My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983. For
many years I used the local company which installed it for service.
They were pretty good until about 6 years ago when they were bought by
another company. Now I have little or no confidence in the people they
send.

The last time I had service the guy noticed a leak in a pipe leading to
the inside unit. It is in an upstairs utility room. It had been about
18 months since the last service. The leak was obvious because over
time it penetrated the pipe insulation. See picture below.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...-pump-leak.jpg

The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units.

"Wow, a leak! This is almost as good as a new unit sale!", thinks the
service guy. And he quotes me a repair price of about $1000 to fix it!

The repair would require extracting the freon to a recovery unit.
Cutting out and replacing the joint (or repair existing joint). Then
replacing the freon. Apparently this would be about a 2 hr. procedure
for someone who knew what they were doing.

I told him no. I thought the price was excessive plus I wouldn't trust
anyone this company has sent in the last few years to perform a repair
like this.

I got a recommendation from a neighbor for an HVAC tech they use who
was recommended to them by another neighbor. I'll probably use him in
the future. But I still want to avoid an expensive repair if possible.

Here's my $4 solution for your consideration - plumbing epoxy putty.
This stuff here from Home Depot.

http://www.pcepoxy.com/puttyepoxies/pcplumbing.asp

I would clean the pipe joint with alcohol then apply the putty to each
side of the joint to seal it.

Do you think this a viable repair method? I would really appreciate
your opinions since this newsgroup gives such great advice.

PS: If you would like to read something from an HVAC service guy who is
willing to admit exactly what happens in heat pump servicing (which is
almost as bad as appliance repair) you might want to check out the link
below.

http://toad.net/~jsmeenen/heatpump.html

let us know if the putty works,you didnt say what line is leaking,low or
high press... since epa regulated freon,it gave repairmen a lisence to
rape customers. none of them want to fix a leak anymore. just sell you a
new unit.lucas

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On May 2, 1:31*pm, wgd wrote:

snip

Here's my $4 solution for your consideration - plumbing epoxy putty.
This stuff here from Home Depot.

http://www.pcepoxy.com/puttyepoxies/pcplumbing.asp

I would clean the pipe joint with alcohol then apply the putty to each
side of the joint to seal it.

Do you think this a viable repair method? I would really appreciate
your opinions since this newsgroup gives such great advice.

Absolutely not. The thermal expansion differences in the epoxy and
copper make it dubious and your abiltiy to prepare a surface well
enough for a decent bond under field conditions is the coup de grace.
You're trying to contain gas molecules under considerable pressure so
get a tech well versed in this kind of work and get it done right. If
the tab is $300 or so for the job that would be OK. Maybe a bit more
in some communities. Good luck.

Joe

bubba's attitude proves my point about pompus hvac repairmen who
wont/cant fix a leak, just sell new equipment and then dont stand behind
it. they hate their job, and customers and live life cheating the
manufactrer and customers for their own mistakes .

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http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

On Fri, 2 May 2008 14:31:47 -0400, wgd wrote:

My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983....

The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units....

Separate from its physical condition, your system is twenty-five years
old and likely well past its economic life. The SEER ratings of
today's new units are double that of your current system, so your
cooling costs could very well be a lot higher than they need be --
ditto your heating costs. Depending upon local climate, your home's
heating and cooling loads and utility rates, it might make sense to
replace your system now, especially if those rates are steadily moving
upward.

Heat pumps have advanced considerably over the past twenty-five years
and in the last two to three years in particular. Again, you might
want to take advantage of those gains now, especially if your current
system is starting to show its age. Whatever you decide, good luck!

Cheers,
Paul

On May 2, 8:28*pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Fri, 2 May 2008 14:31:47 -0400, wgd wrote:
My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983....
The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units....



the epoxy probably will never work becasue the refrigerent is always
under pressure and will force its way out before the epoxy can set...

I would do one of two things

1) find a pro that will repair the leak for a resonable charge by
soldering or replacing that section,,,, you might want to check the
rest of the line to make sure the rest of it is not also corroded and
readay to go....

2) if the leak is slow enough say that it needs refilling once a year
or so...buy a set of hoses and adapters and learn how to refill the
system yourself... can you buy R22 these days?


Mark

"SteveB" toquerville,utah@zionvistas wrote in
:


"wgd" wrote in message
.net...
My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983. For
many years I used the local company which installed it for service.
They were pretty good until about 6 years ago when they were bought
by another company. Now I have little or no confidence in the people
they send.

The last time I had service the guy noticed a leak in a pipe leading
to the inside unit. It is in an upstairs utility room. It had been
about 18 months since the last service. The leak was obvious because
over time it penetrated the pipe insulation. See picture below.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...-pump-leak.jpg

The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump.
That's all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section
still have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units.

"Wow, a leak! This is almost as good as a new unit sale!", thinks the
service guy. And he quotes me a repair price of about $1000 to fix
it!

The repair would require extracting the freon to a recovery unit.
Cutting out and replacing the joint (or repair existing joint). Then
replacing the freon. Apparently this would be about a 2 hr. procedure
for someone who knew what they were doing.

I told him no. I thought the price was excessive plus I wouldn't
trust anyone this company has sent in the last few years to perform a
repair like this.

I got a recommendation from a neighbor for an HVAC tech they use who
was recommended to them by another neighbor. I'll probably use him in
the future. But I still want to avoid an expensive repair if
possible.

Here's my $4 solution for your consideration - plumbing epoxy putty.
This stuff here from Home Depot.

http://www.pcepoxy.com/puttyepoxies/pcplumbing.asp

I would clean the pipe joint with alcohol then apply the putty to
each side of the joint to seal it.

Do you think this a viable repair method? I would really appreciate
your opinions since this newsgroup gives such great advice.

PS: If you would like to read something from an HVAC service guy who
is willing to admit exactly what happens in heat pump servicing
(which is almost as bad as appliance repair) you might want to check
out the link below.

http://toad.net/~jsmeenen/heatpump.html

A 1983 heat pump is the equivalent of a 94 year old person. If it is
still living, it is one of the exceptional ones.

Figure it like this. (And I speak from experience.) You can throw
money down the toilet on this unit, or just get a new one. The higher
SEER ratings on the new one will save you a lot on energy costs. You
won't be paying someone to come out and fix various things on this
one. It's all the same age ........ compressor ......... fan motors
......... capacitors ....... etc, etc, etc. You fix this one week,
and that the next week.

As with any 94 year old, you need to pull the plug sometime,
uncomfortable as it is. Or just keep paying for a quality of life or
service that doesn't amount to much.

Steve




Something like this Steve?

The cost of replacing now is $3000 (I have no idea. Just pulled a number
out of my a..,errr,...hat). The cost to repair the existing one is say
$300. In 4 months another repair for say $350. 9-12 months from now it's
diagnosed as terminal and you decide to bite the bullet.

$3000 Replacement cost today
$ 300 1st Repair
$ 250 2nd repair @ 4 mos.
$ 100 Service call when diagnosed as terminal @ 12 mos.
$ 250 Price increase of replacement cost 12 months from now
$ 300 Aditional 12 month cost for electricity due to low SEER and age
inefficiency

$4200 Cost to do in a year,

"wgd" wrote in message
.net...
My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983. For
many years I used the local company which installed it for service.
They were pretty good until about 6 years ago when they were bought by
another company. Now I have little or no confidence in the people they
send.

The last time I had service the guy noticed a leak in a pipe leading to
the inside unit. It is in an upstairs utility room. It had been about
18 months since the last service. The leak was obvious because over
time it penetrated the pipe insulation. See picture below.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...-pump-leak.jpg

The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units.

"Wow, a leak! This is almost as good as a new unit sale!", thinks the
service guy. And he quotes me a repair price of about $1000 to fix it!

The repair would require extracting the freon to a recovery unit.
Cutting out and replacing the joint (or repair existing joint). Then
replacing the freon. Apparently this would be about a 2 hr. procedure
for someone who knew what they were doing.

I told him no. I thought the price was excessive plus I wouldn't trust
anyone this company has sent in the last few years to perform a repair
like this.

I got a recommendation from a neighbor for an HVAC tech they use who
was recommended to them by another neighbor. I'll probably use him in
the future. But I still want to avoid an expensive repair if possible.

Here's my $4 solution for your consideration - plumbing epoxy putty.
This stuff here from Home Depot.

http://www.pcepoxy.com/puttyepoxies/pcplumbing.asp

I would clean the pipe joint with alcohol then apply the putty to each
side of the joint to seal it.

Do you think this a viable repair method? I would really appreciate
your opinions since this newsgroup gives such great advice.

PS: If you would like to read something from an HVAC service guy who is
willing to admit exactly what happens in heat pump servicing (which is
almost as bad as appliance repair) you might want to check out the link
below.

http://toad.net/~jsmeenen/heatpump.html

A 1983 heat pump is the equivalent of a 94 year old person. If it is still
living, it is one of the exceptional ones.

Figure it like this. (And I speak from experience.) You can throw money
down the toilet on this unit, or just get a new one. The higher SEER
ratings on the new one will save you a lot on energy costs. You won't be
paying someone to come out and fix various things on this one. It's all the
same age ........ compressor ......... fan motors ......... capacitors
........ etc, etc, etc. You fix this one week, and that the next week.

As with any 94 year old, you need to pull the plug sometime, uncomfortable
as it is. Or just keep paying for a quality of life or service that doesn't
amount to much.

Steve

Bubba wrote:

By the way, nothings free and nothings cheap anymore. If you think the
HVAC guys are ripping you off, try starting your own HVAC business.

Or buy a few $80 window ACs at WalMart. If one breaks, throw it away,
and ignore the HVAC criminals :-)

Nick

On Fri, 02 May 2008 21:28:08 -0300, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:

On Fri, 2 May 2008 14:31:47 -0400, wgd wrote:

My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983....

The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units....

Separate from its physical condition, your system is twenty-five years
old and likely well past its economic life. The SEER ratings of
today's new units are double that of your current system, so your
cooling costs could very well be a lot higher than they need be --
ditto your heating costs. Depending upon local climate, your home's
heating and cooling loads and utility rates, it might make sense to
replace your system now, especially if those rates are steadily moving
upward.

Heat pumps have advanced considerably over the past twenty-five years
and in the last two to three years in particular. Again, you might
want to take advantage of those gains now, especially if your current
system is starting to show its age. Whatever you decide, good luck!

Just to expand on my previous point. I don't know what you pay in
heating and cooling costs now, but for argument's sake I'm going to
assume it's something in the range of $1,200.00 a year. If a new heat
pump can cut those costs in half (and a 50 per cent reduction is the
bare minimum I would expect compared to a twenty-five year old
system), your savings are $600.00 a year.

If the cost of the replacement heat pump is $5,000.00, say, and your
first year savings are $600.00, you will have earned a 12 per cent
return on your investment. Furthermore, if electricity rates increase
at a higher rate than either your cost of borrowing or the return you
earn on your other investments, your financial gain continues to
improve over time. Also bear in mind that you pay for electricity
with after tax dollars, so the $600.00 you spend on additional
utilities represents perhaps $800.00 or $900.00 in pre-tax income.
And unlike other cash generating investments, your savings in utility
costs are not taxable -- this money is all yours to keep or spend as
you wish.

Going forward, I expect electricity costs to move sharply higher and
an investment like this greatly lessens your exposure to this upside
risk. In addition, as someone else pointed out earlier, delaying your
purchase by one or more years could hurt you badly -- copper prices
have shot through the roof and so too freight and all the other
expenses of running a business. These cost increases far exceed the
rate of inflation and are ultimately borne by the consumer.

If the numbers I've used above are fairly representative and you delay
your purchase by just TWO years, your additional out-of-pocket
expenses could exceed two thousand dollars. For example:

1) forfeited electricity savings: $636.00 + $674.00 = $1,310.00
(assumes a 6% increase in years one and two)

2) equipment and labour increases: $400.00 + $432.00 = $832.00
(assumes an 8 per cent increase in years one and two)

The combined two-year loss in this example is $2,142.00 and that
number doesn't include the cost of any future repairs.

You say the service guy just wants to sell you a new system,
presumably in your mind because he wants to make a quick or easy buck.
Well, I can't speak to this individual's motivations, but I can tell
you that keeping your current system could very well cost you a lot
more than you realize and that rather than dismissing his advice
outright, you should explore all options. As a final note, there are
members of this group who are far more knowledgeable about these
systems than me and would be happy to offer their own two cents; but
please don't assume they're steering you in one direction or the other
simply because of some hidden or ulterior motive. Again, good luck!

Cheers,
Paul

To make it simple and to save you money all they need to do is the
following:
1. Have them pump down the system.
2. After the system has been pumped down they can now open and repair the
leak on the suction line.
3. After leak has been repairs and leaked checked they only have to run a
short vacuum on the line set.
4. They then open up the line set to the refrigerant they had pumped down.
5. Top off the system.


--
Moe Jones
http://www.MoeJones.info

bubba's attitude makes my point for me. who here would actually hire him
?

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http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

Bubba may have come on strong, but he is right on the money. Putting
money into this obsolete system is like asking an auto mechanic to do
a "quick" valve job on a car with 350,000 miles on the odometer.
You've gotten your money out of this unit. It's time to move on.

You really need to understand this part of the picture--leaks in an
A/C system don't just happen out of the clear blue. They happen when
components wear out. If you have a leak in a line, you've got a worn
out line--period.

Ok, so you don't like the current service guy. We get that. And the
price he gave you is crazy. So he's really telling you he doesn't want
to fix your old system. He's in a lose/lose situation. If he fixes it
and recharges it, it's just going to leak some other place and you'll
be complaining that his fix didn't last. You didn't like his advice.
You didn't like Bubba's advice. Other guys have demonstrated that
you're wasting money by repairing your old system. You don't like
their advice and you're still ragging on Bubba--all of which proves
that YOU'RE the one with the attitude problem.

You came here for advice. You got it. Either find some hack who will
patch a 25 year old worn out system for cheap, or buy a new unit. But
quit UR bitching.

Rick-Meister wrote:

Bubba may have come on strong, but he is right on the money. Putting
money into this obsolete system is like asking an auto mechanic to do
a "quick" valve job on a car with 350,000 miles on the odometer.
You've gotten your money out of this unit. It's time to move on.

You really need to understand this part of the picture--leaks in an
A/C system don't just happen out of the clear blue. They happen when
components wear out. If you have a leak in a line, you've got a worn
out line--period.

Ok, so you don't like the current service guy. We get that. And the
price he gave you is crazy. So he's really telling you he doesn't want
to fix your old system. He's in a lose/lose situation. If he fixes it
and recharges it, it's just going to leak some other place and you'll
be complaining that his fix didn't last. You didn't like his advice.
You didn't like Bubba's advice. Other guys have demonstrated that
you're wasting money by repairing your old system. You don't like
their advice and you're still ragging on Bubba--all of which proves
that YOU'RE the one with the attitude problem.

You came here for advice. You got it. Either find some hack who will
patch a 25 year old worn out system for cheap, or buy a new unit. But
quit UR bitching.

Hear, Hear!

"
The last time I had service the guy noticed a leak in a pipe leading to
the inside unit. It is in an upstairs utility room. It had been about
18 months since the last service. The leak was obvious because over
time it penetrated the pipe insulation. See picture below.

Huh?

What is supposed to be leaking?

Is the unit still heating and cooling property? When the "service" was
done, did the guy measure the high and low side pressures? Did he add any
freon (R-22)?

Is the repair guy claiming that the "wet" stuff in the photo is compressor
oil? Or is it just a little water the condensed onto the suction line
when you were cooling the house?


...

I got a recommendation from a neighbor for an HVAC tech they use who
was recommended to them by another neighbor. I'll probably use him in
the future. But I still want to avoid an expensive repair if possible.

I strongly suggest that you call in the HVAC tech who was recommended by the
neighbor. Get a second opinion and a 2nd bid.

Again, you didn't say why the service call was necessary. Was the unit not
heating/cooling as you have come to expect. Did the tech add any freon?

And I wonder about your wording. If a tech finds low levels of freon
(R-22) then he FINDS a leak rather than NOTICES a leak. It's sound like
when you take your car in for an oil change the tech "notices" that you need
new belts, etc.

If there is defintiely a leak rather the condensation from the insulation
not being properly placed the the $1000 is a "little" high, IMO but $500
would be in the ball park for a half day of work plus freon, etc.



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