Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain
no more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain no
more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron

I would question what section of code he's making reference to

In article , "RBM" wrote:

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain no
more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron

I would question what section of code he's making reference to

Probably the part that says everything must be installed in accordance with
its listing -- and the panel is listed, and labelled, for only four circuits.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "RBM" wrote:
"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain no
more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron
I would question what section of code he's making reference to

Probably the part that says everything must be installed in accordance with
its listing -- and the panel is listed, and labelled, for only four circuits.

I can buy a panel that says 100amp (meaning 100amps) and has 20 circuits.

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "RBM"
wrote:
"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain
no more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron
I would question what section of code he's making reference to

Probably the part that says everything must be installed in accordance
with its listing -- and the panel is listed, and labelled, for only four
circuits.

I can buy a panel that says 100amp (meaning 100amps) and has 20
circuits.

As Doug points out, if the panel is listed for 4 circuits max, you wouldn't
be able to exceed that. Yes, you can buy a 20 circuit panel with 100 amp
buss, and even if they'll fit, you aren't allowed to install more than 20
circuits in it

On Sep 18, 11:53*am, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain
no more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron

The box will say how many circuits it can have. You can't go over
that. Take a walk down the lowes aisle with breaker boxes. They all
have a limit.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Sep 18, 11:53 am, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain
no more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron

The box will say how many circuits it can have. You can't go over
that. Take a walk down the lowes aisle with breaker boxes. They all
have a limit.

OK, I think I confused everyone.
My contractor tells me that I'm not allowed to install a panel that can
take more than 4 circuits. And I'm wondering what the rationale is for
that particular limitation.

In article , Aaron Fude wrote:

OK, I think I confused everyone.
My contractor tells me that I'm not allowed to install a panel that can
take more than 4 circuits. And I'm wondering what the rationale is for
that particular limitation.

One of several possibilities: you misunderstood the contractor; the contractor
misunderstands, or misstated, the rule; or there is some *local* rule limiting
the number of circuits in a subpanel. There is no such limit in the National
Electrical Code; the only limit under the NEC is the number of circuits that
the panel is identified for.

On Sep 18, 2:29*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Aaron Fude wrote:

OK, I think I confused everyone.
My contractor tells me that I'm not allowed to install a panel that can
take more than 4 circuits. And I'm wondering what the rationale is for
that particular limitation.

One of several possibilities: you misunderstood the contractor; the contractor
misunderstands, or misstated, the rule; or there is some *local* rule limiting
the number of circuits in a subpanel. There is no such limit in the National
Electrical Code; the only limit under the NEC is the number of circuits that
the panel is identified for.

But I think there are some rules related to the total of the amperage
of all the breakers in the box as it relates to the 30 amp feed, isn't
there? I know you can't just infinitely add breakers to a 30 amp
circuit.

There is also the rule about how many motions it taks to cut off all
the power but I thought that was 6 or 8, not 4? Unless there is a
local code that says 4 is the max. OP - this rule limits how many
breakers you can have in a box without putting a "main" breaker in the
box as well.

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain no
more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron

OK, it sounds like he is telling you that you can't feed a six circuit panel
with a 30 amp feeder, in which case, he would be mistaken. Depending upon
what you intended to feed with the panel, it may not be practical, and you
certainly don't want to overload the feeder and cause it's main to trip.

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain no
more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?


*I'd like to know all of the facts. What were you planning to feed out of
this 30 amp sub-panel?

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:50:55 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "RBM"
wrote:
"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain
no more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron
I would question what section of code he's making reference to

Probably the part that says everything must be installed in accordance
with its listing -- and the panel is listed, and labelled, for only four
circuits.

I can buy a panel that says 100amp (meaning 100amps) and has 20
circuits.

As Doug points out, if the panel is listed for 4 circuits max, you wouldn't
be able to exceed that. Yes, you can buy a 20 circuit panel with 100 amp
buss, and even if they'll fit, you aren't allowed to install more than 20
circuits in it

That's not the OP's question. His electrician, I think is saying
regardless WHAT panel he uses, if he feers it with a 10/3 protected at
30 amps he cannot put more than 4 circuits in - even IF he instala a
100 amp 20 circuit sub-panel.

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:53:00 -0400, Aaron Fude
wrote:

Hi,

I have a 30 amp subpanel fed by a 10/3 wire.

My electrician told me that the code stipulates that the panel contain
no more than 4 circuits.

Why such a limitation? Why can't I split 30 amps among 40 circuits if I
want to? Doesn't the 30amp breaker protect against overloading?

Thanks!

Aaron

Sometimes a separate circuit is recommended for various reasons. House
fan, freezer, hot tub, theater room, water heater, lighting, etc.
Never heard of a 4-circuit limitation, sounds rather "limited," but my
guess is the 10# wire and its length to main.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Sep 18, 2:29 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Aaron Fude wrote:

OK, I think I confused everyone.
My contractor tells me that I'm not allowed to install a panel that can
take more than 4 circuits. And I'm wondering what the rationale is for
that particular limitation.
One of several possibilities: you misunderstood the contractor; the contractor
misunderstands, or misstated, the rule; or there is some *local* rule limiting
the number of circuits in a subpanel. There is no such limit in the National
Electrical Code; the only limit under the NEC is the number of circuits that
the panel is identified for.

But I think there are some rules related to the total of the amperage
of all the breakers in the box as it relates to the 30 amp feed, isn't
there? I know you can't just infinitely add breakers to a 30 amp
circuit.

I agree with others that there is no limit. As gfretwell posted, for
commercial a receptacle counts 180VA which eventually gives you a limit.
Someone wire every receptacle in their house on a separate circuit - a
very large number of circuits.

There is also the rule about how many motions it taks to cut off all
the power but I thought that was 6 or 8, not 4?

A *service* can have up to 6 disconnects. (Actually there are additional
disconnects that do not count.)

Unless there is a
local code that says 4 is the max. OP - this rule limits how many
breakers you can have in a box without putting a "main" breaker in the
box as well.

Generally a panel has to have source overcurrent protection equal to or
less than the panel rating. A subpanel is normally protected at the
source of the feeder to the subpanel. In general you don't need an
additional main breaker in a subpanel.

--
bud--

On Sep 21, 12:34*am, bud-- wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Sep 18, 2:29 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Aaron Fude wrote:

OK, I think I confused everyone.
My contractor tells me that I'm not allowed to install a panel that can
take more than 4 circuits. And I'm wondering what the rationale is for
that particular limitation.
One of several possibilities: you misunderstood the contractor; the contractor
misunderstands, or misstated, the rule; or there is some *local* rule limiting
the number of circuits in a subpanel. There is no such limit in the National
Electrical Code; the only limit under the NEC is the number of circuits that
the panel is identified for.

But I think there are some rules related to the total of the amperage
of all the breakers in the box as it relates to the 30 amp feed, isn't
there? *I know you can't just infinitely add breakers to a 30 amp
circuit.

I agree with others that there is no limit. As gfretwell posted, for
commercial a receptacle counts 180VA which eventually gives you a limit.
Someone wire every receptacle in their house on a separate circuit - a
very large number of circuits.

There is also the rule about how many motions it taks to cut off all
the power but I thought that was 6 or 8, not 4?

A *service* can have up to 6 disconnects. (Actually there are additional
disconnects that do not count.)

Unless there is a
local code that says 4 is the max. *OP - this rule limits how many
breakers you can have in a box without putting a "main" breaker in the
box as well.

Generally a panel has to have source overcurrent protection equal to or
less than the panel rating. A subpanel is normally protected at the
source of the feeder to the subpanel. In general you don't need an
additional main breaker in a subpanel.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What disconnects do not count towards the 6 limit?

wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:59:39 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

Generally a panel has to have source overcurrent protection equal to or
less than the panel rating. A subpanel is normally protected at the
source of the feeder to the subpanel. In general you don't need an
additional main breaker in a subpanel.

What disconnects do not count towards the 6 limit?

From 230.71(A)

For the purpose of this section, disconnecting means installed as part
of listed equipment and used solely for the following shall not be
considered a service disconnecting means:
(1) Power monitoring equipment
(2) Surge-protective device(s)
(3) Control circuit of the ground-fault protection system
(4) Power-operable service disconnecting means

Also bear in mind there WAS an additional requirement that a "lighting
and appliance panelboard" (one mostly feeding branch circuits) have a
maximum of 2 disconnects and that WAS usually the practical limit for
most applications like that sub panel in your detached garage..
The 2008 code eliminated the classifications of panelboards and I
suppose that means a remote 6 breaker panel would comply with the 6
switch rule now.
It is a question that will probably get bounced around building
departments so you better ask the AHJ

As I read the code, the 2 disconnect exception (408.36) allows a split
bus panel. It can even be a subpanel. Do you have any idea why that is
still in the code? What do you use the 2nd disconnect for?

--
bud--

On Sep 22, 12:17*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:17:13 -0500, bud--
wrote:





wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:59:39 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

Generally a panel has to have source overcurrent protection equal to or
less than the panel rating. A subpanel is normally protected at the
source of the feeder to the subpanel. In general you don't need an
additional main breaker in a subpanel.

What disconnects do not count towards the 6 limit?

From 230.71(A)

For the purpose of this section, disconnecting means installed as part
of listed equipment and used solely for the following shall not be
considered a service disconnecting means: *
(1) * *Power monitoring equipment *
(2) * *Surge-protective device(s) *
(3) * *Control circuit of the ground-fault protection system *
(4) * *Power-operable service disconnecting means

Also bear in mind there WAS an additional requirement that a "lighting
and appliance panelboard" (one mostly feeding branch circuits) have a
maximum of 2 disconnects and that WAS usually the practical limit for
most applications like that sub panel in your detached garage..
The 2008 code eliminated the classifications of panelboards and I
suppose that means a remote 6 breaker panel would comply with the 6
switch rule now.
It is a question that will probably get bounced around building
departments so you better ask the AHJ

As I read the code, the 2 disconnect exception (408.36) allows a split
bus panel. It can even be a subpanel. Do you have any idea why that is
still in the code? What do you use the 2nd disconnect for?

I imagine you are right about the split bus panel.
Things languish in the code until someone changes them.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A bit of change in the subject but still in the area. I'm building a
garage. I'm running a 70amp circuit out to it and was hoping to avoid
having a main in the sub panel. The garage has living space above it
so it's going to be a bit tricky to meet the 6 limit. I was thinking
about ganging a couple of the lighting breakers. Will that trick work
to keep me under the 6? It's all about 6 hand movements, right?
Nothing to do with what's on the breakers. (That's also why I was
asking about the exceptions.)

jamesgangnc wrote:
....
A bit of change in the subject but still in the area. I'm building a
garage. I'm running a 70amp circuit out to it and was hoping to avoid
having a main in the sub panel. The garage has living space above it
so it's going to be a bit tricky to meet the 6 limit. I was thinking
about ganging a couple of the lighting breakers. Will that trick work
to keep me under the 6? It's all about 6 hand movements, right?
Nothing to do with what's on the breakers. (That's also why I was
asking about the exceptions.)

I don't follow what you precisely mean w/ "ganging a couple of the
lighting breakers."

It'll be the inspector who makes the call for your jurisdiction anyhow,
but I'd say not to be a cheapskate and put in a panel of adequate size
including some for the inevitable "wish I'da done that" growth. Only
place/reason I'd see for really trying to skrimp so closely would be if
this is purely for a very short term purpose such as an imminent-sale fixup.

--