorescent fixtures.

It could be corrosion on the wires; they are often just connected with "push
in" holders, and corrosion can cause problems.

If it is an electronic "ballast", usually it is the capacitors that go bad.

If it is an iron ballast, the starter (on modern units) is integral to the
ballast.

Jon

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:33:43 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

dgk wrote:
A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.

It could be cold in your basement; cold temperatures cause unstable
performance in fluorescent fixtures.

It could be corrosion on the wires; they are often just connected with "push
in" holders, and corrosion can cause problems.

If it is an electronic "ballast", usually it is the capacitors that go bad.

If it is an iron ballast, the starter (on modern units) is integral to the
ballast.

Jon


I read that about cold temperatures but it just isn't that cold. I'm
sure it isn't below 65.

Ok, having read a number of messages, the thing to do is unscrew that
strip and see what's behind it. I recall starters are those
cylindrical silver things so I doubt it has one, but until I look
behind I just won't know. If it has a starter, I stick an insulated
needle nose pliers in, after checking to make sure my insurance is
paid up.

Then, if the starter isn't the problem, I replace the ballast, or
maybe the whole fixture. I think Tony suggested the fixture, and it's
likely what I'll do. Ballasts at Home Despot are $15 - 30, most likely
the $15 one. Single fixture 48" is $19.

Now I have to pull a fair amount of crap out of that room so I can get
at the fixture, and get some decent lights in there so I can see what
I'm doing.

Thanks all. If you hear a big bang, that was me.

On Nov 13, 1:01*pm, dgk wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:33:43 -0800, "Jon Danniken"





wrote:
dgk wrote:
A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...escent/trouble....

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.

It could be cold in your basement; cold temperatures cause unstable
performance in fluorescent fixtures.

It could be corrosion on the wires; they are often just connected with "push
in" holders, and corrosion can cause problems.

If it is an electronic "ballast", usually it is the capacitors that go bad.

If it is an iron ballast, the starter (on modern units) is integral to the
ballast.

Jon

I read that about cold temperatures but it just isn't that cold. I'm
sure it isn't below 65.

Ok, having read a number of messages, the thing to do is unscrew that
strip and see what's behind it. I recall starters are those
cylindrical silver things so I doubt it has one, but until I look
behind *I just won't know. If it has a starter, I stick an insulated
needle nose pliers in, after checking to make sure my insurance is
paid up.

Then, if the starter isn't the problem, I replace the ballast, or
maybe the whole fixture. I think Tony suggested the fixture, and it's
likely what I'll do. Ballasts at Home Despot are $15 - 30, most likely
the $15 one. Single fixture 48" is $19.

Now I have to pull a fair amount of crap out of that room so I can get
at the fixture, and get some decent lights in there so I can see what
I'm doing.

Thanks all. If you hear a big bang, that was me.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If it has a starter it will be accessible without taking the cover off.

dgk wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:33:43 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:


dgk wrote:

A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

According to this site, the problem might be trying to use a
rapid-start lamp in a pre-heat fixtu

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html

Because the fixture is in an infrequently used small storage room
(formerly a sewing room) I bought the cheapest tube they had - but I
don't see anything on it about rapid-start.

I guess I can try a more expensive bulb, and if that doesn't work,
unscrew the metal cover and see if I can find a ballast. It could also
be the wallswitch, but that seems the least likely culpret to me.

Any advice appreciated.

It could be cold in your basement; cold temperatures cause unstable
performance in fluorescent fixtures.

It could be corrosion on the wires; they are often just connected with "push
in" holders, and corrosion can cause problems.

If it is an electronic "ballast", usually it is the capacitors that go bad.

If it is an iron ballast, the starter (on modern units) is integral to the
ballast.

Jon



I read that about cold temperatures but it just isn't that cold. I'm
sure it isn't below 65.

Ok, having read a number of messages, the thing to do is unscrew that
strip and see what's behind it. I recall starters are those
cylindrical silver things so I doubt it has one, but until I look
behind I just won't know. If it has a starter, I stick an insulated
needle nose pliers in, after checking to make sure my insurance is
paid up.

Then, if the starter isn't the problem, I replace the ballast, or
maybe the whole fixture. I think Tony suggested the fixture, and it's
likely what I'll do. Ballasts at Home Despot are $15 - 30, most likely
the $15 one. Single fixture 48" is $19.


But those $19 fixtures are usually pure crap and fail rather quickly. If
the present fixture and its sockets are in good shape I'd go for
replacing just the ballast.

Jeff


-
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

when I decided I wanted a short light under my kitchen
cabinet. It was $15 at home De Pot or $5 at Wall Fart. So, I
took the cheap one. Since I can't see under, I markered on
the side where the switch is, for off and on.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dgk" wrote in message
...

I read that about cold temperatures but it just isn't that
cold. I'm
sure it isn't below 65.

Ok, having read a number of messages, the thing to do is
unscrew that
strip and see what's behind it. I recall starters are those
cylindrical silver things so I doubt it has one, but until I
look
behind I just won't know. If it has a starter, I stick an
insulated
needle nose pliers in, after checking to make sure my
insurance is
paid up.

Then, if the starter isn't the problem, I replace the
ballast, or
maybe the whole fixture. I think Tony suggested the fixture,
and it's
likely what I'll do. Ballasts at Home Despot are $15 - 30,
most likely
the $15 one. Single fixture 48" is $19.

Now I have to pull a fair amount of crap out of that room so
I can get
at the fixture, and get some decent lights in there so I can
see what
I'm doing.

Thanks all. If you hear a big bang, that was me.

jeff_wisnia wrote:
dgk wrote:

Then, if the starter isn't the problem, I replace the ballast, or
maybe the whole fixture. I think Tony suggested the fixture, and it's
likely what I'll do. Ballasts at Home Despot are $15 - 30, most likely
the $15 one. Single fixture 48" is $19.


But those $19 fixtures are usually pure crap and fail rather quickly. If
the present fixture and its sockets are in good shape I'd go for
replacing just the ballast.

I bought and installed 12 2 bulb fixtures in my garage/shop. Bought
them at WalMart for under $13 each. They are Lights of America brand, I
know when that company was new they had some pretty bad stuff, but it
seems a lot better now. All electronic ballasts, no hum what so ever,
and in the summer heat I left them on for 2 1/2 days to give them a
"burn in" test. No failures. Oh, I went to L*wes and bought a case of
the energy saver bulbs that are made to go in that fixture. They light
fairly well in the cold also and don't take long to get to full
brightness as they warm up. They aren't made like old ones but none
fell apart, and I've even accidentally given a couple a good wack with a
2x4.

In article , John Grabowski wrote:

SNIP previously quoted material

*Remove the cover and change the ballast or just change the entire fixture.
Rapid start and preheat bulbs are not interchangeable because they have
different pins on the ends and require different sockets for each.

That is NOT TRUE. There are even F40T12 bulbs rated to be compatible
with both. Nowadays, F40T12 bulbs are generally compatible with rapid
start ballasts, since nearly all F40T12 ballasts have been rapid start for
a decade or two.

I have seen maybe 3 different ends of 4-foot fluorescents, and all that
were different from the usual 2-pin ones were fairly specioalized instant
start lamps requiring according ballasts.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , dgk wrote:

A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

This sounds like a starter, which in a few fixtures can only be replaced
if the fixture is opened. Starters are usually but not always accessible
if the fixture is only disassembled enough to remove the bulb.

Replaceable starters are cylindrical "cans" about 3/4 inch in diameter
and about 1.5 inches tall. Twist counterclockwise about 1/4 turn (maybe
somewhat less) and then pull to remove. For a 4-footer, the replacement
starter is an FS-4.

- Don Klipstein )

In communications,
jeff_wisnia wrote:

SNIP previously quoted material

But those $19 fixtures are usually pure crap and fail rather quickly. If
the present fixture and its sockets are in good shape I'd go for
replacing just the ballast.

I see some cheap fixtures last a while, especially if suspended on those
chains that come with some of them to allow the cheap ballasts to cool
better.

However, I have seen shortened bulb life, reduced light output and
reduced energy efficiency with those cheap fixtures.

- Don Klipstein )

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:40:26 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , dgk wrote:

A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

This sounds like a starter, which in a few fixtures can only be replaced
if the fixture is opened. Starters are usually but not always accessible
if the fixture is only disassembled enough to remove the bulb.

Replaceable starters are cylindrical "cans" about 3/4 inch in diameter
and about 1.5 inches tall. Twist counterclockwise about 1/4 turn (maybe
somewhat less) and then pull to remove. For a 4-footer, the replacement
starter is an FS-4.

- Don Klipstein )


No, this turned out to be a ballast. I returned the bulbs I bought to
Home Despot and spoke to the resident electrical person who confirmed
what was written here, that it would be easier and better to just
replace the fixture. So I did. The only snag was that the old fixture
was held up by the two screws that go into the electrical box and the
new one didn't have holes in that place.

Since I can't really hang it on a drop ceiling, and the new fixture
is half the weight of the old one, I just drilled a few holes so the
new fixture hangs on the box and it stays up.

The house wires are so old that I can't tell which is white and which
is black. So I went by the wires that went into the old ballast. The
wire that went to the white ballast wires was assumed to be the white
one.

I wired it in, turned it on, and it worked fine. Then I tried again
and only one bulb goes on. Odd. I jiggled the bulbs a bit, still only
one goes on. If the wires were reversed would that make a difference?

I switched the bulbs and the one that works still works and the other
doesn't. So it seems like something is wrong with one of the bulbs.
Not that I care since even the one bulb is too much light for that
little room.

Looks like a reasonably successful fixture transplant. Thanks to
everyone for their help.

In article , dgk wrote:

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:40:26 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , dgk wrote:

A fixture in my basement has a single 48" florescent tube which
recently started flickering and now fails to start - it just flickers.
I replaced it and have the same behavior. The fixture is at least 15
years old and might be much older.

I don't see anything that looks like a starter. I've searched around
and see that the ballast may be the problem, but I don't see what
looks like a ballast. It may very well be under a metal cover that
runs most of the way under the bulb. Well, above the bulb actually.

This sounds like a starter, which in a few fixtures can only be replaced
if the fixture is opened. Starters are usually but not always accessible
if the fixture is only disassembled enough to remove the bulb.

Replaceable starters are cylindrical "cans" about 3/4 inch in diameter
and about 1.5 inches tall. Twist counterclockwise about 1/4 turn (maybe
somewhat less) and then pull to remove. For a 4-footer, the replacement
starter is an FS-4.

No, this turned out to be a ballast. I returned the bulbs I bought to
Home Despot and spoke to the resident electrical person who confirmed
what was written here, that it would be easier and better to just
replace the fixture. So I did. The only snag was that the old fixture
was held up by the two screws that go into the electrical box and the
new one didn't have holes in that place.

Since I can't really hang it on a drop ceiling, and the new fixture
is half the weight of the old one, I just drilled a few holes so the
new fixture hangs on the box and it stays up.

The house wires are so old that I can't tell which is white and which
is black. So I went by the wires that went into the old ballast. The
wire that went to the white ballast wires was assumed to be the white
one.

I wired it in, turned it on, and it worked fine. Then I tried again
and only one bulb goes on. Odd. I jiggled the bulbs a bit, still only
one goes on. If the wires were reversed would that make a difference?

I switched the bulbs and the one that works still works and the other
doesn't. So it seems like something is wrong with one of the bulbs.
Not that I care since even the one bulb is too much light for that
little room.

Looks like a reasonably successful fixture transplant. Thanks to
everyone for their help.

Congratulations on getting this fixed.

And it looks like maybe the second time in my life so far that my first
guess for a fluorescent fixture problem turned out to be wrong. If I saw
how it was blinking or seen a video, I would probably have recognized what
was going on.

Meanwhile, as for why after first use only one bulb lights? You did say
you like it that way, but this did catch my attention.

You did say that switching bulbs around indicates that one of the bulbs
themselves is now refusing to work. Since the bulb is supposedly new, my
first guess is that the bulb got broken somehow or was defective.

My second guess is that the bulbs have some differences between them in
electrical characteristics and you have a cheaped-out-design 2-bulb
electronic ballast that cannot handle above-average difference between the
two bulbs (production tolerances, etc.).

(Are the bulbs new, or did you put old bulbs in the new fixture? Are
the bulbs even ones that the fixture is rated to accept? There are a few
different 4-footers that have the same pins.)

My third guess is that reversing the power wires will make a difference,
by affecting electric field distribution within bulbs that are trying to
start (or that the fixture is not grounded, which also unfavorably affects
electric field distribution within a bulb that is trying to start).

My 4th guess is that the cranky bulb has a coating of dirt or grime
that, if humidity gets high enough, gets conductive enough to screw up
electric field distribution within a bulb that is trying to start. Since
the bulb is supposed to be new, and humidity in November in a house in
..com-land is not that likely to be high, I consider this to be very
unlikely. This problem is more of one in coastal areas where salt gets
into the air.

- Don Klipstein )

*Remove the cover and change the ballast or just change the entire
fixture.
Rapid start and preheat bulbs are not interchangeable because they have
different pins on the ends and require different sockets for each.

That is NOT TRUE. There are even F40T12 bulbs rated to be compatible
with both. Nowadays, F40T12 bulbs are generally compatible with rapid
start ballasts, since nearly all F40T12 ballasts have been rapid start for
a decade or two.

I have seen maybe 3 different ends of 4-foot fluorescents, and all that
were different from the usual 2-pin ones were fairly specioalized instant
start lamps requiring according ballasts.



*You are correct. After I posted that I realized that I was thinking about
instant start ballasts which are wired through the lamps and the pins are
different.

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:13:17 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , dgk wrote:

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:40:26 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:


The house wires are so old that I can't tell which is white and which
is black. So I went by the wires that went into the old ballast. The
wire that went to the white ballast wires was assumed to be the white
one.

I wired it in, turned it on, and it worked fine. Then I tried again
and only one bulb goes on. Odd. I jiggled the bulbs a bit, still only
one goes on. If the wires were reversed would that make a difference?

I switched the bulbs and the one that works still works and the other
doesn't. So it seems like something is wrong with one of the bulbs.
Not that I care since even the one bulb is too much light for that
little room.

Looks like a reasonably successful fixture transplant. Thanks to
everyone for their help.

Congratulations on getting this fixed.

And it looks like maybe the second time in my life so far that my first
guess for a fluorescent fixture problem turned out to be wrong. If I saw
how it was blinking or seen a video, I would probably have recognized what
was going on.

Meanwhile, as for why after first use only one bulb lights? You did say
you like it that way, but this did catch my attention.

You did say that switching bulbs around indicates that one of the bulbs
themselves is now refusing to work. Since the bulb is supposedly new, my
first guess is that the bulb got broken somehow or was defective.

My second guess is that the bulbs have some differences between them in
electrical characteristics and you have a cheaped-out-design 2-bulb
electronic ballast that cannot handle above-average difference between the
two bulbs (production tolerances, etc.).

(Are the bulbs new, or did you put old bulbs in the new fixture? Are
the bulbs even ones that the fixture is rated to accept? There are a few
different 4-footers that have the same pins.)

My third guess is that reversing the power wires will make a difference,
by affecting electric field distribution within bulbs that are trying to
start (or that the fixture is not grounded, which also unfavorably affects
electric field distribution within a bulb that is trying to start).

My 4th guess is that the cranky bulb has a coating of dirt or grime
that, if humidity gets high enough, gets conductive enough to screw up
electric field distribution within a bulb that is trying to start. Since
the bulb is supposed to be new, and humidity in November in a house in
.com-land is not that likely to be high, I consider this to be very
unlikely. This problem is more of one in coastal areas where salt gets
into the air.

- Don Klipstein )

Odd that you mention grounding as a possibility. There is a screw on
the frame that is supposed to go to a ground wire, but there is no
ground wire in the electrical box so I figured that the screws that
now hold the fixture to the box would be sufficient ground. Maybe not?

They're new bulbs - and a much narrower diameter than the old ones.

One more odd thing, though not so odd in my house. The wall switch
that operates the light works backwards. On is down. And I can't
recall whether that worked that way before. It very well might have
and there are two other switches in the house that work that way. I
never bothered fixing them. I use this light so infrequently that I
just don't recall.

I wondered if that indicates that the wiring in the fixture is
backwards, but that doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, the switch
is just open/close right? Even if the wires were reversed it doesn't
seem that it would make the switch work the inverse way.

Don Klipstein wrote:

My third guess is that reversing the power wires will make a difference,
by affecting electric field distribution within bulbs that are trying to
start (or that the fixture is not grounded, which also unfavorably affects
electric field distribution within a bulb that is trying to start).

That reminded me of an old florescent bulb and starter tester an old
employer had. It was probably out of an old hardware store. Set the
switches for the wattage bulb, put one end of the bulb in the unit, a
cord and plug went to the other (top) end. Hold a switch closed for a
second then release. (mimicking a starter) If it lights it's good, if
not, it's bad. If it's good then turn a switch to "starter", install
the starter and hit a switch to see if the bulb lights.

Anyway what reminded me of it was a suggestion to install the starter
reversed polarity and test it again to see if it works that way. I had
seen the same suggestion in an old (early 50's) jukebox manual. I think
I may have had a few work that way, but they were dead again by the next
day, so I always replaced the bulb and starter. The cost of the bulb,
even if not needed, saved a lot more money than the cost of a call back
service call.

It sounds to me as if you bought T8 bulbs to go in an old fixture
made for T 12 bulbs. The bulbs will fit, the ballast cannot drive
T8's. If you installed new fixtures, this is not the problem
assuming you have T8 ballasts for T8 bulbs.

If they are the old fixtures, the ballast(s) can be shot or the
tombstones (the things that hold the bulbs) can be shot or have a
loose wire connection.

The newest bulbs are T5's, same problems.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"dgk" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:13:17 +0000 (UTC),
(Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , dgk
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:40:26 +0000 (UTC),
(Don
Klipstein) wrote:


The house wires are so old that I can't tell which is white and
which
is black. So I went by the wires that went into the old
ballast. The
wire that went to the white ballast wires was assumed to be the
white
one.

I wired it in, turned it on, and it worked fine. Then I tried
again
and only one bulb goes on. Odd. I jiggled the bulbs a bit,
still only
one goes on. If the wires were reversed would that make a
difference?

I switched the bulbs and the one that works still works and the
other
doesn't. So it seems like something is wrong with one of the
bulbs.
Not that I care since even the one bulb is too much light for
that
little room.

Looks like a reasonably successful fixture transplant. Thanks
to
everyone for their help.

Congratulations on getting this fixed.

And it looks like maybe the second time in my life so far that
my first
guess for a fluorescent fixture problem turned out to be wrong.
If I saw
how it was blinking or seen a video, I would probably have
recognized what
was going on.

Meanwhile, as for why after first use only one bulb lights?
You did say
you like it that way, but this did catch my attention.

You did say that switching bulbs around indicates that one of
the bulbs
themselves is now refusing to work. Since the bulb is
supposedly new, my
first guess is that the bulb got broken somehow or was
defective.

My second guess is that the bulbs have some differences
between them in
electrical characteristics and you have a cheaped-out-design
2-bulb
electronic ballast that cannot handle above-average difference
between the
two bulbs (production tolerances, etc.).

(Are the bulbs new, or did you put old bulbs in the new
fixture? Are
the bulbs even ones that the fixture is rated to accept? There
are a few
different 4-footers that have the same pins.)

My third guess is that reversing the power wires will make a
difference,
by affecting electric field distribution within bulbs that are
trying to
start (or that the fixture is not grounded, which also
unfavorably affects
electric field distribution within a bulb that is trying to
start).

My 4th guess is that the cranky bulb has a coating of dirt or
grime
that, if humidity gets high enough, gets conductive enough to
screw up
electric field distribution within a bulb that is trying to
start. Since
the bulb is supposed to be new, and humidity in November in a
house in
.com-land is not that likely to be high, I consider this to be
very
unlikely. This problem is more of one in coastal areas where
salt gets
into the air.

- Don Klipstein )

Odd that you mention grounding as a possibility. There is a
screw on
the frame that is supposed to go to a ground wire, but there is
no
ground wire in the electrical box so I figured that the screws
that
now hold the fixture to the box would be sufficient ground.
Maybe not?

They're new bulbs - and a much narrower diameter than the old
ones.

One more odd thing, though not so odd in my house. The wall
switch
that operates the light works backwards. On is down. And I can't
recall whether that worked that way before. It very well might
have
and there are two other switches in the house that work that
way. I
never bothered fixing them. I use this light so infrequently
that I
just don't recall.

I wondered if that indicates that the wiring in the fixture is
backwards, but that doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, the
switch
is just open/close right? Even if the wires were reversed it
doesn't
seem that it would make the switch work the inverse way.

On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:42:28 -0600, "DanG" wrote:

It sounds to me as if you bought T8 bulbs to go in an old fixture
made for T 12 bulbs. The bulbs will fit, the ballast cannot drive
T8's. If you installed new fixtures, this is not the problem
assuming you have T8 ballasts for T8 bulbs.

While you're discussing the difference- What *is* the difference
between the T8 & T12 bulbs?

I just bought a dozen ballasts of ebay for the T8s and fixed the pile
of dead $10 shoplights in the corner of the garage. [worked out to
about $6 a ballast] I bought a case of T8s for them.

I just ran across a 1/2 box of T12s- will they work ok in the new T8
lights?

Thanks
Jim

Nope, nope, nope. The ballasts have to be compatible with the
bulbs. If you got T8 ballasts for that kind of money, they must
have been hot or the person had absolutely no idea of their cost.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:42:28 -0600, "DanG"
wrote:

It sounds to me as if you bought T8 bulbs to go in an old
fixture
made for T 12 bulbs. The bulbs will fit, the ballast cannot
drive
T8's. If you installed new fixtures, this is not the problem
assuming you have T8 ballasts for T8 bulbs.

While you're discussing the difference- What *is* the difference
between the T8 & T12 bulbs?

I just bought a dozen ballasts of ebay for the T8s and fixed the
pile
of dead $10 shoplights in the corner of the garage. [worked out
to
about $6 a ballast] I bought a case of T8s for them.

I just ran across a 1/2 box of T12s- will they work ok in the
new T8
lights?

Thanks
Jim

In article , Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:42:28 -0600, "DanG" wrote:

It sounds to me as if you bought T8 bulbs to go in an old fixture
made for T 12 bulbs. The bulbs will fit, the ballast cannot drive
T8's. If you installed new fixtures, this is not the problem
assuming you have T8 ballasts for T8 bulbs.

While you're discussing the difference- What *is* the difference
between the T8 & T12 bulbs?

I just bought a dozen ballasts of ebay for the T8s and fixed the pile
of dead $10 shoplights in the corner of the garage. [worked out to
about $6 a ballast] I bought a case of T8s for them.

I just ran across a 1/2 box of T12s- will they work ok in the new T8
lights?

T8 requires less current and more voltage than T12.

If you run T8 bulbs from T12 ballasts, they may or may not start, and
they may flicker or have unstable operation if they do start. If they
run, their life is likely to be shortened.

T12 bulbs powered by T8 ballasts will be underpowered. This *may*
shorten their life. 34 watt T12 bulbs may flicker or swirl or bead with
T8 ballasts as well as run dim.

- Don Klipstein )

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:59:58 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:42:28 -0600, "DanG" wrote:

It sounds to me as if you bought T8 bulbs to go in an old fixture
made for T 12 bulbs. The bulbs will fit, the ballast cannot drive
T8's. If you installed new fixtures, this is not the problem
assuming you have T8 ballasts for T8 bulbs.

While you're discussing the difference- What *is* the difference
between the T8 & T12 bulbs?

I just bought a dozen ballasts of ebay for the T8s and fixed the pile
of dead $10 shoplights in the corner of the garage. [worked out to
about $6 a ballast] I bought a case of T8s for them.

I just ran across a 1/2 box of T12s- will they work ok in the new T8
lights?

T8 requires less current and more voltage than T12.

If you run T8 bulbs from T12 ballasts, they may or may not start, and
they may flicker or have unstable operation if they do start. If they
run, their life is likely to be shortened.

T12 bulbs powered by T8 ballasts will be underpowered. This *may*
shorten their life. 34 watt T12 bulbs may flicker or swirl or bead with
T8 ballasts as well as run dim.

- Don Klipstein )

Ok, just hold on a minute here. The new tubes I bought for the new
fixture were much smaller (diameter) than the old tubes in the old
fixture. Do I need to check that they are either T8 or T12 and also
what the fixture is?

dgk wrote:
....
Ok, just hold on a minute here. The new tubes I bought for the new
fixture were much smaller (diameter) than the old tubes in the old
fixture. Do I need to check that they are either T8 or T12 and also
what the fixture is?

The smaller (1") diameter are T8; T12 are 1-1/2" D.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5426758_fluorescent-vs-bulbs.html

--

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:14:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

dgk wrote:
...
Ok, just hold on a minute here. The new tubes I bought for the new
fixture were much smaller (diameter) than the old tubes in the old
fixture. Do I need to check that they are either T8 or T12 and also
what the fixture is?

The smaller (1") diameter are T8; T12 are 1-1/2" D.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5426758_fluorescent-vs-bulbs.html


Ok, then I have T8 and the fixture is for T8.