My attention has just been drawn to the following document:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPI.../SR_SB_CFL.pdf

Note that although the original report is older, this .PDF includes
supplements through 2005.

This seems to show that Osram/Sylvania have the shortest life and a
significant deterioration in light output during that short life,

GE appear to be the best. I think they are available at Wal-Mart and
Sam's Club.

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
My attention has just been drawn to the following document:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPI.../SR_SB_CFL.pdf

Note that although the original report is older, this .PDF includes
supplements through 2005.

This seems to show that Osram/Sylvania have the shortest life and a
significant deterioration in light output during that short life,

GE appear to be the best. I think they are available at Wal-Mart and Sam's
Club.

Perce

In terms of CFL technology, 2005 is almost pre-historic. Most new bulbs are
quite nice. I hated and refused to use them years ago but like the bright
white of some now.

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:03:45 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 01/17/09 06:18 pm Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Percival P. wrote in message
...
My attention has just been drawn to the following document:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPI.../SR_SB_CFL.pdf

Note that although the original report is older, this .PDF includes
supplements through 2005.

This seems to show that Osram/Sylvania have the shortest life and a
significant deterioration in light output during that short life,

GE appear to be the best. I think they are available at Wal-Mart and Sam's
Club.

In terms of CFL technology, 2005 is almost pre-historic. Most new bulbs are
quite nice. I hated and refused to use them years ago but like the bright
white of some now.

Probably true that a lot has changed since 2005. But most of the CFLs
I've bought have been Sylvania, and they haven't lasted particularly
long. Perhaps that's a Sylvania thing: I had some Sylvania incandescents
that popped as soon as I switched on and at least on more out of the
same pack that lasted only a couple of days.

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

Perce

Where did you buy those LED lights? Do they screw into a standard
socket? I have horses in a barn and have a 10watt CFL (equal to 40W)
security light which is on all the time (so the horses can see). I
guess 240W per day is not too bad on the electric bill, but the CFLs
get very dim in cold weather, and when our recent cold spell dropped
to MINUS 39F, it was so dim I could only see a dull glow, and then it
burned out. I replaced it, and it was so dim I could not see
anything. I finally replaced it with a smaller incandescent.

I'd like to cut down power usage, as well as eliminating this dimming
problem in the cold. Besides that, I was told NOT to use a light
sensor to shut off the power during the day (on a CFL), because when
they turn on and off, they are not putting out full power for a minute
or two (like a dimmer), and that will destroy a CFL quickly. I'm sure
a LED would not be affected by that, so I can save even more power.

Using 10W CFLs 24/7 for one year is 87,600 watts.
If those LEDs use 3.5 W and I could put on a sensor, so it would only
be on about 12 hours per day (average), that would only be 15,330
watts per year. Quite a savings.

Jim

Jimw wrote:

Where did you buy those LED lights? Do they screw into a standard
socket? I have horses in a barn and have a 10watt CFL (equal to 40W)
security light which is on all the time (so the horses can see). I
guess 240W per day is not too bad on the electric bill, but the CFLs
get very dim in cold weather, and when our recent cold spell dropped
to MINUS 39F, it was so dim I could only see a dull glow, and then it
burned out. I replaced it, and it was so dim I could not see
anything. I finally replaced it with a smaller incandescent.


CFLs do generate SOME heat.

You might try enclosing the bulb in a clear glass fixture thereby trapping
some of the generated heat and increasing the light output.

I really cannot see how you could justify the bulb change based on cost.
At $0.15/kWh the 87600 watt hours you use in a year only costs about
$13.00. Changing to the LED's would lower this to about $2.30. Hardly
worth a trip to the store.

EJ in NJ

Jimw wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:03:45 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 01/17/09 06:18 pm Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Percival P. wrote in message
...
My attention has just been drawn to the following document:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPI.../SR_SB_CFL.pdf

Note that although the original report is older, this .PDF includes
supplements through 2005.

This seems to show that Osram/Sylvania have the shortest life and a
significant deterioration in light output during that short life,

GE appear to be the best. I think they are available at Wal-Mart and Sam's
Club.
In terms of CFL technology, 2005 is almost pre-historic. Most new bulbs are
quite nice. I hated and refused to use them years ago but like the bright
white of some now.
Probably true that a lot has changed since 2005. But most of the CFLs
I've bought have been Sylvania, and they haven't lasted particularly
long. Perhaps that's a Sylvania thing: I had some Sylvania incandescents
that popped as soon as I switched on and at least on more out of the
same pack that lasted only a couple of days.

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

Perce

Where did you buy those LED lights? Do they screw into a standard
socket? I have horses in a barn and have a 10watt CFL (equal to 40W)
security light which is on all the time (so the horses can see). I
guess 240W per day is not too bad on the electric bill, but the CFLs
get very dim in cold weather, and when our recent cold spell dropped
to MINUS 39F, it was so dim I could only see a dull glow, and then it
burned out. I replaced it, and it was so dim I could not see
anything. I finally replaced it with a smaller incandescent.

I'd like to cut down power usage, as well as eliminating this dimming
problem in the cold. Besides that, I was told NOT to use a light
sensor to shut off the power during the day (on a CFL), because when
they turn on and off, they are not putting out full power for a minute
or two (like a dimmer), and that will destroy a CFL quickly. I'm sure
a LED would not be affected by that, so I can save even more power.

Using 10W CFLs 24/7 for one year is 87,600 watts.
If those LEDs use 3.5 W and I could put on a sensor, so it would only
be on about 12 hours per day (average), that would only be 15,330
watts per year. Quite a savings.

Jim

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:08:18 -0500, Ernie Willson
wrote:

I really cannot see how you could justify the bulb change based on cost.
At $0.15/kWh the 87600 watt hours you use in a year only costs about
$13.00. Changing to the LED's would lower this to about $2.30. Hardly
worth a trip to the store.

EJ in NJ


Based entirely on cost of energy, you are right, even though all these
things do add up. But based on the poor performance in cold weather,
it's definately worth changing. Plus, right now, I am using an
incandescent bulb and that is costing more. It's just too cold to get
any light out of the CFL. Also, I have had to replace this bulb about
once a year. I know they are only $5 or less, but if a LED costs $10
or even $20, I know they last almost forever.
Actually, I bought a string of white LED Christmas lights after
christmas for less than half price. I was wondering how much light
that would produce. It's not handy, but I think that has about 30
LEDs and said it used about 3 watts. I have not yet tried it, it's
been too cold to **** around outdoors. I figured I'd find some use
for it, for the couple bucks it cost.

Jimw wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:03:45 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 01/17/09 06:18 pm Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Percival P. wrote in message
...
My attention has just been drawn to the following document:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPI.../SR_SB_CFL.pdf

Note that although the original report is older, this .PDF includes
supplements through 2005.

This seems to show that Osram/Sylvania have the shortest life and a
significant deterioration in light output during that short life,

GE appear to be the best. I think they are available at Wal-Mart and Sam's
Club.
In terms of CFL technology, 2005 is almost pre-historic. Most new bulbs are
quite nice. I hated and refused to use them years ago but like the bright
white of some now.
Probably true that a lot has changed since 2005. But most of the CFLs
I've bought have been Sylvania, and they haven't lasted particularly
long. Perhaps that's a Sylvania thing: I had some Sylvania incandescents
that popped as soon as I switched on and at least on more out of the
same pack that lasted only a couple of days.

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

Perce

Where did you buy those LED lights? Do they screw into a standard
socket? I have horses in a barn and have a 10watt CFL (equal to 40W)
security light which is on all the time (so the horses can see). I
guess 240W per day is not too bad on the electric bill, but the CFLs
get very dim in cold weather, and when our recent cold spell dropped
to MINUS 39F, it was so dim I could only see a dull glow, and then it
burned out. I replaced it, and it was so dim I could not see
anything. I finally replaced it with a smaller incandescent.

I'd like to cut down power usage, as well as eliminating this dimming
problem in the cold. Besides that, I was told NOT to use a light
sensor to shut off the power during the day (on a CFL), because when
they turn on and off, they are not putting out full power for a minute
or two (like a dimmer), and that will destroy a CFL quickly. I'm sure
a LED would not be affected by that, so I can save even more power.

Using 10W CFLs 24/7 for one year is 87,600 watts.
If those LEDs use 3.5 W and I could put on a sensor, so it would only
be on about 12 hours per day (average), that would only be 15,330
watts per year. Quite a savings.

Jim

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 01/17/09 06:18 pm Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Percival P. wrote in message
...
My attention has just been drawn to the following document:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPI.../SR_SB_CFL.pdf

Note that although the original report is older, this .PDF includes
supplements through 2005.

This seems to show that Osram/Sylvania have the shortest life and a
significant deterioration in light output during that short life,

GE appear to be the best. I think they are available at Wal-Mart and
Sam's
Club.

In terms of CFL technology, 2005 is almost pre-historic. Most new bulbs
are
quite nice. I hated and refused to use them years ago but like the
bright
white of some now.

Probably true that a lot has changed since 2005. But most of the CFLs I've
bought have been Sylvania, and they haven't lasted particularly long.
Perhaps that's a Sylvania thing: I had some Sylvania incandescents that
popped as soon as I switched on and at least on more out of the same pack
that lasted only a couple of days.

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

Perce

Lights of America products are typically poorly engineered junk. Also beware
of cheap LED lights. They will fade within a few hundred hours of use. These
are the type made from clusters of those 5mm indicatoer style LEDs. The
bulbs are usually under $25. The only good LED bulbs are expensive and use
high power LEDs, like the Cree XR-E emitter.

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.


I picked up a pack of those LED lamps to fiddle with. Some notes:

- The light is not "nice white", it is notably bluish like most "white"
LEDs.

- The color temp is not consistent between lamps, particularly if they
have had different run times.

- LEDs produce less lumens per Watt than CFLs, so they are less
efficient. Being directional they can allow a lower Wattage to be used
for task lighting however.

- Those particular lamps don't go off when you turn them off, they
continue to produce very low level light for several minutes.

I did a comparison in a wall wash type application between those LED
lamps, a 14W CFL and a 50W encapsulated halogen and the CFL won for best
overall results. The LED lamps are still interesting to fiddle with.

On Jan 18, 10:44�am, "Pete C." wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

I picked up a pack of those LED lamps to fiddle with. Some notes:

- The light is not "nice white", it is notably bluish like most "white"
LEDs.

- The color temp is not consistent between lamps, particularly if they
have had different run times.

- LEDs produce less lumens per Watt than CFLs, so they are less
efficient. Being directional they can allow a lower Wattage to be used
for task lighting however.

- Those particular lamps don't go off when you turn them off, they
continue to produce very low level light for several minutes.

I did a comparison in a wall wash type application between those LED
lamps, a 14W CFL and a 50W encapsulated halogen and the CFL won for best
overall results. The LED lamps are still interesting to fiddle with.

lets see I have a CFL in my pole lamp controlled by a lamp sensor and
timer. its off from midnite to 6AM on any other time its dark enough,
occasionally tripsa on in mid day during a storm.

this CFL dies on average once a year, wierdly when I used incandescent
bulbs they died more often but were a lot cheaper.

but CFL failure doesnt appear to take out the light sensor they are
expensive.

so the CFL is affordable, by saving bucks on energy and lamp sensors.

bought a LED night light, way too blue, its nifty but not ready for
prime time

On Jan 18, 10:44*am, "Pete C." wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

I picked up a pack of those LED lamps to fiddle with. Some notes:

- The light is not "nice white", it is notably bluish like most "white"
LEDs.

- The color temp is not consistent between lamps, particularly if they
have had different run times.

- LEDs produce less lumens per Watt than CFLs, so they are less
efficient. Being directional they can allow a lower Wattage to be used
for task lighting however.

- Those particular lamps don't go off when you turn them off, they
continue to produce very low level light for several minutes.

I did a comparison in a wall wash type application between those LED
lamps, a 14W CFL and a 50W encapsulated halogen and the CFL won for best
overall results. The LED lamps are still interesting to fiddle with.

I have done some experimenting with LED lighting and found they are
most useful for when they reall only have to be seen instead of
illuminating any particular area. I am using some for stairwell lights
and they work great for that. I was very disapponted in the counter
top lamps I installed. The counter top lamps do make decent night
lights so I kept them and added some flourescent work lights beneath
the kitchen cabinets. A florescent fixture that also contains some
LEDs may be interesting.

Jimmie

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:38:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 18, 10:44?am, "Pete C." wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

I picked up a pack of those LED lamps to fiddle with. Some notes:

- The light is not "nice white", it is notably bluish like most "white"
LEDs.

- The color temp is not consistent between lamps, particularly if they
have had different run times.

- LEDs produce less lumens per Watt than CFLs, so they are less
efficient. Being directional they can allow a lower Wattage to be used
for task lighting however.

- Those particular lamps don't go off when you turn them off, they
continue to produce very low level light for several minutes.

I did a comparison in a wall wash type application between those LED
lamps, a 14W CFL and a 50W encapsulated halogen and the CFL won for best
overall results. The LED lamps are still interesting to fiddle with.

lets see I have a CFL in my pole lamp controlled by a lamp sensor and
timer. its off from midnite to 6AM on any other time its dark enough,
occasionally tripsa on in mid day during a storm.

this CFL dies on average once a year, wierdly when I used incandescent
bulbs they died more often but were a lot cheaper.

but CFL failure doesnt appear to take out the light sensor they are
expensive.

so the CFL is affordable, by saving bucks on energy and lamp sensors.

bought a LED night light, way too blue, its nifty but not ready for
prime time

Yes, I know the white ones are a bluish tint. I got some of those
headlamps and flashlights.

One thing I always wonder, I noticed that most of the Christmas LEDs
have a colored shell. I know a LED can create red, for example,
because I have seen clear shells that are red, or green, or whatever.
But I wonder if these colored ones with colored shells are not just
white and the shell makes the color?

Yes, I have considered a timer rather than a sensor. I'd have to
change the settings regularly. Not that big of a deal, but at the
same time I know timer motors consume energy too, so it might not be
worth it.

Jim

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:01:08 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Jimw wrote:

Where did you buy those LED lights? Do they screw into a standard
socket? I have horses in a barn and have a 10watt CFL (equal to 40W)
security light which is on all the time (so the horses can see). I
guess 240W per day is not too bad on the electric bill, but the CFLs
get very dim in cold weather, and when our recent cold spell dropped
to MINUS 39F, it was so dim I could only see a dull glow, and then it
burned out. I replaced it, and it was so dim I could not see
anything. I finally replaced it with a smaller incandescent.

CFLs do generate SOME heat.

You might try enclosing the bulb in a clear glass fixture thereby trapping
some of the generated heat and increasing the light output.

Good suggestion, and I also wonder if using one of those shrouded CFLs
designed to be used in a canister or hi-hat application would last
longer as opposed to the ones that have the tubes exposed.

On 01/18/09 09:44 am JohnR66 wrote:

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

Lights of America products are typically poorly engineered junk. Also beware
of cheap LED lights. They will fade within a few hundred hours of use. These
are the type made from clusters of those 5mm indicatoer style LEDs. The
bulbs are usually under $25. The only good LED bulbs are expensive and use
high power LEDs, like the Cree XR-E emitter.

That 2005 supplement shows Lights of America CFLs outlasting Sylvania.

Why should small LEDs fade significantly in this configuration if they
don't fade as indicator lights?

Perce

On 01/18/09 03:36 am Jimw wrote:

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

Where did you buy those LED lights?

Sam's Club.

Perce

Just a link I found that seems it might be helpful.

http://www.earthled.com/index.html

I myself am leaning towards these light bulbs.

Supposed to be no hazardous waste as well.

Nickodemos

In article ,
JohnR66 wrote:

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 01/17/09 06:18 pm Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Percival P. wrote in message
...
My attention has just been drawn to the following document:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPI.../SR_SB_CFL.pdf

Note that although the original report is older, this .PDF includes
supplements through 2005.

This seems to show that Osram/Sylvania have the shortest life and a
significant deterioration in light output during that short life,

GE appear to be the best. I think they are available at Wal-Mart and
Sam's
Club.

In terms of CFL technology, 2005 is almost pre-historic. Most new bulbs
are
quite nice. I hated and refused to use them years ago but like the
bright
white of some now.

Probably true that a lot has changed since 2005. But most of the CFLs I've
bought have been Sylvania, and they haven't lasted particularly long.
Perhaps that's a Sylvania thing: I had some Sylvania incandescents that
popped as soon as I switched on and at least on more out of the same pack
that lasted only a couple of days.

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

Perce

Lights of America products are typically poorly engineered junk. Also beware
of cheap LED lights. They will fade within a few hundred hours of use. These
are the type made from clusters of those 5mm indicatoer style LEDs. The
bulbs are usually under $25. The only good LED bulbs are expensive and use
high power LEDs, like the Cree XR-E emitter.

Colored LEDs usually last a good long time, if they are blue,
blue-green, green, yellow, orange or red. The often-stated 100,000 hours
has a high rate of "turning out true" for those.

White ones have a phosphor that is subject to fading - better low power
ones have "half-life" maybe 10,000 hours, merely fair ones a few thousand
hours, and well-engineered major brand (such as Lumileds) heatsinkable
high power ones achieve 50,000 hours with only 30% fading supposedly (or
as a projection, latest "flagship" ones have existed less than 50,000
hours), provided they are operated "reasonably conservatively" in amount
of current and in terms of temperature - as in chip/"junction" temperature
maybe 30 degrees C cooler than "absolute maximum" or 85 degrees C
(whichever is hotter).
Pink and purple ones also have phosphor. Violet ones (which is
distinguished from purple by being a spectral color) usually have another
life-shortening issue - nearly-UV wavelength and nearby UV also emited
degrade most plastic chip-encapsulating materials at close range, and
"half-life" is all-too-often a few hundred to optimistically a couple
thousand hours. (Thankfully, most purple LED "holiday lights" use white
LEDs within purple shells - and glow with a color a bit more like
"lavendar" than like "deep violet").

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 01/18/09 09:44 am JohnR66 wrote:

I have just bought some "Lights of America" brand 45-watt-equivalent LED
bulbs (power consumption only 3.5W) intended for use in accent lights: a
nice white light and no warm-up delay.

Lights of America products are typically poorly engineered junk. Also beware
of cheap LED lights. They will fade within a few hundred hours of use. These
are the type made from clusters of those 5mm indicatoer style LEDs. The
bulbs are usually under $25. The only good LED bulbs are expensive and use
high power LEDs, like the Cree XR-E emitter.

That 2005 supplement shows Lights of America CFLs outlasting Sylvania.

My experience with Lights of America (though mostly not buying much from
them since 2002 due to disappointments) is early failure.

Why should small LEDs fade significantly in this configuration if they
don't fade as indicator lights?

White low power LEDs have low usage as indicator lights, and they are
likely to run into fading issues there unless seriously underpowered.
Keep in mind that most modern white LEDs are plenty bright enough for
use as indicator lights at 3-4 milliamps, 15-20% of the 20 milliamps that
most "low power" LEDs have their specified performance dependent on. Keep
in mind how glaringly bright most modern white low power LEDs are at 20 mA
- they will put spots in your eyes!

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Jimw wrote:

SNIP previously quoted material

Yes, I know the white ones are a bluish tint. I got some of those
headlamps and flashlights.

One thing I always wonder, I noticed that most of the Christmas LEDs
have a colored shell. I know a LED can create red, for example,
because I have seen clear shells that are red, or green, or whatever.
But I wonder if these colored ones with colored shells are not just
white and the shell makes the color?

LEDs are normally specialists for producing a specific somewhat narrow
or moderately-narrow range of wavelengths. LEDs producing visible light
normally produce light that is fairly to highly "saturated" with a color.

White LEDs are generally blue ones having a phosphor that absorbs some
of the blue light and coverts the absorbed blue light to light that is
fairly yellow, and the combo of the yellow phosphor output and the portion
of the blue light that gets out unabsorbed approximates white.

Ability of LEDs to specialize in production of colored light is a big
part of how LED traffic lights can consume something like only 11-12% as
much power/energy as incandescent ones. Incandescent red and green
traffic signals have something like 2/3 to 70% of their light blocked by
the color filters, as well as (of secondary importance) efficiency
compromises for rated life expectancy 8,000 hours and
vibration-resistant filament design.

- Don Klipstein )