Apropos another thread now running in Theater III ("Electrical Code
question:"accessibility"), let me pose this general question to all you
experts out the

Does the code (NEC) require that all junction boxes inside walls be
accessible? Or only certain ones? And why?

Let me first say that I have put junction boxes in walls that were not
accessible. Am I now guilty of a crime because of this?

Does this even make sense? Is the general idea that all such boxes be
accessible in case future additions or repairs become necessary?


--
"In 1964 Barry Goldwater declared: 'Elect me president, and I
will bomb the cities of Vietnam, defoliate the jungles, herd the
population into concentration camps and turn the country into a
wasteland.' But Lyndon Johnson said: 'No! No! No! Don't you dare do
that. Let ME do it.'"

- Characterization (paraphrased) of the 1964 Goldwater/Johnson
presidential race by Professor Irwin Corey, "The World's Foremost
Authority".

On Aug 14, 9:05*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
Apropos another thread now running in Theater III ("Electrical Code
question:"accessibility"), let me pose this general question to all you
experts out the

Does the code (NEC) require that all junction boxes inside walls be
accessible? Or only certain ones? And why?

Let me first say that I have put junction boxes in walls that were not
accessible. Am I now guilty of a crime because of this?

Does this even make sense? Is the general idea that all such boxes be
accessible in case future additions or repairs become necessary?

--
* * * "In 1964 Barry Goldwater declared: 'Elect me president, and I
* will bomb the cities of Vietnam, defoliate the jungles, herd the
* population into concentration camps and turn the country into a
* wasteland.' But Lyndon Johnson said: 'No! No! No! Don't you dare do
* that. Let ME do it.'"

- Characterization (paraphrased) of the 1964 Goldwater/Johnson
presidential race by Professor Irwin Corey, "The World's Foremost
Authority".



I'll take a stab at this, not so much from a code point of view but a
common sense & experience point of view.

It's not so much that boxes be accesible but that the junctions
(splices / connections) made in the junction boxes be accessible.

I can honestly say I've never made a connection not in a box or
covered up a box once the connections were made. I've been sorely
tempted (& really wanted to do it, because of the potential time
savings) but I never did it.


That said, here's why I think it's a really good idea that this
practice is required by code AND why doing the opposite is a real
No_No.

I was recently helping a friend do some wirng at his ex-wife's
house. Instead of using any extension cord to power a sprinkler
timer, I suggested we tie into an existing run. Set a proper box and
GFI. I checked the run at a junction box..good power. Not to be
fooled by a digital meter, I even did a lamp test. Lamp worked!.
Wired GFI up & was good to go.

The following day the sprinkler timer showed no AC power, checked the
receptacle (with a 3 light tester), it now showed open neuttral,
where the day before it showed good?!

Spent the next hour or so trying to figure it out. Removed the
breaker, disconnected the wires & did a resitance check for the hot,
neutral & ground. Sure enough, a bad neutral but the hot was ok. How
could this be? The run was supplied by a single 12-2 w/ G Romex.

Finally, for what ever reason I got out my flashlight and looked up
into the service panel (up behind the meter) & show a couple of yellow
wire nuts!

Whoever had done the work must have cut the Romex too short. And then
decided to splice onto run and bury the splice up inside the panel
hehind the meter ...."no one will ever know"

Well now the splice connection has gone bad & there is no easy way to
access the junction....pull the meter, or more corectly tear into the
interior wall opposite the panel & place those connections in a
junction box.


Based on this experience, I will never even contemplate pulling a
stunt like this.

Like I said, I'm no code expert but this what can happen why this sort
of thing is done.

I guess the question I have is: how accessible is "accessible"?

cheers
Bob

On 8/14/2008 10:53 PM BobK207 spake thus:

On Aug 14, 9:05 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Apropos another thread now running in Theater III ("Electrical Code
question:"accessibility"), let me pose this general question to all you
experts out the

Does the code (NEC) require that all junction boxes inside walls be
accessible? Or only certain ones? And why?

Let me first say that I have put junction boxes in walls that were not
accessible. Am I now guilty of a crime because of this?

Does this even make sense? Is the general idea that all such boxes be
accessible in case future additions or repairs become necessary?

I'll take a stab at this, not so much from a code point of view but a
common sense & experience point of view.

It's not so much that boxes be accesible but that the junctions
(splices / connections) made in the junction boxes be accessible.

I can honestly say I've never made a connection not in a box or
covered up a box once the connections were made. I've been sorely
tempted (& really wanted to do it, because of the potential time
savings) but I never did it.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I took your reply to mean that one should
always make connections inside a junction box.

Believe me, I would *never ever* make a splice in a cable outside a
junction box. Never. No matter how tempting it might be. That wasn't the
thrust of my question.


--
"In 1964 Barry Goldwater declared: 'Elect me president, and I
will bomb the cities of Vietnam, defoliate the jungles, herd the
population into concentration camps and turn the country into a
wasteland.' But Lyndon Johnson said: 'No! No! No! Don't you dare do
that. Let ME do it.'"

- Characterization (paraphrased) of the 1964 Goldwater/Johnson
presidential race by Professor Irwin Corey, "The World's Foremost
Authority".

On Aug 14, 11:04*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 8/14/2008 10:53 PM BobK207 spake thus:





On Aug 14, 9:05 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Apropos another thread now running in Theater III ("Electrical Code
question:"accessibility"), let me pose this general question to all you
experts out the

Does the code (NEC) require that all junction boxes inside walls be
accessible? Or only certain ones? And why?

Let me first say that I have put junction boxes in walls that were not
accessible. Am I now guilty of a crime because of this?

Does this even make sense? Is the general idea that all such boxes be
accessible in case future additions or repairs become necessary?

I'll take a stab *at this, not so much from a code point of view but a
common sense & experience point of view.

It's not so much that boxes be accesible but that the junctions
(splices / connections) made in the junction boxes be accessible.

I can honestly say I've never made a connection not in a box or
covered up a box once the connections were made. * I've been sorely
tempted (& really wanted to do it, because of the potential time
savings) but I never did it.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I took your reply to mean that one should
always make connections inside a junction box.

Believe me, I would *never ever* make a splice in a cable outside a
junction box. Never. No matter how tempting it might be. That wasn't the
thrust of my question.

--
* * * "In 1964 Barry Goldwater declared: 'Elect me president, and I
* will bomb the cities of Vietnam, defoliate the jungles, herd the
* population into concentration camps and turn the country into a
* wasteland.' But Lyndon Johnson said: 'No! No! No! Don't you dare do
* that. Let ME do it.'"

- Characterization (paraphrased) of the 1964 Goldwater/Johnson
presidential race by Professor Irwin Corey, "The World's Foremost
Authority".

Maybe I misunderstood.

Connections need to be made in a box BUT the box must be accessible so
that the connections are accessible. Access to the connections is the
intent I believe.

The "in a box" requirement enforces the accessibility, as long as he
box is accessible.

In my example, the connections are in a box but the accessibility is
greatly compromised. The connections were really hidden, difficult to
find and you need to pull the meter to work on the connections.
Certainly not what the code intended.

Hopefully a code expert will jump in.

cheers
Bob

In article m, David Nebenzahl wrote:
Apropos another thread now running in Theater III ("Electrical Code
question:"accessibility"), let me pose this general question to all you
experts out the

Does the code (NEC) require that all junction boxes inside walls be
accessible? Or only certain ones? And why?

Yes, it does. The reason should be obvious: so that the junctions inside the
box can be reached.

Let me first say that I have put junction boxes in walls that were not
accessible. Am I now guilty of a crime because of this?

Technically, yes, you probably are, if the community where you live has
adopted the NEC as an ordinance.

Does this even make sense? Is the general idea that all such boxes be
accessible in case future additions or repairs become necessary?

Exactly.

In article m, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 8/14/2008 10:53 PM BobK207 spake thus:

On Aug 14, 9:05 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Apropos another thread now running in Theater III ("Electrical Code
question:"accessibility"), let me pose this general question to all you
experts out the

Does the code (NEC) require that all junction boxes inside walls be
accessible? Or only certain ones? And why?

Let me first say that I have put junction boxes in walls that were not
accessible. Am I now guilty of a crime because of this?

Does this even make sense? Is the general idea that all such boxes be
accessible in case future additions or repairs become necessary?

I'll take a stab at this, not so much from a code point of view but a
common sense & experience point of view.

It's not so much that boxes be accesible but that the junctions
(splices / connections) made in the junction boxes be accessible.

I can honestly say I've never made a connection not in a box or
covered up a box once the connections were made. I've been sorely
tempted (& really wanted to do it, because of the potential time
savings) but I never did it.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I took your reply to mean that one should
always make connections inside a junction box.

That's correct.

Believe me, I would *never ever* make a splice in a cable outside a
junction box. Never. No matter how tempting it might be. That wasn't the
thrust of my question.

Here's what the NEC has to say on the matter:

"Boxes ... shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be
rendered accessible without removing any part of the building."

In article , Blattus Slafaly wrote:

We used to just twist, solder and tape connections without boxes in the
past and there were never problems. What makes you think a box is safer?
It may be neater and hide your shoddy work but safer? I doubt it.

A properly installed box *is* safer, because the cables are clamped to the
box. This means that any pulling, tugging, impact, etc. on the cables cannot
possibly dislodge the splice -- definitely not true when there is no box.

Failing to use a box is in and of itself "shoddy word". Not to mention a Code
violation.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Join the UseNet Improvement Project: killfile Google Groups.
http://www.improve-usenet.org

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On Aug 15, 5:35*am, Blattus Slafaly
wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 8/14/2008 10:53 PM BobK207 spake thus:

On Aug 14, 9:05 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Apropos another thread now running in Theater III ("Electrical Code
question:"accessibility"), let me pose this general question to all you
experts out the

Does the code (NEC) require that all junction boxes inside walls be
accessible? Or only certain ones? And why?

Let me first say that I have put junction boxes in walls that were not
accessible. Am I now guilty of a crime because of this?

Does this even make sense? Is the general idea that all such boxes be
accessible in case future additions or repairs become necessary?

I'll take a stab *at this, not so much from a code point of view but a
common sense & experience point of view.

It's not so much that boxes be accesible but that the junctions
(splices / connections) made in the junction boxes be accessible.

I can honestly say I've never made a connection not in a box or
covered up a box once the connections were made. * I've been sorely
tempted (& really wanted to do it, because of the potential time
savings) but I never did it.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I took your reply to mean that one should
always make connections inside a junction box.

Believe me, I would *never ever* make a splice in a cable outside a
junction box. Never. No matter how tempting it might be. That wasn't the
thrust of my question.

We used to just twist, solder and tape connections without boxes in the
past and there were never problems. What makes you think a box is safer?
It may be neater and hide your shoddy work but safer? I doubt it.


yes Ive seen that too..it was comon in the old days...Id even seen
some overheated connections, but the tape used was fire proof as is
all electrical tape, so the connections just
burned off.. no fire.

It seems though that enough fires have been caused by loose and burnt
wire connections that the NEC requires them to be in a box.

On other issues, trouble shooting a system with covered up or hidden
Junction boxes is nasty, creates uncalled for trouble.


Phil scott

--
Blattus Slafaly *? 3 * * *7/8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A properly installed box *is* safer, because the cables are clamped to the
box. This means that any pulling, tugging, impact, etc. on the cables
cannot
possibly dislodge the splice -- definitely not true when there is no box.

Huh?

Sorry, sport, but those plastic boxes routinely used in new home
construction are hardly proof again "any pulling" or "tugging."
Apparently even those staples aren't always necessary: those plactic
"stacks" (or whtever holds several romex cables) are considered "gud enuf."

THE reason for the rule is because splices do go wrong and "they" don't want
them to go wrong inside walls.

In "new" work there just isn't any reason to permit inaccessible splices.
At most they would allow very cheap electricians to use the end of a cable
reel.

But in "old" work at some time I suspect that some "approved" (as in UL,
etc) means of splicing romex type cable will be available. It would
require that the "splice" be: 1) as physicall strong as the un-spliced
cable; and 2) be electrically indistinguishable from the un-spliced calbe.

In old work it's routine that "sh*t happens. Someone wants to move a
ceiling fixture a "little over." What do so? If you can't "stretch" one
or two of the cables you might end up poking a few holes in the plaster and
running a new cable and just abandening the old cable. Maybe the time has
come to open the door for approval of a romex splice and permission from NEC
to use them in "old work" and for repairs when, say, someone accidentally
drills a hold through a romex type calbe when instaling some speaker wires.
I suspect that because an "approved" splice can't be made, quite a few
really sloppy splices are made in the hope that they will only be discovered
when the house is eventually torn down or completely remodeled. And then
who will care?


Failing to use a box is in and of itself "shoddy word". Not to mention a
Code
violation.

In "new work" it will always be considered "shoddy work." But I can see a
place for it with "old work."

--


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:


A properly installed box *is* safer, because the cables are clamped to the
box. This means that any pulling, tugging, impact, etc. on the cables
cannot
possibly dislodge the splice -- definitely not true when there is no box.

Huh?

Sorry, sport, but those plastic boxes routinely used in new home
construction are hardly proof again "any pulling" or "tugging."
Apparently even those staples aren't always necessary: those plactic
"stacks" (or whtever holds several romex cables) are considered "gud enuf."

Note the phrase "properly installed" in my post...

On Aug 16, 6:51*pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
A properly installed box *is* safer, because the cables are clamped to the
box. This means that any pulling, tugging, impact, etc. on the cables
cannot
possibly dislodge the splice -- definitely not true when there is no box.

On Aug 16, 9:58*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:

A properly installed box *is* safer, because the cables are clamped to the
box. This means that any pulling, tugging, impact, etc. on the cables
cannot
possibly dislodge the splice -- definitely not true when there is no box.

Huh?

Sorry, sport, but those plastic boxes routinely used in new home
construction are hardly proof again "any pulling" or "tugging."
Apparently even those staples aren't always necessary: those plactic
"stacks" (or whtever holds several romex cables) are considered "gud enuf."

Note the phrase "properly installed" in my post...

Is there a "promotion" on "using" quote marks this "week"?

R

On 2008-08-17, John Gilmer wrote:

Maybe the time has come to open the door for approval of a romex
splice and permission from NEC to use them in "old work" and for
repairs

Check out this discussion and the products referenced the

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=91617

Cheers, Wayne

"I tend to be an overly paranoid type... worried that a bad splice
could overheat and cause a fire...though Ive never seen one catch fire
they just burn off inside the electrical tape wrap..."

A bad splice can start a fire regardless of where it is.

"Old Work" splices that are hidden in walls would most likely be installin
in "pairs" just as when the power company uses splices in the service wires
and a "new" section would be added between the dressed and prepared ends of
the existing cable.

"Field splices" tend to be quite reliable. They are routinely used is
above and below ground (as in dirt) work. They are even used to connect
deep well water pumps to the supply. Two years ago we pulled our old
water pump. The supply wires (including the splices" have been underwater
for 30 years.

But before the code is changed, there would have to be an "approved"
splicing means a lot better than a few wire nuts and a half roll of plastic
tape.

"comment on that will be appreciated."

You got it.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **