Here's what I'd like to do:

Run well water through a geothermal heat exchanger and then discharge the
same water into the yard and eventually into a pond.

I prefer not to go underground and below frost depth with discharge pipe.

I would like to simply have water discharge above ground. How can this
be done without discharge pipe freezing?

My first thought is a antisyphon device similar to what's on outdoor
spigots.

Discharge pipe is 1".

franz fripplfrappl wrote:
Here's what I'd like to do:

Run well water through a geothermal heat exchanger and then discharge the
same water into the yard and eventually into a pond.

I prefer not to go underground and below frost depth with discharge pipe.

I would like to simply have water discharge above ground. How can this
be done without discharge pipe freezing?

My first thought is a antisyphon device similar to what's on outdoor
spigots.

Discharge pipe is 1".


If it gets cold enough, it'll freeze. What you propose is basically the
same as a fountain or backyard water feature. The running water will
slow down the freezing action, but the outlet hole will keep getting
smaller, and eventually get blocked. The pool dealer down the road has a
fountain out front, and dumps blue dye in the water each fall when it
starts getting cold. After a couple weeks, he has a huge ice sculpture,
and no more running water. Even if you can keep the outlet and exposed
pipe from freezing solid and splitting, the water WILL stop flowing at
some point, and your yard will be a mass of ice.

Just out of curiosity, what are you trying to do with the water? And
what is the heat exchanger for? Ground water is going to be at the same
temp as the below-frostline dirt in the first place, isn't it? Or do you
have a hot spring under your house?

aem sends, curiously....

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:42:33 +0000, aemeijers wrote:

franz fripplfrappl wrote:
Here's what I'd like to do:

Run well water through a geothermal heat exchanger and then discharge
the same water into the yard and eventually into a pond.

I prefer not to go underground and below frost depth with discharge
pipe.

I would like to simply have water discharge above ground. How can this
be done without discharge pipe freezing?

My first thought is a antisyphon device similar to what's on outdoor
spigots.

Discharge pipe is 1".


If it gets cold enough, it'll freeze. What you propose is basically the
same as a fountain or backyard water feature. The running water will
slow down the freezing action, but the outlet hole will keep getting
smaller, and eventually get blocked. The pool dealer down the road has a
fountain out front, and dumps blue dye in the water each fall when it
starts getting cold. After a couple weeks, he has a huge ice sculpture,
and no more running water. Even if you can keep the outlet and exposed
pipe from freezing solid and splitting, the water WILL stop flowing at
some point, and your yard will be a mass of ice.

Just out of curiosity, what are you trying to do with the water? And
what is the heat exchanger for? Ground water is going to be at the same
temp as the below-frostline dirt in the first place, isn't it? Or do you
have a hot spring under your house?

aem sends, curiously....



Thanks.

We're using well water in an open loop geothermal installation. Water
goes through a heat exchanger which transfers it to fluid circulating
through radiant tubing. Will also heat domestic water with the same.
Once heat is extracted from well water, it has nowhere to go than into
the pond.

I know, I know, it seems incredible to extract heat from something cold,
but it does work. I once had a heat pump water heater and it did just
that. It took ambient air temperature, extracted the heat and
transferred the heat to the water. The downside of this system was it
also chilled the basement air. On the other hand, in summer it cooled
the basement as well as dehumidified.

Geothermal is the way to go for heat.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:00:46 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:01:13 GMT, franz fripplfrappl
wrote:

Here's what I'd like to do:

Run well water through a geothermal heat exchanger and then discharge
the same water into the yard and eventually into a pond.

I prefer not to go underground and below frost depth with discharge
pipe.

I would like to simply have water discharge above ground. How can this
be done without discharge pipe freezing?

My first thought is a antisyphon device similar to what's on outdoor
spigots.

Discharge pipe is 1".

If you really think water is valuable you should be putting it back
where it came from after you have sucked out some of the heat.

Thanks for opinion. Unfortunately DNR does not permit open loop
geothermal systems which go from one well and discharge into another.
This makes sense for conserving water but DNR is afraid of
contamination. Can't figure out how a "sealed" well system can get
contaminated.

On 2008-02-18, franz fripplfrappl wrote:

I would like to simply have water discharge above ground. How can this
be done without discharge pipe freezing?

When the exterior air temperature is below freezing, will the
discharge be running constantly? And what is the discharge
temperature of the water?

If the water is running constantly, then depending on the discharge
temperature, flow rate and heat loss of the discharge pipe, the water
won't freeze. Unlike a circulating pond, which has no outside source
of heat except the pump motor, this discharge pipe will constantly be
fed with warmer than ambient water.

Even if the water flow isn't constant, it is possible that if you
empty the pipe when the discharge stops, then whatever ice forms near
the outlet will be melt by the next discharge cycle. Again, it
depends on the balance of heat flows.

Cheers, Wayne

"franz fripplfrappl" wrote in message
...
Here's what I'd like to do:

Run well water through a geothermal heat exchanger and then discharge the
same water into the yard and eventually into a pond.

I prefer not to go underground and below frost depth with discharge pipe.

I would like to simply have water discharge above ground. How can this
be done without discharge pipe freezing?

Discharging water to the yard in freezing weather sounds like a potential
problem. I visualize ice dams, backups into basements, kids and dogs sliding
on the ice into the pond and they system backing up leaving you with no
heat.

How much water are you talking about?

"franz fripplfrappl" wrote in message
Can't figure out how a "sealed" well system can get
contaminated.

You can't? You said in another post:
"We're using well water in an open loop geothermal installation. Water
goes through a heat exchanger which transfers it to fluid circulating
through radiant tubing."

What is circulating through the radiant tubing? Eventually, that water or
water plus chemical will leak into the system when the heat exchanger goes
bad. It may be one year, five years, twenty five years, but it will happen.

Franz,

Assuming the pond does not freeze solid, why not pipe your cold well
water directly to the pond. I don't understand why you want to dump the
water in your yard.
I'd also be concerned about eventually draining your aquifer or other
water source. I thought folks put the heat exchanger down in the well rather
than pump the water around.

Dave M.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:56:02 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

Franz,

Assuming the pond does not freeze solid, why not pipe your cold well
water directly to the pond. I don't understand why you want to dump the
water in your yard.
I'd also be concerned about eventually draining your aquifer or other
water source. I thought folks put the heat exchanger down in the well
rather than pump the water around.

Dave M.

The pond is 200 feet from building. If it works, I'd like to discharge
water into a small water feature/stream which eventually leads to pond.
Cheaper than trenching and laying pipe.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:52:40 GMT, franz fripplfrappl
wrote:



Thanks.

We're using well water in an open loop geothermal installation. Water
goes through a heat exchanger which transfers it to fluid circulating
through radiant tubing. Will also heat domestic water with the same.
Once heat is extracted from well water, it has nowhere to go than into
the pond.

Ah, ha. I thought you were trying to warm the well water. Letting it
then cool off seemed strange.

I know, I know, it seems incredible to extract heat from something cold,
but it does work. I once had a heat pump water heater and it did just
that. It took ambient air temperature, extracted the heat and
transferred the heat to the water. The downside of this system was it
also chilled the basement air. On the other hand, in summer it cooled
the basement as well as dehumidified.

Geothermal is the way to go for heat.

franz fripplfrappl wrote in
:

Here's what I'd like to do:

Run well water through a geothermal heat exchanger and then discharge
the same water into the yard and eventually into a pond.

I prefer not to go underground and below frost depth with discharge
pipe.

I would like to simply have water discharge above ground. How can
this be done without discharge pipe freezing?

My first thought is a antisyphon device similar to what's on outdoor
spigots.

Discharge pipe is 1".


I assume you intend to run a pipe all the way to the pond above ground.

If the pipe does freeze it likely can't be thawed until spring so you
would need a backup system or you would have no geothermal heat or a huge
mess wherever the discharge ended up. Potential for very expensive damage
both within the house and outside of the house is very high without a
backup system. Note backup must be totally independent of the first
system or it would just fail same as the first system. Designing for cold
system water flow is a huge engineering challenge. A foolproof system
would cost a lot more than just burying the pipe in the first place.

You would have to insulate the pipe no matter what or it would freeze if
you get cold like we get.

Could you run the flow into a pipe that was large enough to flow under
gravity alone? 3 or 4 inch should do it if you have a reasonable slope.
Design this so that it would drain empty between cycles and the heat
trace could be routed into the pipe from the top - maybe from the top of
a tee that was a few feet long to prevent overflow. Then the heat trace
would only have to heat the inside of the pipe and not the outside air.

The geothermal system lowers the temp of the discharge water as it sucks
the heat out of it and so you have very little heat left in the
discharge. The installer set my geothermal system flows so that the
discharge water was at 38 F which gives a bit of safety factor against
freezing within the heat exchanger. It leaves a very poor safety factor
against freezing in a surface discharge pipe.

If the water cools to freezing temp before it reaches the end of the pipe
it becomes frazil ice - small super-cooled ice crystals - that
consolidate into solid ice almost instantly and in difficult to predict
locations. the system could seem to run fine for a while and then on a
cold night it could instantly solidify.

Use PE pipe because it won't split if it does freeze.

Your perfect solution, but very expensive is insulated PE pipe that has
heat trace inside the insulation already and could run a a pressure
discharge. Last time I looked, many years ago, the cost was $5 to $15 per
foot. There are many water systems up north using this pipe and most are
barely buried or are buried within permafrost.

How would you keep the pond from overflowing or the ice buildup from
getting out of hand?

It gets very cold up here in central Canada and I have seen some water
pipes that were left running all winter to keep them from freezing. Only
works if the huge ice pile that results can be located where it does no
harm. very expensive to waste that much water. In your case running the
well pump all winter would only cost a couple of hundred dollars extra
over letting it just cycle when the house thermostat calls for heat.