I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:13:10 -0400, DerbyDad03
wrote:

I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

Might be caused by the float valve in one of your toilets.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to bang.
I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks, securing
pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance, etc.
is turned ON or OFF.
- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll get
anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or dual
faucet fixtures.
- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped, because
it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may have just
been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

My guess----You might be getting more than one bang because something is
really loose and has plenty of room to move around. The fact that it
happens with either hot or cold suggests that it might be near the location
where the water first comes into the house. This brings to mind this
thought, do you have any pressure regulating valves in the house? Poor
valve response resulting in several shutting and opening cycles could cause
this symptom. As we all know, water hammer can be a very destructive force.
MLD

On Oct 13, 8:13�am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

� - Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
� - They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
� - When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
� - When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
� - It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
� - It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
� - I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

if you have any valves to isolate bathrooms sinks etc try turning them
off to isolate the problem

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to bang.
I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks, securing
pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance, etc.
is turned ON or OFF.
- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll get
anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or dual
faucet fixtures.
- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped, because
it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may have just
been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

I had the same sort of thing more like a tapping . No one could figure it
out ( and I'm A plumber) What it turned out to be in my case. On the hot
water tank the two nipples that screw directly into the top of the tank they
are actually small check valves there is a small marble inside that controls
the flow direction . For some reason one of these started vibrating ( supply
to house side) I have never seen one of these before ( I just do commercial
plumbing) I just went and bought two Dielectric nipples without a check
valve and that took care of it. I could not figure where the sound was
coming from it sounded like the pipes were rattling . Anyway that might a
your problem . The sound did get worse at night I'm guessing because of
thermal expansion in the hot water side. I have replaced / installed a lot
of Hot water tanks but have never seen these check valve nipples . I would
never use them or recommend them. You can just take the marble out easy to
tear apart.

On Oct 13, 9:20*am, "Sac Dave" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...





I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to bang.
I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks, securing
pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

*- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
*- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance, etc.
is turned ON or OFF.
*- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
*- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll get
anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
*- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or dual
faucet fixtures.
*- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
*- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped, because
it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may have just
been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

*I had the same sort of thing more like a tapping . No one could figure it
out ( and I'm A plumber) What it turned out to be in my case. On the hot
water tank the two nipples that screw directly into the top of the tank they
are actually small check valves there is a small marble inside that controls
the flow direction . For some reason one of these started vibrating ( supply
to house side) I have never seen one of these before ( I just do commercial
plumbing) I just went and bought two Dielectric nipples without a check
valve and that took care of it. I could not figure where the sound was
coming from it sounded like the pipes were rattling . Anyway that might a
your problem . The sound did get worse at night I'm guessing because of
thermal expansion in the hot water side. I have replaced / installed *a lot
of Hot water tanks but have never seen these check valve nipples . I would
never use them or recommend them. You can just take the marble out easy to
tear apart.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks, but I don't think that's my problem. I installed the water
heater in my house and as far as I know they aren't any "check valves"
on the water tank - unless they came with the unit.

On Oct 13, 8:33*am, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:13:10 -0400, DerbyDad03
wrote:





I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

*- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
*- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
*- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
*- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
*- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
*- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
*- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

Might be caused by the float valve in one of your toilets.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'll isolate the toilets to see. Would this explain both ON and OFF
causing the noise?

On Oct 13, 8:38*am, "MLD" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...





I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to bang.
I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks, securing
pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

*- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
*- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance, etc.
is turned ON or OFF.
*- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
*- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll get
anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
*- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or dual
faucet fixtures.
*- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
*- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped, because
it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may have just
been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

My guess----You might be getting more than one bang because something is
really loose and has plenty of room to move around. *The fact that it
happens with either hot or cold suggests that it might be near the location
where the water first comes into the house. *This brings to mind this
thought, do you have any pressure regulating valves in the house? *Poor
valve response resulting in several shutting and opening cycles could cause
this symptom. *As we all know, water hammer can be a very destructive force.
MLD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



Yes, there is a pressure regulating valve shortly after the meter. The
water enters the house, immediatley enters the meter and then into a
T. One side goes to a pipe that feeds the 2 outside hose bibs and the
other goes to the house. The regulator valavle is right after the T,
on the house side.

Now that you mentioned this, I haven't tested for the hammer using the
outside hoses bibs. I'm not sure what it will tell me one way or the
other, but it'll be one more piece of data.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:33 am, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:13:10 -0400, DerbyDad03
wrote:





I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.
The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.
- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.
Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?
Might be caused by the float valve in one of your toilets.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'll isolate the toilets to see. Would this explain both ON and OFF
causing the noise?

Possibly if you have high pressure and a valve lifting slightly.

Is this a new or existing problem? If new, have there been any
modifications to the system?

Do you have a pressure reducing valve?

Have you checked line pressure?

--

On Oct 13, 9:39*am, dpb wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:33 am, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:13:10 -0400, DerbyDad03
wrote:

I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.
The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.
*- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
*- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
*- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
*- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
*- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
*- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
*- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.
Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?
Might be caused by the float valve in one of your toilets.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'll isolate the toilets to see. Would this explain both ON and OFF
causing the noise?

Possibly if you have high pressure and a valve lifting slightly.

Is this a new or existing problem? *If new, have there been any
modifications to the system?

Do you have a pressure reducing valve?

Have you checked line pressure?

--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

- New problem, started about a week ago.
- The last modification to the system was a replacement fill valve in
a toilet, but this was many months ago, with many months of no noise.
- Yes, I have a pressure reducing valve.
- No, I have not checked the pressure.

I think that isolating the toilets should be my first (and easiest!)
step.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

- New problem, started about a week ago.
- The last modification to the system was a replacement fill valve in
a toilet, but this was many months ago, with many months of no noise.
- Yes, I have a pressure reducing valve.
- No, I have not checked the pressure.

I think that isolating the toilets should be my first (and easiest!)
step.

That can find if it is one of them, obviously. I've had issues w/ the
reducing valve failing in full open spot. Pressure itself isn't the
direct cause of hammer, of course, but higher pressure could be the root
cause of the cycling of a toilet valve. Or, it could be the reducing
valve spring itself chattering as it cycles.

--

On Oct 13, 10:06*am, dpb wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

...

- New problem, started about a week ago.
- The last modification to the system was a replacement fill valve in
a toilet, but this was many months ago, with many months of no noise.
- Yes, I have a pressure reducing valve.
- No, I have not checked the pressure.

I think that isolating the toilets should be my first (and easiest!)
step.

That can find if it is one of them, obviously. *I've had issues w/ the
reducing valve failing in full open spot. *Pressure itself isn't the
direct cause of hammer, of course, but higher pressure could be the root
cause of the cycling of a toilet valve. *Or, it could be the reducing
valve spring itself chattering as it cycles.

--

Any chance it could be the meter itself? When things are working fine,
I can always hear a slight ticking at the meter. The frequency of the
ticks is close to the frequency of the thumps. I don't know if there
are digital water meters for homes, but mine is analog in that that
there is a large dial for gallons and a little red triangle that spins
when the water flows.

One thing that I have noticed for many years is that if I turn off a
fixture and watch the triangle, I can both hear the flow of water for
a few seconds and the triangle continues to spin, slowly, as if the
pipes are "refilling", perhaps building back up to pressure. I wonder
if the meter itself is chattering, and thereby causing the thumping.

I'll call the town and see what they have to say.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Oct 13, 8:38 am, "MLD" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...





I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang.
I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks, securing
pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc.
is turned ON or OFF.
- When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
- When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get
anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
- It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or dual
faucet fixtures.
- It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
- I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because
it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may have
just
been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

My guess----You might be getting more than one bang because something is
really loose and has plenty of room to move around. The fact that it
happens with either hot or cold suggests that it might be near the
location
where the water first comes into the house. This brings to mind this
thought, do you have any pressure regulating valves in the house? Poor
valve response resulting in several shutting and opening cycles could
cause
this symptom. As we all know, water hammer can be a very destructive
force.
MLD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



Yes, there is a pressure regulating valve shortly after the meter. The
water enters the house, immediatley enters the meter and then into a
T. One side goes to a pipe that feeds the 2 outside hose bibs and the
other goes to the house. The regulator valavle is right after the T,
on the house side.

Now that you mentioned this, I haven't tested for the hammer using the
outside hoses bibs. I'm not sure what it will tell me one way or the
other, but it'll be one more piece of data.

I've had the water hammer problem that you describe and also experienced a
very loud shrieking noise as the toilet tanks in the house reached full.
The shrieking noise could be heard outside the house with the doors and
windows closed. The problem did indeed turn out to be the pressure
regulating valve on the incoming water line. Adjusting the pressur valve
slightly up or slightly down did the trick for a while; but replacing the
valve was the ultimate solution. My incoming pressure is very high and,
apparently, the valve had a lot of work to do and so simply wore out.

TKM

On Oct 13, 9:56*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 13, 9:39*am, dpb wrote:





DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:33 am, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:13:10 -0400, DerbyDad03
wrote:

I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.
The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.
*- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.

SNIP

I also noticed that at least with the basement faucet I was testing,
there is a delay of 3 - 4 seconds before the thumping starts after the
faucet is shut. I had time to walk across the basement to the incoming
meter after shutting the faucet before the thumps started. It is
during this time that I can still hear the water flowing in the pipes
even after the faucet is closed.

SNIP

If you can hear water flowing after you shut the faucet off, then to me,
that is a strong indication of air in the system. Perhaps the combination
of air and a malfunctioning pressure reducing valve is why there are
multiple thumps.
MLD

On Oct 13, 8:13*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

* - Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
* - They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
* - When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
* - When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
* - It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
* - It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
* - I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

I just seen a water noise priblem on this old house, and the noise was
caused by the water pipes in the celler that was secured by metal
hangers to the 2by's, causeing the noice when the water came through
the pipes because the pipes expand rubbing against the rafters causing
the noise. I thought it might be a faucet washer which would cause
that ratte tat noise, but u said it happ-ens with everything. Is it
cold water only that makes a noise or hot or both?? henry P.S. If the
water pipes are mounted on the rafters u have to get the pipes away
from them, and the hardware selles a pipe connecter that fits over the
pipe and the bracket has 2 holes to nail to the rafter, thus keeping
the water pipes away from the rafters, good luck, henry

On Oct 14, 3:00*pm, henrypenta wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:13*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

* - Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
* - They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
* - When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
* - When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
* - It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
* - It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
* - I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

I just seen a water noise priblem on this old house, and the noise was
caused by the water pipes in the celler that was secured by metal
hangers to the 2by's, causeing the noice when the water came through
the pipes because the pipes expand rubbing against the rafters causing
the noise. I thought it might be a faucet washer which would cause
that ratte tat noise, but u said it happ-ens with everything. Is it
cold water only that makes a noise or hot or both?? henry P.S. If the
water pipes are mounted on the rafters u have to get the pipes away
from them, and the hardware selles a pipe connecter that fits over the
pipe and the bracket has 2 holes to nail to the rafter, thus keeping
the water pipes away from the rafters, good luck, henry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It happens with both hot and cold water and with just about every
fixture in the house, as far as I can tell.

It's not expansion - I know the noise you speak off and this is not
that.

P.S. Rafters hold up roofs and are not typically found in cellars.

Might be caused by the float valve in one of your toilets.- Hide quoted text -

I think i saw this on "This old house"!!

On Oct 18, 6:21*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:15:03 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03





wrote:
On Oct 14, 3:00*pm, henrypenta wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:13*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

* - Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun..
* - They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
* - When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
* - When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
* - It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
* - It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
* - I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

I just seen a water noise priblem on this old house, and the noise was
caused by the water pipes in the celler that was secured by metal
hangers to the 2by's, causeing the noice when the water came through
the pipes because the pipes expand rubbing against the rafters causing
the noise. I thought it might be a faucet washer which would cause
that ratte tat noise, but u said it happ-ens with everything. Is it
cold water only that makes a noise or hot or both?? henry P.S. If the
water pipes are mounted on the rafters u have to get the pipes away
from them, and the hardware selles a pipe connecter that fits over the
pipe and the bracket has 2 holes to nail to the rafter, thus keeping
the water pipes away from the rafters, good luck, henry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It happens with both hot and cold water and with just about every
fixture in the house, as far as I can tell.

It's not expansion - I know the noise you speak off and this is not
that.

P.S. Rafters hold up roofs and are not typically found in cellars.

Maybe it's caused by the pressure reducing valve itself. *What seems
strange to me is that you continue to hear water flowing after you
turn off a water valve. *Almost like that pressure reducing valve is
not letting enough water in to even keep all the pipes pressurized.
are you getting good flow?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Excellent pressure at all fixtures.

On Oct 18, 7:20*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 18, 6:21*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:





On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:15:03 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

wrote:
On Oct 14, 3:00*pm, henrypenta wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:13*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

* - Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
* - They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
* - When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
* - When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
* - It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
* - It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
* - I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

I just seen a water noise priblem on this old house, and the noise was
caused by the water pipes in the celler that was secured by metal
hangers to the 2by's, causeing the noice when the water came through
the pipes because the pipes expand rubbing against the rafters causing
the noise. I thought it might be a faucet washer which would cause
that ratte tat noise, but u said it happ-ens with everything. Is it
cold water only that makes a noise or hot or both?? henry P.S. If the
water pipes are mounted on the rafters u have to get the pipes away
from them, and the hardware selles a pipe connecter that fits over the
pipe and the bracket has 2 holes to nail to the rafter, thus keeping
the water pipes away from the rafters, good luck, henry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It happens with both hot and cold water and with just about every
fixture in the house, as far as I can tell.

It's not expansion - I know the noise you speak off and this is not
that.

P.S. Rafters hold up roofs and are not typically found in cellars.

Maybe it's caused by the pressure reducing valve itself. *What seems
strange to me is that you continue to hear water flowing after you
turn off a water valve. *Almost like that pressure reducing valve is
not letting enough water in to even keep all the pipes pressurized.
are you getting good flow?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Excellent pressure at all fixtures.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check the washing machine
check the dishawasher
ice maker?
humidifier?
check all faucets where there may be connection from the hot to the
cold..

do you have an expansion tank or a pipe filled with air someplace in
the system? sounds like you get a nice oscillation set up, that
might happen if there was air trapped someplace in the system..
although air traps are sometimes installed for the very purpose of
prevenintg water hammer,,,but I could see the air being compressed and
acting like a spring setting up an oscillation

please do come back and tell us after you figure it out.

Mark

On Oct 18, 10:35*pm, Mark wrote:
On Oct 18, 7:20*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Oct 18, 6:21*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:15:03 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

wrote:
On Oct 14, 3:00*pm, henrypenta wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:13*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

* - Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
* - They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
* - When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
* - When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
* - It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
* - It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
* - I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen..

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

I just seen a water noise priblem on this old house, and the noise was
caused by the water pipes in the celler that was secured by metal
hangers to the 2by's, causeing the noice when the water came through
the pipes because the pipes expand rubbing against the rafters causing
the noise. I thought it might be a faucet washer which would cause
that ratte tat noise, but u said it happ-ens with everything. Is it
cold water only that makes a noise or hot or both?? henry P.S. If the
water pipes are mounted on the rafters u have to get the pipes away
from them, and the hardware selles a pipe connecter that fits over the
pipe and the bracket has 2 holes to nail to the rafter, thus keeping
the water pipes away from the rafters, good luck, henry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It happens with both hot and cold water and with just about every
fixture in the house, as far as I can tell.

It's not expansion - I know the noise you speak off and this is not
that.

P.S. Rafters hold up roofs and are not typically found in cellars.

Maybe it's caused by the pressure reducing valve itself. *What seems
strange to me is that you continue to hear water flowing after you
turn off a water valve. *Almost like that pressure reducing valve is
not letting enough water in to even keep all the pipes pressurized.
are you getting good flow?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Excellent pressure at all fixtures.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check the washing machine
check the dishawasher
ice maker?
humidifier?
check all faucets where there may be connection from the hot to the
cold..

do you have an expansion tank or a pipe filled with air someplace in
the system? * sounds like you get a nice oscillation set up, that
might happen if there was air trapped someplace in the system..
although air traps are sometimes installed for the very purpose of
prevenintg water hammer,,,but I could see the air being compressed and
acting like a spring setting up an oscillation

please do come back and tell us after you figure *it out.

Mark- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just an update...

I was home alone this weekend and tried this:

- Saturday night, I closed the main shutoff.
- I opened every faucet, outside hose bibs, flushed the toilets and
turned on the washer.
- I let the system drain for at least 30 minutes.
- I closed all faucets and bibs, including the toilet shutoffs, turned
off the washer.
- I turned on the main shutoff.
- I went to the farthest fixture and turned it on, waiting for the
hissing and spitting to stop.
- I did the same for all fixtures and bibs, working my way back to the
main shutoff.
- I opened the toilet shutoffs.
- I tested a few fixtures - No noise from pipes.
- I spent all day Sunday using various fixtures, took a shower, did
some dishes, washed a car, did some laundry - No noise from pipes.
- Family came home Sunday night. They did some laundry, took some
showers, did some dishes - Bang Bang Bang Bang - Noise was back.

Conclusion:

It's not my plumbing...it's my d*mn family! I guess I'll have to send
them away permanently.

On Oct 20, 5:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 18, 10:35*pm, Mark wrote:





On Oct 18, 7:20*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Oct 18, 6:21*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:15:03 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

wrote:
On Oct 14, 3:00*pm, henrypenta wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:13*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.

The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.

* - Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
* - They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.
* - When a device is turned ON, I'll get 4 or 5 rapid thumps lasting a
second or two.
* - When a device is turned OFF (even slowly turning off a faucet) I'll
get anywhere from 20 to 50 rapid thumps lasting 3 - 7 seconds.
* - It happens with both hot and cold water, single valve devices or
dual faucet fixtures.
* - It happens 85% - 90% percent of the time.
* - I have drained the system and refilled it. I thought it helped,
because it didn't happen for a few hours, then it started again. It may
have just been the 15% - 20% of the times when it doesn't happen.

Anybody heard of this type of water hammer?

I just seen a water noise priblem on this old house, and the noise was
caused by the water pipes in the celler that was secured by metal
hangers to the 2by's, causeing the noice when the water came through
the pipes because the pipes expand rubbing against the rafters causing
the noise. I thought it might be a faucet washer which would cause
that ratte tat noise, but u said it happ-ens with everything. Is it
cold water only that makes a noise or hot or both?? henry P.S. If the
water pipes are mounted on the rafters u have to get the pipes away
from them, and the hardware selles a pipe connecter that fits over the
pipe and the bracket has 2 holes to nail to the rafter, thus keeping
the water pipes away from the rafters, good luck, henry- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It happens with both hot and cold water and with just about every
fixture in the house, as far as I can tell.

It's not expansion - I know the noise you speak off and this is not
that.

P.S. Rafters hold up roofs and are not typically found in cellars.

Maybe it's caused by the pressure reducing valve itself. *What seems
strange to me is that you continue to hear water flowing after you
turn off a water valve. *Almost like that pressure reducing valve is
not letting enough water in to even keep all the pipes pressurized.
are you getting good flow?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Excellent pressure at all fixtures.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check the washing machine
check the dishawasher
ice maker?
humidifier?
check all faucets where there may be connection from the hot to the
cold..

do you have an expansion tank or a pipe filled with air someplace in
the system? * sounds like you get a nice oscillation set up, that
might happen if there was air trapped someplace in the system..
although air traps are sometimes installed for the very purpose of
prevenintg water hammer,,,but I could see the air being compressed and
acting like a spring setting up an oscillation

please do come back and tell us after you figure *it out.

Mark- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just an update...

I was home alone this weekend and tried this:

- Saturday night, I closed the main shutoff.
- I opened every faucet, outside hose bibs, flushed the toilets and
turned on the washer.
- I let the system drain for at least 30 minutes.
- I closed all faucets and bibs, including the toilet shutoffs, turned
off the washer.
- I turned on the main shutoff.
- I went to the farthest fixture and turned it on, waiting for the
hissing and spitting to stop.
- I did the same for all fixtures and bibs, working my way back to the
main shutoff.
- I opened the toilet shutoffs.
- I tested a few fixtures - No noise from pipes.
- I spent all day Sunday using various fixtures, took a shower, did
some dishes, washed a car, did some laundry - No noise from pipes.
- Family came home Sunday night. They did some laundry, took some
showers, did some dishes - Bang Bang Bang Bang - Noise was back.

Conclusion:

It's not my plumbing...it's my d*mn family! I guess I'll have to send
them away permanently.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I believe I have solved the porblem.

I bought a $13 gauge and checked the pressure before and after my
pressure regulator. It was pushing 85 PSI in both locations, telling
me that my regulator wasn't doing squat.

I replaced the pressure regulator and now read 50 PSI inside the
house. It's been over 24 hours with no banging. Previous excursions
into draining the plumbing would eliminate the banging for just a few
hours, so I am hoping that this time it's gone for good.

The biggest pain now is due to the fact that I had to cut into the
drywall ceiling in my basement bathroom to expose the regulator. Now I
have a big hole to patch - flat taping in a small space - the worst
kind to try and hide!

And yes, I considered moving the regulator to a more accessible spot,
but that would involved some serious modifications to the existing
plumbing for something I hope not to replace for another 30 years, if
ever.

wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:55:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Oct 20, 5:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 18, 10:35 pm, Mark wrote:





On Oct 18, 7:20 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 18, 6:21 pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:15:03 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:
On Oct 14, 3:00 pm, henrypenta wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:13 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I know about water hammer - the loud noise associated with a rapidly
closing valve causing the water to slam inside pipes causing them to
bang. I also know most of the solutions - arrestors, expansion tanks,
securing pipes, draining the pipes, etc.
The water hammer I'm experiencing is different.
- Instead of a single loud bang, I get a rapid fire dull
thump-thump-thump almost like the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a machine gun.
- They happen when just about any faucet, toilet, shower, appliance,
etc. is turned ON or OFF.

- Show quoted text -
I believe I have solved the porblem.

I bought a $13 gauge and checked the pressure before and after my
pressure regulator. It was pushing 85 PSI in both locations, telling
me that my regulator wasn't doing squat.

I replaced the pressure regulator and now read 50 PSI inside the
house. It's been over 24 hours with no banging. Previous excursions
into draining the plumbing would eliminate the banging for just a few
hours, so I am hoping that this time it's gone for good.

The biggest pain now is due to the fact that I had to cut into the
drywall ceiling in my basement bathroom to expose the regulator. Now I
have a big hole to patch - flat taping in a small space - the worst
kind to try and hide!

And yes, I considered moving the regulator to a more accessible spot,
but that would involved some serious modifications to the existing
plumbing for something I hope not to replace for another 30 years, if
ever.

When you can't match - contrast. Rather than trying to get that
ceiling looking perfect again, why not install a nice little access
door? If you are not that skilled, you can buy ready made access doors
complete with frame, that fit into a precut hole.



I'd like to think I'm skilled enough to trim out an access panel - even
considered doing it. The problem is that the location would make it
difficult to "contrast" it and make it look good at the same time. It's
right near the door on one side, the fan/heater on another side - but
offset a bit, not centered in the room, etc, etc. I think it would stand
out even more than it should, but I'll keep it in mind.

I'm in no hurry to start mudding, so maybe a different solution will
present itself in the meantime.

Thanks!