"Tom Horne" wrote in message
...
On Feb 12, 3:45 pm, "RonABC" wrote:
Tom Horne wrote:

This last statement is untrue. The code requires six inches of wire
in the box and extending at least three inches beyond the opening of
the box "for splices or the connection of luminaires (fixtures) or
devices." The code does not require that the conductors be that long
after the splices are made up and the devices installed.

I think you may be misreading what the code says and you are incorrectly
concluding that, after the splices are made, the length of conductor rule
no
longer applies. The requirements are under 300.14, and then it says:

"Exception: Conductors that are *NOT* (emphasis added by me) spliced or
terminated at the outlet, junction, or switch point shall not be required
to
comply with 300.14."

In other words, conductors that *ARE* spliced or terminated at the box do
have to comply with 300.14 even after they are spliced or terminated. Only
the unspliced or un-terminated-at-the-box conductors do not have to
comply.

Ron
I was not basing my position on the exception bout on the wording I
quoted in my reply. Two different boards of appeal that I know of
have come down in the same place. I know of no contrary formal
interpretation. I'll quote the whole section so that those without
ready access can follow the discussion.

"300.14 Length of Free Conductors at Outlets, Junctions, and Switch
Points.
At least 150 mm (6 in.) of free conductor, measured from the point in
the box where it emerges from its raceway or cable sheath, shall be
left at each outlet, junction, and switch point for splices or the
connection of luminaires (fixtures) or devices. Where the opening to
an outlet, junction, or switch point is less than 200 mm (8 in.) in
any dimension, each conductor shall be long enough to extend at least
75 mm (3 in.) outside the opening.

Exception: Conductors that are not spliced or terminated at the
outlet, junction, or switch point shall not be required to comply with
300.14."

My position, and the position of the Virginia state board of permit
appeals, is that the six inches of free conductors is required in
order to have enough wire to make the splices and connections during
make up and not forever afterward.

--
Tom Horne

That's all fine and well, but it would really be helpful if in the future,
you preface your replies to indicate that you're quoting some particular
entities interpretation of the NEC

On 2/13/2009 2:12 PM Steve Barker spake thus:

it's actually easier to pigtail than to stuff an outlet back in with
all 4 on IT.

I just did it both ways last night, and the pigtailing is far easier.

That could be true, and I'll take your word for it, but there's still
the problem of all the extra room needed for wirenuts. Might work fine
in a nice roomy 4x4 box, not so well in an existing duplex outlet box.


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

On Feb 10, 11:29*am, "RonABC" wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 10, 12:24 am, "RonABC" wrote:

Is it possible that the code allows two ground wires to be connected
to the one green grounding screw, but does not permit two wires per
screw for the white and black wires?
No, the grounds are bare so it is easy to twist them together in the
back of the box and cut one off short. Then you hook the remaining
wire over the single green screw and tighten it down.

I assume that you mean twist them together using a wire nut (such as a green
one with a hole in the center), since just twisting them together without
one doesn't meet the code.

Also, if the wire that is cut off short leaves it with less than 6 inches of
wire in the box, that would not meet the code requirements.

I read that as 'Twist bare ground wires together place the twisted
section under screw of the metal box and then use one of the wires to
connect to the duplex'.

Unless the outlet is being 'split' (For say an Edison circuit or to
switch one of the hots of the outlet) there is provision on a typical
duplex to terminate two white neutrals and two black live wires. Other
than that pigtail them. And yes I prefer a good quality duplex that
has those terminals that trap the stripped wire end under a metal
plate as screw is tightened down.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Tom Horne" wrote in message
...
On Feb 12, 3:45 pm, "RonABC" wrote:
Tom Horne wrote:

This last statement is untrue. The code requires six inches of wire
in the box and extending at least three inches beyond the opening of
the box "for splices or the connection of luminaires (fixtures) or
devices." The code does not require that the conductors be that long
after the splices are made up and the devices installed.

I think you may be misreading what the code says and you are incorrectly
concluding that, after the splices are made, the length of conductor rule
no
longer applies. The requirements are under 300.14, and then it says:

"Exception: Conductors that are *NOT* (emphasis added by me) spliced or
terminated at the outlet, junction, or switch point shall not be required
to
comply with 300.14."

In other words, conductors that *ARE* spliced or terminated at the box do
have to comply with 300.14 even after they are spliced or terminated.
Only
the unspliced or un-terminated-at-the-box conductors do not have to
comply.

Ron
I was not basing my position on the exception bout on the wording I
quoted in my reply. Two different boards of appeal that I know of
have come down in the same place. I know of no contrary formal
interpretation. I'll quote the whole section so that those without
ready access can follow the discussion.

"300.14 Length of Free Conductors at Outlets, Junctions, and Switch
Points.
At least 150 mm (6 in.) of free conductor, measured from the point in
the box where it emerges from its raceway or cable sheath, shall be
left at each outlet, junction, and switch point for splices or the
connection of luminaires (fixtures) or devices. Where the opening to
an outlet, junction, or switch point is less than 200 mm (8 in.) in
any dimension, each conductor shall be long enough to extend at least
75 mm (3 in.) outside the opening.

Exception: Conductors that are not spliced or terminated at the
outlet, junction, or switch point shall not be required to comply with
300.14."

My position, and the position of the Virginia state board of permit
appeals, is that the six inches of free conductors is required in
order to have enough wire to make the splices and connections during
make up and not forever afterward.

--
Tom Horne

That's all fine and well, but it would really be helpful if in the future,
you preface your replies to indicate that you're quoting some particular
entities interpretation of the NEC

And furthermore, what business does the state of Virginia, or any other
state, have to interpret National Electric Code? They have the right to use
it, or not, they can make their own code if they choose, but the NFPA, the
people who write the NEC, have panels of their own, who you can write to, to
have any section of code interpreted. How arrogant that would be for someone
to believe that they can interpret something better than it's author.

A common practice with conduit wiring is to leave the wires intact
running through to box, leaving enough slack to meet wiring
requirements. Then just strip enough insulation to wrap around the
screw terminal. Conceivably, this practice could be used with NM cable,
but it would require a lot of effort during the cable run process.

In article ,
Kevin Ricks wrote:

I prefer back feed type outlets which will take as many as 4 wires on
each side. Not as good as using pigtails but better and much easier
than wrapping wires around screws.

On occasion I will feed 2+ outlets or switches with a single wire. I
strip enough insulation off to wrap around a screw then continue the
same wire to the next outlet/switch.

Kevin



Hi! What's a "back feed type outlet"?


Thanks!

David

In article ,
wrote:
On Feb 10, 12:24*am, "RonABC" wrote:
*So, wouldn't it be easier if the receptacle had 6 screws? -- two
for the two black wires, two for the two white wires, and two for the two
ground wires?

Is it possible that the code allows two ground wires to be connected to the
one green grounding screw, but does not permit two wires per screw for the
white and black wires?

No, the grounds are bare so it is easy to twist them together in the
back of the box and cut one off short. Then you hook the remaining
wire over the single green screw and tighten it down.

For fixtures where you "need" to connect two wires to a single screw,
take a short length of same-colored wire and bug it on to the two
wires as a pigtail using a crimped Buchanan connector or a wire nut.

Are you saying that when you need to connect two wires to a
screw, what you do is pigtail THREE wires together, and then
that third wire, the new, short one, and hook THAT one to the screw?

Thanks,

David

David Combs wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Feb 10, 12:24 am, "RonABC" wrote:
So, wouldn't it be easier if the receptacle had 6 screws? -- two
for the two black wires, two for the two white wires, and two for the two
ground wires?

Is it possible that the code allows two ground wires to be connected to the
one green grounding screw, but does not permit two wires per screw for the
white and black wires?
No, the grounds are bare so it is easy to twist them together in the
back of the box and cut one off short. Then you hook the remaining
wire over the single green screw and tighten it down.

For fixtures where you "need" to connect two wires to a single screw,
take a short length of same-colored wire and bug it on to the two
wires as a pigtail using a crimped Buchanan connector or a wire nut.

Are you saying that when you need to connect two wires to a
screw, what you do is pigtail THREE wires together, and then
that third wire, the new, short one, and hook THAT one to the screw?

Thanks,

David



Exactly, you got it. and if the box happens to serve two directions
then you have four in the nut counting the pigtail.

steve

I have heard of "back stab" outlets. Perhaps that's the
term we're seeking?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Combs" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Kevin Ricks wrote:

I prefer back feed type outlets which will take as many as
4 wires on

Kevin



Hi! What's a "back feed type outlet"?


Thanks!

David

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I have heard of "back stab" outlets. Perhaps that's the
term we're seeking?

Why is it that you don't believe the many people who have very clearly
explained the problems with your sig line, and your top-posting? Poster
A made a statement. Poster B asked for a definition of a term. Then
along you come and top-post. Now, where would I reply to your post, so
that the posts follow one another in logical, sequential order? And how
would I do it, since your sig line is ****ed up?

No. Back stab and back feed are two different animals. We go over this
at least once a month.

A backfeed outlet has holes in the back. You strip the wire and "stab"
it into the hole. It has spring clips inside that grab the wire.

They save a lot of time because you just strip and stab. But many
professional electricians won't use the backstab method because over
time the copper clips heat up and create a bad connection. Once they
start heating up the extra resistance creates even more heat until the
connection fails. Most common symptom of this is intermittent
operation. Backstabbing has a much higher failure rate than wire
wrapping around the screws.

It's a shortcut that can bite you down the road.


Hi! What's a "back feed type outlet"?


Thanks!

David

In article ,
Rick-Meister wrote:

A backfeed outlet has holes in the back. You strip the wire and "stab"
it into the hole. It has spring clips inside that grab the wire.

They save a lot of time because you just strip and stab. But many
professional electricians won't use the backstab method because over
time the copper clips heat up and create a bad connection. Once they
start heating up the extra resistance creates even more heat until the
connection fails. Most common symptom of this is intermittent
operation. Backstabbing has a much higher failure rate than wire
wrapping around the screws.

It's a shortcut that can bite you down the road.




Arrghh. A back feed outlet has holes in the back, but it does not have
springs. It has screw driven clamps.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Rick-Meister wrote:

A backfeed outlet has holes in the back. You strip the wire and "stab"
it into the hole. It has spring clips inside that grab the wire.

They save a lot of time because you just strip and stab. But many
professional electricians won't use the backstab method because over
time the copper clips heat up and create a bad connection. Once they
start heating up the extra resistance creates even more heat until the
connection fails. Most common symptom of this is intermittent
operation. Backstabbing has a much higher failure rate than wire
wrapping around the screws.

It's a shortcut that can bite you down the road.



Arrghh. A back feed outlet has holes in the back, but it does not have
springs. It has screw driven clamps.

And those are the type I prefer for stranded
wire. You don't have to crimp a forked connector
onto the wire to hook it to the outlet.

TDD

On Feb 14, 12:23*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/13/2009 2:12 PM Steve Barker spake thus:

it's actually easier to pigtail than to stuff an outlet back in with
all 4 on IT.

I just did it both ways last night, and the pigtailing is far easier.

That could be true, and I'll take your word for it, but there's still
the problem of all the extra room needed for wirenuts. Might work fine
in a nice roomy 4x4 box, not so well in an existing duplex outlet box.



Might work fine
in a nice roomy 4x4 box, not so well in an existing duplex outlet box.


I think if you do the "fill calc" (unless I did them wrong) many
duplex outlet boxes are undersized for a lot of multiple wire
situations

cheers
Bob

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:08:16 -0700, "RJ" wrote:


A backfeed outlet has holes in the back. You strip the wire and "stab"
it into the hole. It has spring clips inside that grab the wire.

They save a lot of time because you just strip and stab. But many
professional electricians won't use the backstab method because over
time the copper clips heat up and create a bad connection. Once they
start heating up the extra resistance creates even more heat until the
connection fails. Most common symptom of this is intermittent
operation. Backstabbing has a much higher failure rate than wire
wrapping around the screws.

It's a shortcut that can bite you down the road.

And yet, they're UL approved. !

What other dangerous products does UL approve ?

Aluminum wiring, Urea Formaldehyde insulation, ventless propane space
heaters,to name a few, have all at one time or other been approved.