In my apartment's bathroom, there is a standard sink with a standard-
type Moen faucet. You lift up this oblong handle to open the water
valve(s), and you regulate temperature by turning it counterclockwise
(hot) or clockwise (cold). Pretty standard. Under the sink, I see
the two expected water lines that go to little shutoff valves which
lead into the wall. I can't see into the walls, of course, but I
would assume that this faucet would be plumbed like anyone would
expect.

So there's some bizarre things that will happen.

Scenario 1:
I turn on the water, and what should be hot water (all the way
counterclockwise) is ice cold. In fact, it is colder than the 'cold'
water by about 20 degrees. Sometimes, if you reach over and flush the
toilet, it becomes scalding hot until the toilet stops running, then
resumes its ice coldness. Sometimes flushing the toilet has no
effect. Eventually the hot water heats up, and usually the faucet
acts like normal after that.

Scenario 2:
I turn on the water, and it is scalding hot, even if I turn the dial
all the way clockwise to make it cold. However, it remains scalding
hot for about two minutes of constant running. Usually it will return
to normal, but sometimes it will act as though the temps are
reversed- hot becomes cold and cold becomes hot. After several
minutes of running (and not touching the dial) the water becomes
lukewarm and then returns to its previous temp. The faucet acts like
normal after that, with the hot and cold on the correct sides and with
proper control of the water.

Scenario 3:
The faucet will periodically 'just work' like any other straight
away. Hot is hot, cold is cold, and there is no temperature shifting.


I know that apartments are known for water temp/pressure issues due to
many people using it at once. However, this particular building I'm
in has only 8 units, and I can pretty much hear when anyone is using
water. All three above scenarios happen at any given time of the day
between 6am and 3am. There's no rhyme or reason other than one of the
three scenarios *always* happen.

Since it is an apartment, it can probably not be fixed. But I am
truly baffled by all this. Any ideas how this can happen?

thx

"phaeton" wrote in message
...
In my apartment's bathroom, there is a standard sink with a standard-
type Moen faucet. You lift up this oblong handle to open the water
valve(s), and you regulate temperature by turning it counterclockwise
(hot) or clockwise (cold). Pretty standard. Under the sink, I see
the two expected water lines that go to little shutoff valves which
lead into the wall. I can't see into the walls, of course, but I
would assume that this faucet would be plumbed like anyone would
expect.

So there's some bizarre things that will happen.

Scenario 1:
I turn on the water, and what should be hot water (all the way
counterclockwise) is ice cold. In fact, it is colder than the 'cold'
water by about 20 degrees. Sometimes, if you reach over and flush the
toilet, it becomes scalding hot until the toilet stops running, then
resumes its ice coldness. Sometimes flushing the toilet has no
effect. Eventually the hot water heats up, and usually the faucet
acts like normal after that.

Scenario 2:
I turn on the water, and it is scalding hot, even if I turn the dial
all the way clockwise to make it cold. However, it remains scalding
hot for about two minutes of constant running. Usually it will return
to normal, but sometimes it will act as though the temps are
reversed- hot becomes cold and cold becomes hot. After several
minutes of running (and not touching the dial) the water becomes
lukewarm and then returns to its previous temp. The faucet acts like
normal after that, with the hot and cold on the correct sides and with
proper control of the water.

Scenario 3:
The faucet will periodically 'just work' like any other straight
away. Hot is hot, cold is cold, and there is no temperature shifting.


I know that apartments are known for water temp/pressure issues due to
many people using it at once. However, this particular building I'm
in has only 8 units, and I can pretty much hear when anyone is using
water. All three above scenarios happen at any given time of the day
between 6am and 3am. There's no rhyme or reason other than one of the
three scenarios *always* happen.

Since it is an apartment, it can probably not be fixed. But I am
truly baffled by all this. Any ideas how this can happen?

thx
Other than the "ice cold water", all of your symptoms are commonly found
when a single valve faucet leaks internally between the hot and cold sides.
Variation in pressures will cause the hot water to leak into the cold pipe
at times. At other times the cold water will leak into the hot pipe. This
can continue throughout a house, so that other faucets will momentarily get
the wrong water temperature.

The solution is to correctly install a new cartridge or whatever the faucet
uses to control the water, unless there is a defect in the body in which
case replace the faucet. You can test this by turning off the water to only
one of the supply lines and disconnecting the line. You will get water out
of the faucet side of the disconnected line if the faucet leaks internally.
It may not leak in all positions of the handle but there would be a position
where it would leak without water coming out of the faucet itself.

Don Young

Don Young

"Don Young" wrote in message
webinternetservicesprovideinc...

"phaeton" wrote in message
...
In my apartment's bathroom, there is a standard sink with a standard-
type Moen faucet. You lift up this oblong handle to open the water
valve(s), and you regulate temperature by turning it counterclockwise
(hot) or clockwise (cold). Pretty standard. Under the sink, I see
the two expected water lines that go to little shutoff valves which
lead into the wall. I can't see into the walls, of course, but I
would assume that this faucet would be plumbed like anyone would
expect.

So there's some bizarre things that will happen.

Scenario 1:
I turn on the water, and what should be hot water (all the way
counterclockwise) is ice cold. In fact, it is colder than the 'cold'
water by about 20 degrees. Sometimes, if you reach over and flush the
toilet, it becomes scalding hot until the toilet stops running, then
resumes its ice coldness. Sometimes flushing the toilet has no
effect. Eventually the hot water heats up, and usually the faucet
acts like normal after that.

Scenario 2:
I turn on the water, and it is scalding hot, even if I turn the dial
all the way clockwise to make it cold. However, it remains scalding
hot for about two minutes of constant running. Usually it will return
to normal, but sometimes it will act as though the temps are
reversed- hot becomes cold and cold becomes hot. After several
minutes of running (and not touching the dial) the water becomes
lukewarm and then returns to its previous temp. The faucet acts like
normal after that, with the hot and cold on the correct sides and with
proper control of the water.

Scenario 3:
The faucet will periodically 'just work' like any other straight
away. Hot is hot, cold is cold, and there is no temperature shifting.


I know that apartments are known for water temp/pressure issues due to
many people using it at once. However, this particular building I'm
in has only 8 units, and I can pretty much hear when anyone is using
water. All three above scenarios happen at any given time of the day
between 6am and 3am. There's no rhyme or reason other than one of the
three scenarios *always* happen.

Since it is an apartment, it can probably not be fixed. But I am
truly baffled by all this. Any ideas how this can happen?

thx
Other than the "ice cold water", all of your symptoms are commonly found
when a single valve faucet leaks internally between the hot and cold
sides. Variation in pressures will cause the hot water to leak into the
cold pipe at times. At other times the cold water will leak into the hot
pipe. This can continue throughout a house, so that other faucets will
momentarily get the wrong water temperature.

The solution is to correctly install a new cartridge or whatever the
faucet uses to control the water, unless there is a defect in the body in
which case replace the faucet. You can test this by turning off the water
to only one of the supply lines and disconnecting the line. You will get
water out of the faucet side of the disconnected line if the faucet leaks
internally. It may not leak in all positions of the handle but there would
be a position where it would leak without water coming out of the faucet
itself.

Don Young

It's not possible for the water to be 20° colder than the water coming into
your house. So what you think is cold is actually 20° warmer than the water
coming from the street. Completely consistant with the internal leak
described by Don Young.
--
Peace,
BobJ

Don Young wrote:
"phaeton" wrote in message
...
In my apartment's bathroom, there is a standard sink with a standard-
type Moen faucet. You lift up this oblong handle to open the water
valve(s), and you regulate temperature by turning it counterclockwise
(hot) or clockwise (cold). Pretty standard. Under the sink, I see
the two expected water lines that go to little shutoff valves which
lead into the wall. I can't see into the walls, of course, but I
would assume that this faucet would be plumbed like anyone would
expect.

So there's some bizarre things that will happen.

Scenario 1:
I turn on the water, and what should be hot water (all the way
counterclockwise) is ice cold. In fact, it is colder than the 'cold'
water by about 20 degrees. Sometimes, if you reach over and flush the
toilet, it becomes scalding hot until the toilet stops running, then
resumes its ice coldness. Sometimes flushing the toilet has no
effect. Eventually the hot water heats up, and usually the faucet
acts like normal after that.

Scenario 2:
I turn on the water, and it is scalding hot, even if I turn the dial
all the way clockwise to make it cold. However, it remains scalding
hot for about two minutes of constant running. Usually it will return
to normal, but sometimes it will act as though the temps are
reversed- hot becomes cold and cold becomes hot. After several
minutes of running (and not touching the dial) the water becomes
lukewarm and then returns to its previous temp. The faucet acts like
normal after that, with the hot and cold on the correct sides and with
proper control of the water.

Scenario 3:
The faucet will periodically 'just work' like any other straight
away. Hot is hot, cold is cold, and there is no temperature shifting.


I know that apartments are known for water temp/pressure issues due to
many people using it at once. However, this particular building I'm
in has only 8 units, and I can pretty much hear when anyone is using
water. All three above scenarios happen at any given time of the day
between 6am and 3am. There's no rhyme or reason other than one of the
three scenarios *always* happen.

Since it is an apartment, it can probably not be fixed. But I am
truly baffled by all this. Any ideas how this can happen?

thx
Other than the "ice cold water", all of your symptoms are commonly found
when a single valve faucet leaks internally between the hot and cold sides.
Variation in pressures will cause the hot water to leak into the cold pipe
at times. At other times the cold water will leak into the hot pipe. This
can continue throughout a house, so that other faucets will momentarily get
the wrong water temperature.

The solution is to correctly install a new cartridge or whatever the faucet
uses to control the water, unless there is a defect in the body in which
case replace the faucet. You can test this by turning off the water to only
one of the supply lines and disconnecting the line. You will get water out
of the faucet side of the disconnected line if the faucet leaks internally.
It may not leak in all positions of the handle but there would be a position
where it would leak without water coming out of the faucet itself.

Don Young

Don Young



In addition to a leaky cartridge there are other situations which can
allow cold & hot mixing in the pipes.
- A shower head that has a shutoff on the head and someone left the
water faucets turned on with head turned off.
- A janitors wash out sink where there is a garden hose with hand
sprayer attached and valves left open.
- A faulty washing machine valve.
- Portable dish washer where the water line is attached to the kitchen
sink faucet.
There may be others.

Kevin

On Jun 21, 10:29*am, Kevin Ricks wrote:
Don Young wrote:
"phaeton" wrote in message
....
In my apartment's bathroom, there is a standard sink with a standard-
type Moen faucet. *You lift up this oblong handle to open the water
valve(s), and you regulate temperature by turning it counterclockwise
(hot) or clockwise (cold). *Pretty standard. *Under the sink, I see
the two expected water lines that go to little shutoff valves which
lead into the wall. *I can't see into the walls, of course, but I
would assume that this faucet would be plumbed like anyone would
expect.

So there's some bizarre things that will happen.

Scenario 1:
I turn on the water, and what should be hot water (all the way
counterclockwise) is ice cold. *In fact, it is colder than the 'cold'
water by about 20 degrees. *Sometimes, if you reach over and flush the
toilet, it becomes scalding hot until the toilet stops running, then
resumes its ice coldness. *Sometimes flushing the toilet has no
effect. *Eventually the hot water heats up, and usually the faucet
acts like normal after that.

Scenario 2:
I turn on the water, and it is scalding hot, even if I turn the dial
all the way clockwise to make it cold. *However, it remains scalding
hot for about two minutes of constant running. *Usually it will return
to normal, but sometimes it will act as though the temps are
reversed- *hot becomes cold and cold becomes hot. *After several
minutes of running (and not touching the dial) the water becomes
lukewarm and then returns to its previous temp. *The faucet acts like
normal after that, with the hot and cold on the correct sides and with
proper control of the water.

Scenario 3:
The faucet will periodically 'just work' like any other straight
away. *Hot is hot, cold is cold, and there is no temperature shifting.

I know that apartments are known for water temp/pressure issues due to
many people using it at once. *However, this particular building I'm
in has only 8 units, and I can pretty much hear when anyone is using
water. *All three above scenarios happen at any given time of the day
between 6am and 3am. *There's no rhyme or reason other than one of the
three scenarios *always* happen.

Since it is an apartment, it can probably not be fixed. *But I am
truly baffled by all this. *Any ideas how this can happen?

thx
Other than the "ice cold water", all of your symptoms are commonly found
when a single valve faucet leaks internally between the hot and cold sides.
Variation in pressures will cause the hot water to leak into the cold pipe
at times. At other times the cold water will leak into the hot pipe. This
can continue throughout a house, so that other faucets will momentarily get
the wrong water temperature.

The solution is to correctly install a new cartridge or whatever the faucet
uses to control the water, unless there is a defect in the body in which
case replace the faucet. You can test this by turning off the water to only
one of the supply lines and disconnecting the line. You will get water out
of the faucet side of the disconnected line if the faucet leaks internally.
It may not leak in all positions of the handle but there would be a position
where it would leak without water coming out of the faucet itself.

Don Young

Don Young

In addition to a leaky cartridge there are other situations which can
allow cold & hot mixing in the pipes.
* - A shower head that has a shutoff on the head and someone left the
water faucets turned on with head turned off.
* - A janitors wash out sink where there is a garden hose with hand
sprayer attached and valves left open.
- A faulty washing machine valve.
- Portable dish washer where the water line is attached to the kitchen
sink faucet.
There may be others.

Another possibility is someone in another apartment has one of the
recirculation pumps installed to get hot water to their faucet
quickly. These are small pumps that sit under the sink and when
activated pump water from the hot line into the cold line until actual
hot water arrives, at which point they shut off. Or are supposed to
shut off at least.

Another possibility is someone in another apartment has one of the
recirculation pumps installed to get hot water to their faucet
quickly. These are small pumps that sit under the sink and when
activated pump water from the hot line into the cold line until actual
hot water arrives, at which point they shut off. Or are supposed to
shut off at least.

I think your thinking of an instahot (sp) witch is no more than a small
water heater.mounted under the sink or lavi. A hot water loop is a loop
that would start and finish at the main hot water tank . Basically it's a
pump that circulates the hot water to each fixture. It would be piped to
every sink feed by the hot water tank. Now there could be something wrong
with a check valve causing some sort of problem . If there is one water
heater all 8 unites then everyone should have the same problem.( could be a
dedicated WH) But what's interesting it happens between 6am and 3am
sometimes the recirculating pumps are controlled by a time clock so they
don't run all the time so I would guess 6am to 3am would be peck demand.

"phaeton" wrote in message
...
In my apartment's bathroom, there is a standard sink with a standard-
type Moen faucet. You lift up this oblong handle to open the water
valve(s), and you regulate temperature by turning it counterclockwise
(hot) or clockwise (cold). Pretty standard. Under the sink, I see
the two expected water lines that go to little shutoff valves which
lead into the wall. I can't see into the walls, of course, but I
would assume that this faucet would be plumbed like anyone would
expect.

So there's some bizarre things that will happen.

Scenario 1:
I turn on the water, and what should be hot water (all the way
counterclockwise) is ice cold. In fact, it is colder than the 'cold'
water by about 20 degrees. Sometimes, if you reach over and flush the
toilet, it becomes scalding hot until the toilet stops running, then
resumes its ice coldness. Sometimes flushing the toilet has no
effect. Eventually the hot water heats up, and usually the faucet
acts like normal after that.

Scenario 2:
I turn on the water, and it is scalding hot, even if I turn the dial
all the way clockwise to make it cold. However, it remains scalding
hot for about two minutes of constant running. Usually it will return
to normal, but sometimes it will act as though the temps are
reversed- hot becomes cold and cold becomes hot. After several
minutes of running (and not touching the dial) the water becomes
lukewarm and then returns to its previous temp. The faucet acts like
normal after that, with the hot and cold on the correct sides and with
proper control of the water.

Scenario 3:
The faucet will periodically 'just work' like any other straight
away. Hot is hot, cold is cold, and there is no temperature shifting.


I know that apartments are known for water temp/pressure issues due to
many people using it at once. However, this particular building I'm
in has only 8 units, and I can pretty much hear when anyone is using
water. All three above scenarios happen at any given time of the day
between 6am and 3am. There's no rhyme or reason other than one of the
three scenarios *always* happen.

Since it is an apartment, it can probably not be fixed. But I am
truly baffled by all this. Any ideas how this can happen?

thx

Another possibility scenario 2 The pipes are getting heating by outside
temps especially if run in attic or exterior wall. water will come out hot
when first turned on hot or cold then in a minute or two acts normal. If the
problem seems worse on a hot day that's the cause. My house dose that now.
If the hot water runs hot then cools, then the temp raises I would say
that's your problem. It's hard to say exactly without seeing the system . Do
you have your own water heater dedicated to your unite? If there is one hot
water source for the complex are others having the same problem? Is there a
hot water circulating system?