Awl --

No real problem here, just some inneresting stuff, a general Q.

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and super-high
quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver coated/tinned -- not just
ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to what the purpose of that coating
is.
And today, in 2009, the cloth is STILL supple!!

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A, AND
each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

Imho, soldering adds a big safety factor to the splicing process, and I'm
surprised they dispensed with the requirement -- esp. in a union trade,
where the slower the better.

Most peculiar, tho, is the "circuitry strategy", which seems to be a kind of
statistical shotgun approach, where one room is not wired on one or two or
three breakers, but rather randomly throughout the house. So if a breaker
trips, 4 different locations could be affected, all over the house. Really
a pita, but it is what it is. Fortunately, there are many many circuits --
over 20.

Curious if other people in older houses have this wiring strategy. I don't
think it's easily solvable.

The electrical wisdom seems to be, leave the old as is, just add new as you
need it -- appliances, A/C, etc.

The Q is, to go through the trouble to run the new in the walls (a real
pita), or use wire-mold?
--
EA

I like to wire lighting circuits on separate breakers from outlets. Then if
an outlet breaker trips, you still have lights to see!

And I like to wire each room's outlets on its own breaker. Much easier for
troubleshooting and labeling of the breakers.

As to rewiring, if you are going to live there the rest of your life, I
would run the wiring in the walls. Looks much nicer. Electricians know how
to do this. You can always just do one room at a time.


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
Awl --

No real problem here, just some inneresting stuff, a general Q.

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and super-high
quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver coated/tinned -- not just
ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to what the purpose of that coating
is.
And today, in 2009, the cloth is STILL supple!!

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A, AND
each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

Imho, soldering adds a big safety factor to the splicing process, and I'm
surprised they dispensed with the requirement -- esp. in a union trade,
where the slower the better.

Most peculiar, tho, is the "circuitry strategy", which seems to be a kind
of statistical shotgun approach, where one room is not wired on one or two
or three breakers, but rather randomly throughout the house. So if a
breaker trips, 4 different locations could be affected, all over the
house. Really a pita, but it is what it is. Fortunately, there are many
many circuits -- over 20.

Curious if other people in older houses have this wiring strategy. I
don't think it's easily solvable.

The electrical wisdom seems to be, leave the old as is, just add new as
you need it -- appliances, A/C, etc.

The Q is, to go through the trouble to run the new in the walls (a real
pita), or use wire-mold?
--
EA

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --


Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and super-high
quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver coated/tinned -- not just
ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to what the purpose of that coating
is.

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A, AND
each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!


You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because it
usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the insulation
was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

--
EA

On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

wrote in message
...

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
what the purpose of that coating is.

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for
15 A, AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
it usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus
make soldering easier.

At least that's my understanding ...

By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it
credit for.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

wrote in message
...

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
what the purpose of that coating is.

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A,
AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
it usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus make
soldering easier.

At least that's my understanding ...

By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it credit
for.

Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision to
buy.
That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done the
rest of the house right. I was mostly right.

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of electrical
fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional area of electron
flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly twisted/nutted joint, while
solder virtually completely eleminates this conductive bottleneck.

Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). Wire nuts present
the same problem, just not as egregious as these spring-contact outlets.

I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.
The bottom line would be, I guess, to do IR drop samplings, under increasing
I, see what happens. Or measure temps at the wire nut joint under high I,
of various quality splices.

I believe it is NEC code that no wire-nutted joint -- and perhaps no joint
at all -- can exist without access to it in some kind of box/panel. It was
a NYC code.
--
EA




--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

wrote in message
...

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
what the purpose of that coating is.

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A,
AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
it usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus
make soldering easier.

At least that's my understanding ...

By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it
credit for.

Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision to
buy.
That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done
the rest of the house right. I was mostly right.

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional area
of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly twisted/nutted
joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates this conductive
bottleneck.

Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). Wire nuts present
the same problem, just not as egregious as these spring-contact outlets.

I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.
The bottom line would be, I guess, to do IR drop samplings, under
increasing I, see what happens. Or measure temps at the wire nut joint
under high I, of various quality splices.

I believe it is NEC code that no wire-nutted joint -- and perhaps no joint
at all -- can exist without access to it in some kind of box/panel. It
was a NYC code.
--
EA




--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

I don't believe there has ever been any issue with the integrity of wire nut
splices. The real danger, and the reason that William Marr invented the wire
nut in 1914, was tripping around people's houses with a hot pot of lead,
while trying to dip the splices.
The particular type of cable you have will last and remain in good condition
provided it doesn't get overheated and dried out. Where you have it in
ceiling lighting outlets, where very high wattage lamps were installed close
to ceiling, is where it degrades especially badly.

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:47:00 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:
By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it credit
for.

Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision to
buy.

Sounds like we have similar wiring in our place (late 40s build) - the
problem I've found is generally in the light fittings, where years of heat
from bulbs has slowly cooked things and it's all turned a bit brittle
(fittings which take multiple bulbs being the worst). Cut further back
and it's stood the test of time pretty well.

That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done
the rest of the house right. I was mostly right.

Our place is interesting - it was all built by the old lady who used to
own it, and it seems like she did a piece here and a piece there as and
when she felt like it. Some of it's done extremely well, but then there
are other bits where corners were obviously cut...

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional
area of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly
twisted/nutted joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates this
conductive bottleneck.

Y'know, I was amazed the first time I visited the US and discovered that
typical wiring was held together with those things - I'd done plenty of
wiring overseas and it was always with junction boxes / fittings that had
proper insulated screw terminals inside. Using a wire nut would be a
hanging offense ;-)

I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.

I've heard that soldered connections can melt if there's a serious
overload - but by that point there are probably other things to be
worrying about anyway. :-)

cheers

Jules

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

wrote in message
...

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
what the purpose of that coating is.

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15
A, AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
it usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus
make soldering easier.

At least that's my understanding ...

By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it
credit for.

Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision
to buy.
That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done
the rest of the house right. I was mostly right.

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional area
of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly twisted/nutted
joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates this conductive
bottleneck.

Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). Wire nuts
present the same problem, just not as egregious as these spring-contact
outlets.

I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.
The bottom line would be, I guess, to do IR drop samplings, under
increasing I, see what happens. Or measure temps at the wire nut joint
under high I, of various quality splices.

I believe it is NEC code that no wire-nutted joint -- and perhaps no
joint at all -- can exist without access to it in some kind of box/panel.
It was a NYC code.
--
EA




--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

I don't believe there has ever been any issue with the integrity of wire
nut splices. The real danger, and the reason that William Marr invented
the wire nut in 1914, was tripping around people's houses with a hot pot
of lead, while trying to dip the splices.
The particular type of cable you have will last and remain in good
condition provided it doesn't get overheated and dried out. Where you have
it in ceiling lighting outlets, where very high wattage lamps were
installed close to ceiling, is where it degrades especially badly.

Very true.

I woulda thought an itty bitty propane or butane torch would have done the
trick safely, with coiled solder -- altho I see how open flames give people
the willies. Altho, in new construction, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

I'm not on a jihad against wire nuts -- I use them all the time, and am glad
I don't have to solder **** together every time I want to wire something up.
It's just that they strike me, and some others, as a sort of odd evolution
in construction, and not the best choice, from a pure electrical point of
view -- but, apparently, good enough.

Ultimately, proly no odder than ****, I mean, sheet rock. goodgawd, who
could have anticipated THAT!?
Apparently, the masons union didn't, and snubbed it so that now **** rock is
under the purvue of the carpenter's union.
Those masons must be rolling over in their graves now.....

In principle, you don't even need a wire nut, on a correctly-done splice, at
least not on solid wire, and probably not on stranded as well:
The wires are so tightly twisted together, if done properly, that the wire
nut itself is really just a glorified piece of electricians tape, adding
little to the conductivity of the splice itself. In fact, iirc, I believe I
have seen very old wire nuts that had no metal on the inside!

But given that some people don't even bother to twist the wires together
(who, ME?), the wire nut does have multiple useful redundancies.
--
EA

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

wrote in message
...

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
what the purpose of that coating is.

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15
A, AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
it usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus
make soldering easier.

At least that's my understanding ...

By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it
credit for.

Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision
to buy.
That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done
the rest of the house right. I was mostly right.

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional
area of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly
twisted/nutted joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates this
conductive bottleneck.

Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). Wire nuts
present the same problem, just not as egregious as these spring-contact
outlets.

I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.
The bottom line would be, I guess, to do IR drop samplings, under
increasing I, see what happens. Or measure temps at the wire nut joint
under high I, of various quality splices.

I believe it is NEC code that no wire-nutted joint -- and perhaps no
joint at all -- can exist without access to it in some kind of
box/panel. It was a NYC code.
--
EA




--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

I don't believe there has ever been any issue with the integrity of wire
nut splices. The real danger, and the reason that William Marr invented
the wire nut in 1914, was tripping around people's houses with a hot pot
of lead, while trying to dip the splices.
The particular type of cable you have will last and remain in good
condition provided it doesn't get overheated and dried out. Where you
have it in ceiling lighting outlets, where very high wattage lamps were
installed close to ceiling, is where it degrades especially badly.

Very true.

I woulda thought an itty bitty propane or butane torch would have done the
trick safely, with coiled solder -- altho I see how open flames give
people the willies. Altho, in new construction, it shouldn't be much of
an issue.

I'm not on a jihad against wire nuts -- I use them all the time, and am
glad I don't have to solder **** together every time I want to wire
something up.
It's just that they strike me, and some others, as a sort of odd evolution
in construction, and not the best choice, from a pure electrical point of
view -- but, apparently, good enough.

Ultimately, proly no odder than ****, I mean, sheet rock. goodgawd, who
could have anticipated THAT!?
Apparently, the masons union didn't, and snubbed it so that now **** rock
is under the purvue of the carpenter's union.
Those masons must be rolling over in their graves now.....

In principle, you don't even need a wire nut, on a correctly-done splice,
at least not on solid wire, and probably not on stranded as well:
The wires are so tightly twisted together, if done properly, that the
wire nut itself is really just a glorified piece of electricians tape,
adding little to the conductivity of the splice itself. In fact, iirc, I
believe I have seen very old wire nuts that had no metal on the inside!

But given that some people don't even bother to twist the wires together
(who, ME?), the wire nut does have multiple useful redundancies.
--
EA

There were ceramic wire nuts without metal. Most wire nut manufacturers
say that twisting isn't required, but I certainly feel better knowing my
splice isn't coming apart even without the nut.

Some building materials like sheetrock, and romex cable were around in the
twenties, but apparently took quite a few years for them to be accepted

On 10/26/2009 12:47 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional
area of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly
twisted/nutted joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates
this conductive bottleneck.

I don't think this is true if a proper wire-nutted connection is made:
the threads of the nut should bite into the wires, and with enough of a
twist inside the nut, there's a plenty large enough contact area.

Soldered connections are, of course, better (assuming they're properly
made), but this isn't something I envision us going back to. (Although
who know, after the Apocalypse and a return to primitivism ...)

Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). Wire nuts
present the same problem, just not as egregious as these
spring-contact outlets.

Well, while I don't necessarily want to fan the embers of the
back-stabbing argument, I think the consensus of opinion is that wire
nut connections are far superior to backstabbed ones.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

On Oct 26, 4:21*pm, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message

...





"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
ers.com...
On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

wrote in message
m...

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
what the purpose of that coating is.

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15
A, AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
it usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus
make soldering easier.

At least that's my understanding ...

By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it
credit for.

Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision
to buy.
That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done
the rest of the house right. *I was mostly right. *

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional area
of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly twisted/nutted
joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates this conductive
bottleneck.

Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). *Wire nuts
present the same problem, just not as egregious as these spring-contact
outlets.

I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.
The bottom line would be, I guess, to do IR drop samplings, under
increasing I, see what happens. *Or measure temps at the wire nut joint
under high I, of various quality splices.

I believe it is NEC code that no wire-nutted joint -- and perhaps no
joint at all -- can exist without access to it in some kind of box/panel.
It was a NYC code.
--
EA

--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

I don't believe there has ever been any issue with the integrity of wire
nut splices. The real danger, and the reason that William Marr invented
the wire nut in 1914, was tripping around people's houses with a hot pot
of lead, while trying to dip the splices.
The particular type of cable you have will last and remain in good
condition provided it doesn't get overheated and dried out. Where you have
it in ceiling lighting outlets, where very high wattage lamps were
installed close to ceiling, is where it degrades especially badly.

Very true.

I woulda thought an itty bitty propane or butane torch would have done the
trick safely, with coiled solder -- altho I see how open flames give people
the willies. *Altho, in new construction, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

I'm not on a jihad against wire nuts -- I use them all the time, and am glad
I don't have to solder **** together every time I want to wire something up.
It's just that they strike me, and some others, as a sort of odd evolution
in construction, and not the best choice, from a pure electrical point of
view -- but, apparently, good enough.

Ultimately, proly no odder than ****, I mean, sheet rock. *goodgawd, who
could have anticipated THAT!?
Apparently, the masons union didn't, and snubbed it so that now **** rock is
under the purvue of the carpenter's union.
Those masons must be rolling over in their graves now..... *

In principle, you don't even need a wire nut, on a correctly-done splice, at
least not on solid wire, and probably not on stranded as well:
* The wires are so tightly twisted together, if done properly, that the wire
nut itself is really just a glorified piece of electricians tape, adding
little to the conductivity of the splice itself. *In fact, iirc, I believe I
have seen very old wire nuts that had no metal on the inside!

But given that some people don't even bother to twist the wires together
(who, ME?), the wire nut does have multiple useful redundancies.
--
EA



EA-

If oyu use real wire nuts by Ideal... no need to pre-twist and they
actually make up better if you don't.

Wire-Nut® Wire Connector
Wire-Nut Features

* Five Color-coded models accept from #22 to #8 AWG wire
* Fixed, Square-wire spring
* No pre-twisting required
* UL Listed and CSA Certified
* Reusable
* Shell rated for 105° C
* Flame-retardant polypropelene shell

cheers
Bob

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

No real problem here, just some inneresting stuff, a general Q.

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and super-high
quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver coated/tinned -- not just
ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to what the purpose of that coating
is.
And today, in 2009, the cloth is STILL supple!!

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A, AND
each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

Imho, soldering adds a big safety factor to the splicing process, and I'm
surprised they dispensed with the requirement -- esp. in a union trade,
where the slower the better.

Most peculiar, tho, is the "circuitry strategy", which seems to be a kind of
statistical shotgun approach, where one room is not wired on one or two or
three breakers, but rather randomly throughout the house. So if a breaker
trips, 4 different locations could be affected, all over the house. Really
a pita, but it is what it is. Fortunately, there are many many circuits --
over 20.

Curious if other people in older houses have this wiring strategy. I don't
think it's easily solvable.

The idea behind it is - if one circuit blows the whole room does not
go dark.

I've seen wiring done that has, say, all the outlets on the left wall
of all rooms on one circuit. Outlets on the right wall on one circuit,
outlets on the back wall on one circuit, and on the door wall on one
circuit.

All switched outlets on one circuit, and lights on alternate circuits
so no 2 adjacent lights share the same fuse . This was for safety
reasons - never have more than a short distance dark at one time from
a blown fuse, and for seviceability - which outlet went out? - it's
the fuse for that "location".

Not common - and only in more expensive homes, because it took a lot
more wire, and work, to install.

I'd put new wires in the wall if possible.

The electrical wisdom seems to be, leave the old as is, just add new as you
need it -- appliances, A/C, etc.

The Q is, to go through the trouble to run the new in the walls (a real
pita), or use wire-mold?

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:42:27 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 10/26/2009 12:47 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional
area of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly
twisted/nutted joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates
this conductive bottleneck.

I don't think this is true if a proper wire-nutted connection is made:
the threads of the nut should bite into the wires, and with enough of a
twist inside the nut, there's a plenty large enough contact area.

Soldered connections are, of course, better (assuming they're properly
made), but this isn't something I envision us going back to. (Although
who know, after the Apocalypse and a return to primitivism ...)

Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). Wire nuts
present the same problem, just not as egregious as these
spring-contact outlets.

Well, while I don't necessarily want to fan the embers of the
back-stabbing argument, I think the consensus of opinion is that wire
nut connections are far superior to backstabbed ones.


Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were
soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.

On Oct 26, 11:38*am, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
Awl --

No real problem here, just some inneresting stuff, a general Q.

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and super-high
quality. *The wire seems to be nickel or silver coated/tinned -- not just
ends, but the whole wire. *Curious as to what the purpose of that coating
is.
And today, in 2009, the cloth is STILL supple!!

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A, AND
each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

Imho, soldering adds a big safety factor to the splicing process, and I'm
surprised they dispensed with the requirement -- esp. in a union trade,
where the slower the better.

Most wire nuts don't even require pre-twisting of the wires. The
soldering is overkill and makes working in the box a pita.

Most peculiar, tho, is the "circuitry strategy", which seems to be a kind of
statistical shotgun approach, where one room is not wired on one or two or
three breakers, but rather randomly throughout the house. So if a breaker
trips, 4 different locations could be affected, all over the house. *Really
a pita, but it is what it is. *Fortunately, there are many many circuits -- *
over 20.

Curious if other people in older houses have this wiring strategy. *I don't
think it's easily solvable.

The electrical wisdom seems to be, leave the old as is, just add new as you
need it -- appliances, A/C, etc.

The Q is, to go through the trouble to run the new in the walls (a real
pita), or use wire-mold?

Fein Multimaster to cut the holes, and setting type joint compound to
repair them. Quickest way, and you should have the wires in the walls
for a number of reasons.

R

On Oct 26, 7:54*pm, Jules
wrote:
On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:47:00 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:
By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it credit
for.

Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision to
buy.

Sounds like we have similar wiring in our place (late 40s build) - the
problem I've found is generally in the light fittings, where years of heat
from bulbs has slowly cooked things and it's all turned a bit brittle
(fittings which take multiple bulbs being the worst). Cut further back
and it's stood the test of time pretty well.

That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done
the rest of the house right. *I was mostly right. *

Our place is interesting - it was all built by the old lady who used to
own it, and it seems like she did a piece here and a piece there as and
when she felt like it. Some of it's done extremely well, but then there
are other bits where corners were obviously cut...

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional
area of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly
twisted/nutted joint, while solder virtually completely eliminates this
conductive bottleneck.

Y'know, I was amazed the first time I visited the US and discovered that
typical wiring was held together with those things - I'd done plenty of
wiring overseas and it was always with junction boxes / fittings that had
proper insulated screw terminals inside. Using a wire nut would be a
hanging offense ;-)

I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.

I've heard that soldered connections can melt if there's a serious
overload - but by that point there are probably other things to be
worrying about anyway. :-)

cheers

Jules

No problem with 'wire nuts' (i.e. wire connectors) since 1956 when I
arrived in North America. tree residences since then two of which we
built and wired ourselves. Like everything else if they are used
properly no problems at all. There are an estimated at least one
hundred or so in this typical all-electric house built in 1970 (some
inside the connection space of baseboard electric heaters) and we have
had no problems with overheating or bad connections on both lighting
circuits (15 amp maximum) or duplex outlets circuits (20 amp). And in
one case with a three wire heavier connection from the main panel to a
secondary (pony) one.

One UK style wiring item do not miss is those fiddly (silly) little
brass screws in so-called 'chocolate blocks' and/or certain lamp
holders' often made of brass, a soft metal! Easy to strip or mar the
small screw head (or drop one!); they require an additional small
'straight blade' screwdriver. Whereas much Canadian wiring can be done
with one #2 Robertson (square) screwdriver and a pair of pliers.

Ring main circuits while maybe a good idea are either very uncommon or
not used at all.

Having got used to it rather like the 115 - 0 - 115 volt single phase
domestic service. Although if/when encounters a 3 kilowatt electric
kettle it is till abit of a surprise how quilckly it boils. But how
much boiling water does one need to make one pot of tea anyway!
Including 'heating the pot'!

Also and not as one would suspect aerial service of both 13KV primary
lines and secondary 115/230 volt wires from pole mounted transformers
to homes results in very fast restore times. Our local utility company
line crews are excellent. Seen them change out a transformer in the
middle of a snow storm, at night, in a couple of hours from the time
the 'Power has gone off" telephone call had been made.

Yes 'tinned' copper wire is easier to solder; and sometimes used in
electronics and marine environments for that reason and to resist
corrosion.

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:04:48 -0700, terry wrote:
No problem with 'wire nuts' (i.e. wire connectors) since 1956 when I
arrived in North America. tree residences since then two of which we
built and wired ourselves. Like everything else if they are used
properly no problems at all. There are an estimated at least one
hundred or so in this typical all-electric house built in 1970 (some
inside the connection space of baseboard electric heaters) and we have
had no problems with overheating or bad connections on both lighting
circuits (15 amp maximum) or duplex outlets circuits (20 amp). And in
one case with a three wire heavier connection from the main panel to a
secondary (pony) one.

I've had a few in our place that have been bad, but then maybe they were
never fitted properly when first installed - some of the wiring in our
place is very good, but some of it's a bit of a mess :-)

One UK style wiring item do not miss is those fiddly (silly) little
brass screws in so-called 'chocolate blocks' and/or certain lamp
holders' often made of brass, a soft metal! Easy to strip or mar the
small screw head (or drop one!); they require an additional small
'straight blade' screwdriver. Whereas much Canadian wiring can be done
with one #2 Robertson (square) screwdriver and a pair of pliers.

Yeah, I hear ya there. The ones used in "proper" fittings are robust
enough (equivalent in strength to the terminals on US electrical outlets)
but cheap lamps etc. can still have those and they're just nasty.

Ring main circuits while maybe a good idea are either very uncommon or
not used at all.

Seems so. Although it is more hassle to set up, and I'm never quite
convinced of the loading benefits given that the ring could fail yet still
appear to work; at least with a radial system if a connection goes bad
it's pretty obvious that it's done so.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit for the curious)

Having got used to it rather like the 115 - 0 - 115 volt single phase
domestic service. Although if/when encounters a 3 kilowatt electric
kettle it is till abit of a surprise how quilckly it boils. But how much
boiling water does one need to make one pot of tea anyway! Including
'heating the pot'!

:-) Not having 240V everywhere is one of those things that's taking some
getting used to for me. Plus I've got various 240V things I want to ship
over sometime, and it's going to be interesting planning all the
necessary wiring (most of it's stuff that can live in the 'shop or
basement, so thankfully I don't need to completely rewire the house or
anything!)


Also and not as one would suspect aerial service of both 13KV primary
lines and secondary 115/230 volt wires from pole mounted transformers to
homes results in very fast restore times. Our local utility company line
crews are excellent. Seen them change out a transformer in the middle of
a snow storm, at night, in a couple of hours from the time the 'Power
has gone off" telephone call had been made.

I've not seen much of that here (yet) but I've certainly been impressed
with how few power cuts & brownouts we've had - everywhere else I've
been in the world cuts have been quite frequent and could easily last
a few hours.

cheers

Jules

wrote:
On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:02:23 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --
Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and super-high
quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver coated/tinned -- not just
ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to what the purpose of that coating
is.
The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A, AND
each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because it
usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the insulation
was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

Yep, that is quite common even up to the early Romex. A lot of
neophyte home inspectors report it as cloth covered aluminum wire. We
all get a chuckle out of that.

BTW they usually dipped those connections in a pot of molten solder.
The solder itself came in bars, not rolled up as wire.

In the "good old days" soldering irons were probably heated with a blow
torch. Makes a solder pot sound real good.

I think I read that tinning also protected the copper from rubber
insulation, which could deteriorate it.

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:04:48 -0700, terry wrote:
No problem with 'wire nuts' (i.e. wire connectors) since 1956 when I
arrived in North America. tree residences since then two of which we
built and wired ourselves. Like everything else if they are used
properly no problems at all. There are an estimated at least one
hundred or so in this typical all-electric house built in 1970 (some
inside the connection space of baseboard electric heaters) and we have
had no problems with overheating or bad connections on both lighting
circuits (15 amp maximum) or duplex outlets circuits (20 amp). And in
one case with a three wire heavier connection from the main panel to a
secondary (pony) one.

I've had a few in our place that have been bad, but then maybe they were
never fitted properly when first installed - some of the wiring in our
place is very good, but some of it's a bit of a mess :-)

One UK style wiring item do not miss is those fiddly (silly) little
brass screws in so-called 'chocolate blocks' and/or certain lamp
holders' often made of brass, a soft metal! Easy to strip or mar the
small screw head (or drop one!); they require an additional small
'straight blade' screwdriver. Whereas much Canadian wiring can be done
with one #2 Robertson (square) screwdriver and a pair of pliers.

Yeah, I hear ya there. The ones used in "proper" fittings are robust
enough (equivalent in strength to the terminals on US electrical outlets)
but cheap lamps etc. can still have those and they're just nasty.

Ring main circuits while maybe a good idea are either very uncommon or
not used at all.

Seems so. Although it is more hassle to set up, and I'm never quite
convinced of the loading benefits given that the ring could fail yet still
appear to work; at least with a radial system if a connection goes bad
it's pretty obvious that it's done so.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit for the curious)

That was VERY inneresting!!!
Am I correct in observing that the diagram shows two "radial" connections to
the ring?

It took me a while to grok the "point" of the schematic, and when I did, it
left me with a very big Q:

How does a ring circuit SAVE copper? ?
Yeah, I can see how you can use thinner gauge wire, but now you have to use
twice as much of it!
Current capacity (density) is directly proportional to cross-sectional
area, so it seems to me this system is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other,
mass-wise in copper.
The article pointed out some potent disadvantages, as well -- somewhat
dicey, eh?

Interestingly, NYC still has DC running to some older commercial buildings!

And, NYC's 3 phase is 208, not 220 or 240 V, like most of the rest of the
country -- 208 is EXACTLY the rms voltage difference between two 120 V sine
waves 120 deg out of phase, making it, I think, the "purest" type of 3
phase.
Just across any city line, and yer up to 240 -- which bleeve me wreaks a lot
of havoc, machine-wise.

But, I thought Europe was all 220, ie, two hot legs, residentially??

I think 220-240V is a **much better** system than single hot leg 120, as it
is *inherently* balanced, and you don't have to worry about neutrals and
grounds as much -- precisely because of this balance. AND, with lower I^2R
losses, esp. when you consider that many grounds are really crappy, often
using steel cables instead of copper.

g-dAmerica never quite gets it right, unless it comes to fleecing their
public. Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the Media as a condom??
Altho amazingly our vitamins are a lot more available, fwiu. Whazzup wit
dat, over there???
--
EA




Having got used to it rather like the 115 - 0 - 115 volt single phase
domestic service. Although if/when encounters a 3 kilowatt electric
kettle it is till abit of a surprise how quilckly it boils. But how much
boiling water does one need to make one pot of tea anyway! Including
'heating the pot'!

:-) Not having 240V everywhere is one of those things that's taking some
getting used to for me. Plus I've got various 240V things I want to ship
over sometime, and it's going to be interesting planning all the
necessary wiring (most of it's stuff that can live in the 'shop or
basement, so thankfully I don't need to completely rewire the house or
anything!)


Also and not as one would suspect aerial service of both 13KV primary
lines and secondary 115/230 volt wires from pole mounted transformers to
homes results in very fast restore times. Our local utility company line
crews are excellent. Seen them change out a transformer in the middle of
a snow storm, at night, in a couple of hours from the time the 'Power
has gone off" telephone call had been made.

I've not seen much of that here (yet) but I've certainly been impressed
with how few power cuts & brownouts we've had - everywhere else I've
been in the world cuts have been quite frequent and could easily last
a few hours.

cheers

Jules

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:12 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

esp. when you consider that many grounds are really crappy, often
using steel cables instead of copper.

Huh?

The neutral conductor in triplex is the same 1350 alloy of aluminum as
the phase conductors but it may be 2 sizes smaller assuming a fairly
large line/line load will be present.

Here, the neutral AND ground wires in house cable are copper, but I was
talking about from the weatherhead of the house out to the pole -- the house
copper is attached to stranded steel support cable -- at least in my neck of
the woods in NY. And then, from the pole to whereever, I don't know what
the ground/neutral is, but I suspect it continues as the steel tension cable
for the other hot copper wires.

I've asked linemen, but these guys don't know -- I get a different answer
with each guy I ask.
--
EA

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/27/2009 11:38 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

g-dAmerica never quite gets it right, unless it comes to fleecing their
public. Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the Media as a condom??

I claim sig material! (I'll try it out for a while to see if I like it.)

Hey, ahm flattered! It was perty catchy, tho, eh?

Do me a flavor: Please give the attribution to my regular handle, which is
Proctologically Violated®©, on alt.machines.cnc, where I am a semi-regular.

Since I've been darting about elsewhere on usenet, I figgered I'd tame it up
a little -- some people just can't quite muster up the wherewithall to
respond to someone who calls themself Mr. PV'd.

When asked if I'm gay, I respond, Dude..... it says "Violated", not
"Ecstatic".

Stylistically, I would capitalize Junta, Dictatorship, and Media.
--
EA/Mr. PV'd



--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

On 10/27/2009 11:38 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

g-dAmerica never quite gets it right, unless it comes to fleecing their
public. Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the Media as a condom??

I claim sig material! (I'll try it out for a while to see if I like it.)


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:12 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

esp. when you consider that many grounds are really crappy, often
using steel cables instead of copper.

Huh?

The neutral conductor in triplex is the same 1350 alloy of aluminum as
the phase conductors but it may be 2 sizes smaller assuming a fairly
large line/line load will be present.

Here, the neutral AND ground wires in house cable are copper, but I was
talking about from the weatherhead of the house out to the pole -- the
house copper is attached to stranded steel support cable -- at least in my
neck of the woods in NY. And then, from the pole to whereever, I don't
know what the ground/neutral is, but I suspect it continues as the steel
tension cable for the other hot copper wires.

I've asked linemen, but these guys don't know -- I get a different answer
with each guy I ask.
--
EA

In "your" neck of the woods, in NY, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a
copper service entrance cable, conductors in conduit, yes, but cable no, not
in the last thirty some odd years, and a ConEd service drop is aluminum,
except for a steel strand in the bare messenger.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/27/2009 2:45 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

Stylistically, I would capitalize Junta, Dictatorship, and Media.

Why? None of those are proper nouns. That's what I call "AOL-speak".

(I was a copy editor in another lifetime.)

Well, as you will.
fyi, I will be running for office under the Indpendent Party of the
Proctologically Violated (M)asses, so I could use a, uh, plug in yer sig.

As for experience, I am a founding member of ICNAL, the International
Consortium for the Neutering of All Lawyers, and President of the American
chapter, ANAL, Americans for the Neutering of All Lawyers.

I hope I have your support.
--
EA/Mr. PV'd




--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

On 10/27/2009 2:45 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

Stylistically, I would capitalize Junta, Dictatorship, and Media.

Why? None of those are proper nouns. That's what I call "AOL-speak".

(I was a copy editor in another lifetime.)


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

wrote:


Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were
soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.

Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.

Mercury makes mad hatters. Maybe lead solder makes buttcrack
plumbers?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
wrote:


Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if
we were
soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.

Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.

Are you contributing to the moral decay of Usenet?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/27/2009 11:38 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

g-dAmerica never quite gets it right, unless it comes to
fleecing their
public. Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have
a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the Media as a condom??

I claim sig material! (I'll try it out for a while to see if
I like it.)


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
wrote:


Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were
soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.

Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.

Many European countries have gone to lead free solder in their electronics.
Give the electronics a few years and they grow what is called tin whiskers.
This shorts out the circuits.
You have to use the lead free solder to do a good repair on them.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:26:19 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:12 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

esp. when you consider that many grounds are really crappy, often
using steel cables instead of copper.

Huh?

The neutral conductor in triplex is the same 1350 alloy of aluminum as
the phase conductors but it may be 2 sizes smaller assuming a fairly
large line/line load will be present.

Here, the neutral AND ground wires in house cable are copper, but I was
talking about from the weatherhead of the house out to the pole -- the
house copper is attached to stranded steel support cable -- at least in my
neck of the woods in NY. And then, from the pole to whereever, I don't
know what the ground/neutral is, but I suspect it continues as the steel
tension cable for the other hot copper wires.

I've asked linemen, but these guys don't know -- I get a different answer
with each guy I ask.
--
EA

In "your" neck of the woods, in NY, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a
copper service entrance cable, conductors in conduit, yes, but cable no, not
in the last thirty some odd years, and a ConEd service drop is aluminum,
except for a steel strand in the bare messenger.



Which is required in order to give the cable enough tensile strength
to self support.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:50:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

wrote:


Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were
soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.

Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.

Nope - it's invaded electronics too - Most computers, TVs etc in the
last 5 years are lead free - and a royal P.I.T.A. to repair because of
it

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:08:37 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
wrote:


Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were
soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.

Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.

Many European countries have gone to lead free solder in their electronics.
Give the electronics a few years and they grow what is called tin whiskers.
This shorts out the circuits.
You have to use the lead free solder to do a good repair on them.


The question is, is there such a thing as a "good repair" on them,
using lead free solder???
In my experience, no.
Using leaded solder to "patch" them is easier than using lead-free -
and likely to last longer than a lead-free "repair"

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

wrote in message
...

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
what the purpose of that coating is.

The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A,
AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
it usually was going to be soldered.

So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
To avoid the local application of flux?

One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus make
soldering easier.

At least that's my understanding ...

By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it credit
for.

It's funny, we started with copper, went to tinned copper, went back to
copper, slid further back to effing aluminum (goodgawd), learned from that
mistake and went back to copper again. Altho power companies use aluminum
in parts of their service -- and steel!

Also, there are different grades of copper, wire supposedly being
"electrical grade", which is among the higher grades, iiuc. Electrical
grade copper commands a substantially higher scrap value than copper pipe,
altho I don't know how a dealer would tell, if it were copper bar.

I wouldn't be surprised if wire is now a crappy grade of copper. Proly
could tell by comparing the resistance of an old 500 ft spool to a new
one -- if one could find an old spool.
--
EA





--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:50:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

wrote:

Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were
soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.
Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.

Nope - it's invaded electronics too - Most computers, TVs etc in the
last 5 years are lead free - and a royal P.I.T.A. to repair because of
it

who repairs electronics? LOL!

wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:50:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

wrote:

Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were
soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.
Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.

Nope - it's invaded electronics too - Most computers, TVs etc in the
last 5 years are lead free - and a royal P.I.T.A. to repair because of
it

I'm glad I have my roll of Kestor five core solder. That
particular roll I bought back in the 70's and it always
works on anything electronic.

TDD

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/27/2009 3:28 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...

On 10/27/2009 2:45 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

Stylistically, I would capitalize Junta, Dictatorship, and Media.

Why? None of those are proper nouns. That's what I call "AOL-speak".

(I was a copy editor in another lifetime.)

Well, as you will.

It's called standard English.

Which will soon join Latin.


fyi, I will be running for office under the Indpendent Party of the
Proctologically Violated (M)asses, so I could use a, uh, plug in yer sig.

As for experience, I am a founding member of ICNAL, the International
Consortium for the Neutering of All Lawyers, and President of the
American chapter, ANAL, Americans for the Neutering of All Lawyers.

I hope I have your support.

Sorry, no can do. Unlike most of the great ignorant Unwashed
Masses(R)(TM), I don't reflexively hate lawyers.

To paraphrase what they useta say when I was a younger pup: In legal
trouble? Call a hippie.

Well, I don't hate them either. After all, I don't advocate killing them
all, just neutering them.
Whether they are issued anaesthesia would be an individual state's decision.

In fact, my various organizations are looking for a good lawyer -- neutered
or un-neutered.

Hate toward lawyers is not reflexive, btw. It's generally a steady measured
acquisition.
--
EA/Mr. PV'd





--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

On 10/27/2009 5:44 PM Stormin Mormon spake thus:

Are you contributing to the moral decay of Usenet?

Well, Jay-sus, I hope so!


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

On 10/27/2009 3:28 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...

On 10/27/2009 2:45 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

Stylistically, I would capitalize Junta, Dictatorship, and Media.

Why? None of those are proper nouns. That's what I call "AOL-speak".

(I was a copy editor in another lifetime.)

Well, as you will.

It's called standard English.

fyi, I will be running for office under the Indpendent Party of the
Proctologically Violated (M)asses, so I could use a, uh, plug in yer sig.

As for experience, I am a founding member of ICNAL, the International
Consortium for the Neutering of All Lawyers, and President of the American
chapter, ANAL, Americans for the Neutering of All Lawyers.

I hope I have your support.

Sorry, no can do. Unlike most of the great ignorant Unwashed
Masses(R)(TM), I don't reflexively hate lawyers.

To paraphrase what they useta say when I was a younger pup: In legal
trouble? Call a hippie.


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

A pediatrician I know (doctor for children) tells me that
lead poisoning in kids is still a very real problem. Lead
free paint and plumbing is a very real advantage.

I figure that circuit boards are not likely to be eaten, or
much exposure to people. As such, that's plenty safe for my
life.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:50:31 -0500, Steve Barker

Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.

Nope - it's invaded electronics too - Most computers, TVs
etc in the
last 5 years are lead free - and a royal P.I.T.A. to repair
because of
it

makes sign of the pentagon
Go with Satan, my son from the dark side.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 10/27/2009 5:44 PM Stormin Mormon spake thus:

Are you contributing to the moral decay of Usenet?

Well, Jay-sus, I hope so!


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:38:08 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:12 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

esp. when you consider that many grounds are really crappy, often
using steel cables instead of copper.

Huh?

The neutral conductor in triplex is the same 1350 alloy of aluminum as
the phase conductors but it may be 2 sizes smaller assuming a fairly
large line/line load will be present.

Here, the neutral AND ground wires in house cable are copper, but I was
talking about from the weatherhead of the house out to the pole -- the
house
copper is attached to stranded steel support cable -- at least in my neck
of
the woods in NY. And then, from the pole to whereever, I don't know what
the ground/neutral is, but I suspect it continues as the steel tension
cable
for the other hot copper wires.

I've asked linemen, but these guys don't know -- I get a different answer
with each guy I ask.


I gave you the answer. The aerial drop triplex is alloy 1350 aluminum
... all 3 wires, along with virtually all aerial cable.
That is what the alloy was designed for.
It is also used in some aircraft construction.

Indeed, it does look like that twisted support/guy wire is aluminum!

So what is a 1350 alloy, visavis a 6061 alloy? Do you know the ohms per
foot of each, vs. that of copper?
--
EA