Just curious if there have been any studies or experiments on energy
used by a water tank set to high, compared to medium. I am just
trying to get a feel, if its worth keeping it at medium, to save on
the heating bill. If it's a matter of $50 more per year in heating,
that is not a big deal. I know that no one can tell me a dollar
about, for our place of living (Ontario Canada), but maybe a percent
savings would be useful information.

Insulating the tank, I doubt would help much. It already has
insulation inside, and it does not even feel warm to the touch of my
hand. Thanks.

p.s. we have Natural gas heated.

"lbbss" wrote in message
...
Just curious if there have been any studies or experiments on energy
used by a water tank set to high, compared to medium. I am just
trying to get a feel, if its worth keeping it at medium, to save on
the heating bill. If it's a matter of $50 more per year in heating,
that is not a big deal. I know that no one can tell me a dollar
about, for our place of living (Ontario Canada), but maybe a percent
savings would be useful information.

Insulating the tank, I doubt would help much. It already has
insulation inside, and it does not even feel warm to the touch of my
hand. Thanks.

p.s. we have Natural gas heated.


There are a couple of factors to consider. First, you have to realize heat
is always moving to a cooler place. The greater the temperature
differential, the faster it moves so increasing the temperature will move
the heat more.

Next, is it really waste? If the water heater is in the garage or outdoor
shed, the heat may be wasted. Since the heater is in your house, as long as
you are heating the house anyway, no heat is wasted. It is just one source
that adds heat, right along with your furnace, cooking range, light bulbs,
etc. OTOH, in the summer if you are paying to cool the house, it is a
waste.

Next consideration is personal comfort and how you use the water. Some codes
have a maximum temperature so as to prevent scalding. This is especially
helpful with young children or the elderly but you can also put anti-scald
devices in the shower. Keeping the water hotter means you blend in less
taking a shower so more is save for the next person or three behind you.
Dishwashers tend to work better with hotter water also and most have
boosters for that reason.

I can't give a good guess at cost differences, but I keep mine where I like
the temperature to be.

Yes you'll save though it will be less than if your take is a a high
efficiency [at least 2" insulated walls].

I don't remember the exact % but in my own case with a 40 gal high
efficiency tank it was worth it to put it on a lower temp setting. [I live
in central Illinois]

All of my home hot water pipes are also insulated.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"lbbss" wrote in message
...
Just curious if there have been any studies or experiments on energy
used by a water tank set to high, compared to medium. I am just
trying to get a feel, if its worth keeping it at medium, to save on
the heating bill. If it's a matter of $50 more per year in heating,
that is not a big deal. I know that no one can tell me a dollar
about, for our place of living (Ontario Canada), but maybe a percent
savings would be useful information.

Insulating the tank, I doubt would help much. It already has
insulation inside, and it does not even feel warm to the touch of my
hand. Thanks.

p.s. we have Natural gas heated.


There are a couple of factors to consider. First, you have to realize heat
is always moving to a cooler place. The greater the temperature
differential, the faster it moves so increasing the temperature will move
the heat more.

Next, is it really waste? If the water heater is in the garage or outdoor
shed, the heat may be wasted. Since the heater is in your house, as long
as you are heating the house anyway, no heat is wasted. It is just one
source that adds heat, right along with your furnace, cooking range, light
bulbs, etc. OTOH, in the summer if you are paying to cool the house, it
is a waste.

Next consideration is personal comfort and how you use the water. Some
codes have a maximum temperature so as to prevent scalding. This is
especially helpful with young children or the elderly but you can also put
anti-scald devices in the shower. Keeping the water hotter means you
blend in less taking a shower so more is save for the next person or three
behind you. Dishwashers tend to work better with hotter water also and
most have boosters for that reason.

I can't give a good guess at cost differences, but I keep mine where I
like the temperature to be.

On Mar 31, 8:40*pm, lbbss wrote:
Just curious if there have been any studies or experiments on energy
used by a water tank set to high, compared to medium. * I am just
trying to get a feel, if its worth keeping it at medium, to save on
the heating bill. * If it's a matter of $50 more per year in heating,
that is not a big deal. * I know that no one can tell me a dollar
about, for our place of living (Ontario Canada), but maybe a percent
savings would be useful information.

Insulating the tank, I doubt would help much. * It already has
insulation inside, and it does not even feel warm to the touch of my
hand. * * Thanks.

p.s. we have Natural gas heated.

Of course its a WASTE, 20% goes up the flue , or chimney, Research "
Energy Factor" Tanks waste about 20% up the flue, tankless dont....

On Apr 1, 9:25*am, "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
"lbbss" wrote in message

...

Just curious if there have been any studies or experiments on energy
used by a water tank set to high, compared to medium. * I am just
trying to get a feel, if its worth keeping it at medium, to save on
the heating bill. * If it's a matter of $50 more per year in heating,
that is not a big deal. * I know that no one can tell me a dollar
about, for our place of living (Ontario Canada), but maybe a percent
savings would be useful information.

Insulating the tank, I doubt would help much. * It already has
insulation inside, and it does not even feel warm to the touch of my
hand. * * Thanks.

p.s. we have Natural gas heated.

* * To add a little to what Ed said. *First during the cooling season that
extra heat entering your home is not only a waste from the point of burring
extra fuel, but it also has to be removed, so you are going to pay twice for
having the heater turn up. *Second, you are also shortening the life of the
water heater.

* * I would certainly consider the point of safety. *You really don't want
that water hotter than it needs to be. *With one exception having the
temperature turned down is a total win. *That one is the possibility of
capacity when you are using more hot water than can be heated with your
heater over a short time.

* * The decision would be based on why you might want the temperature higher


I agree, that's the main issue. Dishwashers need about 130. Beyond
that, the only advantage I see is that once it's mixed down to desired
temp at faucet, you get a larger reserve of hot water out of the same
size tank. If you're talking about a 20-30 deg temp diff, I would
think for a typical gas WH, the $50 a year guestimate of cost savings
might be in the ball park. Whatever the diff, it would be less with
an electric, because you don't have the loss up the center flue.





and likely a larger higher efficient water heater would save you money and
provide all the hot water you want.

--
Joseph Meehan

*Dia 's Muire duit

On Apr 1, 9:32*am, wrote:
On Apr 1, 9:25*am, "Joseph Meehan" wrote:





"lbbss" wrote in message

...

Just curious if there have been any studies or experiments on energy
used by a water tank set to high, compared to medium. * I am just
trying to get a feel, if its worth keeping it at medium, to save on
the heating bill. * If it's a matter of $50 more per year in heating,
that is not a big deal. * I know that no one can tell me a dollar
about, for our place of living (Ontario Canada), but maybe a percent
savings would be useful information.

Insulating the tank, I doubt would help much. * It already has
insulation inside, and it does not even feel warm to the touch of my
hand. * * Thanks.

p.s. we have Natural gas heated.

* * To add a little to what Ed said. *First during the cooling season that
extra heat entering your home is not only a waste from the point of burring
extra fuel, but it also has to be removed, so you are going to pay twice for
having the heater turn up. *Second, you are also shortening the life of the
water heater.

* * I would certainly consider the point of safety. *You really don't want
that water hotter than it needs to be. *With one exception having the
temperature turned down is a total win. *That one is the possibility of
capacity when you are using more hot water than can be heated with your
heater over a short time.

* * The decision would be based on why you might want the temperature higher

I agree, that's the main issue. * Dishwashers need about 130. *Beyond
that, the only advantage I see is that once it's mixed down to desired
temp at faucet, you get a larger reserve of hot water out of the same
size tank. * If you're talking about a 20-30 deg temp diff, I would
think for a typical gas WH, the $50 a year guestimate of cost savings
might be in the ball park. * Whatever the diff, it would be less with
an electric, because you don't have the loss up the center flue.



and likely a larger higher efficient water heater would save you money and
provide all the hot water you want.

--
Joseph Meehan

*Dia 's Muire duit- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

as someone else said, most of the waste heat in a gas heater is up the
flue so yes it saves to turn it down.

also it saves becasue the tank will LAST LONGER.

I set mine heater down as low as I could where I need to set the
shower valve to full hot to still get a good hot shower...

Mark

On Mar 31, 9:52�pm, ransley wrote:
On Mar 31, 8:40�pm, lbbss wrote:



Of course its a WASTE, 20% goes up the flue , or chimney, Research "
Energy Factor" �Tanks waste about 20% up the flue, tankless dont.....

please provide a link to 20% up the flue.

...If it's a matter of $50 more per year in heating,
that is not a big deal...


Actually $50 *is* a big deal! When saving money, it is the little things
what add up to big savings over the period of a year.

Energy is especially this way. There is not usually any one thing you can do
to save a lot money, but a lot of little things, which when done, will add
up to a big savings.

The thing with a water heater is showers/baths. When there is hot water,
less water from the water heater is used and more cold water is mixed in
with the shower water. This leaves some hot water for the next person to
take a shower. If the water was set to warm, you might adjust the valves to
only "hot water" and no cold water, draining the water heater of all of its
warm water. Then next person gets cold water!

So experiment and see how low you can go so everyone in the house can still
get a warm shower. It takes time to heat up water.

Then beyond that, use less hot water. Do dishes by hand, wash clothes in
cold water, get a valve on the shower to stop the water flow while you are
soaping up, etc.

Also work on saving energy in your home. Add more insulation, get new Energy
Star appliances, seal air leaks, etc. Tons of energy saving tips here...
http://www.energystar.gov

On Apr 1, 10:12*am, "Bill" wrote:

Then beyond that, use less hot water. Do dishes by hand, wash clothes in
cold water, get a valve on the shower to stop the water flow while you are
soaping up, etc.

Sorry, I'd use up more hot water doing dishes by hand than by using
the
dishwasher. Trust me on this one; I've done dishes both ways.

Cindy Hamilton

On Apr 1, 10:25*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On Apr 1, 10:12*am, "Bill" wrote:

Then beyond that, use less hot water. Do dishes by hand, wash clothes in
cold water, get a valve on the shower to stop the water flow while you are
soaping up, etc.

Sorry, I'd use up more hot water doing dishes by hand than by using
the
dishwasher. *Trust me on this one; I've done dishes both ways.

Cindy Hamilton

Yes, I agree and I think most people would use more water hand washing
compared to recent vintage dishwashers. You could argue that if you
were real careful about trying to save water by hand washing them, it
would use less. But for the typical person doing them in a typical
fashion, I bet they use more water than the dishwasher

On Apr 1, 10:25*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On Apr 1, 10:12*am, "Bill" wrote:

Then beyond that, use less hot water. Do dishes by hand, wash clothes in
cold water, get a valve on the shower to stop the water flow while you are
soaping up, etc.

Sorry, I'd use up more hot water doing dishes by hand than by using
the
dishwasher. *Trust me on this one; I've done dishes both ways.

Cindy Hamilton

that's what all the articles say too.

On Apr 1, 11:02*am, wrote:
On Apr 1, 10:25*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Apr 1, 10:12*am, "Bill" wrote:

Then beyond that, use less hot water. Do dishes by hand, wash clothes in
cold water, get a valve on the shower to stop the water flow while you are
soaping up, etc.

Sorry, I'd use up more hot water doing dishes by hand than by using
the
dishwasher. *Trust me on this one; I've done dishes both ways.

Cindy Hamilton

Yes, I agree and I think most people would use more water hand washing
compared to recent vintage dishwashers. *You could argue that if you
were real careful about trying to save water by hand washing them, it
would use less. * But for the typical person doing them in a typical
fashion, I bet they use more water than the dishwasher

you can save a lot of dishwashing water if you have a dog.

On Mar 31, 9:40*pm, lbbss wrote:
Just curious if there have been any studies or experiments on energy
used by a water tank set to high, compared to medium. * I am just
trying to get a feel, if its worth keeping it at medium, to save on
the heating bill. * If it's a matter of $50 more per year in heating,
that is not a big deal. * I know that no one can tell me a dollar
about, for our place of living (Ontario Canada), but maybe a percent
savings would be useful information.

Insulating the tank, I doubt would help much. * It already has
insulation inside, and it does not even feel warm to the touch of my
hand. * * Thanks.

p.s. we have Natural gas heated.

the "rule of thumb" quoted all over is that for every 10 degrees (6
degrees C for canucks, eh) there's a change of 4% in the not water
energy use. I would imagine that's very much a "your mileage may
differ" item.

like everybody says, your waste heat will be up the flue; you will
also waste heat warming up the pipes from the heater to your taps to a
higher temp then letting them cool down. as people have said, if it's
a space that you heat, then it's not waste in the winter, if it's a
space that you cool, then it will be double waste heat in the summer.
most people's basement, doesn't matter. but, if as you say the tank
isn't warm to the touch, then by definition it's not wasting heat just
sitting there. not surprising with current tanks.

of course, the question is then, why do you want/need the hotter
water? again by definition, any water hotter than you want/need is a
waste.

that thing about scalding isn't kidding, though. they provide heaters
with a detent these days in the middle of the temp, at 120 degrees and
supposedly that's where they're set from the factory. Scalding is very
nonlinear; according to the tables published all over, at 120 degrees
it takes 10 minutes to get scalded; at 140 degrees, 6 seconds; at 150
degrees, 2 seconds. An elderly friend of my parents got a fancy new
single lever shower, climbed in, couldn't figure it out quickly
enough, got seriously scalded within seconds, and then came the
inevitable hospitalization, pneumonia, death.

On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 12:58:59 -0700 (PDT), z
wrote:

you can save a lot of dishwashing water if you have a dog.

Works for us!!!