Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:04:30 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc


* Well initial cost is more
* Operating expense is less
* Lifetime expense should be less
* Some inconvenience
* Possible reduced resale value. People tend not to like
something they are not familiar with when buying a home.

So for me, it would be a matter of the trade off of reduced life
cost vs possible inconvenience. In my household there is little
chance for the inconvenience so it should be a go. But when it comes
time for a replacement of my water heater, I am going to guess I will
pick a standard model. Not logical, but I am just not all that sure
of them.

Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.


"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the house..."

Huh?

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:04:30 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc


I would get a tank unless you are really pressed for space. The
tankless are more expensive and I don't see any long-term energy
savings. A teen counts as two people using hot water.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.


"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the house..."

Huh?

The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. This placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. *If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc

On Jan 30, 6:04*am, "Joe" wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? *Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). *What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. *I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

I have tankless and am happy. But with tankless savings drop way off
on multiple continous users, maybe you save 5%, but you will need the
biggest most expensive 200,000 btu unit for 4. That means a big gas
pipe. You would first need your line tested to see if it will give you
the flow you need. In winter when all gas apliances in your house are
on and pressure is lower you might have to do extra work to get that
extra 200,000 btu you will need for colder winter water. AO Smith
Vertex is maybe one of the most efficent Tanks of about 83 EF. For
single-2 people use, vacation homes tankless are great but with 4 you
need to research it and would possibly not like the drawbacks. A big
tankless might cost alot for the gas line needed. A condensing Vertex
is as efficent as most tankless at 82-83 E.F. I think, Its High
recovery but it costs $

On Jan 30, 8:14�am, "Joe" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...



Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? �Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). �What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. �I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.

"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the house...."

Huh?

The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. �This placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. �*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. �The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

electric tankless for large family? live where it gets cold in
winter?

just figure on a MAJOR elecrical upgrade 200AMPS just to heat water,
plus 200 amps for your existing service.......

the electrical upgrade will cost thousands

all the bwater heated MUST be heated instaneously, that takes a lot of
current.

since electrical water heating is 100% efficent less just minimal tank
standby losses you will never save any money.;

had a friend price a electrical tankless 5 grand for install.

the vent line is a minor issue...


your power company should be asked they may need to upgrade lines and
or transformer in your area....

were you trying to save energy / money or desiring unlimited hot
water?

On Jan 30, 8:14�am, "Joe" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...



Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? �Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). �What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. �I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.

"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the house...."

Huh?

The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. �This placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. �*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. �The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

rereading your post so you heat water with electric? and are thinking
of converting to natural gas? first get yur chimney inspected.

gas tankless have a myriad of downsides. the forced vent tankless mean
no hot water if electric fails, none in tank since theres no tank.
electric needed to run power vent

On Jan 30, 7:52*am, " wrote:
On Jan 30, 8:14 am, "Joe" wrote:





"HeyBub" wrote in message

om...

Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.

"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the house...."

Huh?

The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. This placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. *If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

electric tankless for large family? live where it gets cold in
winter?

just figure on a MAJOR elecrical upgrade 200AMPS just to heat water,
plus 200 amps for your existing service.......

the electrical upgrade will cost thousands

all the bwater heated MUST be heated instaneously, that takes a lot of
current.

since electrical water heating is 100% efficent less just minimal tank
standby losses you will never save any money.;

had a friend price a electrical tankless 5 grand for install.

the vent line is a minor issue...

your power company should be asked they may need to upgrade lines and
or transformer in your area....

were you trying to save energy / money or desiring unlimited hot
water?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought he said Ng, Tankless electric 4 people 3.5 bath might be 2
Bosch electric tankless and need 240a and cost like you said 5000. The
electric co would love you.

The tank electric water heater *I'm replacing* is larger than any
tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. ?This placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. ?*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. ?The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

electric tankless for large family? live where it gets cold in
winter?

nooo, i'm replacing an *electric* hwh with either a gas tank hwh *or* a gas
tankless hwh.



just figure on a MAJOR elecrical upgrade 200AMPS just to heat water,
plus 200 amps for your existing service.......

the electrical upgrade will cost thousands

all the bwater heated MUST be heated instaneously, that takes a lot of
current.

since electrical water heating is 100% efficent less just minimal tank
standby losses you will never save any money.;

had a friend price a electrical tankless 5 grand for install.

the vent line is a minor issue...


your power company should be asked they may need to upgrade lines and
or transformer in your area....

were you trying to save energy / money or desiring unlimited hot
water?

wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 8:14?am, "Joe" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...



Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? ?Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). ?What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. ?I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.

"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the
house..."

Huh?

The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. ?This placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. ?*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. ?The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

rereading your post so you heat water with electric? and are thinking
of converting to natural gas? first get yur chimney inspected.

gas tankless have a myriad of downsides. the forced vent tankless mean
no hot water if electric fails, none in tank since theres no tank.
electric needed to run power vent

I didn't say it would be forced tankless. it would be direct tankless, or
power vent tank. I understand that if the power went out with a powervent
tank, i wouldn't have hw beyond what was in the tank, but if power is out
long enough to allow the water to cool down, i've other problems. Plus, i
probably won't be taking a shower in the dark, so i'm considering that point
moot.

thanks,

jc

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 6:04 am, "Joe" wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k
to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model
require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but
I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

I have tankless and am happy. But with tankless savings drop way off
on multiple continous users, maybe you save 5%, but you will need the
biggest most expensive 200,000 btu unit for 4. That means a big gas
pipe. You would first need your line tested to see if it will give you
the flow you need. In winter when all gas apliances in your house are
on and pressure is lower you might have to do extra work to get that
extra 200,000 btu you will need for colder winter water. AO Smith
Vertex is maybe one of the most efficent Tanks of about 83 EF. For
single-2 people use, vacation homes tankless are great but with 4 you
need to research it and would possibly not like the drawbacks. A big
tankless might cost alot for the gas line needed. A condensing Vertex
is as efficent as most tankless at 82-83 E.F. I think, Its High
recovery but it costs $
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I just bought one. Haven't installed it yet as I need to do some
plumbing rearranging due to a bathroom remodel above where it will go. Specs
are great. Will have to upgrade the gas line from the 1/2 inch the old water
heater uses to 3/4 inch because the tank has 100,000 BTU input.

On Jan 30, 8:21*am, "EXT" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jan 30, 6:04 am, "Joe" wrote:





Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k
to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model
require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but
I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

I have tankless and am happy. But with tankless savings drop way off
on multiple continous users, maybe you save 5%, but you will need the
biggest most expensive 200,000 btu unit for 4. That means a big gas
pipe. You would first need your line tested to see if it will give you
the flow you need. In winter when all gas apliances in your house are
on and pressure is lower you might have to do extra work to get that
extra 200,000 btu you will need for colder winter water. AO Smith
Vertex is maybe one of the most efficent Tanks of about 83 EF. For
single-2 people use, vacation homes tankless are great but with 4 you
need to research it and would possibly not like the drawbacks. A big
tankless might cost alot for the gas line needed. A condensing Vertex
is as efficent as most tankless at 82-83 E.F. I think, Its High
recovery but it costs $
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-----------------
Yeah, I just bought one. Haven't installed it yet as I need to do some
plumbing rearranging due to a bathroom remodel above where it will go. Specs
are great. Will have to upgrade the gas line from the 1/2 inch the old water
heater uses to 3/4 inch because the tank has 100,000 BTU input.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Only 100,000 input, what brand , my 117000 input Bosch I thought was
the smallest and it wont do 2 showers at once unless ground water temp
stays near 70f. Ng Pipe size is dependant on length and testing. I
needed 3/4 at maybe 10 ft. One inch is possibly needed on a long run.
When my furnace kicks on I measure a maybe 1-3 degree drop in temp.
You must test and figure in low winter pressures.

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 8:21 am, "EXT" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jan 30, 6:04 am, "Joe" wrote:





Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k
to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model
require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but
I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

I have tankless and am happy. But with tankless savings drop way off
on multiple continous users, maybe you save 5%, but you will need the
biggest most expensive 200,000 btu unit for 4. That means a big gas
pipe. You would first need your line tested to see if it will give you
the flow you need. In winter when all gas apliances in your house are
on and pressure is lower you might have to do extra work to get that
extra 200,000 btu you will need for colder winter water. AO Smith
Vertex is maybe one of the most efficent Tanks of about 83 EF. For
single-2 people use, vacation homes tankless are great but with 4 you
need to research it and would possibly not like the drawbacks. A big
tankless might cost alot for the gas line needed. A condensing Vertex
is as efficent as most tankless at 82-83 E.F. I think, Its High
recovery but it costs $
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-----------------
Yeah, I just bought one. Haven't installed it yet as I need to do some
plumbing rearranging due to a bathroom remodel above where it will go.
Specs
are great. Will have to upgrade the gas line from the 1/2 inch the old
water
heater uses to 3/4 inch because the tank has 100,000 BTU input.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Only 100,000 input, what brand , my 117000 input Bosch I thought was
the smallest and it wont do 2 showers at once unless ground water temp
stays near 70f. Ng Pipe size is dependant on length and testing. I
needed 3/4 at maybe 10 ft. One inch is possibly needed on a long run.
When my furnace kicks on I measure a maybe 1-3 degree drop in temp.
You must test and figure in low winter pressures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you talking tankless or tank water heaters.

I just purchased an A.O. Smith "Vertex" tank water heater. They come in two
models, the economy GPHE-50 at 76,000 BTU and the one that I have is the
GDHE-50 at 100,000 BTU input to replace my old rental at 36,000 BTU. They
claim that it can deliver 164 gallons of hot water per hour at a 90 degree
temperature raise. It won't need to come close to that to satisfy my needs.

On Jan 30, 8:50*am, "EXT" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jan 30, 8:21 am, "EXT" wrote:





"ransley" wrote in message

....
On Jan 30, 6:04 am, "Joe" wrote:

Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k
to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model
require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but
I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

I have tankless and am happy. But with tankless savings drop way off
on multiple continous users, maybe you save 5%, but you will need the
biggest most expensive 200,000 btu unit for 4. That means a big gas
pipe. You would first need your line tested to see if it will give you
the flow you need. In winter when all gas apliances in your house are
on and pressure is lower you might have to do extra work to get that
extra 200,000 btu you will need for colder winter water. AO Smith
Vertex is maybe one of the most efficent Tanks of about 83 EF. For
single-2 people use, vacation homes tankless are great but with 4 you
need to research it and would possibly not like the drawbacks. A big
tankless might cost alot for the gas line needed. A condensing Vertex
is as efficent as most tankless at 82-83 E.F. I think, Its High
recovery but it costs $
---------------------------------------------------------------------------**-----------------
Yeah, I just bought one. Haven't installed it yet as I need to do some
plumbing rearranging due to a bathroom remodel above where it will go.
Specs
are great. Will have to upgrade the gas line from the 1/2 inch the old
water
heater uses to 3/4 inch because the tank has 100,000 BTU input.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Only 100,000 input, what brand , my 117000 input Bosch I thought was
the smallest and it wont do 2 showers at once unless ground water temp
stays near 70f. Ng Pipe size is dependant on length and testing. I
needed 3/4 at maybe 10 ft. One inch is possibly needed on a long run.
When my furnace kicks on I measure a maybe 1-3 degree drop in temp.
You must test and figure in low winter pressures.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-----------------
Are you talking tankless or tank water heaters.

I just purchased an A.O. Smith "Vertex" tank water heater. They come in two
models, the economy GPHE-50 at 76,000 BTU and the one that I have is the
GDHE-50 at 100,000 BTU input to replace my old rental at 36,000 BTU. They
claim that it can deliver 164 gallons of hot water per hour at a 90 degree
temperature raise. It won't need to come close to that to satisfy my needs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh Tank I thought you meant tankless, I have an AO Cyclone tank
condensing unit in an apt, no issues for 12 years. Does the Vertex
have a clean out panel on the water tank. Mine need the muffler its so
loud. The Vertex is tops.

"Joe" wrote in message . ..
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

Tankless is the way to go. It's the future. I've never known anyone
who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the
decision.

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it,
and no waste of energy when you don't. The claim that they don't
save much energy is a crock of ****, as you'll realize the first time
you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the
water heater.

On Jan 30, 10:06*am, wrote:
"Joe" wrote in ds.net...
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? *Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). *What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. *I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

Tankless is the way to go. *It's the future. *I've never known anyone
who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the
decision.

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it,
and no waste of energy when you don't. *The claim that they don't
save much energy is a crock of ****, as you'll realize the first time
you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the
water heater.

Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? A dollar? My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, is
maybe $20. That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.

wrote in message ...
On Jan 30, 10:06 am, wrote:
"Joe" wrote in ds.net...
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

Tankless is the way to go. It's the future. I've never known anyone
who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the
decision.

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it,
and no waste of energy when you don't. The claim that they don't
save much energy is a crock of ****, as you'll realize the first time
you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the
water heater.

Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? A dollar? My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, is
maybe $20. That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.
_____________

Do you shower in the dark?

As for small draw problems, this was addressed years ago by most
manufacturers. One may still run into it on very cheap units.

On Jan 30, 9:06*am, wrote:
"Joe" wrote in ds.net...
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? *Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). *What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. *I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

Tankless is the way to go. *It's the future. *I've never known anyone
who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the
decision.

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it,
and no waste of energy when you don't. *The claim that they don't
save much energy is a crock of ****, as you'll realize the first time
you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the
water heater.

Many are unhappy because they dont test gas supply with competing
apliances on and factor winters reduced gas flow. I have one and am
happy mine was under 500, sure you save but not as much with a big
family. Figure with a big unit you could spend 1500-3000 for tankless.
Now you weigh in payback at 15-3000, the game changes. At $500 its no
question I won with 4-5 yr payback. Its not for all but should be with
a big Gov credit, like 80% of unit price, after all we give billions
to just Mid East countries that hate us.

On Jan 30, 7:04*am, "Joe" wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? *Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

Definitely tank. At least 50 gallon, maybe 60.

A single tankless heater just won't be able to keep up with the demand
of up to three showers plus someone in the kitchen. You know it'll
happen.

wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 7:04 am, "Joe" wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

Definitely tank. At least 50 gallon, maybe 60.

A single tankless heater just won't be able to keep up with the demand
of up to three showers plus someone in the kitchen. You know it'll
happen.

yeah....sigh it probably will eventually, when the kids are a little
older.

Any truth to the axiom that you can go down 2 sizes when moving from
electric to gas hwh's due to better recovery time? eg: currently an
80gallon electric, go to 50 gallon gas.

jc

"Joe" wrote in message
. ..
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k
to $1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model
require? the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with
gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

Answers: yes, no, definitely, and maybe. They take some hefty wiring to
run, increasing initial costs, and maybe requiring you to have a heavier
service put in. In places where the kitchen or bath is remote, they do good
since it takes so much water to prime the lines from the main water heater
that a lot is wasted. Good in places such as a small sink where a lot of
water is not needed, and they don't keep water hot while you're away.
Start by checking power requirements of the units you may need and see if
your electrical service will even handle it without some costly upgrades.
From there, the questions only start.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
. ..
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k
to $1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model
require? the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with
gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

Answers: yes, no, definitely, and maybe. They take some hefty wiring to
run, increasing initial costs, and maybe requiring you to have a heavier
service put in. In places where the kitchen or bath is remote, they do
good since it takes so much water to prime the lines from the main water
heater that a lot is wasted. Good in places such as a small sink where a
lot of water is not needed, and they don't keep water hot while you're
away. Start by checking power requirements of the units you may need and
see if your electrical service will even handle it without some costly
upgrades. From there, the questions only start.

Steve


Again, the decision is between a *gas* tankless vs. a *gas* tank design.

thanks,

Jc

On Jan 30, 10:24*am, wrote:
wrote in ...

On Jan 30, 10:06 am, wrote:





"Joe" wrote in ds.net...
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

Tankless is the way to go. It's the future. I've never known anyone
who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the
decision.

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it,
and no waste of energy when you don't. The claim that they don't
save much energy is a crock of ****, as you'll realize the first time
you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the
water heater.

Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. * *If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? * A dollar? * *My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, *is
maybe $20. *That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. * Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.
_____________

Do you shower in the dark?

As for small draw problems, this was addressed years ago by most
manufacturers. *One may still run into it on very cheap units.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do you only shower at night? Plenty of light in my bathroom during
the day. As for night, ever hear of lanterns, candles, etc? In a
power outage, I have used hot water and was happy to have it. It's
up to each individual to decide how important a factor that is in
their decision

wrote:

Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? A dollar? My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, is
maybe $20. That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.

You pay twenty dollars for the month. Some months. You gotta peel out the
overhead.

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family home. Originally I had two
natural gas bills.

By contacting the gas company, I found out that the minimum charge - even if
no gas was used - is $17.00 / month. That probably covers accounting,
preparing and mailing the bill, reading the meter, etc.

Screw this! With a little re-plumbing I connected the gas distribution
system of one side of the duplex to the other and discontinued gas service
for the parasite side. $200/year savings for a couple hours work and $10
worth of fittings.

Anyway, your bill for gas is really much lower than might otherwise be
apparent.

On Jan 30, 10:55*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:

Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. * *If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? * A dollar? * *My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, *is
maybe $20. *That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. * Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.

You pay twenty dollars for the month. Some months. You gotta peel out the
overhead.

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family home. Originally I had two
natural gas bills.

By contacting the gas company, I found out that the minimum charge - even if
no gas was used - is $17.00 / month. That probably covers accounting,
preparing and mailing the bill, reading the meter, etc.

Screw this! With a little re-plumbing I connected the gas distribution
system of one side of the duplex to the other and discontinued gas service
for the parasite side. $200/year savings for a couple hours work and $10
worth of fittings.

Anyway, your bill for gas is really much lower than might otherwise be
apparent.

It can be, you have to see what therms you use. My minimum was 9$,
some months in summer with tankless, gas cooking and dryer if I tried
and didnt shower long I got mine to what would be 6-8$ by therm usage,
but its work like using HW only for shaving and missing showers. I
have found my biggest water use is washing dishes. I just wanted to
know how little energy I could use.

wrote:
On Jan 30, 8:14�am, "Joe" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...



Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? �Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)
tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). �What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. �I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.
"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the house..."
Huh?
The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. �This placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. �*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. �The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

electric tankless for large family? live where it gets cold in
winter?

just figure on a MAJOR elecrical upgrade 200AMPS just to heat water,
plus 200 amps for your existing service.......

the electrical upgrade will cost thousands

all the bwater heated MUST be heated instaneously, that takes a lot of
current.

since electrical water heating is 100% efficent less just minimal tank
standby losses you will never save any money.;

had a friend price a electrical tankless 5 grand for install.

the vent line is a minor issue...


your power company should be asked they may need to upgrade lines and
or transformer in your area....

were you trying to save energy / money or desiring unlimited hot
water?

HE SAID he wanted to use GAS....

Joe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 8:14?am, "Joe" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...



Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? ?Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)
tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). ?What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. ?I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.
"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the
house..."
Huh?
The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. ?This placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. ?*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. ?The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

rereading your post so you heat water with electric? and are thinking
of converting to natural gas? first get yur chimney inspected.

gas tankless have a myriad of downsides. the forced vent tankless mean
no hot water if electric fails, none in tank since theres no tank.
electric needed to run power vent

I didn't say it would be forced tankless. it would be direct tankless, or
power vent tank. I understand that if the power went out with a powervent
tank, i wouldn't have hw beyond what was in the tank, but if power is out
long enough to allow the water to cool down, i've other problems. Plus, i
probably won't be taking a shower in the dark, so i'm considering that point
moot.

thanks,

jc


HE SAID he was going powervent out the side through pvc.


GD! do ANY of you people actually READ the original messages??


s

lid wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message . ..
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

Tankless is the way to go. It's the future. I've never known anyone
who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the
decision.


You obviously have talked to many. Of course most of them get the K&N
filter syndrome.. They won't admit it was a wrong decision , cause they
got ripped..

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it,
and no waste of energy when you don't. The claim that they don't
save much energy is a crock of ****, as you'll realize the first time
you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the
water heater.


It's not logical at all. They won't make 140+ degree water in the
winter unless you're where there is no winter. And why would you turn
it off for vacation?

steve

Joe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 7:04 am, "Joe" wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

Definitely tank. At least 50 gallon, maybe 60.

A single tankless heater just won't be able to keep up with the demand
of up to three showers plus someone in the kitchen. You know it'll
happen.

yeah....sigh it probably will eventually, when the kids are a little
older.

Any truth to the axiom that you can go down 2 sizes when moving from
electric to gas hwh's due to better recovery time? eg: currently an
80gallon electric, go to 50 gallon gas.

jc


50 is plenty

steve

"Steve Barker TB" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 8:14?am, "Joe" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...



Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? ?Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)
tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). ?What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. ?I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.
"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the
house..."
Huh?
The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it
where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. ?This
placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I
decide to go with the gas tank model. ?*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort
in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but
would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. ?The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

rereading your post so you heat water with electric? and are thinking
of converting to natural gas? first get yur chimney inspected.

gas tankless have a myriad of downsides. the forced vent tankless mean
no hot water if electric fails, none in tank since theres no tank.
electric needed to run power vent

I didn't say it would be forced tankless. it would be direct tankless,
or power vent tank. I understand that if the power went out with a
powervent tank, i wouldn't have hw beyond what was in the tank, but if
power is out long enough to allow the water to cool down, i've other
problems. Plus, i probably won't be taking a shower in the dark, so i'm
considering that point moot.

thanks,

jc


HE SAID he was going powervent out the side through pvc.


GD! do ANY of you people actually READ the original messages??


s

lmao Steve, I was beginning to wonder the same thing.

jc

On Jan 30, 7:04*am, "Joe" wrote:

I know I'm going with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water
heater to get.


The small tankless Paloma (propane) in our isolated summer home in
northwestern Canada has been in use each May-through-October for
twenty-one years. It has easily been able to satisfy the demands of up
to eight teenagers taking showers because they take them sequentially
(we have only one shower). If it weren't economical to run it would
have been removed long ago (getting a tank of propane out to our
island involves a forty-mile boat trip).
Interestingly enough, there are a couple plumbers on nearby islands,
and both ridiculed me when I installed the Paloma (they knew nothing
about tankless water heaters, therefore tankless water heaters must be
bad). Both spend less time on the lake than we do, both make more
frequent trips to town for propane, and both have had to replace their
tank-type water heaters at least once in the past twenty years.

Our satisfaction with the Paloma led me to install a slightly larger
tankless Bosch/AquaStar (natural gas) in our house in western Canada
in 1998 (not as far north as the cottage, but it gets down to -40ºC /
-40ºF in winter). The Bosch, too, is capable of supplying hot water
indefinitely for sequential showers. Until we sold that house in 2005
my wife kept charts on its gas consumption, and it definitely is
economical to run.

The Paloma gets its propane via twenty feet of 1/4" copper tubing from
the tank; the Bosch uses six feet of 1/2" iron pipe from the main
natural gas line. Neither uses any electricity. The Bosch has the
added bonus of no pilot light. Maintenance on both has been zero
(other than the Paloma's being drained for winters).

On Jan 30, 5:57*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:43:14 -0800 (PST), ransley





wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:55*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:

Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. * *If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? * A dollar? * *My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, *is
maybe $20. *That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. * Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.

You pay twenty dollars for the month. Some months. You gotta peel out the
overhead.

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family home. Originally I had two
natural gas bills.

By contacting the gas company, I found out that the minimum charge - even if
no gas was used - is $17.00 / month. That probably covers accounting,
preparing and mailing the bill, reading the meter, etc.

Screw this! With a little re-plumbing I connected the gas distribution
system of one side of the duplex to the other and discontinued gas service
for the parasite side. $200/year savings for a couple hours work and $10
worth of fittings.

Anyway, your bill for gas is really much lower than might otherwise be
apparent.

It can be, you have to see what therms you use. My minimum was 9$,
some months in summer with tankless, gas cooking and dryer if I tried
and didnt shower long I got mine to what would be 6-8$ by therm usage,
but its work like using HW only for shaving and missing showers. I
have found my biggest water use is washing dishes. I just wanted to
know how little energy I could use.

Sorry ransley but that is just plain freaking gross. Missing showers
just to save a few bucks? I guess you just have the dog lick the
dishes clean too to save hot water?
Pry that damn wallet open and spend a couple bucks. No one wants to
smell you.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Learn E.F. ratings is like AFUE but for water heaters bubbanuts.

On Jan 30, 5:48*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 05:26:38 -0800 (PST), ransley





wrote:
On Jan 30, 6:04*am, "Joe" wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? *Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). *What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. *I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

I have tankless and am happy. But with tankless savings drop way off
on multiple continous users, maybe you save 5%, but you will need the
biggest most expensive 200,000 btu unit for 4. That means a big gas
pipe. You would first need your line tested to see if it will give you
the flow you need. In winter when all gas apliances in your house are
on and pressure is lower you might have to do extra work to get that
extra 200,000 btu you will need for colder winter water. AO Smith
Vertex is maybe one of the most efficent Tanks of about 83 EF. For
single-2 people use, vacation homes tankless are great but with 4 you
need to research it and would possibly not like the drawbacks. A big
tankless might cost alot for the gas line needed. A condensing Vertex
is as efficent as most tankless at 82-83 E.F. I think, Its High
recovery but it costs $

C'mon ransley. I keep telling you to stop making up numbers.
Where do you come up with a 5% savings? No where. You just pulled that
number out of the air.
Next you quote the AO Smith Vertex as 83 EF. Wrong again. It is 96 %
and its "Thermal Efficiency". (Yes, I have the link)http://www.ho****er.com/products/res...vertex100.html

Then here is another interesting link on the same thing.http://www.ho****er.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARGSS01306.pdf
They quote the same water heater at 90 % Thermal Efficiency.
Even more interesting is they quote that a standard efficiency water
heater is 78% which is a far cry from the 55 EF you were saying in a
prior post I challenged you on.
You really have to stop pulling numbers out of your ass and get some
documentation before you type.
You will look a lot more credible that way.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are DUMBER THAN A ROCK Thermal efficency is not E.F. retard. EF
ratings are there idiot, go find it for the AO line. Thats like saying
my 65 yr old furnace burner was tested at 96% efficent so its 96%
efficient, quit before you get a bigger put down.

On Jan 30, 5:57*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:43:14 -0800 (PST), ransley





wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:55*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:

Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. * *If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? * A dollar? * *My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, *is
maybe $20. *That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. * Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.

You pay twenty dollars for the month. Some months. You gotta peel out the
overhead.

I live in a duplex converted to a single-family home. Originally I had two
natural gas bills.

By contacting the gas company, I found out that the minimum charge - even if
no gas was used - is $17.00 / month. That probably covers accounting,
preparing and mailing the bill, reading the meter, etc.

Screw this! With a little re-plumbing I connected the gas distribution
system of one side of the duplex to the other and discontinued gas service
for the parasite side. $200/year savings for a couple hours work and $10
worth of fittings.

Anyway, your bill for gas is really much lower than might otherwise be
apparent.

It can be, you have to see what therms you use. My minimum was 9$,
some months in summer with tankless, gas cooking and dryer if I tried
and didnt shower long I got mine to what would be 6-8$ by therm usage,
but its work like using HW only for shaving and missing showers. I
have found my biggest water use is washing dishes. I just wanted to
know how little energy I could use.

Sorry ransley but that is just plain freaking gross. Missing showers
just to save a few bucks? I guess you just have the dog lick the
dishes clean too to save hot water?
Pry that damn wallet open and spend a couple bucks. No one wants to
smell you.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nobody wants to listen to your wrong info. Especialy since your
suposidly a pro.

On Jan 30, 5:53*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:15:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:06*am, wrote:
"Joe" wrote in ds.net...
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? *Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). *What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. *I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.

Tankless is the way to go. *It's the future. *I've never known anyone
who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the
decision.

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it,
and no waste of energy when you don't. *The claim that they don't
save much energy is a crock of ****, as you'll realize the first time
you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the
water heater.

Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. * *If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? * A dollar? * *My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, *is
maybe $20. *That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. * Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.

$20 ! Nobody can live in a shack that small.
Do you not take showers in the summer or are you heating water in
solar panels on the roof?
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I bet his "shack" costs 10x what you think is a house, knowing Trader.

On Jan 31, 3:15�am, Steve Barker TB
wrote:
Bubba wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:15:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 30, 10:06 am, wrote:
"Joe" wrote in ds.net...
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? �Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4
occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)
tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900
range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so
direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to
$1,200). �What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require?
the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless)
positives and negatives are all welcome. �I know I'm going with gas, but I'm
just not sure which type of water heater to get.
Tankless is the way to go. �It's the future. �I've never known anyone
who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the
decision.

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it,
and no waste of energy when you don't. �The claim that they don't
save much energy is a crock of ****, as you'll realize the first time
you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the
water heater.
Sure they save energy, it's just a question of how much versus the
increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. � �If
you don't turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much
do you think that amounts to? � A dollar? � �My entire gas bill in
summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, �is
maybe $20. �That includes usage for the month, as well as standby
loss. � Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during
power outages and that people have reported problems with the units
not firing up with small draw situations.

$20 ! Nobody can live in a shack that small.
Do you not take showers in the summer or are you heating water in
solar panels on the roof?
Bubba

that's all mine is in the summer also.

s- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my understanding is efficeny is overall efficency rating. thermal
efficency is JUST the heating part. And the typical furnace
rating/...........

which discounts the electric to to operate the device. for a water
heater thats the ignitor bower and sensors.

I was futher told tankless ratings are thermal efficency numbers.

this all from a company selling heating equiptement furnaces water
heaters etc

ok ransleyy and bubba round 8!!!!!!!!

"Joe" wrote in message
. ..

"Steve Barker TB" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 8:14?am, "Joe" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...



Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? ?Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)
tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). ?What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. ?I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.
"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the
house..."
Huh?
The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any
tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it
where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. ?This
placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if*
I
decide to go with the gas tank model. ?*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against
an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort
in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but
would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper.
?The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

rereading your post so you heat water with electric? and are thinking
of converting to natural gas? first get yur chimney inspected.

gas tankless have a myriad of downsides. the forced vent tankless mean
no hot water if electric fails, none in tank since theres no tank.
electric needed to run power vent

I didn't say it would be forced tankless. it would be direct tankless,
or power vent tank. I understand that if the power went out with a
powervent tank, i wouldn't have hw beyond what was in the tank, but if
power is out long enough to allow the water to cool down, i've other
problems. Plus, i probably won't be taking a shower in the dark, so i'm
considering that point moot.

thanks,

jc


HE SAID he was going powervent out the side through pvc.


GD! do ANY of you people actually READ the original messages??


s

lmao Steve, I was beginning to wonder the same thing.

jc


That's why that score called "Reading Comprehension" is generally so low for
American school kids. They might be able to READ but they can't understand
what they have read!

On Jan 31, 1:33*pm, "Mark" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

. ..





"Steve Barker TB" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
wrote in message
....
On Jan 30, 8:14?am, "Joe" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

news:lLednWmfAu0SZR_UnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@earthlin k.com...

Joe wrote:
Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? ?Home is 3 1/2
baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)
tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the
$900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the
house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a
little more ($1k to $1,200). ?What size gas line do the extra btu's
of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60',
mostly straight.
Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the
tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. ?I know I'm going
with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.
"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the
house..."
Huh?
The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any
tankless
model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it
where
it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement
wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. ?This
placement
situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if*
I
decide to go with the gas tank model. ?*If* I go tankless, the space
requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against
an
exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort
in
plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but
would
save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper.
?The
double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not*
cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

rereading your post so you heat water *with electric? and are thinking
of converting to natural gas? first get yur chimney inspected.

gas tankless have a myriad of downsides. the forced vent tankless mean
no hot water if electric fails, none in tank since theres no tank.
electric needed to run power vent

I didn't say it would be forced tankless. *it would be direct tankless,
or power vent tank. *I understand that if the power went out with a
powervent tank, i wouldn't have hw beyond what was in the tank, but if
power is out long enough to allow the water to cool down, i've other
problems. *Plus, i probably won't be taking a shower in the dark, so i'm
considering that point moot.

thanks,

jc

HE SAID he was going powervent out the side through pvc.

GD! *do ANY of you people actually READ the original messages??

s

lmao Steve, *I was beginning to wonder the same thing.

jc

That's why that score called "Reading Comprehension" is generally so low for
American school kids. *They might be able to READ but they can't understand
what they have read!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have two on demand gas water heaters that are located in seasonal
rental properties. Under this conditionn where use is somewhat
sporatic they worked well. When I was renting a house to an elderly
couple they had no problems with it . When the same house was rented
out to a family of 5 They never had enough hot water and I had to
install a 50 gal propane water heater. The house was 3 b3droom 3.5
bathes. Their biggest complaint was that two people couldnt shower at
the same time and ding laundry caused a problem Its my understanding
that when the manufacturers wrote up their comparisons on the on
demand heaters that they compared them to the most poorly insulated
inefficent tanked units they could find and compared US style baths
( 20 minutes) to Japanese style baths(3 min).

HAve you seen the installation cost on these things. When I installed
mine I was replcing gas and it wasnt to bad. If you are replacing
electtric the only person benifiting frrom it is the installer. The
savings will pay for the installation just about the time it has to be
replaced. JMO

Jimmie

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:13:56 -0800 (PST), borealbushman
wrote:

The small tankless Paloma (propane) in our isolated summer home in
northwestern Canada has been in use each May-through-October for
twenty-one years. It has easily been able to satisfy the demands of up
to eight teenagers taking showers because they take them sequentially
(we have only one shower). If it weren't economical to run it would
have been removed long ago (getting a tank of propane out to our
island involves a forty-mile boat trip).
[info on ignorant plumbers cut]
Our satisfaction with the Paloma led me to install a slightly larger
tankless Bosch/AquaStar (natural gas) in our house in western Canada
in 1998 (not as far north as the cottage, but it gets down to -40ºC /
-40ºF in winter). The Bosch, too, is capable of supplying hot water
indefinitely for sequential showers. Until we sold that house in 2005
my wife kept charts on its gas consumption, and it definitely is
economical to run.

The Paloma gets its propane via twenty feet of 1/4" copper tubing from
the tank; the Bosch uses six feet of 1/2" iron pipe from the main
natural gas line. Neither uses any electricity. The Bosch has the
added bonus of no pilot light. Maintenance on both has been zero
(other than the Paloma's being drained for winters).

This all is really interesting, but what strikes me is that you seem
not to be relying on these for year-round use. I am not sure whether
using these in real winters is a good proposition; they seem perfect
for your summer use, but do you have anecdotal evidence from people
who are using them in the middle of a freezing winter for 6 months on
end?