wrote in message
...
[major snippage]

It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in
a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have
seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run
would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box
from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted
together.

I've seen the same, and wondered why it would be OK to tie three #12 wires
together with just a #12 pigtail wire running to the neutral bus. I think
it's better to install another neutral bus in the box than to wire nut them
together just to avoid overloading that last little segment of wire.

I also recall some issue about NEC no longer permitting different size wires
under the same screw in a neutral bus. When I added some new circuits, I
made sure each neutral had its own hole on the bus bar (probably overkill,
but if they're now requiring it, there must be a reason - I think).

Whether it's any safer, it looks a heck of lot neater that way and no one's
life is depending on a wire nut, one of the most troublesome sort of
connectors I've ever seen. My whole house's electrical circuits had been
wired-nutted everywhere you could put a wire nut and at least half of the
problems I tracked down were from bad "nut jobs."

Another 1/4 were from cheap backstabbed 3 wire outlets installed on 2 wire
ungrounded circuits (!!!) and the other 1/4 was from assorted lunacy like
pulling neutrals from wherever was convenient and confusing neutrals and
grounds. That's why we got it cheap. One trip around the house with a
little outlet tester and they knew they had to knock the price down. A $400
home inspection DIDN'T catch the phony grounded outlets, FWIW. That's also
when I learned to never use an inspector recommended by ANY real estate
agent. They must have special lists of "inspectors" guaranteed to not queer
the deal.

--
Bobby G.

Nate Nagel wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:

[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an
average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to
power the
oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only
110VAC.

Electric water heaters have igniters?


Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters
similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.

TDD

right, but a gas water heater wouldn't need a 240VAC circuit to serve
it, either. So still only 2 wires plus ground.

nate


Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology. R. Green may be
somewhere other than The U.S. Them dang furners talk funny
ya know. *snicker*

TDD

In article , wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:

[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an
average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to
power the
oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only
110VAC.

Electric water heaters have igniters?


Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters
similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.

TDD

right, but a gas water heater wouldn't need a 240VAC circuit to serve
it, either. So still only 2 wires plus ground.

nate


Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology. R. Green may be
somewhere other than The U.S. Them dang furners talk funny
ya know. *snicker*

Since he's talking about services that supply both 240V and 120V loads, he's
almost certainly somewhere in North America. Possibly Central or northern
South America. Thaty type of service is found almost nowhere else.

In article , "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message
...
[major snippage]

It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in
a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have
seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run
would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box
from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted
together.

I've seen the same, and wondered why it would be OK to tie three #12 wires
together with just a #12 pigtail wire running to the neutral bus.

It's *not* OK if they're on different circuits.

I think
it's better to install another neutral bus in the box than to wire nut them
together just to avoid overloading that last little segment of wire.

Exactly.

On Nov 7, 6:02*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message

... [major snippage]

It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in
a junction box. * Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have
seperate runs to them. * In that box, the neutrals from each light run
would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box
from the breaker. * So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted
together.

I've seen the same, and wondered why it would be OK to tie three #12 wires
together with just a #12 pigtail wire running to the neutral bus. *I think
it's better to install another neutral bus in the box than to wire nut them
together just to avoid overloading that last little segment of wire.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. You wouldn't
install another neutral bus or even have a neutral bus in a simple
junction box that contains a switch for three lights, which is the
example I gave. And you certainly wouldn't ever pig tail neutrals
together in a panel box and then connect the pig tail to the neutral
bus.





I also recall some issue about NEC no longer permitting different size wires
under the same screw in a neutral bus. *When I added some new circuits, I
made sure each neutral had its own hole on the bus bar (probably overkill,
but if they're now requiring it, there must be a reason - I think).

Whether it's any safer, it looks a heck of lot neater that way and no one's
life is depending on a wire nut, one of the most troublesome sort of
connectors I've ever seen. *My whole house's electrical circuits had been
wired-nutted everywhere you could put a wire nut and at least half of the
problems I tracked down were from bad "nut jobs."

Another 1/4 were from cheap backstabbed 3 wire outlets installed on 2 wire
ungrounded circuits (!!!) and the other 1/4 was from assorted lunacy like
pulling neutrals from wherever was convenient and confusing neutrals and
grounds. *That's why we got it cheap. *One trip around the house with a
little outlet tester and they knew they had to knock the price down. A $400
home inspection DIDN'T catch the phony grounded outlets, FWIW. *That's also
when I learned to never use an inspector recommended by ANY real estate
agent. *They must have special lists of "inspectors" guaranteed to not queer
the deal.

--
Bobby G.

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:

[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an
average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to
power the
oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only
110VAC.

Electric water heaters have igniters?


Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters
similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.

TDD

Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup, but
I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral
connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me not to
do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in
graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!

--
Bobby G.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal?

No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads.
Examples
include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls)
and
electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).

What about air conditioner igniters? (-:

--
Bobby G.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:


[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an
average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to power
the
oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only
110VAC.

Electric water heaters have igniters?

Oops. I knew there was something wrong with that sentence when I was moving
from the general to the specific. How about: Cold fusion electric water
heaters have igniters to start the fusion process? Or: They need an
igniter to activate a Maxwell's Demon that sorts the hotter water molecules
from the cooler ones? How about - I f_cked up! Yeah, that's the ticket!
But you get the general gist. Some of that 240VAC gear needs 110VAC
connections . . . Just NOT *electric* water heater igniters. (-:

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Nov 7, 6:02 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message

...
[major snippage]

It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in
a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have
seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run
would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box
from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted
together.

I've seen the same, and wondered why it would be OK to tie three #12 wires
together with just a #12 pigtail wire running to the neutral bus. I think
it's better to install another neutral bus in the box than to wire nut
them
together just to avoid overloading that last little segment of wire.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. You wouldn't
install another neutral bus or even have a neutral bus in a simple
junction box that contains a switch for three lights, which is the
example I gave. And you certainly wouldn't ever pig tail neutrals
together in a panel box and then connect the pig tail to the neutral
bus.

You're correct, of course, you did say junction box. I have, however, seen
more than one circuit box where instead of installing a new bus bar, they've
just nutted together neutrals when there wasn't anywhere on the bus bar
another neutral could go. Of course, this was a house that had the three
wire outlets attached to two-wire circuits (no real ground, no GFCI
upstream), neutrals flying in from anywhere that was handy with the same for
ground wires, as in sticking a pipe in the ground with a clamp on it in
three different exterior locations where they needed a ground instead of
running a wire back to the panel for a common grounding point.

My apologies if it seemed I was criticizing you, I missed the "junction box"
part and read in my own concerns about what I had see inside circuit boxes
in older houses with very small panels. I undid those pigtails in my main
panel and mounted another bus bar, even moving the neutrals that were
legitimate in that they were not pigtailed, but had two same gauge wires
under one screw.

I recall having a long discussion *somewhere* as to why there was (IIRC) a
new prohibition against more than wire under a neutral bus bar screw unless
explicitly approved for such connections by the panel maker. Maybe it was
here. I just assumed that there was evidence that a two-wire hole and set
screw arrangement worked loose more often than a single wire under the set
screw. I do know that every neutral wire on the bus was loose. Don't know
if the last person to work on it was weak-handed or that over time, the
copper deformed over time and loosened up. I suspect a little bit of both.

There, that should get me in at least as much trouble as my "electric water
heater igniter did" and then some!

--
Bobby G.






I also recall some issue about NEC no longer permitting different size
wires
under the same screw in a neutral bus. When I added some new circuits, I
made sure each neutral had its own hole on the bus bar (probably overkill,
but if they're now requiring it, there must be a reason - I think).

Whether it's any safer, it looks a heck of lot neater that way and no
one's
life is depending on a wire nut, one of the most troublesome sort of
connectors I've ever seen. My whole house's electrical circuits had been
wired-nutted everywhere you could put a wire nut and at least half of the
problems I tracked down were from bad "nut jobs."

Another 1/4 were from cheap backstabbed 3 wire outlets installed on 2 wire
ungrounded circuits (!!!) and the other 1/4 was from assorted lunacy like
pulling neutrals from wherever was convenient and confusing neutrals and
grounds. That's why we got it cheap. One trip around the house with a
little outlet tester and they knew they had to knock the price down. A
$400
home inspection DIDN'T catch the phony grounded outlets, FWIW. That's also
when I learned to never use an inspector recommended by ANY real estate
agent. They must have special lists of "inspectors" guaranteed to not
queer
the deal.

--
Bobby G.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:
wrote in message
...
[major snippage]

It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in
a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have
seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run
would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box
from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted
together.

I've seen the same, and wondered why it would be OK to tie three #12
wires
together with just a #12 pigtail wire running to the neutral bus.

It's *not* OK if they're on different circuits.

Yes. I erred by missing the "junction box" part of the statement about
pig-tailed neutrals although I've seen that happen in main panels when all
the busbar slots are full. That was a lot easier to fix than finding three
neutrals wire-nutted, pigtailed and jammed tight, not in a junction box, but
stuffed into a light switch box behind a light switch.

I've run into that situation with old wiring and remotely controlled X-10
switches more times than I care to remember. The original switch was a very
shallow bodied snap switch, the X-10 switch was twice as big. There was
*almost* enough room for the new switch and all the nutted together
neutrals, as long as I didn't screw the switch down all the way.

When it came time to repaint the bathroom, I finally decide carve out space
for a 2 gang box since I was plastering and painting anyway. This is old
cloth covered wiring that doesn't tolerate too much abuse and there's
nothing like wire-nutting and box-stuffing to torture that copper into
breaking.

Fortunately, there's always been enough wire left intact in the box to
pigtail the remains, even if it meant adding a 2 gang box to allow easy
reach. But what happens when I break an old wire that can't be pigtailed in
the box?

--
Bobby G.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 11/7/2009 10:49 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the
neutral could be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the
currents in the hot wires. This is a fire hazard.

Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!

I know your tongue is in your cheek: however, while that would be a
clever way of making the circuit safe, at least fire-wise, I'm sure you
realize it could make it very, very unsafe, since it would possibly
leave an energized hot wire but a disconnected neutral.

But hey, it's a fun thought experiment.

(This is a similar problem to those very badly designed fuseboxes of
yesteryear that had fuses for both hot and neutral. My friend's house
has one of those, which can leave the hot energized but the neutral
disconnected. Wonder what genius came up with that design? His simple
but elegant solution is to overfuse the neutrals (w/30-amp fuses),
leaving 15 A fuses (actually circuit breakers in the form of a fuse) on
the hot side.)

I was reading about the English "ring" circuit the other day and how they
abandoned the central fuse/breaker panel altogether and put fuses in each
plug! It's remarkable, I think, that there's so much uniformity in
electrical wiring. Keeping in mind that most regulatory bodies operate on
the tombstone basis (enough people die, time to regulate something!) that
means that it's more than likely somebody died for every rule they come up
with.

I wonder how many electricians got their union card renewed by St. Peter to
cause the "tied breaker" rules to come into existence for three-wire Edison
circuits? Heck, how many elephants died in the AC v. DC war between Tesla
and Edison? This electricity is lethal stuff.

I wonder how many people have been electrocuted since the electric age
began. It's got to be impressive. Add in the people who were killed in
fires or explosions caused by electrical ignition, and you've probably got a
major US city's worth of deaths. No wonder why the Greeks reserved the
lightning bolt for the capo di tutti capi, Zeus. Back then electricity
killed people without providing much in the way of benefits. At least now
we get some heat, light and TV power out of the deal and instead of Zeus,
the Energizer Bunny is the new symbol of electric power.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 11/7/2009 10:49 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the
neutral could be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the
currents in the hot wires. This is a fire hazard.

Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!

I know your tongue is in your cheek: however, while that would be a
clever way of making the circuit safe, at least fire-wise, I'm sure you
realize it could make it very, very unsafe, since it would possibly
leave an energized hot wire but a disconnected neutral.

But hey, it's a fun thought experiment.

(This is a similar problem to those very badly designed fuseboxes of
yesteryear that had fuses for both hot and neutral. My friend's house
has one of those, which can leave the hot energized but the neutral
disconnected. Wonder what genius came up with that design? His simple
but elegant solution is to overfuse the neutrals (w/30-amp fuses),
leaving 15 A fuses (actually circuit breakers in the form of a fuse) on
the hot side.)

I was reading about the English "ring" circuit the other day and how they
abandoned the central fuse/breaker panel altogether and put fuses in each
plug! It's remarkable, I think, that there's so much uniformity in
electrical wiring. Keeping in mind that most regulatory bodies operate on
the tombstone basis (enough people die, time to regulate something!) that
means that it's more than likely somebody died for every rule they come up
with.

I wonder how many electricians got their union card renewed by St. Peter
to
cause the "tied breaker" rules to come into existence for three-wire
Edison
circuits? Heck, how many elephants died in the AC v. DC war between Tesla
and Edison? This electricity is lethal stuff.

I wonder how many people have been electrocuted since the electric age
began. It's got to be impressive. Add in the people who were killed in
fires or explosions caused by electrical ignition, and you've probably got
a
major US city's worth of deaths. No wonder why the Greeks reserved the
lightning bolt for the capo di tutti capi, Zeus. Back then electricity
killed people without providing much in the way of benefits. At least now
we get some heat, light and TV power out of the deal and instead of Zeus,
the Energizer Bunny is the new symbol of electric power.


Well, now we have automobiles, good for 50,000 quick deaths a year, McD's,
ciggies, and ethanol good for a few hundred thousand slow deaths a year, and
for those who want lobotomization whilst slowly dying, we got RealityTV,
JudgeJudy, JohnEdwards Cross Country, and all the rest.

Altho, I *do* miss Whitney Houston bellowing at her in-house dealer Bobby
Brown for her crack pipe....

--
EA



--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:13:27 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:

[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an
average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to
power the
oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only
110VAC.

Electric water heaters have igniters?


Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters
similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.

TDD

right, but a gas water heater wouldn't need a 240VAC circuit to serve
it, either. So still only 2 wires plus ground.

nate

How about an electric water heater with a timer to turn it off during
the day? No igniter, but it still uses both voltages.
--
47 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:41:21 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal?

No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads.
Examples
include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls)
and
electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).

What about air conditioner igniters? (-:

If you have gas air conditioning.

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:41:21 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal?

No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads.
Examples
include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls)
and
electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).

What about air conditioner igniters? (-:

This air conditioner is a hybrid system that can run on either gas or
electricity. Therefore, it has both an igniter and 240V service. You'd
have this if you prefer gas, but that's unreliable.

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:02:54 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...


If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the neutral could
be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the currents in the hot
wires. This is a fire hazard.

Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!

How do you plan to do that?

Install a second service panel. Don't connect any hot wires to it, but
connect one (or both if you need to) of the buses to the neutral in
the main panel. Now you have a place for neutral breakers.

OK, that's not safe. Get a 3-phase panel (and breakers) and use the
third "phase" for neutral.

"Harry L" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:02:54 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "Existential Angst"
wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...


If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the neutral
could
be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the currents in the
hot
wires. This is a fire hazard.

Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!

How do you plan to do that?

Install a second service panel. Don't connect any hot wires to it, but
connect one (or both if you need to) of the buses to the neutral in
the main panel. Now you have a place for neutral breakers.

OK, that's not safe. Get a 3-phase panel (and breakers) and use the
third "phase" for neutral.

Ingenious!

And, if Local 3 gets a hold of this idea and lobbies the NEC.......
--
EA

Gary H wrote:
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:41:21 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Existential Angst"
wrote:
Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal?
No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads.
Examples
include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls)
and
electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).
What about air conditioner igniters? (-:

If you have gas air conditioning.

Theoretically possible; my grandparents had a gas refrigerator. Worked
well and quiet, too.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Robert Green wrote:

Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the
backup, but I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC
and a neutral connection." I got caught fair and square. President
Bill taught me not to do what he did. I wonder what would have
happened had he confessed in graphic detail instead of lying? I
doubt it could have been any worse!

The cover-up gets you:

Said Bill Clinton to you Ms Lewinsky,
"We don't want to leave clues like Kaczynski,
Since you look such a mess,
Use the hem of your dress,
And wipe that stuff off your chinsky."

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 11/7/2009 10:49 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...

If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the
neutral could be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the
currents in the hot wires. This is a fire hazard.

Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!

I know your tongue is in your cheek: however, while that would be a
clever way of making the circuit safe, at least fire-wise, I'm sure you
realize it could make it very, very unsafe, since it would possibly
leave an energized hot wire but a disconnected neutral.

But hey, it's a fun thought experiment.

(This is a similar problem to those very badly designed fuseboxes of
yesteryear that had fuses for both hot and neutral. My friend's house
has one of those, which can leave the hot energized but the neutral
disconnected. Wonder what genius came up with that design? His simple
but elegant solution is to overfuse the neutrals (w/30-amp fuses),
leaving 15 A fuses (actually circuit breakers in the form of a fuse) on
the hot side.)

I was reading about the English "ring" circuit the other day and how
they
abandoned the central fuse/breaker panel altogether and put fuses in
each
plug! It's remarkable, I think, that there's so much uniformity in
electrical wiring. Keeping in mind that most regulatory bodies operate
on
the tombstone basis (enough people die, time to regulate something!)
that
means that it's more than likely somebody died for every rule they come
up
with.

I wonder how many electricians got their union card renewed by St. Peter
to
cause the "tied breaker" rules to come into existence for three-wire
Edison
circuits? Heck, how many elephants died in the AC v. DC war between
Tesla
and Edison? This electricity is lethal stuff.

I wonder how many people have been electrocuted since the electric age
began. It's got to be impressive. Add in the people who were killed in
fires or explosions caused by electrical ignition, and you've probably
got
a
major US city's worth of deaths. No wonder why the Greeks reserved the
lightning bolt for the capo di tutti capi, Zeus. Back then electricity
killed people without providing much in the way of benefits. At least
now
we get some heat, light and TV power out of the deal and instead of
Zeus,
the Energizer Bunny is the new symbol of electric power.


Well, now we have automobiles, good for 50,000 quick deaths a year, McD's,
ciggies, and ethanol good for a few hundred thousand slow deaths a year,
and
for those who want lobotomization whilst slowly dying, we got RealityTV,
JudgeJudy, JohnEdwards Cross Country, and all the rest.

Altho, I *do* miss Whitney Houston bellowing at her in-house dealer Bobby
Brown for her crack pipe....

--
EA

Whitney and Bobby, there's a "hot to neutral" ratio if there ever was one.
Just trying to stay on topic . . . (-:

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:
[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an
average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to
power the
oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only
110VAC.
Electric water heaters have igniters?

Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters
similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.

TDD

Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup, but
I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral
connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me not to
do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in
graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!

--
Bobby G.



He would have been worshiped and admired even more by the Leftist
perverts. *snicker*

TDD

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:
[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an
average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to
power the
oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only
110VAC.
Electric water heaters have igniters?

Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters
similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.

TDD

Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup,
but
I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral
connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me
not to
do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in
graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!

--
Bobby G.



He would have been worshiped and admired even more by the Leftist
perverts. *snicker*

TDD

Sorry, but I am thoroughly non-partisan. As for which is *really* the perv
party, at least Clinton liked girls. Republicans preach one thing (sort of
like Catholic priests) and then swing the other way. Mark Foley was hardly
ever at work because he was "working" on young male pages. And then there's
Larry "can't you hear me knocking" Craig, the gay airport bathroom sex
pervert. The truth is that neither party can lay a claim to being more
moral than the other. I'm an independent because both parties stink. (-:

But what bothers me most about the Clinton witch hunt is this: Two hundred
or so FBI agents were running around looking for Bill's DNA on dresses when
the SHOULD have been looking at the unusual number of foreigners suddenly
interested in flying commercial jets. At least one agent did, and she got
slapped down. They had they information they needed to foil that attack,
but they were off on a witch hunt, living up to our Puritanical heritage. We
got into a frenzy because a man lied about an affair. Worse, still, the
entire country acted as if it was the first time in history that it ever
happened!

Those murdering terrorist scumbags took advantage of our eternal partisan
bickering and schoolyard fascination with sex to deal us a deadly blow.
Those charged with protecting us were looking for clues to the wrong "blow"
job and 3000 people blew up as a result. I think the nation's perverse
interest in sex cost us dearly because it diverted precious resources away
from the hunt for terrorists. If Clinton had come clean, (or been clean in
the first place!) 9/11 might have been averted. If the Republicans, some of
whom it turned out were far more dangerous sex deviants than Clinton, hadn't
gone apeshi+ over a hummer, we might still have the World Trade Center. But
we took our eyes off the ball and got slammed. Hard. It was inexcusable, and
the sad part is we would do it again in a heartbeat. We've learned nothing.

So, that's what I meant by "I wonder what would have happened."

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:


Those murdering terrorist scumbags took advantage of our eternal partisan
bickering and schoolyard fascination with sex to deal us a deadly blow.

Still think 9/11 was an outside job, huh? To me, our collective
blindness is more frightening than anything else.

Robert Green wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Robert Green"
wrote:
[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an
average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to
power the
oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only
110VAC.
Electric water heaters have igniters?

Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters
similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.

TDD
Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup,
but
I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral
connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me
not to
do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in
graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!

--
Bobby G.


He would have been worshiped and admired even more by the Leftist
perverts. *snicker*

TDD

Sorry, but I am thoroughly non-partisan. As for which is *really* the perv
party, at least Clinton liked girls. Republicans preach one thing (sort of
like Catholic priests) and then swing the other way. Mark Foley was hardly
ever at work because he was "working" on young male pages. And then there's
Larry "can't you hear me knocking" Craig, the gay airport bathroom sex
pervert. The truth is that neither party can lay a claim to being more
moral than the other. I'm an independent because both parties stink. (-:

But what bothers me most about the Clinton witch hunt is this: Two hundred
or so FBI agents were running around looking for Bill's DNA on dresses when
the SHOULD have been looking at the unusual number of foreigners suddenly
interested in flying commercial jets. At least one agent did, and she got
slapped down. They had they information they needed to foil that attack,
but they were off on a witch hunt, living up to our Puritanical heritage. We
got into a frenzy because a man lied about an affair. Worse, still, the
entire country acted as if it was the first time in history that it ever
happened!

Those murdering terrorist scumbags took advantage of our eternal partisan
bickering and schoolyard fascination with sex to deal us a deadly blow.
Those charged with protecting us were looking for clues to the wrong "blow"
job and 3000 people blew up as a result. I think the nation's perverse
interest in sex cost us dearly because it diverted precious resources away
from the hunt for terrorists. If Clinton had come clean, (or been clean in
the first place!) 9/11 might have been averted. If the Republicans, some of
whom it turned out were far more dangerous sex deviants than Clinton, hadn't
gone apeshi+ over a hummer, we might still have the World Trade Center. But
we took our eyes off the ball and got slammed. Hard. It was inexcusable, and
the sad part is we would do it again in a heartbeat. We've learned nothing.

So, that's what I meant by "I wonder what would have happened."

--
Bobby G.



My brother "Uncle Monster" has a number of sayings called
"Monsterisms" and one of them is: "Republicans disgust me
but Democrats are special, they horrify me." I am in complete
concordance with that sentiment. Our father was a Southern
Republican and our mother was a New York Democrat so we grew
up with the insanity of politics. "Republicans can't stay out
of your bedroom and Democrats can't stay out of your wallet."
Southern Republicans, by the way, make your general run of
the Republican look liken a fairy when it comes to conservatism.
Back when I was a damn hippie in college, I thought my father
was the God awfullest bigot in the whole world, now I'm worse
than he ever was.

TDD

In article , wrote:

Back when I was a damn hippie in college, I thought my father
was the God awfullest bigot in the whole world, now I'm worse
than he ever was.

We've noticed.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:

Back when I was a damn hippie in college, I thought my father
was the God awfullest bigot in the whole world, now I'm worse
than he ever was.

We've noticed.

Thank you, thank you..... takes a bow.
It's something you have to grow into.

"A Conservative is a Liberal who has been repeatedly
sodomized by the government and decided that he won't
tolerate it anymore. Liberals who stay that way afterwards
are the weird ones who like it."

TDD