I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John

John wrote:
I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John

Not all panels can take the double breakers in every slot. There should
be a label on the panel door that will indicate what the possible
combinations are.
There may be other issues as well such as no more empty connection slots
on the neutral and/or ground bus bars.

Kevin

Kevin Ricks wrote:
John wrote:
I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John

Not all panels can take the double breakers in every slot. There should
be a label on the panel door that will indicate what the possible
combinations are.
There may be other issues as well such as no more empty connection slots
on the neutral and/or ground bus bars.

Kevin

Forgot to add another possibility: Often times the DW/Disp are wired
with an 'Edison' circuit which means that they have a shared neutral. IF
this is the case then the 2 hots MUST be connected to opposite poles.
Also the 2 breaker handles are supposed to be tied together (like a 240V
breaker), so that if one trips the other will also.

If you put both the circuits on a double (single slot) breaker then both
will only be connected to one side which could overload the neutral on
that circuit.

To verify this look at the 2 hot wires going to the DW/Disp breakers in
the panel. If there is a red wire and black wire + ONE white wire going
into a single cable, then you do have a shared neutral circuit. You
could also look in the DW/Disp outlet box. 3 wire cable (red, black ,
white, + bare) is almost always used on that type of circuit.

If it is not a shared neutral circuit and your panel can take more
doubles then you are OK.
Kevin

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:30:43 -0700 (PDT), John
wrote:

I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John


He may have "saved" those two for the feeder breaker to the sub you
need.

You should do a load calculation before you do that to be sure you
don't need a service upgrade

I agree, there probably are two additional 1/2 spaces, that he would prefer
to use for a sub panel main

"Kevin Ricks" wrote in message
...
Kevin Ricks wrote:
John wrote:
I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John

Not all panels can take the double breakers in every slot. There should
be a label on the panel door that will indicate what the possible
combinations are.
There may be other issues as well such as no more empty connection slots
on the neutral and/or ground bus bars.

Kevin

Forgot to add another possibility: Often times the DW/Disp are wired with
an 'Edison' circuit which means that they have a shared neutral. IF this
is the case then the 2 hots MUST be connected to opposite poles. Also the
2 breaker handles are supposed to be tied together (like a 240V breaker),
so that if one trips the other will also.

If you put both the circuits on a double (single slot) breaker then both
will only be connected to one side which could overload the neutral on
that circuit.

To verify this look at the 2 hot wires going to the DW/Disp breakers in
the panel. If there is a red wire and black wire + ONE white wire going
into a single cable, then you do have a shared neutral circuit. You could
also look in the DW/Disp outlet box. 3 wire cable (red, black , white, +
bare) is almost always used on that type of circuit.

If it is not a shared neutral circuit and your panel can take more doubles
then you are OK.
Kevin

I hate to even discuss edison circuits with novices. They get screwed up
more than anything else in house wiring.

Depending upon the make and model of the panel, GE makes double pole half
sized breakers, and Murray makes twin double pole quads

On Jul 10, 11:30*pm, John wrote:
I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John

What service is your main panel? If its 100A, then maybe your
electrician meant to change the panel to a 200A service. You might be
able to change the single pole breaker to a double pole, but your main
service might not be able to handle everything being used at once.

On Jul 11, 2:01*am, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:30:43 -0700 (PDT), John
wrote:

I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John

He may have "saved" those two for the feeder breaker to the sub you
need.

You should do a load calculation before you do that to be sure you
don't need a service upgrade

I did some checking and it seems kevin is correct, those two slots
wont take a double. Out of curiosity how would I do load calculation?
Thanks again for all the help.

On Jul 11, 12:19*pm, Mikepier wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:30*pm, John wrote:

I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John

What service is your main panel? If its 100A, then maybe your
electrician meant to change the panel to a 200A service. You might be
able to change the single pole breaker to a double pole, but your main
service might not be able to handle everything being used at once.

In other words there are double (or TWO POLE) circuit breakers and
there are, for want of a better description, what can be desiganated
(DOUBLE) single pole circuit breakers.

If you run out of breaker positions you can perhaps use some DOUBLE
single pole breakers, each one of these 'doubles' will take the place
of one existing (SINGLE POLE) breaker but will allow the doubling up
of, for example two lighting or outlet circuits circuits. Thus
'saving' another single pole position.

But the DOUBLE single pole breakers will only provide for 115 volt
circuits; no good for anything that needs 230 volts, such as a hot
water heater, heavy AC, electric cooking stove etc.

However by doubling up say, some lighting circuits an electrician may
be able to 'free up' a couple of slots that can accommodate maybe one
TWO/DOUBLE POLE breakers for a 230 volt circuits.

It sounds as if your panel/service maybe old and at capacity? Capacity
being a) Sufficient breakers to meet electrical code and your
insurance requirements for the number of circuits and b) Sufficient
capacity to carry the electrical loads without tripping circuit
breakers and or catching fire!

Please be careful. And if you get into 3 wire 230/115 volt 'Edison'
circuit wiring get electrical help.

In our house we have a couple of secondary panels; one, near the
kitchen is fed by a 100 amp (double pole) breaker in the main panel.
Another 50 amp (double pole) breaker feeds a panel in our store room/
garage. From these secondary panels, all wired to code; circuits go to
outlets, lights and appliances in those house areas. A third 30 amp
feeds our basement workshop; where a single fused switch allows
everything in the workshop to be shut off.

On Jul 11, 4:49*pm, terry wrote:
On Jul 11, 12:19*pm, Mikepier wrote:



On Jul 10, 11:30*pm, John wrote:

I need some help with a electrical question. A few years ago I had
some electrical work done and the new wiring used up all my empty
slots as well as having to change most of my breakers to double ones.
At that time the electrician told me that if I ever wanted any more
wiring Id need a sub panel installed. I still have two single pole
breakers left, one for the dishwasher and one for the disposal. Why
cant these be changed to double pole giving me two more lines?

How can I verify that the panel is maxed out?

Thanks
John

What service is your main panel? If its 100A, then maybe your
electrician meant to change the panel to a 200A service. You might be
able to change the single pole breaker to a double pole, but your main
service might not be able to handle everything being used at once.

In other words there are double (or TWO POLE) circuit breakers and
there are, for want of a better description, what *can be desiganated
(DOUBLE) single pole circuit breakers.

If you run out of breaker positions you can perhaps use some DOUBLE
single pole breakers, each one of these 'doubles' will take the place
of one existing (SINGLE POLE) breaker but will allow the doubling up
of, for example two lighting or outlet circuits circuits. Thus
'saving' another single pole position.

But the DOUBLE single pole breakers will only provide for 115 volt
circuits; no good for anything that needs 230 volts, such as a hot
water heater, heavy AC, electric cooking stove etc.

However by doubling up say, some lighting circuits an electrician may
be able to 'free up' a couple of slots that can accommodate maybe one
TWO/DOUBLE POLE breakers for a 230 volt circuits.

It sounds as if your panel/service maybe old and at capacity? Capacity
being a) Sufficient breakers to meet electrical code and your
insurance requirements for the number of circuits and b) Sufficient
capacity to carry the electrical loads without tripping circuit
breakers and or catching fire!

Please be careful. And if you get into 3 wire 230/115 volt 'Edison'
circuit wiring get electrical help.

In our house we have a couple of secondary panels; one, near the
kitchen is fed by a 100 amp (double pole) breaker in the main panel.
Another 50 amp (double pole) breaker feeds a panel in our store room/
garage. From these secondary panels, all wired to code; circuits go to
outlets, lights and appliances in those house areas. A third 30 amp
feeds our basement workshop; where a single fused switch allows
everything in the workshop to be shut off.

Thanks again for all the helpful information.