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NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an
alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? Hmmm, Another snake oil? I bet you took chemistry/physics in school. There is no miracle in science. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
In article , Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? How does it work? |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? Well $100 bucks a year is a lot for the replacement cartridges for a typical 4 person household. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
Snake oil, pure and simple. Basically, there are only two types of water
softeners for household use: Reverse osmosis and ionic, using various salts, such as sodium chloride. Don't waste your money. -- Walter www.rationality.net - "Denrael" wrote in message ... I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative to a larger brine based system. Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? Sigh. Google on the words "snake oil". The short version is that there are only two ways of reducing mineral content in water, commonly known as water softening. One is ion exchange (i.e. "salt"), the other is reverse osmosis. Anything else, especially those systems with vague pseudoscientific words and standards that have nothing to do with water softening ("NSF" as in National SANITATION Foundation) is pure snake oil. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
|
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
In article ,
Pen wrote: Well $100 bucks a year is a lot for the replacement cartridges for a typical 4 person household. I'll say. $2.08 per month per person. And probably can't be purchased with food stamps. That means drinking regular Joe one day per month instead of latte. A hardship of nearly unfathomable proportion. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
On Jul 7, 7:57*pm, Denrael wrote:
I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative to a larger brine based system. *Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? To "soften" water is to remove calcium (among other things like iron) from water, not calcium deposits from pipes, and that is commonly done by one of two methods. One method is ion exchange as done by a water softener. A water softener exchanges either sodium ions (if using NaCl) or potassium ions (if using KCl as a SALT SUBSTITUTE) for calcium (and other) ions in the hard water. That's it, no ifs, no ands, no buts, and no sales double talk. Simple chemistry and physics. Softening water is not black magic. It is physics and chemistry with a side of mechanics. No matter how hard sales people try (and want) to they can not violate the laws of physics or change the nature of chemical actions and reactions. The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation, but no simple filter will remove calcium. You would need a reverse osmosis unit large enough to service your entire house. You would not want to pay for that big an RO nor pay for the service and routine maintenance it would require and RO water would be very aggressive in your plumbing and it would waste a lot of water. NO magnet(ic) gizmo or electronic gizmo or "conditioner" will soften water but people waste their money on them EVERYDAY. Check out this URL for one story a href="http://www.nmsr.org/ magnetic.htm" http://www.nmsr.org/magnetic.htm /a and there are many more on the net if you Google. Pick the right softener (not a box store brand), size it properly for your water conditions and usage and the SFR of your plumbing, and get a competent install and you should get 10-15 years of reliable service. The MOST IMPORTANT thing is that water treatment begins with a comprehensive water test so you know what needs to be treated or filtered out to get the quality water you want. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:
On Jul 7, 7:57=A0pm, Denrael wrote: I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative to a larger brine based system. =A0Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? To "soften" water is to remove calcium (among other things like iron) from water, not calcium deposits from pipes, and that is commonly done by one of two methods. Please note that "commonly done by one of two methods" is not the same as "cannot be done except by those two methods". Ion-exchange and RO are not the only ways of softening water. A third method that is known to work is distillation -- obviously impractical for a whole-house water softener, but it *does* work. One method is ion exchange as done by a water softener. A water softener exchanges either sodium ions (if using NaCl) or potassium ions (if using KCl as a SALT SUBSTITUTE) for calcium (and other) ions in the hard water. That's it, no ifs, no ands, no buts, and no sales double talk. Simple chemistry and physics. Softening water is not black magic. It is physics and chemistry with a side of mechanics. No matter how hard sales people try (and want) to they can not violate the laws of physics or change the nature of chemical actions and reactions. The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation, but no simple filter will remove calcium. You would need a reverse osmosis unit large enough to service your entire house. You would not want to pay for that big an RO nor pay for the service and routine maintenance it would require and RO water would be very aggressive in your plumbing and it would waste a lot of water. NO magnet(ic) gizmo or electronic gizmo or "conditioner" will soften water but people waste their money on them EVERYDAY. NuvoH2O does not claim to use electronics or magnetism. They claim it works by chelation, and their explanation at least passes a first-order sanity check. Hopefully, a chemist or ChemE will join the thread at some point to offer opinions more informed than mine, but, having had two years of college chemistry, I believe that the chelation explanation is at least plausible. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
On Jul 8, 10:17*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote: On Jul 7, 7:57=A0pm, Denrael wrote: I've been looking at the NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener as an alternative to a larger brine based system. =A0Does anyone here have any experience with them? Thoughts? To "soften" water is to remove calcium (among other things like iron) from water, not calcium deposits from pipes, and that is commonly done by one of two methods. Please note that "commonly done by one of two methods" is not the same as "cannot be done except by those two methods". Ion-exchange and RO are not the only ways of softening water. A third method that is known to work is distillation -- obviously impractical for a whole-house water softener, but it *does* work. One method is ion exchange as done by a water softener. A water softener exchanges either sodium ions (if using NaCl) or potassium ions (if using KCl as a SALT SUBSTITUTE) for calcium (and other) ions in the hard water. That's it, no ifs, no ands, no buts, and no sales double talk. Simple chemistry and physics. Softening water is not black magic. It is physics and chemistry with a side of mechanics. No matter how hard sales people try (and want) to they can not violate the laws of physics or change the nature of chemical actions and reactions. The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation, but no simple filter will remove calcium. You would need a reverse osmosis unit large enough to service your entire house. You would not want to pay for that big an RO nor pay for the service and routine maintenance it would require and RO water would be very aggressive in your plumbing and it would waste a lot of water. NO magnet(ic) gizmo or electronic gizmo or "conditioner" will soften water but people waste their money on them EVERYDAY. NuvoH2O does not claim to use electronics or magnetism. They claim it works by chelation, and their explanation at least passes a first-order sanity check. Hopefully, a chemist or ChemE will join the thread at some point to offer opinions more informed than mine, but, having had two years of college chemistry, I believe that the chelation explanation is at least plausible.. Doug, If you'll re-read my post please note the line "The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation" and the word DISTILLATION. Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard. No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge, released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water provides. When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but, even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin never figured out how to turn lead into gold. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:
If you'll re-read my post please note the line "The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation" and the word DISTILLATION. Sorry, missed the word distillation there. Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard. Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened the water? If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work. No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge, I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn. released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water provides. As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you. But do you understand what chelation is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications: "Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..." When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but, even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin never figured out how to turn lead into gold. Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least superficially plausible. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
On Jul 8, 12:08*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote: If you'll re-read my post please note the line "The other is by a filter and/or membrane technology or distillation" and the word DISTILLATION. Sorry, missed the word distillation there. Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard. Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened the water? If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work. No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge, I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn. released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water provides. As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you. But do you understand what chelation is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications: "Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..." When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but, even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin never figured out how to turn lead into gold. Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least superficially plausible. I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA wqa.org |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:
On Jul 8, 12:08=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article .= com, justalurker justalurker wrote: Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard. Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened the water? If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work. No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge, I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn. released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water provides. As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you. But do you understand what chelation is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications: "Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..." When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but, even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin never figured out how to turn lead into gold. Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least superficially plausible. I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA wqa.org [Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.] If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not immediately obvious. Care to provide a link? |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
On Jul 8, 1:14*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote: On Jul 8, 12:08=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article .= com, justalurker justalurker wrote: Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard. Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened the water? If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work. No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge, I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn. released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water provides. As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you. But do you understand what chelation is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications: "Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..." When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but, even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin never figured out how to turn lead into gold. Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least superficially plausible. I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA * wqa.org [Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.] If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not immediately obvious. Care to provide a link? I believe it says "soft water is less than 0 hardness". When your conditioners can show that reading on a hardness test then the water is soft. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
On Jul 8, 1:14*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote: On Jul 8, 12:08=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article .= com, justalurker justalurker wrote: Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard. Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened the water? If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work. No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge, I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn. released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water provides. As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you. But do you understand what chelation is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications: "Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..." When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but, even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin never figured out how to turn lead into gold. Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least superficially plausible. I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA * wqa.org [Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.] If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not immediately obvious. Care to provide a link? Correction... my previous post SHOULD have said "soft water is less than 1 grain per gallon hardness" |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote:
On Jul 8, 1:14=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , justalurker justalurker wrote: On Jul 8, 12:08=3DA0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article = ps.=3D com, justalurker justalurker wrote: Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard. Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened the water? If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work. No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge, I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn. released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water provides. As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you. But do you understand what chelation is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications: "Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..." When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but, even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin never figured out how to turn lead into gold. Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least superficially plausible. I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA =A0 wqa.org [Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.] If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not immediately obvious. Care to provide a link? Correction... my previous post SHOULD have said "soft water is less than 1 grain per gallon hardness" That's *not* the same as "by definition ... removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard". So it seems that you did, in fact, invent a definition of softening that necessarily excludes all methods except the ones that you are willing to admit will work. There's no immediately obvious reason why chelation would not work to soften water, and in fact several immediately obvious reasons why it *could*. I suggest you educate yourself on the subject; I've already provided you at least one link. |
NuvoH2O Saltless Water Softener Experiences
On Jul 8, 5:38*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , justalurker justalurker wrote: On Jul 8, 1:14=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , justalurker justalurker wrote: On Jul 8, 12:08=3DA0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article = ps.=3D com, justalurker justalurker wrote: Softening water by definition is removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard. Would you agree that IF a method exists by which calcium and magnesium ions could be prevented from forming insoluble compounds such as the carbonates and stearates that form "soap scum", that method could be said to have softened the water? If not, then I think you've restricted the "definition" to exclude any methods other than the ones that you are sure are the only ones that work. No reputable third party chemist or physicist has, to my knowledge, I would suggest that perhaps your knowledge is incomplete; Google on "water softening by chelation". You may be surprised at what you learn. released a detailed study of the "conditioning" process in actual use in a residential installation where the "conditioned" water has provided ANY, let alone ALL, of the positive effects that soft water provides. As applies to the electronic or magnetic water "conditioners" that serve mainly to separate the consumer from his money, I certainly agree with you. But do you understand what chelation is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation Please note the phrase about half-way down the page, under Applications: "Chelators are used in chemical analysis, as water softeners, ..." When that happens I'll be interested in reading those studies but, even then, water "conditioning" is not softening water and Merlin never figured out how to turn lead into gold. Look, I'm not saying that the NuvoH2O works. I'm just saying that the method by which they _claim_ it works is (a) radically different from the methods claimed by other vendors of saltless water "conditioners", and (b) from the standpoint of one who's had some college training in chemistry, is at least superficially plausible. I didn't create the definition... look to the WQA =A0 wqa.org [Complete lack of response to any of the other points I raised is noted.] If the WQA has a definition of water softening on their web site, it's not immediately obvious. Care to provide a link? Correction... my previous post SHOULD have said *"soft water is less than 1 grain per gallon hardness" That's *not* the same as "by definition ... removing the material in the water that causes it to be hard". So it seems that you did, in fact, invent a definition of softening that necessarily excludes all methods except the ones that you are willing to admit will work. There's no immediately obvious reason why chelation would not work to soften water, and in fact several immediately obvious reasons why it *could*. I suggest you educate yourself on the subject; I've already provided you at least one link. http://www.chem1.com/CQ/hardwater.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_softening http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1031w.htm http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/...uild/g1491.pdf http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...ater-softening |
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