I just bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

Thank you.

JacksonD wrote:
I just bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

Basically, all the biscuits are for is an easy alignment. More than one
8" is definitely overkill.

--

On Jul 27, 10:40*pm, dpb wrote:
JacksonD wrote:
I just bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

Basically, all the biscuits are for is an easy alignment. *More than one
8" is definitely overkill.

--

They've *got* to add strength.
What about all that additionl gluing surface ?

"JacksonD" wrote in message
...
I just bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.

Use the biggest you can get away with. # 20 is good.

How to space them?

Every foot or so if your boards are straight. Every three inches if they're
crooked. Of course, if they're that crooked, you should get new supplies.
Biscuits are just for aligning edges. They add very little strength.

How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?

Far enough that you won't saw into it. Of course, if the edges are hidden,
put them anywhere

After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

Note: Keep your biscuits sealed up. They'll absorb water from the air and
swell, then they won't fit in the slot.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
JacksonD wrote:
I just bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

Basically, all the biscuits are for is an easy alignment. More than one
8" is definitely overkill.

--

I space them about every 12" to 15". Keep away from the edges in case you
have to trim and leave the biscuit exposed if the end is exposed. Don't go
crazy with measuring. Put the two boards in place where you will join them.
Make a pencil line across the two boards and that is the center line for the
joiner.

On Jul 27, 10:52*pm, JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 27, 10:40*pm, dpb wrote:

Basically, all the biscuits are for is an easy alignment. *More than one
8" is definitely overkill.


They've *got* to add strength.
What about all that additionl gluing surface ?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=7651

R

"JacksonD" wrote in message
...
I just bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. I can't tell you from
here what you need. But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. For strength... oh lets not go there.

On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:
"JacksonD" wrote in message

...I just bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.

On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:





"JacksonD" wrote in message

....Ijus t bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? What is the glue on the biscuit for
then?

JacksonD wrote:
....
If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?

They only replace wood which was removed to insert them; how can they
add significant strength over the solid wood which was there previously?

I didn't say "no strength" earlier, I said "mostly for alignment".

It also depends on how you define and test the joint strength and how
the joint is made. In a well-fitting edge joint, the glue bond will be
as strong or stronger than the wood, anyway, in bending. To see this,
make a few and then break them by bending--almost all will fail away
from the joint, not at the joint itself (again, assuming a well-fitting
joint and adequate clamping pressure).

If, otoh, the joint doesn't fit particularly well or isn't clamped
properly, then the biscuit may be essentially the only thing actually
holding the two pieces together.

--

On Jul 28, 9:15*am, JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:





On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:

"JacksonD" wrote in message

....Ijus tbought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? *What is the glue on the biscuit for
then?

I don't know if biscuits add strength or not. I've read articles both
ways. I suppose the application determines if strength is added or
not. Either way a 10 & 20 are so close in size it doesn't matter
which one you use.

Pine boards properly glued are going to fail along the grain long
before the joint fails - biscuited or not. This may not be true if
you have some old growth pine but it still doesn't matter. I use 20s
when gluing panels and the smaller biscuits when 20s won't fit.

On Jul 28, 9:26*am, dpb wrote:
JacksonD wrote:

...

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?

They only replace wood which was removed to insert them; how can they
add significant strength over the solid wood which was there previously?

I didn't say "no strength" earlier, I said "mostly for alignment".

It also depends on how you define and test the joint strength and how
the joint is made. *In a well-fitting edge joint, the glue bond will be
as strong or stronger than the wood, anyway, in bending. *To see this,
make a few and then break them by bending--almost all will fail away
from the joint, not at the joint itself (again, assuming a well-fitting
joint and adequate clamping pressure).

If, otoh, the joint doesn't fit particularly well or isn't clamped
properly, then the biscuit may be essentially the only thing actually
holding the two pieces together.

--

"They only replace wood which was removed to insert them; how can
they
add significant strength over the solid wood which was there
previously? "

Because the biscuits *span* the joint.
The wood they replaced didn't.
I'm assuming the fibers in the biscuits run across the joint.
Otherwise I would expect biscuit could fracture lengthwise just like
the wood.

Granted that the work will ultimately break along the fibers parallel
to the joint, the biscuit ought to hold the fibers immediately
adjacent to the joint together. So at least the failire won't be
within an inch from the joint on either side.

This is all really more than I wanted to know. My intent was to use
the biscuits for alignment, as intended.

JacksonD wrote:
....
Because the biscuits *span* the joint.
The wood they replaced didn't.

But the glue is stronger than the wood in most cases anyway (again,
well-made, etc., etce., ...)

I'm assuming the fibers in the biscuits run across the joint.
....

Actually, they're laminated (normally 3-ply) but they're quite thin so
there's not much material there. It is that additional cross-grain that
is what little actual strength difference there is which owing to the
size isn't really all that much...

This is all really more than I wanted to know. My intent was to use
the biscuits for alignment, as intended.

Well, you asked...

--

Limp Arbor wrote:
....
Pine boards properly glued are going to fail along the grain long
before the joint fails - biscuited or not. This may not be true if
you have some old growth pine but it still doesn't matter. ...

Tests consistently show the same to be true for well-made joints in
virtually all woods for anywhere from 60% up of all joints. FWW has
published many tests of various types from the simple butt to M&T in
various woods w/ varying manufacturing tolerances, gluing pressures,
glues, etc., etc., ... Good joints w/ PVA (yellow) glue are as good as
or better than the wood in virtually all cases -- that is, the wood
fails before or in conjunction w/ the glue rather than the glue alone
failing at the joint line(s).

Hence my assessment the question of biscuits and strength is moot anyway
as the joint is likely already as strong as the material.

--

dpb wrote:
....
Actually, they're laminated (normally 3-ply) but they're quite thin so
there's not much material there. It is that additional cross-grain that
is what little actual strength difference there is which owing to the
size isn't really all that much...

And, of course, in the case of pine or similar, that the biscuits are
birch or similar wood of somewhat stronger properties--but they're still
small in comparison so it's a minor effect.

One last note is that they can be used in places for mechanical strength
where otherwise there wouldn't be any--end to side grain, or other
places where a long to long grain joint isn't possible...

--

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:15:06 -0700 (PDT), JacksonD
wrote:

On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:





"JacksonD" wrote in message

...Ijust bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? What is the glue on the biscuit for
then?


It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell inside the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. For thinner stock biscuits
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the swelling.
There have been situations where I left the biscuit float due to
possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard ends).

On Jul 28, 10:59*am, Phisherman wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:15:06 -0700 (PDT), JacksonD
wrote:





On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:

"JacksonD" wrote in message

...Ijust bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one..

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? *What is the glue on the biscuit for
then?

It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. *The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell inside the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. *For thinner stock biscuits
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the swelling.
There have been situations where I left the biscuit float due to
possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard ends).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Phisherman:

Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.
Thank you.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.
------------
Flat, not straight. Obviously they have to be straight or the joint won't
fit; but often they aren't flat, and the biscuits (and an occasional clamp)
force them to comply.

On Jul 28, 11:41*am, JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 10:59*am, Phisherman wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:15:06 -0700 (PDT), JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:
"JacksonD" wrote in message

Ijustboughta biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet..

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? *What is the glue on the biscuit for
then?

It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. *The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell inside the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. *For thinner stock biscuits
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the swelling.
There have been situations where I left the biscuit float due to
possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard ends).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Phisherman:

Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.
Thank you.

Hmmm. It appears we have a troll on our hands. Either that or
someone who has a modicum of knowledge and just likes to argue.

If you don't understand how a breadboard end's cross grain is a
different situation, forget the biscuits and just cut up some plywood
and iron on some edge tape.

R

On Jul 28, 12:12*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 28, 11:41*am, JacksonD wrote:





On Jul 28, 10:59*am, Phisherman wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:15:06 -0700 (PDT), JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:
"JacksonD" wrote in message

Ijustboughta biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? *What is the glue on the biscuit for
then?

It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. *The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell inside the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. *For thinner stock biscuits
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the swelling.
There have been situations where I left the biscuit float due to
possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard ends).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Phisherman:

Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.
Thank you.

Hmmm. *It appears we have a troll on our hands. *Either that or
someone who has a modicum of knowledge and just likes to argue.

If you don't understand how a breadboard end's cross grain is a
different situation, forget the biscuits and just cut up some plywood
and iron on some edge tape.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 28, 12:12*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 28, 11:41*am, JacksonD wrote:





On Jul 28, 10:59*am, Phisherman wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:15:06 -0700 (PDT), JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:
"JacksonD" wrote in message

Ijustboughta biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? *What is the glue on the biscuit for
then?

It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. *The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell inside the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. *For thinner stock biscuits
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the swelling.
There have been situations where I left the biscuit float due to
possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard ends).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Phisherman:

Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.
Thank you.

Hmmm. *It appears we have a troll on our hands. *Either that or
someone who has a modicum of knowledge and just likes to argue.

If you don't understand how a breadboard end's cross grain is a
different situation, forget the biscuits and just cut up some plywood
and iron on some edge tape.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, the only "breadboard" I know about is for prototyping
electronics.
My question was honest and I don't care for your suggestion.
As far as I'm concerned you (RicodJour) can lose the attitude and cut
up some plywood and put it up your ass.

JacksonD wrote:
....
Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.

Might look up "breadboard" via google but the simple answer is it's the
generic name for the typical breadboard construction (hence the name,
obviously) of a lengthwise piece across the end of a piece at
cross-grain direction. Owing to the tendency of wood to move
preferentially perpendicular to grain direction as opposed to with
grain, this "cross-grain" joint is prone to failure if attempt to glue
it the whole length. Hence, one will find many techniques to get around
the problem--pinning only in the middle, tenons w/ oversized mortises,
screws in slotted holes, etc., etc., ... The unglued biscuit would be
similar in concept to the loose M&T.

BTW, please trim to reasonable context...
--

On Jul 28, 2:12*pm, JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 12:12*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 28, 11:41*am, JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 10:59*am, Phisherman wrote:

It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. *The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell inside the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. *For thinner stock biscuits
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the swelling.
There have been situations where I left the biscuit float due to
possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard ends).

Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.
Thank you.

Hmmm. *It appears we have a troll on our hands. *Either that or
someone who has a modicum of knowledge and just likes to argue.

If you don't understand how a breadboard end's cross grain is a
different situation, forget the biscuits and just cut up some plywood
and iron on some edge tape.

Actually, the only "breadboard" I know about is for prototyping
electronics.
My question was honest and I don't care for your suggestion.
As far as I'm concerned you (RicodJour) can lose the attitude and cut
up some plywood and put it up your ass.

Gee, you're a sensitive thing. Any particular word can have different
meanings based on context. Breadboard is one such word. Please note
that the group you are posting to is alt.home.repair not
alt.computer.*, which should indicate Phisherman wasn't talking about
a computer component. Your apparent inability or unwillingness to
DAGS is scary. I would have said stupid, but you're sensitive, and I
don't want to upset you any more.

There is unanimous consensus that the main purpose of the biscuit is
to aid in alignment.
You've already been told that the glued joint is plenty strong on its
own.
You've already been told that there is some dispute whether the
biscuit adds any strength at all.
You apparently don't understand that a biscuit slot is appreciably
bigger than the the biscuit and that woodworkers glue does a **** poor
job of filling gaps.

Your gut feeling that a biscuit has *got* to add strength means
exactly nothing. You obviously don't know about biscuits or you
wouldn't be asking. You don't know about the strength of edged glued
joints or you would realize the inanity of trying to make a joint that
is already stronger than the wood even stronger.

If you had asked about the additional strength in a biscuited edge to
end joint, that would be a different matter. That question has also
been answered.

Perhaps you aren't aware that you can Google specific newsgroups and
that such questions as yours have already been asked and answered
repeatedly. You can get your question answered and all of the
background with competing viewpoints in an easy to digest thread
without waiting for replies.

I'm sorry if you feel I've been rough on you, but I'm all out of the
little Gerber's bottles and bibs. I don't particularly feel like
spoon feeding. Your question has been answered. If you don't like
the answer, you've been given more than enough information to search
to your heart's content until you find an answer that meets with your
preconceived notion.

R

JacksonD wrote:


They've *got* to add strength.
What about all that additionl gluing surface ?

Eh? No. Modern wood glues and good clamping produce a joint who's strength
exceeds the strength of the wood around it. So failure will occur in the wood
not the glue joint. -- Doug

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT), JacksonD
wrote:

On Jul 28, 10:59*am, Phisherman wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:15:06 -0700 (PDT), JacksonD
wrote:





On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:

"JacksonD" wrote in message

...Ijust bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or not. *I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together evenly so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your boards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are not (and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly) then you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't tell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as you can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges will be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut through one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got for nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't see that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much so if
biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would give over a 10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter what size
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then why do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? *What is the glue on the biscuit for
then?

It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. *The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell inside the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. *For thinner stock biscuits
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the swelling.
There have been situations where I left the biscuit float due to
possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard ends).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Phisherman:

Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.
Thank you.


Breadboard ends are cross-grain with the table. Without some movement
the table would split or crack. I use a tongue and groove joint but
you could use loose biscuits. Shorter (maybe less than 10")
cross-grain joints usually don't present an issue with seasonal wood
movement.

On Jul 28, 4:50*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 28, 2:12*pm, JacksonD wrote:





On Jul 28, 12:12*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 28, 11:41*am, JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 10:59*am, Phisherman wrote:

It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. *The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell inside the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. *For thinner stock biscuits
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the swelling.
There have been situations where I left the biscuit float due to
possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard ends).

Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.
Thank you.

Hmmm. *It appears we have a troll on our hands. *Either that or
someone who has a modicum of knowledge and just likes to argue.

If you don't understand how a breadboard end's cross grain is a
different situation, forget the biscuits and just cut up some plywood
and iron on some edge tape.

Actually, the only "breadboard" I know about is for prototyping
electronics.
My question was honest and I don't care for your suggestion.
As far as I'm concerned you (RicodJour) can lose the attitude and cut
up some plywood and put it up your ass.

Gee, you're a sensitive thing. *Any particular word can have different
meanings based on context. *Breadboard is one such word. *Please note
that the group you are posting to is alt.home.repair not
alt.computer.*, which should indicate Phisherman wasn't talking about
a computer component. *Your apparent inability or unwillingness to
DAGS is scary. *I would have said stupid, but you're sensitive, and I
don't want to upset you any more.

There is unanimous consensus that the main purpose of the biscuit is
to aid in alignment.
You've already been told that the glued joint is plenty strong on its
own.
You've already been told that there is some dispute whether the
biscuit adds any strength at all.
You apparently don't understand that a biscuit slot is appreciably
bigger than the the biscuit and that woodworkers glue does a **** poor
job of filling gaps.

Your gut feeling that a biscuit has *got* to add strength means
exactly nothing. *You obviously don't know about biscuits or you
wouldn't be asking. *You don't know about the strength of edged glued
joints or you would realize the inanity of trying to make a joint that
is already stronger than the wood even stronger.

If you had asked about the additional strength in a biscuited edge to
end joint, that would be a different matter. *That question has also
been answered.

Perhaps you aren't aware that you can Google specific newsgroups and
that such questions as yours have already been asked and answered
repeatedly. *You can get your question answered and all of the
background with competing viewpoints in an easy to digest thread
without waiting for replies.

I'm sorry if you feel I've been rough on you, but I'm all out of the
little Gerber's bottles and bibs. *I don't particularly feel like
spoon feeding. *Your question has been answered. *If you don't like
the answer, you've been given more than enough information to search
to your heart's content until you find an answer that meets with your
preconceived notion.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not quite sure I'm getting your meaning.
Please elaborate.

On Jul 27, 9:35*pm, JacksonD wrote:
I just bought a biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen cabinet.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

Thank you.

Post this on rec.woodworking. Biscuits are for birdhouses. For real
joinery use dowels or mill glue joints on the boards.

Joe

JacksonD wrote in
:

On Jul 28, 12:12*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 28, 11:41*am, JacksonD wrote:





On Jul 28, 10:59*am, Phisherman wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:15:06 -0700 (PDT), JacksonD wrote:
On Jul 28, 9:05*am, Limp Arbor wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:27*pm, "jack" wrote:
"JacksonD" wrote in message

Ijustboughta biscuit joiner.
Need to join (salvaged) 3/4" pine boards to make kitchen
cabin
et.

What size biscuits to use?
I'm guessing #20s.
How to space them?
How far center of first biscuit from edge of board?
After that. how far to center of next one etc. ?

There is controversy over whether biscuit add strength or
not.
*I won't get
into it.

The primary use is alignment; getting your boards together
evenl
y so you
don't have to plane/sand 1/8" off to get them even. *If your
b
oards are
perfectly flat, 2 or 3 biscuits will be fine. *If they are
not
(and even
properly jointed and planed board can warp pretty quickly)
then
you will
need more than that to keep things reasonably even. *I can't
t
ell you from
here what you need. *But get them as close to the edge as
you
can because
that is where alignment is needed the most. *If the edges
will
be seen, be
careful because biscuit scars can't be hidden if you cut
through
one.

I ran out of 20s and have been using a big box of 10s I got
for
nothing at
an auction. *If you only want them for alignment, I can't
see
that it makes
a difference. *For strength... oh lets not go there.

Oh come on lets go there. *Somebody move the 'do biscuits add
strength' thread to rec.woodworking. *It will be fun.

To me the depth difference between a 10 & 20 isn't that much
so if biscuits do add strength the added strength a 20 would
give over a
10
is insignificant. *Use whatever you have.

If the edges of your boards aren't straight it won't matter
what s
ize
you use because the joint will most likely fail.- Hide quoted
text
-

- Show quoted text -

If biscuits add no strength, and are solely for alignment, then
why
do
we glue them in?
Why not just let them "float"? *What is the glue on the biscuit
fo
r
then?

It adds *some* strength, but it is the glue that does the holding
power. *The glue on the biscuit causes the biscuit to swell
inside
the
slot helping the lock the joint in place. *For thinner stock
biscui
ts
should not be used as this may cause a raised area from the
swelling. There have been situations where I left the biscuit
float due to possible excess wood movement (eg, breadboard
ends).- Hide quoted tex
t -

- Show quoted text -

Phisherman:

Please explain why breadboard end is a special case.
Thank you.

Hmmm. *It appears we have a troll on our hands. *Either that or
someone who has a modicum of knowledge and just likes to argue.

If you don't understand how a breadboard end's cross grain is a
different situation, forget the biscuits and just cut up some plywood
and iron on some edge tape.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, the only "breadboard" I know about is for prototyping
electronics.
My question was honest and I don't care for your suggestion.
As far as I'm concerned you (RicodJour) can lose the attitude and cut
up some plywood and put it up your ass.




RicodJour:

As far as I'm concerned you (RicodJour) can lose the attitude and cut
up some plywood and put it up your ass.

If you choose to accept, please post a vid. It would be interesting to
observe :-)

In article , dpb wrote:
JacksonD wrote:
...

Actually, they're laminated (normally 3-ply) but they're quite thin so
there's not much material there. It is that additional cross-grain that
is what little actual strength difference there is which owing to the
size isn't really all that much...


That is not correct. They are made from solid wood with the grain running at
45 degrees to their length. They are compressed as part of the manufacturing
process so that when water based glue is used, they expand to make a tight
fit. When used it long grain to long grain joints, they do not add
significantly to the strength of the joint, but in but joints or joints
where one surface is end grain, they do add considerable strength.
--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Larry W wrote:
In article , dpb wrote:
...

Actually, they're laminated (normally 3-ply) ...

That is not correct. They are made from solid wood with the grain running at
45 degrees to their length. They are compressed as part of the manufacturing
process so that when water based glue is used, they expand to make a tight
fit. When used it long grain to long grain joints, they do not add
significantly to the strength of the joint, but in but joints or joints
where one surface is end grain, they do add considerable strength.

Those I have are clearly laminated (and compressed) -- one can see it on
the edges. Who manufactured these I don't know; they were a generic
3000 mixed selection of 1000/1000/1000 0/10/20 and I couldn't even say
where I got them anymore. I don't use biscuits much so this is the only
stash I've had in years so made assumption they all are.

The rest I also said in one post or another...

--