I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?

Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?

Hmmm,
Another snake oil? I bet you took chemistry/physics in school.
There is no miracle in science.

In article , Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?

How does it work?

Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?

Well $100 bucks a year is a lot for the replacement cartridges
for a typical 4 person household.

Snake oil, pure and simple. Basically, there are only two types of water
softeners for household use: Reverse osmosis and ionic, using various salts,
such as sodium chloride. Don't waste your money.

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"Denrael" wrote in message
...
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative
to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any experience with
them? Thoughts?

Denrael wrote:

I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?


Sigh. Google on the words "snake oil".

The short version is that there are only two ways of reducing mineral content in
water, commonly known as water softening. One is ion exchange (i.e. "salt"), the
other is reverse osmosis.

Anything else, especially those systems with vague pseudoscientific words and
standards that have nothing to do with water softening ("NSF" as in National
SANITATION Foundation) is pure snake oil.

In article , wrote:
Denrael wrote:

I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?


Sigh. Google on the words "snake oil".

The short version is that there are only two ways of reducing mineral content in
water, commonly known as water softening. One is ion exchange (i.e. "salt"), the
other is reverse osmosis.

Anything else, especially those systems with vague pseudoscientific words and
standards that have nothing to do with water softening ("NSF" as in National
SANITATION Foundation) is pure snake oil.

I dunno -- did you look at their site? They claim it works by chelation --
which is at least theoretically possible. I wouldn't be quite so quick to
dismiss that. I am not a chemist, but I have had two years of college
chemistry, so I'm not completely ignorant of the subject. Chelation is a
well-known chemical phenomenon with numerous practical uses (for example, in
treating lead or mercury poisoning, by binding the metal ion in a soluble
form). It's at least possible in theory to soften hard water by chelating the
magnesium and calcium ions it contains, as they claim to do. I don't know if
it works in practice, but IMHO this should not be dismissed out of hand.
Perhaps there's a chemist or ChemE reading this who will chime in with an
opinion?

In article ,
Pen wrote:



Well $100 bucks a year is a lot for the replacement cartridges
for a typical 4 person household.

I'll say. $2.08 per month per person. And probably can't be purchased
with food stamps. That means drinking regular Joe one day per month
instead of latte. A hardship of nearly unfathomable proportion.

On Jul 7, 7:57*pm, Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. *Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?

To "soften" water is to remove calcium (among other things like iron)
from water, not calcium deposits from pipes, and that is commonly done
by one of two methods.

One method is ion exchange as done by a water softener. A water
softener exchanges either sodium ions (if using NaCl) or potassium
ions (if using KCl as a SALT SUBSTITUTE) for calcium (and other) ions
in the hard water. That's it, no ifs, no ands, no buts, and no sales
double talk. Simple chemistry and physics. Softening water is not
black magic. It is physics and chemistry with a side of mechanics. No
matter how hard sales people try (and want) to they can not violate
the laws of physics or change the nature of chemical actions and
reactions.

The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation,
but no simple filter will remove calcium. You would need a reverse
osmosis unit large enough to service your entire house. You would not
want to pay for that big an RO nor pay for the service and routine
maintenance it would require and RO water would be very aggressive in
your plumbing and it would waste a lot of water.

NO magnet(ic) gizmo or electronic gizmo or "conditioner" will soften
water but people waste their money on them EVERYDAY.

Check out this URL for one story a href="http://www.nmsr.org/
magnetic.htm" http://www.nmsr.org/magnetic.htm /a and there are
many more on the net if you Google.

Pick the right softener (not a box store brand), size it properly for
your water conditions and usage and the SFR of your plumbing, and get
a competent install and you should get 10-15 years of reliable
service.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing is that water treatment begins with a
comprehensive water test so you know what needs to be treated or
filtered out to get the quality water you want.

In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:
On Jul 7, 7:57=A0pm, Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. =A0Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?

To "soften" water is to remove calcium (among other things like iron)
from water, not calcium deposits from pipes, and that is commonly done
by one of two methods.

Please note that "commonly done by one of two methods" is not the same as
"cannot be done except by those two methods". Ion-exchange and RO are not the
only ways of softening water. A third method that is known to work is
distillation -- obviously impractical for a whole-house water softener, but it
*does* work.

One method is ion exchange as done by a water softener. A water
softener exchanges either sodium ions (if using NaCl) or potassium
ions (if using KCl as a SALT SUBSTITUTE) for calcium (and other) ions
in the hard water. That's it, no ifs, no ands, no buts, and no sales
double talk. Simple chemistry and physics. Softening water is not
black magic. It is physics and chemistry with a side of mechanics. No
matter how hard sales people try (and want) to they can not violate
the laws of physics or change the nature of chemical actions and
reactions.

The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation,
but no simple filter will remove calcium. You would need a reverse
osmosis unit large enough to service your entire house. You would not
want to pay for that big an RO nor pay for the service and routine
maintenance it would require and RO water would be very aggressive in
your plumbing and it would waste a lot of water.

NO magnet(ic) gizmo or electronic gizmo or "conditioner" will soften
water but people waste their money on them EVERYDAY.

NuvoH2O does not claim to use electronics or magnetism. They claim it works by
chelation, and their explanation at least passes a first-order sanity check.
Hopefully, a chemist or ChemE will join the thread at some point to offer
opinions more informed than mine, but, having had two years of college
chemistry, I believe that the chelation explanation is at least plausible.

On Jul 8, 10:17*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:

On Jul 7, 7:57=A0pm, Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. =A0Does anyone here have any
experience with them? Thoughts?

To "soften" water is to remove calcium (among other things like iron)
from water, not calcium deposits from pipes, and that is commonly done
by one of two methods.

Please note that "commonly done by one of two methods" is not the same as
"cannot be done except by those two methods". Ion-exchange and RO are not the
only ways of softening water. A third method that is known to work is
distillation -- obviously impractical for a whole-house water softener, but it
*does* work.





One method is ion exchange as done by a water softener. A water
softener exchanges either sodium ions (if using NaCl) or potassium
ions (if using KCl as a SALT SUBSTITUTE) for calcium (and other) ions
in the hard water. That's it, no ifs, no ands, no buts, and no sales
double talk. Simple chemistry and physics. Softening water is not
black magic. It is physics and chemistry with a side of mechanics. No
matter how hard sales people try (and want) to they can not violate
the laws of physics or change the nature of chemical actions and
reactions.

The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation,
but no simple filter will remove calcium. You would need a reverse
osmosis unit large enough to service your entire house. You would not
want to pay for that big an RO nor pay for the service and routine
maintenance it would require and RO water would be very aggressive in
your plumbing and it would waste a lot of water.

NO magnet(ic) gizmo or electronic gizmo or "conditioner" will soften
water but people waste their money on them EVERYDAY.

NuvoH2O does not claim to use electronics or magnetism. They claim it works by
chelation, and their explanation at least passes a first-order sanity check.
Hopefully, a chemist or ChemE will join the thread at some point to offer
opinions more informed than mine, but, having had two years of college
chemistry, I believe that the chelation explanation is at least plausible..

Doug,

If you'll re-read my post please note the line "The other is by a
filter and/or membrane technology or distillation" and the word
DISTILLATION.

Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard.

No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge,
released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use
in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has
provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water
provides.

When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but,
even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin
never figured out how to turn lead into gold.

In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:

If you'll re-read my post please note the line "The other is by a
filter and/or membrane technology or distillation" and the word
DISTILLATION.

Sorry, missed the word distillation there.

Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard.

Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions
could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and
stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened
the water?

If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods
other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work.

No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge,

I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water
softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn.

released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use
in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has
provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water
provides.

As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve
mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you.
But do you understand what chelation is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications:
"Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..."

When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but,
even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin
never figured out how to turn lead into gold.

Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method
by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods
claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the
standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least
superficially plausible.

On Jul 8, 12:08*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:



If you'll re-read my post please note the line "The other is by a
filter and/or membrane technology or distillation" and the word
DISTILLATION.

Sorry, missed the word distillation there.



Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard.

Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions
could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and
stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened
the water?

If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods
other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work.



No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge,

I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water
softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn.

released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use
in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has
provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water
provides.

As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve
mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you.
But do you understand what chelation is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications:
"Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..."

When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but,
even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin
never figured out how to turn lead into gold.

Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method
by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods
claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the
standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least
superficially plausible.

I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA wqa.org

In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:
On Jul 8, 12:08=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .=
com, justalurker justalurker wrote:

Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard.

Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions
could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and
stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened
the water?

If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods
other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work.



No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge,

I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water
softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn.

released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use
in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has
provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water
provides.

As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve
mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you.
But do you understand what chelation is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications:
"Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..."

When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but,
even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin
never figured out how to turn lead into gold.

Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method
by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods
claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the
standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least
superficially plausible.

I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA wqa.org

[Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.]

If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not
immediately obvious. Care to provide a link?

On Jul 8, 1:14*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:



On Jul 8, 12:08=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .=
com, justalurker justalurker wrote:
Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard.

Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions
could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and
stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened
the water?

If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods
other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work.

No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge,

I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water
softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn.

released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use
in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has
provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water
provides.

As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve
mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you.
But do you understand what chelation is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications:
"Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..."

When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but,
even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin
never figured out how to turn lead into gold.

Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method
by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods
claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the
standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least
superficially plausible.

I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA * wqa.org

[Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.]

If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not
immediately obvious. Care to provide a link?

I believe it says "soft water is less than 0 hardness".

When your conditioners can show that reading on a hardness test then
the water is soft.

On Jul 8, 1:14*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:



On Jul 8, 12:08=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .=
com, justalurker justalurker wrote:
Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard.

Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions
could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and
stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened
the water?

If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods
other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work.

No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge,

I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water
softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn.

released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use
in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has
provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water
provides.

As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve
mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you.
But do you understand what chelation is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications:
"Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..."

When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but,
even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin
never figured out how to turn lead into gold.

Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method
by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods
claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the
standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least
superficially plausible.

I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA * wqa.org

[Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.]

If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not
immediately obvious. Care to provide a link?

Correction... my previous post SHOULD have said "soft water is less
than 1 grain per gallon hardness"

In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:
On Jul 8, 1:14=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:



On Jul 8, 12:08=3DA0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
ps.=3D
com, justalurker justalurker wrote:
Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard.

Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions
could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and
stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened
the water?

If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods
other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work.

No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge,

I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water
softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn.

released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use
in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has
provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water
provides.

As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve
mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you.
But do you understand what chelation is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications:
"Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..."

When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but,
even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin
never figured out how to turn lead into gold.

Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method
by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods
claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the
standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least
superficially plausible.

I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA =A0 wqa.org

[Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.]

If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not
immediately obvious. Care to provide a link?

Correction... my previous post SHOULD have said "soft water is less
than 1 grain per gallon hardness"

That's *not* the same as "by definition ... removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard". So it seems that you did, in fact, invent a
definition of softening that necessarily excludes all methods except the ones
that you are willing to admit will work.

There's no immediately obvious reason why chelation would not work to soften
water, and in fact several immediately obvious reasons why it *could*. I
suggest you educate yourself on the subject; I've already provided you at
least one link.

On Jul 8, 5:38*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:



On Jul 8, 1:14=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:

On Jul 8, 12:08=3DA0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
ps.=3D
com, justalurker justalurker wrote:
Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard.

Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions
could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and
stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened
the water?

If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods
other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work.

No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge,

I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water
softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn.

released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use
in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has
provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water
provides.

As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve
mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you.
But do you understand what chelation is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications:
"Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..."

When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but,
even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin
never figured out how to turn lead into gold.

Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method
by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods
claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the
standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least
superficially plausible.

I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA =A0 wqa.org

[Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.]

If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not
immediately obvious. Care to provide a link?

Correction... my previous post SHOULD have said *"soft water is less
than 1 grain per gallon hardness"

That's *not* the same as "by definition ... removing the material in the water
that causes it to be hard". So it seems that you did, in fact, invent a
definition of softening that necessarily excludes all methods except the ones
that you are willing to admit will work.

There's no immediately obvious reason why chelation would not work to soften
water, and in fact several immediately obvious reasons why it *could*. I
suggest you educate yourself on the subject; I've already provided you at
least one link.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/hardwater.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_softening

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1031w.htm

http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/...uild/g1491.pdf

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...ater-softening