DerbyDad03 wrote:

"Third, it's NOT dangerous. Or complicated. Union people do it
every day."

That oughta endear you to the "union people".

Buncha humorless scolds, you ask me.

Jeffy3 wrote:
Our 55 year-old house still runs on fuses . We have never upgraded to
a circuit breaker . We hardly ever blow fuses (it's been years
actually). We even run our heater and air conditioner off an
individual fuse box installed 25 years ago. We have an electrician
coming out to give us an estimate to upgrade to a circuit breaker, but
since we've made the appointment we've heard from two people who say
fuses are better and why bother spending the money if we don't have
any problems. Thoughts ?


Is/was there ever a fusebox that was larger than a 60 amp main?

*I have a customer with a Cutler Hammer circuit breaker panel that has
200
amp fuses as the main.

Interesting, is it actual 200A main fuses in the breaker panel, or is it
a 200A fused disconnect feeding a main lug breaker panel?



*Fuses in the circuit breaker panel.



If it is working now & sized properly then it shouldnt be an issue till
you sell the house.

MikeB

On Nov 2, 5:56*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:46:55 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:







wrote:

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 07:12:55 -0800 (PST), Jeffy3
wrote:

Our 55 year-old house still runs on fuses . We have never upgraded to
a circuit breaker . We hardly ever blow fuses (it's been years
actually). We even run our heater and air conditioner off an
individual fuse box installed 25 years ago. We have an electrician
coming out to give us an estimate to upgrade to a circuit breaker, but
since we've made the appointment we've heard from two people who say
fuses are better and why bother spending the money if we don't have
any problems. *Thoughts ?

If the fuses are properly sized they are safer than breakers because
they fail "open". A breaker can fail closed and provide no protection
(Google Federal Pacific and read the stories)
If you have the proper sized type S adapters and Type S fuses they
fully comply with the 2008 code. You could install one tomorrow in new
construction ... if someone made the panel.
Unfortunately a home inspector would flag fuses as a defect, but most
HIs are generally clueless when it comes to code and they state that
in their contract disclaimer.

Where do you find the necessary AFCI fuses for the bedroom circuits?

In that mythical "device" type AFCI that 210.12(B) ex1 alludes to.

... and that is virtually all receptacles now.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My neighbour recently had his main fuse box replaced by a registered
electrician. I'm glad he did!
Couple of times in recent years had to help him out with fuse box
problems and it had got to the point where we had moved a couple of
fuse carriers to other positions on the buss-bars. Bad connections and
comment like "The heat in such and such a room doesn't work any more"!
Fuses were a mixture of screw-in (Edison screw) type fuse for single
leg circuits and double fuse carriers each with two cartridge fuses
for his electric baseboard heating circuits. Those cartridge fuse
carriers could accommodate IIRC either 20 amp or 30 amp fuses.
Not even sure the fuse panel was new when installed some 40 years ago!
And it was on the 'weather' end of the house in a cool outer wall
where there was also likelihood of some condensation?
And inevitably the odd circuit had been added over the years
especially when they remodeled their kitchen.
The neighbours not being very electrically knowledgeable 'could' have
put in wrong size fuse, although used to check that for them.
So in this case the circuit breaker was/is the best replacement.
But if the loads are OK, fuses and wiring the right type and size, the
owners/occupiers sensible (no pennies), and the panel is tight, dry,
and in good condition replacement may not be necessary at all.
Do agree that if/when selling the property the lack of a 'proper'
circuit breaker and the ensuing almost inevitable other costs that
will be found necessary to be done in order to then meet code could
knock quite a few dollars off the asking price!
But as long as it is safe!
The OP seems very responsible by asking the question; not one of those
situations where a slum landlord is trying to get by without spending
unnecessarily on repairs, eh? Good luck.

On Nov 2, 9:48*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

When I had my 60 amp fused service upgraded to a 150 amp breaker panel
a bunch of years back, it required a new service cable from the bugs
at the top of the house through the meter and then to the panel. I
don't recall if it required new wires from the pole to the bugs.

I don't think it safe to "assume" that all the OP needs is a breaker
box and a screwdriver to upgrade to 200 amps.

Oh. Right. What I meant to imply was that he could put in a 200 Amp service
panel even if he is currently hooked-up with only 60 Amp service from the
power company.

You didn't imply it, you said it. You said you can get everything at
a big box store (they're selling experience and code knowledge now?),
and it would only take an afternoon's work. No caveats, no "check to
see", nothing except, "Hey, it ain't hard."

I think I saw your TV show, which one are you again...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNfGyIW7aHM

Let's do a little test. Check out this thread on another forum and
tell me how many things to check and caveats you omitted in your "It
Ain't Hard" post.
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electri...el-147030.html
Here's a hint: all of them.

"Should" is not a caution, it is a weasel word, and in your case
indicating you don't know what you're talking about and shouldn't be
giving advice on the topic.

R

wrote:

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:53:35 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:

Where do you find the necessary AFCI fuses for the bedroom circuits?

In that mythical "device" type AFCI that 210.12(B) ex1 alludes to.

... and that is virtually all receptacles now.

AFCI, not GFCI.

210.12(b) clearly states an AFCI circuit breaker listed to provide
protection to the *entire branch circuit*. A receptacle could never fill
that requirement.

Read it again, particularly exception 1
Where does it say "breaker"?
Ex 1 says essentially
You can come off your fuse panel in a metal raceway to a box with a
device type AFCI (similar to the device GFCI) then on to your
protected circuits.

That would be new since my NEC2002 book, including the expansion to
rooms other than bedrooms. The NEC2002 had no such exception and
specifically indicated protection for the "entire branch circuit". Since
I live in an area with no code, permits or inspections, NEC2002 is quite
sufficient for my needs.

The exception showed up in the 2005 book but we are still waiting for
the "device type" AFCI. That is why I said "mythical"
I do understand they exist but they are not out in the field the last
I heard..

Funny, I have the originally referenced AFCI circuit breakers in my
Square D QO panel. If you mean an AFCI / GFCI combination receptacle
product, I haven't seen one of those either.

On Nov 3, 9:14*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Nov 2, 9:48*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:

When I had my 60 amp fused service upgraded to a 150 amp breaker panel
a bunch of years back, it required a new service cable from the bugs
at the top of the house through the meter and then to the panel. I
don't recall if it required new wires from the pole to the bugs.

I don't think it safe to "assume" that all the OP needs is a breaker
box and a screwdriver to upgrade to 200 amps.

Oh. Right. What I meant to imply was that he could put in a 200 Amp service
panel even if he is currently hooked-up with only 60 Amp service from the
power company.

You didn't imply it, you said it. *You said you can get everything at
a big box store (they're selling experience and code knowledge now?),
and it would only take an afternoon's work. *No caveats, no "check to
see", nothing except, "Hey, it ain't hard."

I think I saw your TV show, which one are you again...?http://www.youtube..com/watch?v=tNfGyIW7aHM

Let's do a little test. *Check out this thread on another forum and
tell me how many things to check and caveats you omitted in your "It
Ain't Hard" post.http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electri...e-service-pane...
Here's a hint: *all of them.

"Should" is not a caution, it is a weasel word, and in your case
indicating you don't know what you're talking about and shouldn't be
giving advice on the topic.

R

OP here. No, I will not try to do this myself. Installing light
fixtures and ceiling fans are the extent of what I will do
electrically.

On Nov 3, 9:45*am, Jeffy3 wrote:

OP here. No, I will not try to do this myself. *Installing light
fixtures and ceiling fans are the extent of what I will do
electrically.

I'd never argue a personal comfort level decision unless the person
were doing something risky. I don't know your abilities, and I wasn't
calling them into question. I was responding to what I considered bad
advice. Of course it's your house, your abilities, your call.
Everyone has to pick their battles and balance that pesky risk v.
reward thing. Pretty much everything in residential construction is
doable by a determined DIYer, but that doesn't mean it will be easy,
cheap, quick or safe.

One of the things about changing a panel is the opportunity to bring
things up to date to conform to code (usually safety related), and
correct sketchy installations. Old houses have lots of sketchy
installations. Periodic house maintenance lets you keep an eye on
things and catch problems before they become bigger problems. Your
house isn't that old, but it's still the same idea whether it's
painting, changing batteries in smoke detectors, cleaning your gutters
or anything else. It gives you peace of mind. Consider it insurance.

There's nothing inherently dangerous about a fuse box, but at the
least you should verify that outlets and the service are properly
grounded, wire insulation isn't dried out, there are GFIs in the
places they are supposed to be and that sort of thing. If that stuff
checks out then it's a $ decision. I have never seen any payback info
on swapping out a fuse box, but I would hazard a guess that you would
see most if not all of that money back at the time of sale. It will
certainly be one less item on the home inspector's report.

Good luck with the project.

R

I always say, if it works, don't fix it!

The main concern with fuses is that the CORRECT amperage fuse is installed
for the wiring it is protecting. (And no pennies behind fuses!)

Have the electrician verify that you have the correct fuses installed.

Then fuses are dangerous to replace because you can accidentally touch a
live metal part.

So long as you have the correct amperage fuses installed, continue to use
the correct amperage fuses, and are super careful when replacing fuses (and
are willing to take the risk), then I would say no problem.

The other thing is if the circuits are adequate or not. If you are not
planning on buying anything which will use more electricity (like a new TV),
and the existing electric system is fine with you, then no need to replace
it.

One other consideration is safety. Modern electrical systems are much safer
than older systems. They also can protect electronic gizmos from damage from
voltage surges (with a whole house surge protector and a modern ground
system). GFCI's installed will protect you from being electrocuted. AFCI
breakers can prevent electrical fires. Child safe outlets can protect small
children from being shocked. Etc. Basically a modern electrical system is
about 10 times more safe than an old fuse box system in my opinion. But this
includes rewiring the entire house, not just replacing the fuse boxes.


"Jeffy3" wrote in message
Our 55 year-old house still runs on fuses . We have never upgraded to
a circuit breaker . We hardly ever blow fuses (it's been years
actually). We even run our heater and air conditioner off an
individual fuse box installed 25 years ago. We have an electrician
coming out to give us an estimate to upgrade to a circuit breaker, but
since we've made the appointment we've heard from two people who say
fuses are better and why bother spending the money if we don't have
any problems. Thoughts ?

On Nov 2, 9:48*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 2, 6:03 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Nov 2, 12:27 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Jeffy3 wrote:
Our 55 year-old house still runs on fuses . We have never upgraded
to a circuit breaker . We hardly ever blow fuses (it's been years
actually). We even run our heater and air conditioner off an
individual fuse box installed 25 years ago. We have an electrician
coming out to give us an estimate to upgrade to a circuit breaker,
but since we've made the appointment we've heard from two people
who say fuses are better and why bother spending the money if we
don't have any problems. Thoughts ?

An alternative is to install a breaker-box yourself. You can get
everything you need at the box store and, with an afternoon's*
work, you should be able to swap out the fuse box for a 200 Amp
service.

Should cost about $300.

----
* Depending on how far you are from the hardware store for
forgotten items...

Man, WTF is up with you and bad advice? Is this some childish
attempt to be funny?

The OP has fuses. The odds of him having 200 amp service is remote.
You have no idea of his service, you have no idea of his
capabilities, he already mentioned that he was having an
electrician to come out and give a price for changing the panel -
so, what exactly are you doing besides ignoring his question and
running off at the mouth?

Stop it. It's dangerous. Pick some question that is more up your
alley and doesn't have life-threatening consequences. Maybe painting
barn scenes on hand saw blades or making clocks out of circular saw
blades.

Sorry I set you off.

First, I started my post with "An ALTERNATIVE is..."

Second, I suggested a 200 Amp service because the incremental cost
between that and a 60 Amp or 100 Amp service is trivial. Might as
well have excess capacity.

Third, it's NOT dangerous. Or complicated. Union people do it every
day.

Fourth, while you are correct that I have no idea as to the OPs
capabilities, I presumed his hand would fit a screwdriver (which is
the extent of the skill-set that's required). If I erred in this
assumption, I apologize.

It IS up my alley inasmuch as I've done it. The first one I did, I
had no experience but the job was as straightforward as changing a
ti cut the power, remove the old apparatus, install the new, turn
the power back on and see if anything smokes. It took me and my son
about five hours, what with frequent beer breaks and all.

(Just kidding about the booze - although we DID have a beer when we
finished; sort of a celebration in saving about $1000 over what an
electrical company bid.)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Fourth, while you are correct that I have no idea as to the OPs
capabilities, I presumed his hand would fit a screwdriver (which is
the extent of the skill-set that's required). If I erred in this
assumption, I apologize.

I think the error in your assumption is that all it takes is a
screwdriver and the associated skill set.

When I had my 60 amp fused service upgraded to a 150 amp breaker panel
a bunch of years back, it required a new service cable from the bugs
at the top of the house through the meter and then to the panel. I
don't recall if it required new wires from the pole to the bugs.

I don't think it safe to "assume" that all the OP needs is a breaker
box and a screwdriver to upgrade to 200 amps.

Oh. Right. What I meant to imply was that he could put in a 200 Amp service
panel even if he is currently hooked-up with only 60 Amp service from the
power company.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Regardless of what you meant to imply, that is essentially what you
*did* imply.

Your alternative was an upgrade to a 200 AMP *service* (your word -
twice) for $300 using only a screwdriver.

It's OK for you to admit that it was a bad - or at a minimum, an
incomplete - suggestion.

RicodJour wrote:
On Nov 2, 9:48 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

When I had my 60 amp fused service upgraded to a 150 amp breaker
panel a bunch of years back, it required a new service cable from
the bugs at the top of the house through the meter and then to the
panel. I don't recall if it required new wires from the pole to the
bugs.

I don't think it safe to "assume" that all the OP needs is a breaker
box and a screwdriver to upgrade to 200 amps.

Oh. Right. What I meant to imply was that he could put in a 200 Amp
service panel even if he is currently hooked-up with only 60 Amp
service from the power company.

You didn't imply it, you said it. You said you can get everything at
a big box store (they're selling experience and code knowledge now?),
and it would only take an afternoon's work. No caveats, no "check to
see", nothing except, "Hey, it ain't hard."

Right. You can't buy experience. In this case, however, none is needed
(beyond common sense and the ability to work a screwdriver). As for code
compliance, in most of the country you can't buy that either because it
doesn't exist. I live in the 3rd largest city in the nation and the city is
indifferent to what you do to your home. Since we don't have zoning, I can
even tear the house down and erect a gas station.


I think I saw your TV show, which one are you again...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNfGyIW7aHM

Let's do a little test. Check out this thread on another forum and
tell me how many things to check and caveats you omitted in your "It
Ain't Hard" post.
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electri...el-147030.html
Here's a hint: all of them.

I read the thread. Buncha worry-warts and pussies, you ask me. 'Course they
responders are evidently used to meddlesome supervision by union foremen,
city inspectors, bored power company employees, disfunctional permit clerks,
nosey neighbors, and stray dogs.


"Should" is not a caution, it is a weasel word, and in your case
indicating you don't know what you're talking about and shouldn't be
giving advice on the topic.

Good point. The OP can decide on his own whether the alternative I suggested
is appropriate for him or whether he should (pardon the weasel word) follow
the detailed instructions you provided.

Wait.... never mind.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Oh. Right. What I meant to imply was that he could put in a 200 Amp
service panel even if he is currently hooked-up with only 60 Amp
service from the power company.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Regardless of what you meant to imply, that is essentially what you
*did* imply.

Your alternative was an upgrade to a 200 AMP *service* (your word -
twice) for $300 using only a screwdriver.

I admit to a little exaggeration. He will also need some pliers,
wire-strippers, a drill, and maybe a socket wrench to screw the tapcons or
anchors to attach the box to the wall. Other small tools may be useful - for
example a hex wrench to tighten the primary's connectors instead of a
flat-bladed screwdriver and a crescent wrench.

He may even find a use for pencil, paper, and a pocket camera.


It's OK for you to admit that it was a bad - or at a minimum, an
incomplete - suggestion.

I do so admit.

As an act of contrition, I intend to feel shame the rest of the day.

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:38:50 -0800 (PST), against all advice,
something compelled Jeffy3 , to say:

\

Unless you're intending or needing to upgrade service from (say) 100 to
200A in view of an impending remodeling or other anticipated increased
loading or also replacing a 2-wire system w/ 3, what's the point?

--

Most people in our neighborhood switched over so I just assumed there
was a good reason for it, i.e. safety.


If the people in your neighborhood wanted to increase the amount
of power available, they would have to go to a breaker box. I've
had them both, and the breakers are more convenient because they
can just be reset rather than replaced, but they aren't worth the
expense if that's all you want from them.



--

Howdya like that... we started playing guitar to impress the chicks and wind
up talkin' fingernails with old men.

Ray Boyce - 9.27.09