On Apr 15, 8:11*pm, " wrote:
Ive researched many professionally made Fiberglass/Concrete/Metal
underground storm shelters but the cost is prohibitive..usually well
over $3500.00 *. * Id like to sink some kind of a waterproof box that
would fit one adult ... approx. 3 feet into the ground , located in
the corner of my garage which currently is very sandy soil. *The box
would need to have a removable/swing down lid with *the top 6" of the
box above ground level. The top would need to be well secured from
within the box once the person is inside. *To ensure it remains water
proof, i would line the hole with a double layer of thick plastic
sheeting.

Ive tried doing a google search under 'Fiberglass Boxes' *and 'Cargo
Boxes' *and cannot find something suitable. *I have considered a thick
fiberglass auto cargo carrier if i could find one 6' long by 3'
wide . * Do you have any idea what I could use as a low cost
solution *? *Looking to get away with spending no more than a few
hundred dollars at most. Thanks much.

P.S. YES, ive considered a Coffin...but i dont want to go there !
(at least not just yet)

wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:11 pm, " wrote:
Ive researched many professionally made Fiberglass/Concrete/Metal
underground storm shelters but the cost is prohibitive..usually well
over $3500.00 . Id like to sink some kind of a waterproof box that
would fit one adult ... approx. 3 feet into the ground , located in
the corner of my garage which currently is very sandy soil. The box
would need to have a removable/swing down lid with the top 6" of the
box above ground level. The top would need to be well secured from
within the box once the person is inside. To ensure it remains water
proof, i would line the hole with a double layer of thick plastic
sheeting.

Ive tried doing a google search under 'Fiberglass Boxes' and 'Cargo
Boxes' and cannot find something suitable. I have considered a thick
fiberglass auto cargo carrier if i could find one 6' long by 3'
wide . Do you have any idea what I could use as a low cost
solution ? Looking to get away with spending no more than a few
hundred dollars at most. Thanks much.

P.S. YES, ive considered a Coffin...but i dont want to go there !
(at least not just yet)

sell your house and buy one with an early Cold War-era fallout shelter?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:11 pm, " wrote:
Ive researched many professionally made Fiberglass/Concrete/Metal
underground storm shelters but the cost is prohibitive..usually well
over $3500.00 . Id like to sink some kind of a waterproof box that
would fit one adult ... approx. 3 feet into the ground , located in
the corner of my garage which currently is very sandy soil. The box
would need to have a removable/swing down lid with the top 6" of the
box above ground level. The top would need to be well secured from
within the box once the person is inside. To ensure it remains water
proof, i would line the hole with a double layer of thick plastic
sheeting.

Ive tried doing a google search under 'Fiberglass Boxes' and 'Cargo
Boxes' and cannot find something suitable. I have considered a thick
fiberglass auto cargo carrier if i could find one 6' long by 3'
wide . Do you have any idea what I could use as a low cost
solution ? Looking to get away with spending no more than a few
hundred dollars at most. Thanks much.

P.S. YES, ive considered a Coffin...but i dont want to go there !
(at least not just yet)

What kind of "storm?" Refuge from a tornado is way different than safety
from a hurricane.

It's fairly easy to construct something the size of a closet in the corner
of the garage that will withstand anything a hurricane can throw at it
(except, maybe, rising water). I think these can even be reinforced
sufficiently to withstand a tornado.

In tornado country, a perfectly suitable shelter can be built by digging a
hole, covering it with plywood, and putting a layer of sod on top. No walls,
no waterproofing.

wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:11 pm, " wrote:
Ive researched many professionally made Fiberglass/Concrete/Metal
underground storm shelters but the cost is prohibitive..usually well
over $3500.00 . Id like to sink some kind of a waterproof box that
would fit one adult ... approx. 3 feet into the ground , located in
the corner of my garage which currently is very sandy soil.

Rather than a hole in the ground, how about a "safe room" above ground.
Cheaper, DIY, tornado proof. Look for the idea at www.polysteel.com

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:11 pm, " wrote:
Ive researched many professionally made Fiberglass/Concrete/Metal
underground storm shelters but the cost is prohibitive..usually well
over $3500.00 . Id like to sink some kind of a waterproof box that
would fit one adult ... approx. 3 feet into the ground , located in
the corner of my garage which currently is very sandy soil.

Rather than a hole in the ground, how about a "safe room" above ground.
Cheaper, DIY, tornado proof. Look for the idea at www.polysteel.com

Actually, an above ground shelter that can withstand a tornado is
generally a *lot* more expensive to build than an underground one. In
fact, the FEMA "taking shelter from the storm" publication shows by far
the cheapest and simplest which is a length of large diameter drain pipe
buried vertically in the ground with a ladder and a cover. My plan is to
bury a 20' cargo container ($1,500 or so), and weld a hatch and some
stairs into it.

"Pete C." wrote in message

Actually, an above ground shelter that can withstand a tornado is
generally a *lot* more expensive to build than an underground one. In
fact, the FEMA "taking shelter from the storm" publication shows by far
the cheapest and simplest which is a length of large diameter drain pipe
buried vertically in the ground with a ladder and a cover. My plan is to
bury a 20' cargo container ($1,500 or so), and weld a hatch and some
stairs into it.

It can be more expensive, but it does not have to be. Depends on what you
want for amenities and size. I'd rather be above ground after the storm
than below too. How long do you want to stay in that drain pipe with the
wife, kids and dog?

It rather go this route http://www.polysteel.com/saferooms2.htm

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message

Actually, an above ground shelter that can withstand a tornado is
generally a *lot* more expensive to build than an underground one. In
fact, the FEMA "taking shelter from the storm" publication shows by far
the cheapest and simplest which is a length of large diameter drain pipe
buried vertically in the ground with a ladder and a cover. My plan is to
bury a 20' cargo container ($1,500 or so), and weld a hatch and some
stairs into it.

It can be more expensive, but it does not have to be. Depends on what you
want for amenities and size. I'd rather be above ground after the storm
than below too. How long do you want to stay in that drain pipe with the
wife, kids and dog?

It rather go this route http://www.polysteel.com/saferooms2.htm

Well, I have no wife, kids or dog, just me and the cat, and as I noted,
my tornado bunker is going to be a 20' cargo container, which is 20' x
8' x 8'. I expect to have a desk, cot, power, network, etc. in said
bunker for proactive retreats under tornado watches to eliminate made
dashes at 1am.

I considered building a combination pantry / safe room next to my
kitchen where I have space, however it would cost substantially more
than my cargo container design, and that is 100% DIY for either.

On Apr 15, 11:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote:

Well, I have no wife, kids or dog, just me and the cat, and as I noted,
my tornado bunker is going to be a 20' cargo container, which is 20' x
8' x 8'. I expect to have a desk, cot, power, network, etc. in said
bunker for proactive retreats under tornado watches to eliminate made
dashes at 1am.

I considered building a combination pantry / safe room next to my
kitchen where I have space, however it would cost substantially more
than my cargo container design, and that is 100% DIY for either.

You wrote this in another post:
"I have plans on the drawing board for something similar where I'll
live
in my truck camper and keep a pretty complete metalworking shop in my
24' enclosed trailer when I go into "hermit mode" on some property I
own
as global civilization implodes due to the economic tidy bowl swirl."

Why not make that enclosed trailer out of a container and keep it on
the wheels? Build a bermed culvert, lined with whatever, and just
roll the thing in and tie it down. Think of it as a safe on wheels.

And lighten up a bit...life's too short.

R

Pete C. wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:11 pm, " wrote:
Ive researched many professionally made Fiberglass/Concrete/Metal
underground storm shelters but the cost is prohibitive..usually well
over $3500.00 . Id like to sink some kind of a waterproof box that
would fit one adult ... approx. 3 feet into the ground , located in
the corner of my garage which currently is very sandy soil.
Rather than a hole in the ground, how about a "safe room" above ground.
Cheaper, DIY, tornado proof. Look for the idea at www.polysteel.com

Actually, an above ground shelter that can withstand a tornado is
generally a *lot* more expensive to build than an underground one. In
fact, the FEMA "taking shelter from the storm" publication shows by far
the cheapest and simplest which is a length of large diameter drain pipe
buried vertically in the ground with a ladder and a cover. My plan is to
bury a 20' cargo container ($1,500 or so), and weld a hatch and some
stairs into it.

You going to dig that hole by hand? And how to get that box in the hole?

Lou

LouB wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:11 pm, " wrote:
Ive researched many professionally made Fiberglass/Concrete/Metal
underground storm shelters but the cost is prohibitive..usually well
over $3500.00 . Id like to sink some kind of a waterproof box that
would fit one adult ... approx. 3 feet into the ground , located in
the corner of my garage which currently is very sandy soil.
Rather than a hole in the ground, how about a "safe room" above ground.
Cheaper, DIY, tornado proof. Look for the idea at www.polysteel.com

Actually, an above ground shelter that can withstand a tornado is
generally a *lot* more expensive to build than an underground one. In
fact, the FEMA "taking shelter from the storm" publication shows by far
the cheapest and simplest which is a length of large diameter drain pipe
buried vertically in the ground with a ladder and a cover. My plan is to
bury a 20' cargo container ($1,500 or so), and weld a hatch and some
stairs into it.

You going to dig that hole by hand? And how to get that box in the hole?

Hell no, I'll rent a fairly large excavator (~200 size) for a weekend to
handle both tasks. A 20' container is only about 5,000#, well within the
lifting capacity of that size excavator. I've got both United Rentals
and Nations Rent within 15 miles so delivery/pickup costs won't be too
significant.

Pete C. wrote:

Actually, an above ground shelter that can withstand a tornado is
generally a *lot* more expensive to build than an underground one. In
fact, the FEMA "taking shelter from the storm" publication shows by
far the cheapest and simplest which is a length of large diameter
drain pipe buried vertically in the ground with a ladder and a cover.
My plan is to bury a 20' cargo container ($1,500 or so), and weld a
hatch and some stairs into it.

Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.

HeyBub wrote:
....
Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.

You've never seen results of an EF-5 tornado, then.

--

dpb wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
...
Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.

You've never seen results of an EF-5 tornado, then.

--

Hell, around here a good storm that doesn't even produce a tornado very
frequently knocks over the empty semitrailer that construction companies
park at their work sites as portable billboards. Quite common to drive
by after a good storm and see them on their sides.

Pete C. wrote:
dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.
You've never seen results of an EF-5 tornado, then.

--

Hell, around here a good storm that doesn't even produce a tornado very
frequently knocks over the empty semitrailer that construction companies
park at their work sites as portable billboards. Quite common to drive
by after a good storm and see them on their sides.

Oh, simple rollover is easy...I was speaking of real damage. One would
presume if it was intended as storm shelter usage it would have been
tied down so rollover wasn't much an issue.

We're in the king of the straight-line winds and t-storm country so know
that quite well....today and tomorrow are "wait and see" what develops"
days for at least isolated severe.

--

dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.

You've never seen results of an EF-5 tornado, then.

Well, sure, I've seen the damage. I've not seen amy damage done by an F5 to
a cargo container, though. The wind certainly is not going to rip apart a
container nor is anything airborne by said wind going to penetrate the
walls. A storm might tip it over - maybe even move it a few feet. I'd worry
more about the cat inside the container than what was going on outside.

In the alternative to a cargo container, how about a concrete septic tank
(which is designed to be buried)?

"Pete C." wrote:

I considered building a combination pantry / safe room next to my
kitchen where I have space, however it would cost substantially more
than my cargo container design, and that is 100% DIY for either.

I wouldn't worry about it. Tornadoes cause about 80 deaths a year in the US.
There are 465,000 deaths from tobacco use, 365,000 deaths from poor diet and
inactivity, 85,000 from alcohol, 26,000 from motor vehicle accidents, 21,000
homicides, and 7,600 deaths from aspirin. There are 365 deaths a year from bath
tubs (drowning and falls). -- Doug

Douglas Johnson wrote:
"Pete C." wrote:

I considered building a combination pantry / safe room next to my
kitchen where I have space, however it would cost substantially more
than my cargo container design, and that is 100% DIY for either.

I wouldn't worry about it. Tornadoes cause about 80 deaths a year in the US.
There are 465,000 deaths from tobacco use, 365,000 deaths from poor diet and
inactivity, 85,000 from alcohol, 26,000 from motor vehicle accidents, 21,000
homicides, and 7,600 deaths from aspirin. There are 365 deaths a year from bath
tubs (drowning and falls). -- Doug

Yabut some of those are accidents and some stupidity.
God helps those who help themselves is still true.
BUT most tornado victims are killed due to lack of warnings.

Lou

LouB wrote:
....
BUT most tornado victims are killed due to lack of warnings.

I'd recast that that _most_ are killed due to lack of paying attention
_and_acting_on_ warnings.

Some are missed entirely, of course, and some are quite short time but
most have adequate warning if are prepared and respond.

The "ignore the danger" thought is indicative of not living in a
high-risk area and been through one or cleaned up after nearby one.

--

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:53:58 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Actually, an above ground shelter that can withstand a tornado is
generally a *lot* more expensive to build than an underground one. In
fact, the FEMA "taking shelter from the storm" publication shows by
far the cheapest and simplest which is a length of large diameter
drain pipe buried vertically in the ground with a ladder and a cover.
My plan is to bury a 20' cargo container ($1,500 or so), and weld a
hatch and some stairs into it.

Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.

Have you seen tornado damage up close? Even tying it down with heavy
logging chain to burried anchors is no guarantee it will stay where
you put it - and no guarantee it will stay intact either.

HeyBub wrote:
dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.
You've never seen results of an EF-5 tornado, then.

Well, sure, I've seen the damage. I've not seen amy damage done by an F5 to
a cargo container, though. The wind certainly is not going to rip apart a
container nor is anything airborne by said wind going to penetrate the
walls. A storm might tip it over - maybe even move it a few feet. I'd worry
more about the cat inside the container than what was going on outside.

In the alternative to a cargo container, how about a concrete septic tank
(which is designed to be buried)?

I'm not sure what container you're thinking -- the storage containers
I'm thinking of will prevent most penetration certainly, I wouldn't go
so far as _no_ penetration or partial crushing. I'm trying to think if
there were any at Greensburg; can't recall one, specifically.

For the septic tank, unless it were reinforced which I don't think they
generally are, I don't believe they would be rated adequate although
certainly again it would stand up to a lot more than just ordinary
stick-frame construction.

I'd suggest looking at the Texas A&M site for construction guidelines;
they're about the most comprehensive I'm aware of.

We use the basement and hope it doesn't lift the entire house off...

What _can_ happen in the truly monsters is simply beyond comprehension
until one sees some of the results first hand.

At Greensburg a couple of the more incredible were a full-size
automobile deposited on the top of the courthouse (a 1900s three-story
structure w/ 10-ft ceilings high).

The second was a new JD STS 70-series combine was rolled/carried and
ended up almost eight miles from the dealership equipment lot from
whence it started. These puppies weigh 30-32,000 lb base weight w/o the
header. This one didn't have a header on it and was essentially nothing
but a rolled-up ball of green metal to look at afterwards. It was
several days before it was located it was so far from where anybody had
any thought of what might have happened to it.

--

dpb wrote:

The "ignore the danger" thought is indicative of not living in a
high-risk area and been through one or cleaned up after nearby one.

I live in Dallas, Texas, so it is medium high risk. I've carried out bodies
afterwards.

There are so many ways to get killed. One of them is guaranteed to get me. If
I worried about all the low probability risks, I'd be to busy to enjoy the time
I've got.

Tornados are a good example of how badly people think about risk. Like plane
crashes, they are spectacular events that are relatively rare, so they get lots
of press coverage. So people tend to thing of them as much riskier than they
are. The real high risks are those things that steadily and quietly kill some
people here and some there every day, such as heart attacks and cancer.

Don't smoke, eat well. Wear seat belts. Watch your weight and blood pressure.
I'd guess it is far more cost effective to invest in an automatic defibrillator
than a tornado shelter.

-- Doug

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:47:43 -0500, Douglas Johnson
wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

I considered building a combination pantry / safe room next to my
kitchen where I have space, however it would cost substantially more
than my cargo container design, and that is 100% DIY for either.

I wouldn't worry about it. Tornadoes cause about 80 deaths a year in the US.
There are 465,000 deaths from tobacco use, 365,000 deaths from poor diet and
inactivity, 85,000 from alcohol, 26,000 from motor vehicle accidents, 21,000
homicides, and 7,600 deaths from aspirin. There are 365 deaths a year from bath
tubs (drowning and falls). -- Doug

I might argue with your numbers for tobacco and diet but. . .

As long as you're scaring folks-I just saw this number last week and
it blew my mind- 195,000 deaths from medical errors in hospitals.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

That would make it the #3 cause of death on the CDC's list for 2005-
the latest I could find-
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/lcod.htm
[behind Heart disease @652K & cancer @559K, but ahead of Stroke at a
mere 143K]

Jim

Douglas Johnson wrote:
....
I'd guess it is far more cost effective to invest in an automatic defibrillator
than a tornado shelter.
....
And one might as well not bother to buy fire insurance, either. Odds
just aren't that good on collecting.

--

wrote:
....
... Even tying it down with heavy
logging chain to burried anchors is no guarantee it will stay where
you put it - and no guarantee it will stay intact either.

Oh, you could tie it down easily enough.

Penetration and integrity would depend on actual construction and
materials, primarily door connections, etc.

I'm just not sure what their actually built from to judge absolute
survivability. As noted above, Texas A&M has good data/guidelines on
structure requirements and building techniques.

The effects _can_ be designed for, it just takes far more for the truly
extreme event than most folks can comprehend.

--

dpb wrote:
wrote:
...
... Even tying it down with heavy
logging chain to burried anchors is no guarantee it will stay where
you put it - and no guarantee it will stay intact either.

Oh, you could tie it down easily enough.

Penetration and integrity would depend on actual construction and
materials, primarily door connections, etc.

A "standard" cargo containers is made from 1/4" reinforced steel plate,
weighs 8,800 pounds, holds up to 67,000 pounds of stuff, and is designed to
be stacked ten or more high.

Containers routinely sustain sixty foot waves moving at 30 knots (which has
got to pack more energy than air moving at 300 mph).

Douglas Johnson wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

I considered building a combination pantry / safe room next to my
kitchen where I have space, however it would cost substantially more
than my cargo container design, and that is 100% DIY for either.

I wouldn't worry about it. Tornadoes cause about 80 deaths a year in the US.
There are 465,000 deaths from tobacco use, 365,000 deaths from poor diet and
inactivity, 85,000 from alcohol, 26,000 from motor vehicle accidents, 21,000
homicides, and 7,600 deaths from aspirin. There are 365 deaths a year from bath
tubs (drowning and falls). -- Doug

Scale your other stats to match the population in tornado alley and they
might have some relevance.

dpb wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.
You've never seen results of an EF-5 tornado, then.

Well, sure, I've seen the damage. I've not seen amy damage done by an F5 to
a cargo container, though. The wind certainly is not going to rip apart a
container nor is anything airborne by said wind going to penetrate the
walls. A storm might tip it over - maybe even move it a few feet. I'd worry
more about the cat inside the container than what was going on outside.

In the alternative to a cargo container, how about a concrete septic tank
(which is designed to be buried)?

I'm not sure what container you're thinking -- the storage containers
I'm thinking of will prevent most penetration certainly, I wouldn't go
so far as _no_ penetration or partial crushing. I'm trying to think if
there were any at Greensburg; can't recall one, specifically.

For the septic tank, unless it were reinforced which I don't think they
generally are, I don't believe they would be rated adequate although
certainly again it would stand up to a lot more than just ordinary
stick-frame construction.

I'd suggest looking at the Texas A&M site for construction guidelines;
they're about the most comprehensive I'm aware of.

We use the basement and hope it doesn't lift the entire house off...

What _can_ happen in the truly monsters is simply beyond comprehension
until one sees some of the results first hand.

At Greensburg a couple of the more incredible were a full-size
automobile deposited on the top of the courthouse (a 1900s three-story
structure w/ 10-ft ceilings high).

The second was a new JD STS 70-series combine was rolled/carried and
ended up almost eight miles from the dealership equipment lot from
whence it started. These puppies weigh 30-32,000 lb base weight w/o the
header. This one didn't have a header on it and was essentially nothing
but a rolled-up ball of green metal to look at afterwards. It was
several days before it was located it was so far from where anybody had
any thought of what might have happened to it.

--

Yes, a cargo container *underground* will be safe from most any tornado
damage, as well as being plenty big for comfort.

Cargo container walls are fairly strong, however anyone familiar with
them has seen plenty with gouges and holes poked in them and 300 MPH
tornado propelled missiles will certainly penetrate unless you back that
sheetmetal with a foot of solid cement. Underground there are no tornado
missile threats.

HeyBub wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:
...
... Even tying it down with heavy
logging chain to burried anchors is no guarantee it will stay where
you put it - and no guarantee it will stay intact either.
Oh, you could tie it down easily enough.

Penetration and integrity would depend on actual construction and
materials, primarily door connections, etc.

A "standard" cargo containers is made from 1/4" reinforced steel plate,
weighs 8,800 pounds, holds up to 67,000 pounds of stuff, and is designed to
be stacked ten or more high.

Containers routinely sustain sixty foot waves moving at 30 knots (which has
got to pack more energy than air moving at 300 mph).

Not much would be likely to penetrate. I'm not sure what A&M uses as
their design requirement otomh. The one difference is the flying
pointy-sticks in the tornado environment not likely seen mid-ocean.
It's that high-velocity projectile that's the penetration danger and it
can have a fairly small cross-sectional area so is more dangerous than
the bigger stuff from that standpoint.

I do remember the 30,000-lb combine ending up 8 miles away at
Greensburg. That's 3X the weight in probably roughly same sail area.
What _can_ happen is indeed truly incredible.

--

wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:53:58 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Actually, an above ground shelter that can withstand a tornado is
generally a *lot* more expensive to build than an underground one. In
fact, the FEMA "taking shelter from the storm" publication shows by
far the cheapest and simplest which is a length of large diameter
drain pipe buried vertically in the ground with a ladder and a cover.
My plan is to bury a 20' cargo container ($1,500 or so), and weld a
hatch and some stairs into it.

Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.

Have you seen tornado damage up close? Even tying it down with heavy
logging chain to burried anchors is no guarantee it will stay where
you put it - and no guarantee it will stay intact either.

Apparently you missed the "bury" in my sentence above. A 5,000# cargo
container 9' underground and capped with a concrete patio aint' going
anywhere in a tornado.

dpb wrote:

wrote:
...
... Even tying it down with heavy
logging chain to burried anchors is no guarantee it will stay where
you put it - and no guarantee it will stay intact either.

Oh, you could tie it down easily enough.

Penetration and integrity would depend on actual construction and
materials, primarily door connections, etc.

I'm just not sure what their actually built from to judge absolute
survivability. As noted above, Texas A&M has good data/guidelines on
structure requirements and building techniques.

The effects _can_ be designed for, it just takes far more for the truly
extreme event than most folks can comprehend.

--

Penetration is not an issue, everyone seems to have missed that I am
going to *bury* the container.

The FEMA publication I noted was mostly produced with T A&M tornado lab
data.

HeyBub:

Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.

Not everyone lives where the weather is mild.

Here we suffer from hurricanes which bring the double threat of winds and
flooding so a buried container isn't safe unless it's watertight.

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:44:07 -0500, dpb wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.
You've never seen results of an EF-5 tornado, then.

Well, sure, I've seen the damage. I've not seen amy damage done by an F5 to
a cargo container, though. The wind certainly is not going to rip apart a
container nor is anything airborne by said wind going to penetrate the
walls. A storm might tip it over - maybe even move it a few feet. I'd worry
more about the cat inside the container than what was going on outside.

In the alternative to a cargo container, how about a concrete septic tank
(which is designed to be buried)?

I'm not sure what container you're thinking -- the storage containers
I'm thinking of will prevent most penetration certainly, I wouldn't go
so far as _no_ penetration or partial crushing. I'm trying to think if
there were any at Greensburg; can't recall one, specifically.

For the septic tank, unless it were reinforced which I don't think they
generally are, I don't believe they would be rated adequate although
certainly again it would stand up to a lot more than just ordinary
stick-frame construction.


I thuink they are - but you are brying it anyway - plenty strong
enough - like concrete house foundation.

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:50:01 -0500, dpb wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:
...
... Even tying it down with heavy
logging chain to burried anchors is no guarantee it will stay where
you put it - and no guarantee it will stay intact either.
Oh, you could tie it down easily enough.

Penetration and integrity would depend on actual construction and
materials, primarily door connections, etc.

A "standard" cargo containers is made from 1/4" reinforced steel plate,
weighs 8,800 pounds, holds up to 67,000 pounds of stuff, and is designed to
be stacked ten or more high.

Containers routinely sustain sixty foot waves moving at 30 knots (which has
got to pack more energy than air moving at 300 mph).

Not much would be likely to penetrate. I'm not sure what A&M uses as
their design requirement otomh. The one difference is the flying
pointy-sticks in the tornado environment not likely seen mid-ocean.
It's that high-velocity projectile that's the penetration danger and it
can have a fairly small cross-sectional area so is more dangerous than
the bigger stuff from that standpoint.

I do remember the 30,000-lb combine ending up 8 miles away at
Greensburg. That's 3X the weight in probably roughly same sail area.
What _can_ happen is indeed truly incredible.
I saw a picture of a 40 foot semi trailer spun in like a drill about
20 feet - with the cab still attached.
Miraculously, when removed, very little damage to the rear of the
trailer.
I have also personally seen
Wheat straw driven right through a hydro pole.
Pink fiberglass insulation half way through concrete bricks

dpb wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:
...
I'd guess it is far more cost effective to invest in an automatic defibrillator
than a tornado shelter.
...
And one might as well not bother to buy fire insurance, either. Odds
just aren't that good on collecting.

Actually, fire insurance is pretty cheap for what you are insuring because the
odds of collecting are low. Besides, it is required by mortgage companies and
is bundled with homeowner's insurance, which, at least for me, has paid off
pretty well.

But that's not my point. If you are going to spend money reducing your risk of
death, you should spend on the high risks, not the low ones. The risk of death
from heart attacks is about 5000 times that of tornadoes.
-- Doug

Mac Cool wrote:
HeyBub:

Why bury it? I doubt any storm could damage a cargo container.

Not everyone lives where the weather is mild.

Here we suffer from hurricanes which bring the double threat of winds and
flooding so a buried container isn't safe unless it's watertight.

Earth-berm it, and tie it down with steel beams bolted to telephone
poles stuck in the ground on both sides, like they do with trailers near
the 'beach' in Louisiana. Basically a prefab storm cellar, just above
ground. Put an 'L' berm in front of the door end. with the opening away
from the prevailing wind. Google the Army tech manual for mortar-attack
bunkers in forward areas- that is basically what you are looking for.
They do it with prefab concrete panels and sandbags, and half-bury it.

--
aem sends...

aem sends...

Douglas Johnson wrote:

dpb wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:
...
I'd guess it is far more cost effective to invest in an automatic defibrillator
than a tornado shelter.
...
And one might as well not bother to buy fire insurance, either. Odds
just aren't that good on collecting.

Actually, fire insurance is pretty cheap for what you are insuring because the
odds of collecting are low. Besides, it is required by mortgage companies and
is bundled with homeowner's insurance, which, at least for me, has paid off
pretty well.

But that's not my point. If you are going to spend money reducing your risk of
death, you should spend on the high risks, not the low ones. The risk of death
from heart attacks is about 5000 times that of tornadoes.

The problem is you are comparing the proverbial apples and oranges.
Heart attacks are a risk for the entire country, while tornadoes, while
technically possible anywhere, are primarily a risk in tornado alley.
Find the population of tornado alley and adjust your heart attack
numbers to that population and then you might have a valid comparison.

"Pete C." wrote:


Douglas Johnson wrote:

But that's not my point. If you are going to spend money reducing your risk of
death, you should spend on the high risks, not the low ones. The risk of death
from heart attacks is about 5000 times that of tornadoes.

The problem is you are comparing the proverbial apples and oranges.
Heart attacks are a risk for the entire country, while tornadoes, while
technically possible anywhere, are primarily a risk in tornado alley.
Find the population of tornado alley and adjust your heart attack
numbers to that population and then you might have a valid comparison.

Well, there are clusters for other risks, too. I agree tornado risks are higher
in "tornado alley". But if as little as 10% of the population lives in tornado
alley and all the tornados are in tornado alley, then heart attacks are still
500 times more likely than tornados.

Here http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nv...sr53_05acc.pdf is the National
Vital Statistics Report on Deaths in 2002. It includes numbers of deaths caused
by everything from malignant neoplasms (557,271) to accidental discharge of a
firearm (762). Tornados do not even make the list.

-- Doug